the prime funciton of each class

[shadzar]

just because they CAN be protected, doesnt meant hey should. again Fighter hit things with weapons primarily doesnt mean that wizards MUST only use spells. Wizards can use weapons, because they had to do something BEFORE wizard training, and killing a spider means hitting it with something...why would a wizard forget that to use spells?

the ability to choose a target or group isnt really a shtick. EVERYONE should have this ability if targeting is any part of the game.

[Parthenon]

Now we're talking about roles again. Which makes me want to do a bit of searching to find some previous roles that have been come up with:

So, from April 2009 you have:

1. Harrier - ranged attacks that debuff especially against melee
2. Belligerent - stops enemy movement by getting in way with melee
3. Protector - negates enemy attacks, especially against allies
4. Dazzler - debuffs enemies reducing their offence
5. Striker - dealing huge damage to enemies that are engaged with other allies or debuffed
6. Leader - adds extra weak allies to the battlefield to spread out enemy offence
7. Buffer - buffs allies
8. Controller - adjusts the battlefield to limit enemy options

The thread goes on for another 14 pages after this so I can't be bothered to follow through and see if the roles changed.

---

From June 2010 you have slightly more focused on individual powers but still possibly relevant:

1. Defensive - gives defensive bonuses to allies while doing some damage- quite stationary
2. Tactical - moves enemies around /
3. Direct - straightforward attacking, quite stationary
4. Harrying - moving in and out while attacking
5. Assault - all out attack while moving a lot

However, these were never fully defined while the terms changed a lot. All roles would do damage while buffing and debuffing.

---

From December 2010 you have either:

1. Attacker - hack and slash going from A to B attacking everyone in the way
2. Defender - stops enemies moving past them
3. Striker - avoids defenders
4. Controller - changes the battlefield, forcing attackers to move in particular directions
5. Leader - aids their allies

---

or

1. Buff - long term bonuses to allies
2. Setup - short term (1 round) large bonuses to allies
3. Debuff - long term negatives to enemies
4. Harry - short term cancellation of enemy's moves or large negatives to enemies (1 round)
5. Move - moves allies and enemies around the battlefield
6. Arrange - changes the shape of the battlefield
7. Entrap - stopping an individual enemy for a turn or more so they are effectively useless e.g. grappling, black tentacles
8. Avoid - good at escaping the effects of entrappers and arrangers

And then each class would have two of these roles, some of them melee focused and some ranged focused. All classes would also do roughly the same amount of damage.

---

Were there any other examples of class roles for an RPG that you can think of?

[shadzar]

the problem is, that many of those things arent something that a single class should do. doing better isnt always a need to protect it for a certain class.

buffs come form both wizard and cleric for example. a bought/found potion can buff. magic items buff, etc....

[Parthenon]

buffs come form both wizard and cleric for example. a bought/found potion can buff. magic items buff, etc....

And? Are you saying that there should be a one-to-one relationship between roles and classes? That class A should only ever do one thing, and no other class or item is ever allowed to do it as well?

Have you ever thought that maybe the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are really
shitty classes in terms of role protection? They can do too many different things by simply changing their spells, or in the Druid case also changing their animal companion and wildshape form.

In my opinion you should have 8-10 different roles and then each class focuses on two roles. That way you aren't doing the exact same thing every time, you have a lot better idea of what classes do and how they interact and you don't have classes like the Druid which can do melee, battlefield control, horse archery, and save-or-dies. All at once.

[shadzar]

have you read any of the class related threads i have posted? wizard and cleric ARE both caster, so not much different except most people would like the split of arcane and divine and i said druid wasnt really anything special.

thank goodness the wildshape and animal companion nonsense isnt really in D&D for a druid either. just some fluke for 3rd i guess.

[the_taken]

Hmmm...

Role:

1. Warrior: Uses strength and/or magical power to overcome enemies (forges magic equipment, uses special tricks/foils). Fights enemies in a direct fashion.
2. Arcanist: Cast spells to control environment via elementals, transmutation and enchantment. Fights enemies by controlling their environment.
3. Conjurer: Cast spells to conjure illusions, objects or creatures. Fights enemies by bringing more to the fight.
4. Shaman: Cast spells to that affect allies and enemies directly. Fights enemies by changing them or their own allies.

Tactics:

1. Buff - Enhance allies by increasing their effectiveness using spells, drugs, gear or moral.
2. Enable - Work with an ally to do something neither can do alone (co-operative abilities?)
3. Debuff - Change enemies to make them weaker, using curses, poisons, moral or special injuries.
4. Harry - Negate the actions of enemies by either counter-spelling, removing equipment, hampering movement, or threatening consequences.
5. Avoid - Negate the effect of enemies' actions using either superior defensive equipment, special abilities, or situational magic.
6. Move - Get yourself, allies or enemies where you want the to be using either transportation magic, taunts, mind control or picking them up and throwing them.
7. Arrange - Change the layout of the battlefield to grant yourself advantages by either bringing in terrain features, changing existing features, or removing them, or by making illusions of new, removed or changed features.
8. Leadership - Bring more allies to the fight, whether they are hired muscle, trained beasts, animated dead, summoned monsters, conjured elementals, or even illusionary duplicates.
9. Entrap - Remove enemies from play temporarily using either traps, spells, illusions, bribes or a properly used battlefield control spell (Arrange).

Attack Types

1. Power - Hit something with the biggest, nastiest attack possible to take it out in as few hits as possible.
2. Speed - Hit something as often as possible to wear it down.
3. Reach - Hit something from a distance to avoid retaliation.
4. Study - Learn the weak point before hitting something for massive damage.
5. Trick - Have a special way to hit certain things in a superior manner. Things like:
   • Gaseous Creatures
   • Liquid Creatures
   • Disappearing Creatures
   • Heavily Armoured Creatures
   • Flying Creatures
   • Burrowing Creatures
   • Swimming Creatures
   • Fast Creatures
   • Lots of Creatures
   • Regenerating Creatures
   • Unusually Tough Creatures
   • Bigger Creatures
   • Smaller Creatures
   • Invisible Creatures

Defence Types

1. Thick Armour - Reduce the impact of individual attacks, decreasing the effectiveness of Speedy attackers.
2. Agility - Reduce the chances of being hit, decreasing the effectiveness of Powerful attackers.
3. Special Defence - Remove a weak point.
4. Form Change - Became tougher by forcing enemies to have a special trick to defeat you.
   • Gaseous Form
   • Liquid Form
   • Disappear
   • Flight
   • Burrowing
   • Regeneration
   • Unusual Toughness
   • Invisibility

If you only get one from each list, that's over 7000 combinations.

[erik]

I like the list Taken. =-)

There's a couple that I'm not sure if they belong tho.

Tactic 2. Enable. I can't think of how I'd be using Enable to describe something that wouldn't be covered already by another schtick.

Attack d. Study. It seems like this might just be a buff tactic.

[edit: also, thanks Parthenon for summarizing all those up!]

[the_taken]

I imagine Enable Tactics are something like Mounted Combat, where a Horse/Griffon/Dragon/Sentient Comet enables a Knight to use his Lance Charge or Mounted Moon Lance Dive, and stuff. Other characters could also have Enable abilities, like two Monks needing to work together to use Flower Peacock Annihilation Dance, or a Rogue being able to work with anyone to pull off a Sneak Attack or Distraction.

Study Attacks are more for characters that don't rush in and use their basic abilities all willy nilly. Imagine that Fox, Peppy, Slippy, and Falco all use the same equipment and share many similar abilities, but Peppy has Study abilities that let him watch a fight for a bit and figure out a week point in particular enemies. If it's just Fox and Flaco fighting the Giant Mecha Space Crab, they'll zip around it and shoot at it for twenty minutes. With Peppy there, he'll point out that's its eyes are a weak point, being a less armoured area covering the power generators and computerized synapses. Peppy can then focus his fire on that area and take the GMSC out down a little faster, and can easily point out to his teammates the weakness as well... Not sure how to handle that mechanically.

[Username17]

Warrior: Uses strength and/or magical power to overcome enemies (forges magic equipment, uses special tricks/foils). Fights enemies in a direct fashion.
Arcanist: Cast spells to control environment via elementals, transmutation and enchantment. Fights enemies by controlling their environment.
Conjurer: Cast spells to conjure illusions, objects or creatures. Fights enemies by bringing more to the fight.
Shaman: Cast spells to that affect allies and enemies directly. Fights enemies by changing them or their own allies.

These are horseshit. First of all "Arcanist" is a theme, secondly elementals appears to be pretty similar to conjuring. But most importantly, everything they do is a bundle of tactics. Shaman is buff and debuff, for example.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

I would classify Arcanist, Conjurer, and Shaman as "fragile fuckers that do magical shit at range"
So that's one class; the Mage.

Melee classes (such a sad trope) should within every right have both the ability to protect themselves from ranged attacks, get closer to targets quickly, and prevent their targets from harming fellow allies.

[Parthenon]

have you read any of the class related threads i have posted? wizard and cleric ARE both caster, so not much different except most people would like the split of arcane and divine and i said druid wasnt really anything special.

Bull. Shit.

Absolutely complete fucking bullshit.

"Caster" is a method. It is how they do their class roles. They use magic to buff, or they use magic to do damage, or they use magic to entrap the enemy. It would be like saying that a Barbarian is a "Muscles" role - absolutely fucking useless since the Ranger, the Fighter, the Monk, the Rogue and every other non-caster is a "Muscles" role.

One of the main problems with D&D classes is that method and role are very confused. To use the June 2010 definitions, in 3.x the Barbarian does the Assault role, the archer Ranger does the Direct role, the Rogue does the Harrying role, while the Cleric uses Divine magic to perform any of the roles.

---

stuff

I don't like this. You've relabelled "Role" as "Tactic" which is fine, but labelled your example classes as "Role". Then, you start to talk about non-combat roles for one class but none of the others. As well as that you have some classes using one single tactic while others use multiple. And you still ignore the melee guy by not giving him an actual tactic.

The Arcanist and Warrior are really, really vague and generic, not even good enough to be a Theme. You seem to be saying that every single melee PC uses the same tactics and does the same role. Bullshit.

You could rewrite it using your roles as something like:

Example classes:

• Berserker (Avoid, Debuff) - uses anger or their link to other planes to change their body in order to use their abilities to get in close and hitting the enemy so hard they are weakened.
  Method/Theme: Warp-spasms (riastrad)- they get really angry and break stuff, their warp-spasm allowing them to shrug off enemy Move and Arrange tactics.
  Tactics: Avoid- they can dodge and push through the environment to get to enemies, and then escape from traps or being surrounded. Debuff- they get special attacks that debuff the enemy, as well as every hit being so forceful it knocks them off balance.
• Conjurer (Arrange, Leadership) - summons objects and creatures to fight for them and arrange the battlefield to their liking.
  Method/Theme: Infernal Summoning.
  Tactics: Arrange- they can summon walls of hell-bush or flame to get in the way, or summon a wave of acid to dig away the ground into a trench. Leadership- they can summon up several imps, hell-beasts and lesser through to greater demons to fill the battlefield with allies.
• Shaman (Buff, Debuff) - summons up nature spirits to aid the party before shooting bolts of basic damage at the enemy. These spirits don't get in the way but grasp or confuse the enemy, while empowering their allies.
  Method/Theme: Nature spirits.
  Tactics: Buff- nature spirits can flow into weapons, increasing damage, or help push allies out of harms way. Debuff- the nature spirits can pull against enemy's arms, slowing and weakening their attacks, or they can fly in front of their faces to distract the enemy.

This way you have a theme and a character to the class while actually using the Tactics you list.

[erik]

I'll take blame for at least some of the Arcanist shit though my original use was intended to refer to elementals as in blasting evocations, not summoning the outsider entities... I see how there was ambiguity.

I was trying to start with 4 classes that did particular actions, then bundling on to those 4 classes a power source/descriptor for how they executed those effects, and how their combination could basically describe most character classes that people desire to play. I did use the word role for the classes, even though I was thinking of it from a different approach, but was not as judicious in my terminology as I ought have been.

[shadzar]

One of the main problems with D&D classes is that method and role are very confused.

i would say a main problem that led to 4th was people thinking a class defined some role. you want the cleric to be a healbot and only a healbot?

ANY race of ANY class, should be able to act in ANY role. that is the point of the game.

no class should be forced upon to act in a certain way, that is how the cleric ended up CoDzilla in 3rd to open the possibilities people saw for using clerics, and piss on the idiots who thought a cleric should only be a healbot.

[the_taken]

OK, scraping the Roles. Actually thinking about made me realize that those were actually a combination of tactics, theme and power source; classes already built. Also, you guys pointed it out. Good.

Anyway, that brings up the next list. Power Sources. It's rather important for players to decide where their character's power comes from. Off the top of my head there's:

• Study/Train really hard
• Be born a with powers
• Have a Very Magical Person Piss/Bleed/Cry on you.
• Visit or come from a place that's very magical.
• Take magical stuff from other magical people.

Obviously, these are very broad categories, and do nothing to give a character theme. Judging from what I've seen on character creation across the internet, D&D players have a lot of trouble coming up with a unique theme for their character. Is it because classes are created from a theme built in, or is that an attempted solution to a deeper problem?

[shadzar]

it really is because MANY people coming to D&D now want the mix-max character. there wasnt as wide spread asshole-ism as to try to force a cleric be a healbot as people make out, but it was some and that became vocal when presented in a Dragon article or letter to the forum.

people were allowed to think and act in this manner, rather than told.... stop playing the numbers. they see this "win condition" and try to make the best way to win, and then expect a DM to have to respond to and allow for their choices to be useful ALL the time.

take the wizard who chooses a quirky spell, and never got to use it? this player feels bad, rather than jsut say oops it isnt useful ALL the time, they think the DM is out to get them.

cleric was the ebst at healing, so all people wanted to allow them to do was heal, and the DMs allowed this attitude, rather than the PHB describing things in a manner that lets players know they do NOT need a cleric and the game will work without one.

too much stress was put on ALL classes being needed, and no discussion on how to do without. in general YES once of each of the prime classes is a good idea, but the game can work without it, you just have to understand how to make it work, and the DM also has to make it work...which is part of playing the game.

you can run in Ravenloft without a cleric, and even fight the undead. just the players need to change how they play from rush thought it, to more decision making.

like your list seems to overlap very closely even on those vague ideas.

born with and come from place high enriched with magic.. pretty much the same. then also bleed/cry/etc is similar enough to fit a single group.

*Magic is a part of you...or... you are part magical creature

that really isnt or shouldnt be a power source or it would be one for SO many races, it cant really define a class. it is a good thought process outside of the "roles" but took an accidental detour somewhere.

study/train.. everyone will do, but is good opposition for magically endowed.

steal magic, anyone can do, which then leaves only with those 2 real power sources.

your power sources then arent really different than what already exists.

Fighter/thief: non-magical
Wizard/Cleric: magical

both can borrow or use magic "stuff".

but its REALLY a better direction than roles to think about this, because how many roles are there in the game depends on what you do in the game. in combat, out of combat roles; there is probably 1000s of little niche roles, and not all need some special class to fulfill that role.

or have i mistaken what you mean by "theme"?

[Parthenon]

Power sources, eh?

Off the top of my head, there could be:

1. Parasitic - take power directly from others like a Spellthief or Vampire. You could have a mage-killer that passively soaks up enemy spells and self-buffs then melees them to death, or just hand-waving away actually sacrificing enemies between battles.
        e.g. Spellthief (Harry, Entrap) - sucks up enemy magic and can start to drain spellcasters, stopping them from moving or acting.
2. Lunar/Solar - in a world with werewolves you can use the sun and moon as an actual power source. (however I can't think of a thematic class for this, and the best name I can come up with is Lunatic)
3. Unlife/Undead - necromancy, decay based debuffs/harrying, and buffing to become more undead-like. Controlling dead against will.
        e.g. Necromancer (Leadership, Move) - has some undead following and can summon more from dragon teeth etc. These undead aren't very good at doing damage but they are good at shoving around enemies.
4. Actually Dead - deceased spirits, previous reincarnation's knowledge and ability. Working with the dead.
        e.g. Witchdoctor (Buff, Avoid) - empowers allies with ancestral spirits, spirits warn the Witchdoctor so they can avoid effects
5. Gaia as in the spiritual embodiment of the world. Getting bored, just going to list them now.
        e.g. Druid (Arrange, Move) - controls the foundations of the world, shaping the ground and using it to move around allies and enemies.
6. Nature
        e.g. Stormchaser (Move, Enable) - with gusts of wind that throw around enemies, lightning strikes that stun enough to provoke attacks and lifting them enough to expose weak points.
7. Gods
        e.g. Paladin (Buff, Avoid) - by gods-given grace they ignore enemy effects while their glowing aura ennobles the spirit, buffing their allies.
8. Warp-spasms/Riastrad
        e.g. Barbarian (Avoid, Debuff) - goes all Hulk-like, shrugs off effects and hits so hard the enemy is weakened.
9. Demons/Hell
        e.g. Conjurer (Arrange, Leadership) - summons hellish terrain and demonic forces.
10. Training & Experience
         e.g. Monk (Harry, Entrap) - by grappling, tripping or throwing, this unarmed combatant confounds the enemy and disables their attacks.
11. Bloodlines (bad power source for a class)
12. Psychic
         e.g. Psion (Enable, Harry) - messes with enemy minds at the right time to negate their actions, while creating a link between allies that when focused can give allies extra options.
13. Arcane
         e.g. Beguiler (Debuff, Arrange) - confuse and distract enemies, while creating illusionary battlefields.
14. Music
         e.g. Bard (Buff, Entrap) - songs to buff, or songs focused on one that confuse or fascinate.
15. Dragons
         e.g. Dragonborn (Move, Buff) - through the power of Fus-Ro-Dah enemies are moved, and shouting hard enough makes your allies more effective. Just stay away from arrows to the knee.
16. Faerie
         e.g. Pacted (Harry, Enable) - by making pacts with the Fey you have more and more fairy allies with you that stop enemy attacks and open enemies up for attack.
17. Darkness
         e.g. Shadowmage (Debuff, Leadership) - shrouds the enemy in darkness that your allies can see through, weakens them in the gloom, summons up shadow creatures.
18. etc

With 15 classes quickly suggested for each power source I have every role covered by at least three classes. However I do have a couple of duplicates- Psion and Pacted have the same roles and even worse, both start with P. Witchdoctor and Paladin also have the same roles.

[shadzar]

many of those seem more like why a RACE exists rather than something that can be the reason a class exists, and as you say some overlap which means they shouldnt both exists in those cases.

[JonSetanta]

What about the division between "a magic source that does magical things" and "a nonmagical source that does things almost defined as magic but still works in an AntiMagic Field"

Maneuvers, for instance, that do things like teleport by shadow or breath dragon fire.

[shadzar]

What about the division between "a magic source that does magical things" and "a nonmagical source that does things almost defined as magic but still works in an AntiMagic Field"

Maneuvers, for instance, that do things like teleport by shadow or breath dragon fire.

your question doesnt make sense.

"teleport by shadow" would be a magical mode of movement.

Salamanders, dragons (half/etc), lizardfolk, etc.. probably not fit for defining a class function, as these are racial features.

[the_taken]

You wouldn't. AMFs shut down magic stuff, of which all high-level things are. It would only leave mundane crap at the bottom levels working, like Alchemist's fire, swords, bacon and diplomacy (sans diplomancy).

[JonSetanta]

your question doesnt make sense.

"teleport by shadow" would be a magical mode of movement.

I realize you're a grognard but at least try to broaden your horizons.

This is from the Book of Weeaboo Fightan Majick, aka Tome of Battle.
Do you see mention of it being magical?

SHADOW JAUNT
Shadow Hand [Teleportation]
Level: Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: 50 ft.
Target: You

A cloud of shadow energy engulfs you, spins into a tiny mote, and disappears. A moment later, this shadowy cloud appears across the battlefield and expels you from it.

As part of this maneuver, you disappear in a cloud of darkness and teleport up to 50 feet away. You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination. If you attempt to use this maneuver to move into an occupied space, you do not move, and the maneuver is expended but has no effect.

[shadzar]

anime inspired crap should be left for the anime module of 5th, not in the core of it.

also why do you claim this isnt magic and present me with a spell description?

Dimension Door

(Alteration)


Range: 0 Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: The caster Saving Throw: None
By means of a dimension door spell, the wizard instantly transfers himself up to 30 yards distance per level of experience. This special form of teleportation allows for no error, and the wizard always arrives at exactly the spot desired--whether by simply visualizing the area (within spell transfer distance, of course) or by stating direction such as, "300 yards straight downward," or, "upward to the northwest, 45 degree angle, 420 yards." If the wizard arrives in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, he remains trapped in the Astral Plane. If distances are stated and the spellcaster arrives with no support below his feet (i.e., in mid-air), falling and damage result unless further magical means are employed. All that the wizard wears or carries, subject to a maximum weight equal to 500 pounds of nonliving matter, or half that amount of living matter, is transferred with the spellcaster. Recovery from use of a dimension door spell requires one round.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

why does this look so familiar to what you quote?

dont try to whitewash magic and claim it isnt magic anymore cause you stole it from anime, and the psionics similar things just dont fit and should not be included either.

[Ektagliaresia]

What about the division between "a magic source that does magical things" and "a nonmagical source that does things almost defined as magic but still works in an AntiMagic Field"

Maneuvers, for instance, that do things like teleport by shadow or breath dragon fire.

"Magic" and "Magic in everything but name" isn't a division that needs to be made. The fact that ToB maneuvers aren't magic isn't a good design choice, and reinforces the impairing belief that a martial class cannot also have magical abilities.

[Stubbazubba]

I don't think ToB helps itself by pretending that magical effects aren't magic. Shadow Jaunt doesn't even pretend to be about super speed which just looks like teleportation, no, you are actually engulfed by a cloud of shadow energy, which disappears and then pops you out somewhere else. That's cool, and it's magic, and there's not really a strong reason to attribute it to anything else.

[JonSetanta]

I don't think ToB helps itself by pretending that magical effects aren't magic. Shadow Jaunt doesn't even pretend to be about super speed which just looks like teleportation, no, you are actually engulfed by a cloud of shadow energy, which disappears and then pops you out somewhere else. That's cool, and it's magic, and there's not really a strong reason to attribute it to anything else.

You're right, it should have been superspeed (and as a move action, to allow a hit as well) just like in all my favorite animus, but that's just how it is.

Shad here is rejecting the evidence presented, but whatever. There it is.

A nonmagical source.