Pathfinder Is Still Bad

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

Let me tell you about Feats. A specific Feat. A Specific Feat from Paizo’s Ultimate Combat for Pathfinder.

This Feat is Prone Shooter. Let me tell you what Prone Shooter does.

It puts you into the mindset of The Prone Shooter. You go prone, you lie prone, you are thinking “I am a Prone Shooter” and you shoot with all the clarity Prone gives to the Prone Shooter.

Your buddy glances at your character sheet. He sees “Prone Shooter”, he knows "damn, that guy, he is a Prone Shooter, I better watch out when he falls prone, he still shoots!"


Yeah, that’s damn right, it’s On Your Character Sheet.

You didn’t even need to say anything, that’s real roleplaying right there, it’s dialog without dialog like a gritty western, very thematic.


Sure, you might have imitators, that guy over there might also be prone and shooting, but you know what? He’s just prone and shooting, he’s not a Prone Shooter, it’s not on his character sheet. What he does is mundane. What you do, it’s a heroic FEAT.

For roleplaying immersion, it’s a world of difference. But some min/maxing goon wouldn’t understand (kick them out of your table, IMMEDIATELY or they turn your campaign into an Videogame)

Image

Because as you can see, in Pathfinder, being Prone doesn’t actually affect your crossbow shooting at all.[/b]
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Post by Libertad »

You know, the whole "feats for every circumstance" thing would work... if you had dozens of feats to spend.

Even in Pathfinder, you get 10 feats tops, and many of them aren't as versatile as spells. Plus not suffering a penalty for lying prone is so circumstantial that it doesn't really affect your combat ability much. If you're prone, you're less mobile. You'd only fight prone if you're camouflaged on a faraway ledge and nobody's nearby to melee, something not very useful in cramped dungeon environs.

If you have only a limited number of feats, then the feats need to be more versatile and have more effects. +2 on Hide and Move Silently pales in comparison to Greater Invisibility and Silence, spells that Wizards can learn from spellbooks without having to wait another level. Feats need to be either more plentiful or more versatile.
Last edited by Libertad on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

You know, one of my fondest hopes was that 5E D&D would end this Pathfinder nonsense once and for all, but seriously, I think that Pathfinder has a shot of being the sole legitimate claimant to the D&D throne once it outlasts 5E D&D for a couple of years.

Isn't that some sad shit?
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

OgreBattle wrote:Let me tell you about Feats. A specific Feat. A Specific Feat from Paizo’s Ultimate Combat for Pathfinder.

This Feat is Prone Shooter. Let me tell you what Prone Shooter does.

It puts you into the mindset of The Prone Shooter. You go prone, you lie prone, you are thinking “I am a Prone Shooter” and you shoot with all the clarity Prone gives to the Prone Shooter.

Your buddy glances at your character sheet. He sees “Prone Shooter”, he knows "damn, that guy, he is a Prone Shooter, I better watch out when he falls prone, he still shoots!"


Yeah, that’s damn right, it’s On Your Character Sheet.

You didn’t even need to say anything, that’s real roleplaying right there, it’s dialog without dialog like a gritty western, very thematic.


Sure, you might have imitators, that guy over there might also be prone and shooting, but you know what? He’s just prone and shooting, he’s not a Prone Shooter, it’s not on his character sheet. What he does is mundane. What you do, it’s a heroic FEAT.

For roleplaying immersion, it’s a world of difference. But some min/maxing goon wouldn’t understand (kick them out of your table, IMMEDIATELY or they turn your campaign into an Videogame)

Image

Because as you can see, in Pathfinder, being Prone doesn’t actually affect your crossbow shooting at all.[/b]
How...why...wtf...my god...Seriously? How high do you have to be as an editor to NOT read this paragraph and realize this piece of shit does nothing?
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Post by OgreBattle »

Hahah, to make it more clear that it's a satirical joke, check out these feats I made up for Pathfinder:

New feat trees such as...

"War Wounds"
You're a veteran of combat and your body's disfigurement tells the tale of your exploits
Prerequisites: Toughness, you have been reduced to negative hit points before.

Benefit: You lose a limb. If it is an arm you have only one arm to use. If it is a leg you move at 1/2 speed and take a -4 penalty dexterity. You gain a +2 feat bonus to intimidate checks, a +2 feat bonus to diplomacy checks against those with a military background, and a +1 to save vs fear effects. If your lost limb is restored by any methods you lose all benefits of this feat until a limb is lost again. This feat may be taken as many times as you have limbs to lose.

----
"Combo Mobility"
You rain down a tornado of blows like a crazy whirlwind sweeping the battle like a hurricane
Prerequisites: Spring Attack, Base Attack Bonus +6, Dex 15

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you may take a 5ft step before, after, or between your attacks without suffering a penalty to your attacks or provoking an attack of opportunity.
----

"Combo Strike"
Your follow up attacks land with greater accuracy than normal

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Int 13

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you gain a +1 to hit with your attack with the second highest BAB modifier.
---
"Improved Combo Strike"
Your follow up attacks land with greater accuracy than normal

Prerequisites: Combo Strike, Base attack bonus +11, Int 13

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you gain a +1 to hit with your attack with the third highest BAB modifier.
-----
Demolition Strike
Your keen eye gives you the edge even against non living foes
Prerequisites: knowledge: Engineering +6, Sneak attack class feature

Benefit: after making a knowledge: engineering check on a construct, if you pass you can sneak attack the construct as a full round action.

Divine Punishment
Not even the nonliving can escape your dagger's holy bite.
Prerequisite: Channel Energy class feature

Benefit: you may expend a use of Channel Energy to sneak attack an undead target as a full round action.

-----

Pathfinder's edge is the roleplay enhancements it delivers with character class, archetypes, skills, and a multitude of feats with evocative names. It is not about making a better 'game', it is about having your character sheet tell a better STORY.

So, are these feats believable enough to be published by Paizo?

How...why...wtf...my god...Seriously? How high do you have to be as an editor to NOT read this paragraph and realize this piece of shit does nothing?
The guy who wrote that feat posted on the paizo board, he said it was suppose to give an attack bonus but it was edited out of Ultimate Combat, the editor had REMOVED THE BONUS because he thought it would be overpowered, removing the non-existant penalty was enough.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aryxbez »

Good god...those feats are all so...terrible! Appreciate you letting me know Koumei, only good thing out of that was the Jester rip-off ability, even that needs some refinements.

Even Prone Shooter is the kind of thing terribleness that passes over my head, but now can see such...(shakes head).

Man, things like this, that baffle me that Pathfinder is allowed to exist.
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Post by Neurosis »

OgreBattle wrote:Let me tell you about Feats. A specific Feat. A Specific Feat from Paizo’s Ultimate Combat for Pathfinder.

This Feat is Prone Shooter. Let me tell you what Prone Shooter does.

It puts you into the mindset of The Prone Shooter. You go prone, you lie prone, you are thinking “I am a Prone Shooter” and you shoot with all the clarity Prone gives to the Prone Shooter.

Your buddy glances at your character sheet. He sees “Prone Shooter”, he knows "damn, that guy, he is a Prone Shooter, I better watch out when he falls prone, he still shoots!"


Yeah, that’s damn right, it’s On Your Character Sheet.

You didn’t even need to say anything, that’s real roleplaying right there, it’s dialog without dialog like a gritty western, very thematic.


Sure, you might have imitators, that guy over there might also be prone and shooting, but you know what? He’s just prone and shooting, he’s not a Prone Shooter, it’s not on his character sheet. What he does is mundane. What you do, it’s a heroic FEAT.

For roleplaying immersion, it’s a world of difference. But some min/maxing goon wouldn’t understand (kick them out of your table, IMMEDIATELY or they turn your campaign into an Videogame)

Image

Because as you can see, in Pathfinder, being Prone doesn’t actually affect your crossbow shooting at all.[/b]
I lol'd.
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Post by Seerow »

Aryxbez wrote:Good god...those feats are all so...terrible! Appreciate you letting me know Koumei, only good thing out of that was the Jester rip-off ability, even that needs some refinements.

Even Prone Shooter is the kind of thing terribleness that passes over my head, but now can see such...(shakes head).

Man, things like this, that baffle me that Pathfinder is allowed to exist.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or didn't read that he said those feats are all fake.
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Post by Starmaker »

Seerow wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or didn't read that he said those feats are all fake.
OgreBattle wrote up some fake feats. Koumei reviewed actual Pathfinder feats with links to Pathfinder SRD.
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Post by nockermensch »

OgreBattle wrote:Let me tell you about Feats. A specific Feat. A Specific Feat from Paizo’s Ultimate Combat for Pathfinder.

This Feat is Prone Shooter. Let me tell you what Prone Shooter does.

<snip what Prone Shooter does>
[/b]
The feat... it does nothing!
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Post by rasmuswagner »

Libertad wrote:You know, the whole "feats for every circumstance" thing would work... if you had dozens of feats to spend.

If you have only a limited number of feats, then the feats need to be more versatile and have more effects. +2 on Hide and Move Silently pales in comparison to Greater Invisibility and Silence, spells that Wizards can learn from spellbooks without having to wait another level. Feats need to be either more plentiful or more versatile.
Also, paying for a small bonus is bullshit, but that's a topic for a rant all of its own.
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Post by OgreBattle »

For some reason I was compelled to visit the Paizo boards and...
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz552o?Why-al ... ghter-hate
ah, it's still chugging! Over a thousand and two hundred replies.
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Post by Niles »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Let me tell you about Feats. A specific Feat. A Specific Feat from Paizo’s Ultimate Combat for Pathfinder.

This Feat is Prone Shooter. Let me tell you what Prone Shooter does.

It puts you into the mindset of The Prone Shooter. You go prone, you lie prone, you are thinking “I am a Prone Shooter” and you shoot with all the clarity Prone gives to the Prone Shooter.

Your buddy glances at your character sheet. He sees “Prone Shooter”, he knows "damn, that guy, he is a Prone Shooter, I better watch out when he falls prone, he still shoots!"


Yeah, that’s damn right, it’s On Your Character Sheet.

You didn’t even need to say anything, that’s real roleplaying right there, it’s dialog without dialog like a gritty western, very thematic.


Sure, you might have imitators, that guy over there might also be prone and shooting, but you know what? He’s just prone and shooting, he’s not a Prone Shooter, it’s not on his character sheet. What he does is mundane. What you do, it’s a heroic FEAT.

For roleplaying immersion, it’s a world of difference. But some min/maxing goon wouldn’t understand (kick them out of your table, IMMEDIATELY or they turn your campaign into an Videogame)

Image

Because as you can see, in Pathfinder, being Prone doesn’t actually affect your crossbow shooting at all.[/b]
How...why...wtf...my god...Seriously? How high do you have to be as an editor to NOT read this paragraph and realize this piece of shit does nothing?
Apparently it was submitted by a freelancer giving a bonus to crossbow attacks while prone, and the editor or developer changed it to what you see here.
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Post by hogarth »

No suprises here -- Pathfinder is still outselling the rapidly collapsing D&D in hobby stores, as of Q4 2011

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22214.html
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Seeing as how the D&D design team straight up said they wished they could undo 4e and have announced a new edition, 4e is collapsing like a house of cards.
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Post by Maxus »

Here's a thought: Why don't they go back to making 3.5 stuff for a while, try to get some support and trust back, and suck it up and deal with the mockery until they have something -decent- to put out?
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by hogarth »

Maxus wrote:Here's a thought: Why don't they go back to making 3.5 stuff for a while, try to get some support and trust back, and suck it up and deal with the mockery until they have something -decent- to put out?
...because a lot of the erstwhile 3.5 market has moved on to Pathfinder or 4E or something else?

(I assume you're joking, of course.)
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Post by Maxus »

hogarth wrote:
Maxus wrote:Here's a thought: Why don't they go back to making 3.5 stuff for a while, try to get some support and trust back, and suck it up and deal with the mockery until they have something -decent- to put out?
...because a lot of the erstwhile 3.5 market has moved on to Pathfinder or 4E or something else?

(I assume you're joking, of course.)
Sadly, it isn't the worst option available. If 5e flops, D&D is screwed.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

At that point, I can't help but wonder what will happen. Does that mean people will think "Pathfinder" when they think TTRPGs, or will they just fade from the public consciousness?
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Post by hogarth »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:At that point, I can't help but wonder what will happen. Does that mean people will think "Pathfinder" when they think TTRPGs, or will they just fade from the public consciousness?
I suspect that when 5E finally comes out, it will eclipse Pathfinder in terms of sales, at least for a while. Pathfinder will be on its way down (at least until 2E Pathfinder) and 5E will be on its way up.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

hogarth wrote: I suspect that when 5E finally comes out, it will eclipse Pathfinder in terms of sales, at least for a while. Pathfinder will be on its way down (at least until 2E Pathfinder) and 5E will be on its way up.
I don't know. There seems to be quite a bit of backlash from the 4e crowd against 5e.
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Post by hogarth »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
hogarth wrote: I suspect that when 5E finally comes out, it will eclipse Pathfinder in terms of sales, at least for a while. Pathfinder will be on its way down (at least until 2E Pathfinder) and 5E will be on its way up.
I don't know. There seems to be quite a bit of backlash from the 4e crowd against 5e.
So? There was a backlash from the 3.5E crowd against 4E, and yet 4E was moderately successful (Pathfinder notwithstanding).
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Post by Username17 »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:At that point, I can't help but wonder what will happen. Does that mean people will think "Pathfinder" when they think TTRPGs, or will they just fade from the public consciousness?
D&D has been uncool, bankrupt, and eclipsed by rivals before. In 1998, White Wolf dominated the RPG market.

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Post by HalcyonUmbra »

FrankTrollman wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:At that point, I can't help but wonder what will happen. Does that mean people will think "Pathfinder" when they think TTRPGs, or will they just fade from the public consciousness?
D&D has been uncool, bankrupt, and eclipsed by rivals before. In 1998, White Wolf dominated the RPG market.

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Yeah, but didn't they get bailed out of that by WotC swooping in and buying TSR?
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Post by Aryxbez »

hogarth wrote:No suprises here -- Pathfinder is still outselling the rapidly collapsing D&D in hobby stores, as of Q4 2011

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22214.html
Again I must say, Why in the hell is Dragon Age in 4th place, and seriously, people are into Lord of the Rings now? I guess it must be the Skyrim craze, however I find it odd that Shadowrun isn't winning over Dark Heresy or Dragon Age at the very "least". Video games have seen a rise in Cyberpunk popularity after all, don't see why Shadowrun would be any different, unless their products have been that bad?

Anyway, it seems liking D&D would be the kinda cool thing to do, people slowly becoming more embracing of what used to be "nerdy", I'm quite sure. Although increasingly becoming harder to place an RPG where to start, so I guess that's where White Wolf, or Pathfinder come in. Like to think RPG's will stick around, even if might get overshadowed by the latest RPG to come out (Skyrim, Amalur, anyone?) for awhile.

So, if Pathfinder was the Watchers to "save" D&D, who'll be watching the watchmen (and thus "save" Pathfinder?)
Last edited by Aryxbez on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries

"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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