Spell level of spell-like abilities

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:25 am

So there are some spell-like abilities that have no listed levels. This is commonly an issue; see the confusion over whether or not a Spellthief can ever steal a Paladin's mount and if so, what comes as a result.

More specifically, is there any clarification for what spell level the spell-like abilities of the Fire Mage have? I want to know if it's possible to, for instance, apply Quicken Spell-Like Ability to them or somesuch. Spheres are pretty clear on their spell-like levels, but I can't find anything for the Fire Mage.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:44 am

Probably 1/2 HD.

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:02 am

Depending on if the ability scales with character level or class level, it might be better to say 1/2 class level instead.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:30 am

No. Instead of doing that, don't do that, or the player of any class that grants a SLA and has taken less than 10 levels of it is going to walk away and play Smash Bros every time anyone whips out a greater globe of invunrability. 1/2 Hit Dice all day, everyday.

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:09 am

Spell level = 1/2 hit dice implies you'll never be able to apply feats like Empower SLA or Quicken SLA or any similar stuff to Fire Mage SLAs at all since the spell level is always going to be too high for your level to apply such feats. Would this be the intention?

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:30 am

I can honestly say that I've never had that be a problem for a Fire Mage's firebolts, despite the fact that our group has and continues to let Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery, and any other feat that could be applied to a ranged weapon apply to a Fire Mage's Fire Bolts, using the rational that it counted as a "weapon like spell" like a Warlock's eldritch blast SLA and could benifit from feats such as Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot, as explained in the Complete Arcane.

3/day Empower is kinda weaksauce to Tome TWF, no?

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:31 am

For the specific example of the paladin's mount, the rules explicitly say that the effective spell level of the ability is 1/3 the paladin's level. That's also kind of weird, but at least they tell you.

Otherwise, the rules say you're supposed to use the spell. If the Sp ability isn't an actual spell, follow the rules text for the ability. Which isn't helpful if that information is missing for some reason.

If you want spell-like "metamagic" to work, as Mauver pointed out, you'll have to assign spell levels to each ability. Maybe you could assign a level based on the level the fire mage gets the ability? An Sp learned at level 1 is a first level spell, one learned at level 3 is a second level spell, and so on using a wizard-like progression. If you wanted to use a sorc progression instead, that'd also work. The problem with this is that it doesn't fix the aforementioned globe of invulnerability issue. It also screws up save DCs, but the fire mage also already doesn't follow the normal rules for save DCs for spell-like abilities, and that's a whole new tin of writhing annelids.

You could always fix the problem by making all the fire mage's abilities Su instead of Sp, but it's pretty clear that they're Sp for numerous reasons (like Su abilities ignoring SR, just for starters).

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:15 am

Applying metamagic to the fire mage's abilities might be a bit much. As it stands, all the abilities that allow saves have DCs (which are, of course, 1/2 HD + Cha).

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:53 am

Hicks wrote:I can honestly say that I've never had that be a problem for a Fire Mage's firebolts, despite the fact that our group has and continues to let Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Zen Archery, and any other feat that could be applied to a ranged weapon apply to a Fire Mage's Fire Bolts, using the rational that it counted as a "weapon like spell" like a Warlock's eldritch blast SLA and could benifit from feats such as Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot, as explained in the Complete Arcane.

3/day Empower is kinda weaksauce to Tome TWF, no?

Agreed on all counts (except maybe the TWF to Fire Bolts thing). However, I'd just like to know if there's any actual mechanical info on how that's supposed to work. Fireballs is pretty clearly just the same as Fireball, so it's easy enough to bullshit something right there, but most of those other SLAs are pretty weird.

I thought about the whole "depends on the level you get it" idea that Archmage came up with; perhaps I'll go with that. Indeed, slinging empowered firebolts at level 6 isn't a particularly big deal. I don't like the idea of making the Fire Mage CFs Su rather than Sp even as a fix to this issue, as I'd prefer that the Fire Mage actually has something to do with swift actions later in its existence.

I think I'll go with the "Depends on the level you get it" solution for the campaign I'm about to be running.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:08 am

...I'm pretty sure meta-SLA feats don't use that rule any more (where you have to figure out what level you can meta based on your caster-like level), and just say "Fuck it. You took the feat, you can meta X/day. Good for you."

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:47 pm

Any idea where that errata was issued? I can see how it would make sense, considering that's about how sudden metamagic works and it actually allows you to apply to all different spells.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:16 pm

Hicks wrote:No. Instead of doing that, don't do that, or the player of any class that grants a SLA and has taken less than 10 levels of it is going to walk away and play Smash Bros every time anyone whips out a greater globe of invunrability. 1/2 Hit Dice all day, everyday.

You know, I´m fine with that. globe of invulnerabilty is a junk spell no one casts. If it actually shut some people down sometimes the game would be more interesting.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:16 pm

Hmm, I thought it was in CArc, but I was wrong. Never mind (though it does say you can use the Sudden Meta Feats on SLAs, and they have no level limit).

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:28 pm

I believe those things have some weird-ass prereqs on them though. I don't have CArc on me at this moment, though. I think it involves, for instance, having Quicken Spell before you can pick up Sudden Quicken, which is basically a waste of a feat for someone who never uses actual spells.

I'm fairly sure there's a workable solution somewhere in all this junk anyway.