Deciding on the "Feel" of a Game

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Deciding on the "Feel" of a Game

Post by the_taken »

One thing I do like from the drooling madness that is Mearls and Monte, it's that it is paramount to get the feel of the game you are designing down early. When you figure out what type of game you're going to offer to people, you can derive the crunch required to support it. Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber seem to think that because one guy has a way with words, and the other can make a system at all, that they can just slap a number system together and let "Narration" describe the story. What they need is a guy like me, with a knack for putting things together, instead of math and bullshit.

But they don't have me, you guys do. What I'm going to do now is pick the collective brains of the Den for ideas on system elements and setting elements, and line them up until we have a workable system. Some ideas I'm going to come up with on my own, since a workable base line is needed.

Hopefully, we'll make something decent. (As opposed to Mearls' "Have anything you want, and pay me for giving you none of it.")

So, back to the 'feel' of the game. What I gather is that a vast majority of the players like the Conan level of play. They like being challenged by wooden walls, moats and puppies. They want to be able to put a dirt farmer in a leather suit and give him a sharp stick and be a bit intimidated. The absolutely love counting how many javelins they are carrying, how many fiendish frogs there are in a pond, and weather or not it is a good idea to charge since they could drown before killing anything.

But they don't like it all the time. They also really like it when their character becomes more powerful. Many of these players want wild animals, town guards and environmental hazards to become less meaningful problems as they adventure. They adore leveling up, and love it when challenges of yesterday can be a walk tomorrow. The want to be able to punch hydras in the mouth and make it cry.

To that end, tiers of play are an important design consideration. What is essentially important is making sure that player's characters are always in the same tier relative to each other. A huge problem in the current D&D setting is that martial characters are designed to stay in the same tier their entire existence, while magical characters go up. We know this fully, but it has to be spelled up to some people who get drapes over their eyes. It has to be dealt with, and it has to be dealt with right at the beginning.

There Will be Heroic Tiers each representing a major paradigm of power in the characters. A character that reaches a certain level enters that Tier.
Characters all Must Advance in Tiers with everyone else, or stay behind.

That isn't to say that characters shouldn't improve if they don't want to, just that when the party witch can make a flying broom stick, everyone else should be able to have an all day over land flight ability. When the druid can make the ability to climb cliff faced mountains and leap across chasms virtually all the time, every other character should be able to do so as well. When the cleric can walk through walls, the other characters should be able to bypass them just as easily.

As Frank noted once upon a time, each full caster's spell levels have this quirk. Each has in it a set of new tactics and counters. Charm Person is a first level spell, and note that the prime defence against it, Protection from Alignment, is also a first level spell. Cause Fear and Remove Fear are also first level spells, both a tactic and counter pair. At spell level 2, clerics get Hold Person and Remove Paralysis, while at spell level 3, wizards get Haste and Slow. There are many other tactic and counter pairs in the spell lists, and it paints this interesting picture where each spell level represents a Tier of Adventuring.

If we're going to keep Vancian style casting, setting up Adventuring Tiers so it encompasses two characters levels works out nicely:
  • Levels 1 and 2 are Schmuck Levels: Bags of rats and a pack of dogs is a challenge for these characters. An elf or orc soldier is likely a level 1 character, 2 if they are a sergeant. Quickly overcoming a locked door is a challenge, but the right skill set or some Barbarian Diplomacy will just work when time is abundant. Characters will run from angry farmers, and castle moats are an effective deterrent.
    Magical powers should be about as good as mundane equipment.
    Life is cheap at this level, and it would probably be a good idea to make it easy to generate characters.
  • Levels 3 and 4 are Adventurer Levels: A pack of wolves won't be a danger to these characters, but something powerful and exotic like Hell Hound would be. Elite Soldiers belong here, and monster races should start showing up as well, like ogres and nagas. Appropriate environmental challenges include choppy lakes, bomboo shoots, rickety bridges, forest fires and a burning house. Under water adventuring should be possible here.
    Magical powers at his level should clearly make mundane equipment look like crap, unless it's a modern tech level setting. (Magical Light Spell > Flashlight)
    At this level, characters have the toughness and might to survive losing encounters, so some more time consuming character generation options should be available. Leadership abilities should be available as well, so that characters can take part in the war mini-game.
  • Levels 5 and 6 are Heroic Levels: At this point, it should be pretty clear that the mundane is being left behind, unless it's a high tech setting. Fighting (or becoming) werewolves and vampires becomes possible here, as well as mythical stuff like Medusas and Hydras, nasty stuff like trolls and giants, and cool stuff like unicorns and baby dragons. Appropriate environmental challenges are things like the crater of an active volcano, at sea in a hurricane, a collapsing sky scrapper, and getting to that castle on a cloud. You won't fight armies of level 5 characters, though the King may be a fifth level (or higher!) character. Ninjas are also part of this tier, since they are fucking magnets, which are miracles, which are magic. Fights at this level should look like wuxia films choreographed by Micheal Bay.
    The town guard should be a joke to you, as spells like Invisibility, Flight, Fireball, and Suggestion are available.
    Characters will be quite powerful and interesting, and lets not forget the investment people put into getting this far. Resurrection should be available here.
  • Levels 7 and 8 are Epic Levels: Characters at this level are awesome. Things from the Schmuck Tier shouldn't be an issue for these characters. This includes money, carrying capacity, stone walls, locked iron doors, getting lost and drowning in water. Long distance travel shouldn't be an issue either, because this is where all day flight comes online. Short range teleportation should also show up at this level, turning every fight into a crazy weeaboo anime fight. The ultimate expression of achieving this level is killing an adult dragon and taking it's hoard of gold (Where do they get it all?). Other massive entities, like castle golems, are also appropriate. Planar crossing magic should also be available now, if not sooner, since it won't be long before the material plane doesn't have challenges for these characters without killing off the low level world.
Last edited by the_taken on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by erik »

One thing that should probably happen in games with very distinct tiers like this is that leveling should be story driven and not by collecting scalps or XPs. That way Mister Cavern can make certain that there is not a level disparity that makes the game automatically unbalanced. Not much sucks more than being the schmuck level guy tagging along with some adventurer or heroic level party members.
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Post by Prak »

the schmuck tier character isn't even a companion to adventurer or heroic tier characters, he's the endearing sidekick that has to be rescued from King Gemhand, the Lich every other day and can barely be trusted to take care of the horses without almost getting killed because a dog wandered into the stables.
It literally shouldn't be possible for a player to play this role, unless it's the kid brother of a player, and even then it should be greatly discouraged.
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Post by erik »

Prak_Anima wrote:the schmuck tier...
It literally shouldn't be possible for a player to play this role
Nah.

If you're all schmucks then that's okay. Indiana Jones and Doc Holiday would be Schmuck level characters.

I don't mind playing games at that level, but people should realize that that is what it is. I do dislike when I am told we're playing a fantasy game and then we're still schmucks who can be killed by a few house cats.

I'm totally game with playing a game where I don't focus on leveling up, but instead get treasures that bestow cool magic powers that give wide horizontal boosts and minor vertical boosts. Tiers can accomplish this well.

Something I like and is often neglected in a RPG is downtime. I almost always wind up playing campaigns where there is no mechanism for downtime. Some characters don't have anything to do during downtime so we go from adventure to adventure constantly and anyone who can craft items or do longer term effects is pretty much out. It would be spiffy in a game if there were a mode for every class to have something to do with downtime where Mister Cavern says a few months are going to pass and people can give their generic plans. I dunno if this is better served by a sidebar suggestion to MTP downtime versus hard mechanics, however.
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Post by Prak »

Sorry, I didn't mean schmucktier, I meant a schmuck amongst adventurers/heroes.
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Post by Lokathor »

Schmuck Tier is all the hobbits from LotR, and all the dwarves from The Hobbit.

If your fantasy game can't potentially support those two stories then you've lost a ton of people right there.
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Post by erik »

Prak_Anima wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean schmucktier, I meant a schmuck amongst adventurers/heroes.
Ah cool then, then we're in the same boat. I'm just saying leveling via XPs is gonna wind up with people sometimes gaining at different rates, and if that happens then people will level at different times, and mixing tiers between players is bullllllllllshit. So a strongly differentiated tier system ought not level in that manner. Basically, leveling or switching tiers should be something where Mister Cavern says "Hey, we're changing gears now. Everyone level the fuck up."

Oh.
Heh, and I just noticed that this provision is in the first post.
There Will be Heroic Tiers each representing a major paradigm of power in the characters. A character that reaches a certain level enters that Tier/
Characters all Must Advance in Tiers with everyone else, or stay behind.
Did I blindly miss this before, or was it edited in as a living doc? =-)


[edit]
Okay, moving on I guess. Here's some more traits/"feels" I prefer in my fantasy/dnd RPG.

• Combat Turn/Battle Length (mercifully short)
In designing the feel of the system we also have to decide, how long do we want combats to last, and how long do we want player turns to last. That will pretty handily give us a guideline for how many rounds combats ought generally last.

I imagine we go by the rule of thumb that people ought not have time to get up and go play Smash Brothers, even if nobody really plays Smash Brothers anymore and now it is Angry Birds or some shit. A player needing to take more than a minute on their combat turn is probably an overly complex combat system. And if a combat lasts over an hour, it better be freakin epic. Does that sound bout right?

Keeping time down means not having a shit ton of bonuses to calculate, and especially not having it need recalculate every turn. +/- buffs/debuffs are a pain in the ass. Better to have some sort of status buffs which let you do certain things, or debuffs which keep you from doing certain things. Basically, buffs and debuffs work horizontally rather than vertically. Does that sound sensical?

• Combat representation (abstracted)
Also. Battle maps/mini or Abstract locations? I lean towards Abstract locations with vague combat actions you can do like "Take cover behind something" or "Enter melee with the giant" or "Block for the wizard" and so forth. Doing explicit battle maps can slow things down a bit and makes long range tracking impractical. I love using minis and they could be used for general ideas but no 5' steps or god forbid X Square movements.

• Ability to run mass combatants (yes please)
Something I'd be happy with is having good ways to quickly resolve combat with tons of foes. Being able to churn through a hundred zombies is pretty awesome. Some sort of an abstraction is required since controlling large quantities of combatants is taxing.

There's lots more, but I shoulda gone to sleep hours ago. I hope I'm not digressing into somethings other than the topical intent.
Last edited by erik on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

I think four or six level tiers work better in classic D&D, clearer distinctions.
  • 0-3 is brave souls, ordinary people doing extraordinary things while counting their rations and worrying about stuff like the weight of their armour. GURPS.
  • 4-9 is heroes, supermen, monster slayers, walking with giants, learning not to worry about things like 20' tall monsters and rivers of lava. Taking your cares, personifying them as a terrible monster of legend, and killing it for its treasure. D&D.
  • 10-15 is for legends. You should really own at least a city at this point, or a merchant fleet, maybe command the imperial space navy or a massive spy network. If you have something fixed worth defending, the ever more abstract nature of threats, monsters, and locations can be given meaning, otherwise it's just random noise.
  • 16-21 is epic. You know the world? Fuck it, it's beneath you. Beating up the gods for their lunch money. It's like building your own campaign world, everything you do rewrites the history of everything.
And even that assumes slower high level spell acquisition. 12-15-18-21 for the top 4. You can try to drag out the heroic wanderer stage to maybe 14, or the legends toward 20, but it gets silly. Look at CR 16+ monsters, demon lords, high angels, unique golems, a king of the giants, the titans, and ancient dragons; all thousands of years old, and you'll end scores of them to reach 21st.
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Post by the_taken »

erik wrote:• Combat Turn/Battle Length (mercifully short)
I agree that having short battle turns is good. Every action should be resolvable in a couple of minutes tops, but ideally hovering around 30 seconds. However, I have to say that action resolution has to be more than simple and fast. If you're players have Angry Birds running on their iPhone under the table when it's not their turn, that means that other's people's turns are less engaging than Angry Birds. That's just as bad. That means that other people actions don't matter enough for you to pay attention to them as they are being declared.

But I do agree that simple is good. "I hit it with my sword!" is close to how simple actions can get before they don't matter, and is perfect for Schmuck Tier characters.
Keeping time down means not having a shit ton of bonuses to calculate, and especially not having it need recalculate every turn. +/- buffs/debuffs are a pain in the ass. Better to have some sort of status buffs which let you do certain things, or debuffs which keep you from doing certain things. Basically, buffs and debuffs work horizontally rather than vertically. Does that sound sensical?
I agree to some extent, in that shuffling tiny modifiers around every round is annoying (Dodge feat!), some spells are not so simple to change to horizontal modification. While Haste and Slow can be changed to simply modify initiative, movement speed and actions per round (that's still a bit much), straight up buffs like Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person exclusively just do vertical enhancement. Solutions?
• Combat representation (abstracted)
Also. Battle maps/mini or Abstract locations? I lean towards Abstract locations with vague combat actions you can do like "Take cover behind something" or "Enter melee with the giant" or "Block for the wizard" and so forth. Doing explicit battle maps can slow things down a bit and makes long range tracking impractical. I love using minis and they could be used for general ideas but no 5' steps or god forbid X Square movements.
Abstract location management can be lots of fun and encourage creativity. They end up with a very cinematic feel, as people can just imagine up the world in their head. The pitfalls of that are people that lack creativity, and miscommunication can result in a character being in different places in each players' head.

Miniatures have the advantage that you can clearly see where everything is (unless it's invisible) and not have to keep as much track of it as possible. If Kyle the Wizard was right between the Pit and the Spartan, there would be no doubt. The downside to miniatures is players need the materials to support it. Meaning money. The Dungeon Master also has be very well prepared, planning out any place that's going to host a fight happen. Which is ridiculous. 3D combat is also much more difficult to run on a board with any depth.
• Ability to run mass combatants (yes please)
This is easily by two simple rules:
  • Armies are primarily composed of schmuck tier characters. They are still dangerous to Adventurer Tier characters, but are easily overshadowed by them on an individual basis. Imagine that Conan is a level 4 character, and he can cut through a pack of cultist warriors and their leaders (level 1 and 2 fighters) with some help. He could just easily cut a swath through a pack of zombies, or goblins, or peasants.
    You won't find six hundred naked oiled fighting men in an army, though a King might be able to hire 20 of them to act as an elite crack squad. You do not find armies composed entirely of giants, nagas, angels or dragons. Each one of those would be an elite character, though, like the cave troll in a goblin war band. He might even be the leader of the army, like Sauron and his goblin/orc mooks, or a Lich King emptying the zombies from his corrupted necropolis.
  • Schmuck Tier Characters are Simple The first edition fighter is the prime example of how simple shmuck tier characters should be. Determine Race and Stats, pick a class, roll HP, determine saves, grab some gear you're done. It takes me a half hour to flip through the AD&D books to find all the charts, but that's only because I'm not familiar with it. NPCs are even easier to make, since their HP doesn't matter until they are attacked (likely to drop in one hit!) and their wealth and carrying capacity can be waved away.
Last edited by the_taken on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by erik »

I meant that even without explicit battle maps and 5' squares, I still like using miniatures just to give very general positional information, and anything can be a mini. I sometimes use Starburst candies for enemies and people eat what they kill.
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Post by the_taken »

erik wrote:I meant that even without explicit battle maps and 5' squares, I still like using miniatures just to give very general positional information, and anything can be a mini. I sometimes use Starburst candies for enemies and people eat what they kill.
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Post by Chamomile »

There needs to be a decent mass combat system and a decent realm management system. It's expected that in the third tier that you'll have a kingdom if you want one, and in the fourth you can pretty much have as many as you like. Both of those should come with rules that let me actually do things with them. Expand my borders, stabilize the area, bring prosperity to the peasants, or just keep bringing in the tax money so I can fund ever more magnificent palaces.

A realm management system should cover all of the following:

-War, obviously, but it should be able to quickly resolve small-scale battles that are only important to you in aggregate. Whether that's fighting bandits and goblin skirmishers or crushing entire kingdoms will depend on your tier. Preferably, these can be solved in no more than two or three minutes.

-Trade. It should generally be more profitable for two different nations of similar power to trade with one another than fight one another.

-Resources. Things like iron, wood, really awesome horses, etc. Instead of the Age of Empires approach where there's four or five different resources that are basically different currencies, I'd go with the Total War approach, where controlling a certain resource is a pre-requisite to doing certain things (can't make an undead army unless you control a crypt, can't make heavy infantry without iron mines, etc.).

-Wandering monsters. This project is supposed to be in the same vein as D&D, right? Even if the players are no longer significantly threatened by being ambushed by a hydra on the road (which, at that level, they were probably only using for the sake of nostalgia), it should still be a big deal to the peasants, and finding a way to take care of that problem without having to leave your harem of extraplanar sex demons should be built into the system.

-And, of course, this whole thing should be completely optional. It should be entirely possible to play the game by just killing dragons, taking their loot, and then lying around in your palace with all the half-naked women and tigers.
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Post by tussock »

Hmm. Perhaps one just needs to file the serial numbers off and recycle low level play all over again.
  • Regular folk have 20 arrows that weigh 5 lb. "I shoot the goblin".
  • Heroes have 20 archers that need 30 units of supply. "The eldritch horror dissolves two of your archers".
  • Legends have 20 companies supported by a port city. "I send three dreadnoughts to protect the north coast from the sahaugin raids".
  • Epic characters have 20, uh, tokens that represent in abstract the cohesion of the part of the game world they're writing.
    "You still haven't closed the hellmouth, so lose four tokens, and tell me what that means".

EDIT: tags fixed

First you stop worrying about counting arrows, then the number of archers, then whole armies; but there's always something with saves, AC, and hit points that only you can take care of.

NB: you could totally give 1st level characters a world token to describe what happens when they do something major, and your 19th level characters may still count off their arrows of slaying and have a fondness for their old city. Not exclusive.
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Post by Aryxbez »

tussock wrote:I think four or six level tiers work better in classic D&D, clearer distinctions.
  • 0-3 is brave souls, ordinary people doing extraordinary things while counting their rations and worrying about stuff like the weight of their armour. GURPS.
  • 4-9 is heroes, supermen, monster slayers, walking with giants, learning not to worry about things like 20' tall monsters and rivers of lava. Taking your cares, personifying them as a terrible monster of legend, and killing it for its treasure. D&D.
  • 10-15 is for legends. You should really own at least a city at this point, or a merchant fleet, maybe command the imperial space navy or a massive spy network. If you have something fixed worth defending, the ever more abstract nature of threats, monsters, and locations can be given meaning, otherwise it's just random noise.
  • 16-21 is epic. You know the world? Fuck it, it's beneath you. Beating up the gods for their lunch money. It's like building your own campaign world, everything you do rewrites the history of everything.
And even that assumes slower high level spell acquisition. 12-15-18-21 for the top 4. You can try to drag out the heroic wanderer stage to maybe 14, or the legends toward 20, but it gets silly. Look at CR 16+ monsters, demon lords, high angels, unique golems, a king of the giants, the titans, and ancient dragons; all thousands of years old, and you'll end scores of them to reach 21st.
Toning down the higher end shenanigans, while bring the non-casters to speed, sounds like the ideal thing to do. I would hope most are on page with that concept, especially when discussing the "heroic tiers" that should be emulated here. So I support this level range described here.

However, not all people want to go plane hopping, but instead what of people who want to use their high level powers on the Material plane, and try to include such stories there?
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Post by the_taken »

Toning down higher end shenanigans? No. That's a terrible thing to do. Fixing broken rules, like Polymorph, Simulacrums, Wishing for a Ring of Divinely Quickened Wishes, Assistant Nanobots, Contingency Cascades, and Gate Bombing is fine (I'm iffy on the last two), but removing the epic power scheme shenanigans is the last thing you want to do. If anything, there should be more of them!

And that's what spell levels are supposed to represent: Changes in power paradigms. At 11th level Necromancers become Liches, Paladins become Angels, Evil Knights become Demons, Druids become Treants (or Dryads or something... I'm not sure) and Barbarians... have long since become something else. 13th level characters are proto-gods, demon princes or something equivalent. At 17th level, they attain command over the cosmos itself, able to pull meteors from the heavens, or merge sections of the material plane with hell itself!

If you don't want to do any of that kind of stuff, stay at a lower level. That's perfectly allowable, and even encouraged.
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Post by FatR »

I see three tiers in a game I'd like to play:

Heroic Tier: Typical low-fantasy stuff. At the beginning of it an equal number of humanoids with pointy sticks, no matter how unskilled, or hungry wolves, is a deadly and serious threat. But the end no individual grunt stands a chance against you, but you still can lose if dogpiled. You do not fight anything seriously stronger than the biggest RL predators or their close equivalents. Your adventures are largely local in scale, unless you get involved in some bigger plot or quest by virtue of your birth, circumstances or cleverness. If this does not happen, you can reasonably expect to attain the status of landed nobility or equivalent, due to your prowess alone, by the end if this tier. Available magic is about as powerful as "having a flamethrower good for a couple of shots and maybe some hand grenades" and non-magical characters are supposed to be viable. Levels 1-6 in 3.X terms.


Legendary Tier: High fantasy, in style of later Wheel of Time books, Feist's books, Shannara, Malazan, and so on. Magic bullshit all around! You need some magic and/or anti-magic defences to compete, no exceptions. At the beginning you can scythe through small units single-handedly. By the end armies of even the most elite heroic-tier characters are speedbumps at best for you. Either the entire world widely incorporates magic, or the party can run roughout through it, conquering kingdoms under their own power alone. Encountering fantastical(ly poweful) beings, like dragons or krakens, is the norm. Scale of adventures might stay roughly the same if the entire world is scaled to the legendary tier from the beginning, but more likely you play as and routinely interact with some of the most powerful entities in the setting, so your adventures often concern fate of the world, or its continent-sized parts. By the end of legendary tier you either rule the world or have a major vote in how the world is going to be ruled. Ideally, this should happen at the equivalent of levels 7-14 in 3.X.


Epic Tier: Cosmic supers, Dragonball and a couple of other mangas, myths like Ramayana. Here you start to play on the level of the strongest beings in existence, like gods and demon kings. You're not their better, probably, at least until the very end, but you're definitely their rival. Your routine encounters at this stage can easily lay waste to lower-tier civilizations, and your major foes can scour planets of life at the very least. The entire cosmos is your battleground, and you can strive to invoke cosmic changes without feeling presumptious. This tier should have a huge "don't enter unless you want PCs to cause major setting changes at will" sticker attached to it. And include powers that actually warrant it. Levels 15-20.
Last edited by FatR on Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by the_taken »

Three Tiers is too little. This cowardly first level hobbit hobo is on a totally different power tier than the armoured knights but few levels above him. The skulker has to snoop around and gank the unsuspecting, while the knight can hack through a pack of schmucks in ten seconds. Not cleave, hack. Then the Dragon Knight two levels later can knock down entire battalions with a shout, and trounce a pack of armoured Knights with screams of flaming fury.

Even DBZ has different tiers of powers, from army->city->continent->planet->reality smashing, each with a new scope of stakes on the line. But even that is just a question of the characters just getting bigger numbers, they don't meaningfully change in terms of paradigms. They just hit bigger and harder. A better example would be some cosmic bending stuff like, something that Ramayana doesn't even have. (The synopsis on Wikipedia does not mention anything about affecting reality, just a grand five book adventure.) A better example of that would parts of stories that get down right Biblical, and even then you have to sort through the less epic stuff to get into it.

The foremost thing that matters at epic play is that you're not just affecting the shape of the universe, but the very nature of it.
  • In Genesis, Jehova invents light, then three days later invents the rules for discrete light sources, just because he thought it would be better than his first idea of just having light all over the place.
  • Scratched at in FLCL, the backdrop plot to a metaphor for a coming of age story, the Earth is threatened by some sort of organizing that wants to iron the wrinkles off of the earth and transform society and the ecology into something uniform and boring. With a giant Iron people think is a factory or something.
  • In Evangelion, under the guise of a metaphor for overcoming depression and psychological hangups, Humanity is threatened with being replaced instantly with another species or life form by the lonely god of said entity type, then with being fused into a singular immortal entity to act as the soul for a giant purple robot.
  • In Tappan Tengen Gurren Lagann, the protagonists, in machines fuelled solely by various intense manly emotions, go to a xenocidal deity's pet universe designed to murder and demoralize them, to kill said god, who is dreamt into existence by a race that wants to stagnate the universe with xenocide, because they think that too much sentient life will implode it. The main protagonist even declares that he'll drill at the universe so hard it won't implode, but we don't get to see that story since he became too depressed after getting married to a dead girl.
Fucking biblical. But that kinda stuff will have to wait, since it's very hard to make rules for.

From some of the discussions on this very board, I'm getting an interesting picture of what kind of things to have at each tier. Another neat idea is to vertically, the scope and character abilities should increase dramatically, and new tactics should become available.

However, there should also be plenty of room for horizontal advancement. Characters should be able to stay in the same tier but still noticeably grow in ability. Shouldn't they? After all, just because you and your friends become Nth level and get access to a list of abilities doesn't mean you're all going to use those abilities anytime soon. Realizing a paradigm shift takes time, and staying in a certain level range for an extended period to explore them all should be encouraged.

An example of that would be the Leadership abilities. At first, a character with Leadership just attracts a cohort. But as he adventures and gains renown, more and more people just start following him. Or at least gather in his castle and help polish it. One can also inherit a leadership value from someone else, such as a King (level 5 NPC) passing on rulership to a suitable heir (level 3 NPC), or a general promoting a notable warrior to the rank of Captain and telling others to follow his orders.

Other abilities should have unlimited horizontal growth, but become obsolete after several levels, so as not to confuse people with into thinking that the game will be the same but bigger in several levels. Like money and armies. There are to be no armies of liches!
Last edited by the_taken on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by the_taken »

So, as the concept is now, not only do numbers and effects get bigger as characters levels up, but different tactics become available and lower level tactics become easier to deal with. We can fiddle with definitions and expand to high levels, but the basic is there. For the next part, some reference material:

Tactics
Theme
Status Conditions
Bloodied Condition

So what happens now is that we take a tactic, split it into themes and then have different abilities show up at different levels. Like:

Leadership Themes:
  • Animals
  • Mind Control
  • Elementals (and multiple types to boot!
  • Constructs
  • Animated Dead
  • Bound Demons/Angels/Space Bugs/Giant Frog
  • Cloning
  • Faeries/Nature Spirits
  • Friendship*
  • Mercenaries for Hire*
  • Army Officer*
* These types of Leadership themes exist independently from character power progressions as anyone should be able to get them.

Animal Leadership:
  1. Shmuck
    • Squirrels: A bunch of squirrels follow your around and collect nuts on your behalf.
    • Wolf: This cuddly doggie has sharp teeth and a keen nose. Howl and he'll come to your aid.
    • Crow: A bird with sharp eyesight that follows you around and squawks whenever he see something interesting.
  2. Adventurer
    • Wolf Pack: Your doggie found a mate and had pups, and now they team up and fight for you.
    • Purple Toad: You have a croaking, poisonous pet. He'll attack anyone that gets close to you.
    • Army of Bees: Your backpack is also a bee hive. They're cool with you and your other friends, but if you get hit, they'll fly into a rage and swarm.
  3. Heroic
    • Pegasus Mount: Wow, you have a flying horse as a friend! And he knows first aid! Wow!
    • Grizzly Affairs: Your loyal body guard is a fucking bear! He goes "Rawr!" and goblins run away.
    • Rhino Turtle: Your singing friend from the sea is a large turtle that ferries you around on his back, or blasts enemies away with waves of water!
Last edited by the_taken on Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

What's the limit on number of powers per character going to be?

Or will that number scale with level?

I suggest the latter, but make the base amount large enough for low level characters to get some variety, such as about 3-5 powers at level 1.

Also, two big things:
• All damage should scale for powers. Even if it's a power that would normally go 'obsolete' and get swapped out, maybe a character has use for it later. This pushes out the need for 1-HP-mooks such as in 4e, which is stupid.
For instance, if you're level 5 and you deal at least 10 damage with every attack, a 10-HP mook is going to die in 1 hit anyway, which is effectively the same as having 1 HP.

• Please, no 5-6 option Tome feats. They make a mess out of high level character building and NPC design. Give feats maybe 2-3 advancements at most and let it expire in favor of another feat, or have a feat do one thing but have it scale with level (such as TWF or Power Attack). I've introduced many players to Tome material only to have the feats (especially the feats) shot down as too complex.
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Post by the_taken »

I think using the 3.x Wizard's spell slot progression as a basis for the number of abilities known is a good idea. I don't think I'll allow awesome stats to enable more abilities. Any other power accumulation scheme just doesn't do what I want, though the 3.x sorcerer's spells know comes close.

Thinking about it, I think that picking a bunch of classes, then assigning abilities based on tactics and theme would be a good start. Thinking on it a bit, I decided on:
  • Assassin: Debuff, Entrap. By sneaking up on enemies and stabbing weak points, Assassins kill fast and whatever doesn't die wishes it was. Uses Power and Study Attacks, and Tricks for heavily armoured enemies, fast enemies and disappearing enemies.
  • Psion: Enable, Harry. Using mind tricks, they mess up enemies and give helpful hints to allies. Has Rapid and Ranged attacks, and has tricks for lots of enemies, flying enemies and fast enemies.
  • Monk: Harry, Entrap. Spends so much time training in the use of Ki that they can really mess up opponents. Has Powerful and Rapid Attacks, and tricks for heavily unusually tough enemies, disappearing enemies, and invisible enemies.
  • Paladin: Buff, Avoid. Blessed by the god with luck, and can share that luck with others. Has Powerful Attacks, and tricks for unusually tough enemies and lots of enemies.
  • Ranger: Harry, Entrap. Snipes to make enemies drop stuff and trip over themselves, and can use nature to make life difficult for them. Has Ranged attacks and Rapid Attacks, and tricks for lots of enemies, smaller enemies and burrowing enemies.
  • Barbarian: Avoid, Debuff. Hulk out and hits things so hard they get weaker. Has Powerful Attacks, and tricks for unusually tough enemies, lots of enemies and heavily armoured enemies.
  • Channeller: Leadership, Buff. Bring down magical godly blessings and summons celestial allies. Attack with Rapid Attacks and tricks for gaseous and liquid enemies, and unusually tough enemies.
  • Druid: Arrange, Move. Uses Nature to block off enemies and make life easier for their allies. Has Study Attacks and tricks for lots of enemies, bigger enemies and regenerating enemies.
  • Necromancer:
  • Illusionist
  • Conjurer
  • Bard
  • Enchantress
Ugh, tired...
Last edited by the_taken on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by the_taken »

As we go, we can fill this out.

What this is is a collection of tables. Each table represents a two-tactic combo that makes up the focus of a basic class, all under the same theme. Each table is a different theme.
Last edited by the_taken on Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shadzar »

feel of the game:

*if i forgot to eat i should get hungry and notice it and have to find food. the world should simulate daily life, but not to excess. bathroom breaks are assumed at stops, unless illness dictates someone gets sick...it doesnt need to be roleplayed that you forgot to wipe your ass. handwaving eating just loses the "living world", same as some of the other accounting bits that are part of daily life. "i polish my armor while on night watch"

*the proper setting. i dont care what era your game is in, but in a field out in the open you are going to dark age tech. you cant turn on a faucet for water, you need water you find a stream and scoop some up if you dont have magical means of creating it.

*the world doesnt revolve around the players. "look for some reason caribou are crossing here at THIS time of year" the players are the ones whose story is told, but there are other inhabitants of the world.

*this means part of the feel includes, BEING ABLE TO INTERACT WITH ANYTHING. of course you take the consequences of your action if you poke the hornets nest and get stung.

*this being said the characters ar a part of the world. at a point in time where they surpass all others in the world and no longer function simlar, they should leave the world. the rules change for them and you should have another game that creates new characters for the new structure of the world they moved on to in regards to power and ability. SG-1 example... the Ancients ascended, the Ori split because they didnt want to follow the same rules but were still ascended.

the dirt farmer must be able to relate to the players characters otherwise something has gone wrong with the players still on the world.

so the overall feel means the PCs MUST be a part of the world, or else they need to move on to the next one. (i dont play high level because it feels like the game turns into Marvel or DC...not something i look to play.)

BECMI gives a sample of the tiers, and i didnt care too much for the I part .
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Post by the_taken »

OK, so here's a thought that occurred to me. If you don't want people to play as powerful creatures at low level, and don't want high level beasts to be converted to team Nice Guys and given magical equipment to break the game, then why not make being a powerful race the equivalent of having N magic items and give people a maximum number of magic items they can use? Kinda like what the Fragment of Gears presented. Basically use chakra points or incarnum slots or something, and have powerful races come with less slots.

An example of this would be the Marilith, which is a demon (1 chakra), naga (2 chakra), with six arms (2 chakra). Assuming a nine magic item limit, that leaves the Marilith with 4 chakras to use magic items. This doesn't affect its class levels, as you can totally be a Marilith Wizard 17. You just can't have two magic rings, an enchanted necklace, a glyphed hat, warded roped, and runed staff. The Marilith wizard would have to forgo two of those.

Another example would be an ogre, which would have one less chakra on account of being really big and strong, the equivalent of having an enlarge spell on all the time (which would take up a chakra).

Good idea? Should there be different types of chakra? Is nine a good number?
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Post by Kaelik »

I don't understand, is that supposed to be off of 3.5/Tome D&D?

Because the answer is that's stupid, and most Monsters people are going to choose are going to be worth more than eight item slots, and you can't make things cost more than eight under your system. So for example, A Maralith Wizard 12 with no item slots is like 30 times better a Human Wizard 12, and a Maralith Wizard 17 with no item slots is like 15 times better than a Human Wizard 17 with 8.

If the solution is for some hypothetical future heartbreaker, you could totally design your monsters such that they have benefits appropriate to being balanced against item costs. But I'm not sure it's any better than just designing most monsters to be approximately as good as PCs as they are as monsters of the same level, and just letting people use them when they are high enough, and work out a progression for the monsters if you want them available lower or higher.
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Post by the_taken »

As I spelled out at the beginning of this thread, I'm making a new game. This isn't a fix for D&D 3.x, however I am borrowing concepts that I find around the Den and getting it to fit together.

But I'm only one guy, and I make mistakes, which is why I'm posting here and asking for suggestions.

I want to make a better game.
Last edited by the_taken on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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