What Pathfinder Did Right

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Tue May 13, 2014 4:36 am

My main problem with the Inquisitor is that it's another case of them jacking themselves off to shitty teamwork feats. I can tell that they are some designer's baby and so he just shoehorns them in everywhere.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue May 13, 2014 10:34 am

they should rename them Inquisitor Feats. Never seen anyone else use those.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Tue May 13, 2014 12:20 pm

I have a Cavalier that's been making pretty effective use of them. Granted, he has a (I believe third-party) ability to share his teamwork feats with the rest of the party, and we're all pretty low-level anyway.

Neon Sequitur · Post by **Neon Sequitur** » Tue May 13, 2014 4:25 pm

TiaC wrote:My main problem with the Inquisitor is that it's another case of them jacking themselves off to shitty teamwork feats. I can tell that they are some designer's baby and so he just shoehorns them in everywhere.

There's an archetype that replaces those shitty teamwork feats (I hate those) with a different set of abilities, called "Determination." Once per day the inquisitor can 1) re-roll an attack, 2) get a +4 AC after seeing an attack roll, 3) force an enemy to re-roll an attack vs. an ally.

Every 3 levels, he gains another daily use of Determination. I've been using the hell out of this ability, and generally having a blast with my inquisitor.

I love the versatility of judgement! Some ass-hat threw oil on him, so before they could light it, he switches his active judgement to fire resistance 6. They light him up, and he stands there laughing, and shouts "The righteous do not burn!" then proceeds to grapple said ass-hat, burning him with his own oil. Wacky fun....

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Every 3/4 caster they made seems to be right about where a d20 game would be balanced wise. The Ranger and Paladin and Barbarian are far and away superior to what they were in 3.5. The Bestiaries are a lot better than the Monster Manuals were.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:15 pm

The Barbarian, really?
I'll give you the Paladin and I'll take your word for it on the Ranger, but the Pathfinder Barbarian was some of the fiddliest, most bullshit class design I've ever seen.
Give me a 3.5 Barbarian any day.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:17 pm

Schleiermacher wrote:The Barbarian, really?
I'll give you the Paladin and I'll take your word for it on the Ranger, but the Pathfinder Barbarian was some of the fiddliest, most bullshit class design I've ever seen. Give me a 3.5 Barbarian any day.

Yeah, it was fiddly and big numbers but it at least works. And it is one of the good examples I think of "Pathfinder Options."

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:23 pm

Really? I guess that all comes from the supplements then.
The insulting rage "powers" and the meaningless book-keeping of "rage turns" in the core book very nearly made me cry.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:45 pm

I really do dislike what happened to Barbarian Rage and Bard durations, though. It isn't all perfect.

You know something? Maybe it is good that they finally got people away
from playing Rogues in the 4 person party by doing everything possible
to gimp the Rogue?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue May 13, 2014 6:25 pm

The pathfinder barbarian is the core barbarian + rage powers.

The pathfinder fighter is the core fighter + armor training, weapon training, and bravery.

The pathfinder paladin is the core paladin + mercies, auras, and a slightly sped up progression.

The pathfinder ranger is the core ranger + favored terrain, a couple new abilities, and a few abilities earlier.

Against a static benchmark, every single one of those is an improvement. They're just more things on top of the things you already have. But in every single case, the new things are piddly, forgettable bullshit. Barbarian rage powers aren't good, and the ones that are good happen four levels too late. Fighters having more AC, attack, and damage does not fix them. Paladins can't remove the status conditions that all but kill people until level 12. The auras are nice, but not very good. Rangers getting some init and skill bonuses in certain terrain is nice, but it sure as fuck isn't gonna make them any more worth playing.

I would not describe the Pathfinder versions as being far and away superior. The fighter and the ranger are total failures. The barbarian and the paladin provide a framework that could be successfully used to graft level appropriate abilities onto barbarians and paladins, but the actual abilities in those frameworks were designed by people who hate noncasters and as such they suck.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue May 13, 2014 6:26 pm

Schleiermacher wrote:Really? I guess that all comes from the supplements then.
The insulting rage "powers" and the meaningless book-keeping of "rage turns" in the core book very nearly made me cry.

Rage powers got better and there's a way to rage cycle from level one, so the book-keeping at least pays off. They also still get Pounce, but at level 10 instead of level 1. They're probably the best non-caster, which isn't saying a hell of a lot.

And in a weird, roundabout way, they've codified the Flasked Avenger as the way to play a damage Rogue with the Alchemist being Rogue++. Throw in the trapfinding and diplomancing with Int traits and you're golden.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed May 14, 2014 2:54 am

Insomniac wrote:I really do dislike what happened to Barbarian Rage and Bard durations, though.

1/day abilities are terrible. I'll take tracking individual rounds over that any day.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed May 14, 2014 4:22 am

DSMatticus wrote:The pathfinder barbarian is the core barbarian + rage powers.

This is the one I have argued and will still argue. The Pathfinder Barbarian is nothing like the 3.E Barbarian. Every single Barbarian build I knew of in the 3.E era was a power attack abuser and since power attack has been nerfed and all of the feats and abilities that let you multiply it are gone I can't see any way to make a Pathfinder Barbarian that is anywhere in the ballpark of the old Barbarian.

A 6th level Barbarian with Core, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine could pounce with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper to smash things for obscene damage that let them be a level appropriate threat to anything they could find a way to hit. Pathfinder also doesn't have Bear Warrior or Frenzied Berserker which were the only 2 Prestige classes ever printed for the Barbarian that were worth anyone's time. Every single tool the Barbarian had to hammer themself into being something level appropriate was removed in the Pathfinder switch.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Wed May 14, 2014 12:48 pm

The Arcanist (shades of Earthdawn in that one).

The Archaeologist Bard archetype is the closest thing I've found so far to Generic Self Sufficient Adventurer.

The Magus. The synthesist Summoner. Letting Dreamscarred Press handle all the psionics stuff, and thusly the Soulknife and Psychic Warrior.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed May 14, 2014 4:58 pm

synthesist summoner? Is this still the "what PF did right thread"?

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Thu May 15, 2014 2:09 pm

Yeah, I just really enjoy the concept.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Thu May 15, 2014 2:28 pm

Ferret wrote:Yeah, I just really enjoy the concept.

The concept of being a Power Ranger/Venom is okay. The execution though...

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Thu May 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Longes wrote:
Ferret wrote:Yeah, I just really enjoy the concept.
The concept of being a Power Ranger/Venom is okay. The execution though...

Yeah the synthesis summoner is odd... they went through all the effort of nerfing all the polymorph/wild shape stuff so that it didn't use stat replacement and all the other stuff that made the 3E druid broken, and then went ahead and gave it to the synthesist.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Thu May 15, 2014 4:43 pm

Smeelbo wrote:Bards are much more playable, especially at the levels I actually play.
First, because maintaining a Bard Song takes a free action, allowing the Bard to act in combat and keep up the Happy Happy Joy Joy song.
Second, because of the feat Spell Song, which allows the bard to disguise his spell casting as part of his performance. So now the Bard can do something no other caster can--cast spells, like Charm Person and Hypnotism, right in front of a bunch of people and they will have no clue that spells are being cast.

a. Bards could in 3.5 maintain as free action. Except for 3 performances: Fascinate, etc.
The only difference: Bards in 3.5 can't maintain while casting without Complete Mage feat.
Heck, Bard's duration in 3.5's Inspire Courage have infinite duration till you decide to stop.
b. Spell Song is in 3.5 also.

Really, they did nothing new there. But the archetypes are pretty cool.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Thu May 15, 2014 5:44 pm

Cyberzombie wrote:Yeah the synthesis summoner is odd... they went through all the effort of nerfing all the polymorph/wild shape stuff so that it didn't use stat replacement and all the other stuff that made the 3E druid broken, and then went ahead and gave it to the synthesist.

It's not even in the same realm as 3E Polymorph though. You're working off a defined list of abilities, so there isn't "double the actions, double the fun" or "immune to damage" available for dumpster diving. And in this case, the stat-replacement probably makes them less powerful than stat-addition would, since a Synthesist has little need for mental stats (decent Cha, but you're not using many spells with saves).

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Thu May 15, 2014 8:07 pm

Ice9 wrote:And in this case, the stat-replacement probably makes them less powerful than stat-addition would, since a Synthesist has little need for mental stats (decent Cha, but you're not using many spells with saves).

I recently built a Sythesist and while replacement might have been nice with a point-buy, we were using an array and it was surprising how little I cared about my stats. I ended up getting Cha to 20 just for the extra spell per day (the only way to heal a synthesized eidolon is the rejeuvenate eidolon tree, did you know?) and ended up with a higher Con out of synthesis than in. I also decided to not generally have it on because i want to play with summons. But when I do turn from a gnome into a panther (level 1, not many evolutions yet) I go from 10HP to 9+6, and it's weird.

In some cases I'd definitely go for replacement - point-buy and venerable cheese? Absolutely! But in this case I find myself wishing my eidolon made me more buff, not less, and stat addition would do that. It'd also give me some way to affect my AC without spending precious evolution points....

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu May 15, 2014 9:07 pm

The Summoner is my favorite thing in Pathfinder in general and the Synthesist is a great alteration of it. Momo you're level 1 now but I found the most efficient way to heal your Eidolon was not to. The Summon Eidolon spell brings your Eidolon back at half hp as a standard action which is a very efficient healing mechanic. I've had fights where I got knocked out of Synthesis mode 2 or 3 times but each time I popped it back on and made another pile of HP the baddies had to wade through.

Replacement is better in the long term because it narrows where you have to focus your advancement efforts. At first level you'll see very little advantage but as the game goes on having a class feature bring your Strength and Con into the 30's allows you to invest more resources elsewhere.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu May 15, 2014 9:26 pm

is the Tome totemist a good replacement for synthesist summoner?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu May 15, 2014 9:33 pm

The Tome Totemist is basically a dude who wears a bunch of monsters as pants. Some of those pants make you a melee monster, and some of them give you weird magical abilities. A synthesist is a dude who wears a single monster as his pants, and those pants might make him a melee monster or give him weird magical abilities.

So yeah, a light refluff and selecting abilities within a theme would turn the former into the latter, or you could just not refluff at all and be a synthesist with a rich variety of pants.

Mechanically, they're going to feel a little different - instead of being some weird duality and using two statblocks, you just get a pile of bonuses.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Fri May 16, 2014 12:03 am

deanruel87 wrote:Replacement is better in the long term because it narrows where you have to focus your advancement efforts. At first level you'll see very little advantage but as the game goes on having a class feature bring your Strength and Con into the 30's allows you to invest more resources elsewhere.

How do you get Con into the 30s? I can only get it up to 29, and that includes spending every single evolution point on it at level 20 (starts at 13, +8 for Huge, +8 for four Ability Increases). Str could be 36-40, but that's, again, with every point spent. Having that much to stats is cool but does it really compare to controlling a trumpet archon or 2-5 elder elementals for 20 minutes at least ten times a day (almost definitely more)?