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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:No, the stupid thing to do is to assume that when someone says "hey, I disagree with you on X," what they actually mean is, "everything you say is retarded." If I had wanted to say that, I would have just said that instead.
If X is "A Wizard cannot conquer Zhentil Keep because of 450 level 1 Warriors with bows." then saying "But they can fly 1000ft in the air, or teleport away or cast windwall" is in fact a disagreement on X, but an incredibly stupid one.

If you don't disagree with X, you should not say you disagree with X in the first place, especially not if you don't even know what X is, IE if you have no fucking idea what someone in the thread is talking about, don't post in the thread contradicting them.
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Post by DSMatticus »

P1: "If it has four legs, it is a mammal. Dogs have four legs. Dogs are mammals."
P2: "Crocodiles have four legs."
P1: "Look at this moron, he doesn't think dogs are mammals."
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Post by Koumei »

More like:

P1: A Wizard cannot conquer Zhentil Keep because of 450 level 1 Warriors with bows.
P2: But they can fly 1000ft in the air, or teleport away or cast windwall
P1: Look at this moron, he thinks a Wizard can conquer Zhentil Keep, apparently because he can run away/turtle, which he thinks can beat the 450 level 1 Warriors.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

DSM You could at least pretend to be honest. My statement was true. Your silly little person one example is false. When someone says something that is true, and you quote them and tell them they are wrong about it, you are in the wrong. Yes, even if you don't know what the originally said because you are an incompetent moron who refuses to actually read the thread and make pronouncements based on incomplete information.
Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."
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Post by FatR »

K wrote:They say that they can destroy cities, but are silent on how they actually do that because they can't.
Any of the ways to cast Control Winds, any of the ways to get AoE spam at negligible cost (from yourself or minions). Either your mind is literally falling apart from some illness or you are trolling.
K wrote:No one has proved anything, in argument or practical tests.
Except they did.
K wrote:TThey say that they could destroy Zhentil keep by just getting a few archmages together, but no one is actually saying how they fight off the other archmages living in Zhentil Keep or even a AMF rogue or cleric or even the mid-level characters living in the city, or even how they stay alive with their soul not trapped after the first two minutes.
So, basically their task boils down to dueling high-level spellcasters (mid-level characters just get killed by whatever minions the attacking teams magics up, and allow me to laugh to AMF rogue, as his way of committing suicide is hilariously expensive). Yeah, high-level spellcasters can threaten and counter other high-level spellcasters, big news here. Except the Team Good simply has far more and better guys, because real Team Evil bigshots in FR are uncooperative recluses or have no reason to help Zhents.
And care to say, how they will get dead and with their soul trapped in the first two minutes? I mean, fairly, by putting existing writeups for Zhents against the existing writeups for the Harpers/Elminster and his harem asskicking team, not by beating on poor NPC cripples with somewhat optimized tricks.

Oh, and also: "balance of power" that prevents bigshots on either side from actively assaulting each other doesn't fucking exist in FR. That's a fact. Team Good and Team Evil actively attack each other and major upheavals are regular. Except that they tend to attack each other in a way that 5th-level characters do, not in a way 25th-level characters do.
Last edited by FatR on Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Kaelik wrote:My statement was true.
Fair enough, that is a legitimate difference between the hypothetical I posed and the actual situation.

[Discussion about whether dogs are animals.]
P1: "All mammals with legs are animals. Dogs are mammals with legs. Dogs are animals." (All true statements.)
P2: "Legs? Legs are irrelevant here."
P1: "So you don't think dogs are animals?"

Or let's just skip the hypothetical discussion, and go to what you actually said/implied.

[Discussion about whether a wizard can take Zhentil Keep.]
Kaelik: "A wizard cannot handle a keep with 450 level 1 warriors with bows. Zhentil Keep has 450 level 1 warriors with bows. A wizard cannot take Zhentil keep." (All true statements, and I think it's a fair representation of what you said/implied. Emphasis on bows mine.)
DSM: "Bows? Bows are irrelevant here."
Kaelik: "So you think a wizard can take Zhentil Keep?

Does your little leap sound any more reasonable now? You said warriors 'with bows,' and I said 'you know, bows are meaningless,' and then you started spewing other shit, and that's where we are now. I suppose I could have removed the need for any firing brain cells on the reader's part by bolding 'with bows' or making that the entire quoted text, but I thought people would understand that my post was about wizards fucking over archery when everything I talked about was the way wizards can fuck over archery, even in the context of a keep battle.
FatR wrote:Any of the ways to cast Control Winds, any of the ways to get AoE spam at negligible cost (from yourself or minions).
With calling spells nerfed (an assumption he made), having armies of minions/useful minions like that is hard and DM fiat.

But control winds, while awesomer than I originally thought, does not seem to be at all movable. Which means you have to be able to spam it a bunch to destroy a city. And spam it a bunch at CL 12, 15, or 18 depending on the weather. And it does nothing to help in a keep battle except clear people off the ramparts, and any big cities also probably have such keeps.
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Post by Swordslinger »

Kaelik wrote: If X is "A Wizard cannot conquer Zhentil Keep because of 450 level 1 Warriors with bows." then saying "But they can fly 1000ft in the air, or teleport away or cast windwall" is in fact a disagreement on X, but an incredibly stupid one.

If you don't disagree with X, you should not say you disagree with X in the first place, especially not if you don't even know what X is, IE if you have no fucking idea what someone in the thread is talking about, don't post in the thread contradicting them.
The fact that you can teleport away is significant because it means that you can win a war via attrition. If you go in there and take out a bunch of warriors, then leave while losing nothing, you can come back the very next day at full power and kill more people.

Though really, not that any number of level 1 warriors with bows would do anything since you have protection from arrows and greater invisibility, both of which would make you pretty much immune to low level archers. But you may have to whittle down the mid level guys depending on how big the fortress is.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

What about fabricate/shrink item/polymorph any object to drop giant metal balls on stuff from high up in the air?
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Post by sake »

So... moving on from the three goddamn pages of circle jerking about how wizards break or don't break a game world, let's talk about an actual PF book for once. Such as this pile of fail:

"Mage Bullets (Su): A spellslinger is adept at transferring
spell energy into his arcane gun attacks. As a swift action, he
can sacrifice a spell and transform that energy into a weapon
bonus equal to the level of the spell sacrificed on a single barrel
of his firearm. With that weapon bonus the spellslinger can
apply any of the following to his arcane bond: enhancement
bonuses (up to +5) and dancing, defending, distance, f laming,
f laming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, merciful, seeking, shock,
shocking burst, spell storing, thundering, vicious, and wounding.
An arcane gun gains no benefit from having two of the same
weapon special abilities on the same barrel. The effect of
the mage bullets ability lasts for a number of minutes equal
to the level of the spell sacrificed, or until this
ability is used again to assign the barrel different
enhancements. This ability replaces cantrips,
but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and
read magic cantrips and places them in his
spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.

School of the Gun: The rigor and care required by
arcane guns is so great that a spellslinger forsakes four
schools of magic. These opposition schools are chosen at
1st level and cannot be changed later. A spellslinger who
prepares a spell from his opposition school must use two
spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. In addition, the
spellslinger takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made
when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his
opposition schools as a prerequisite. This ability replaces
arcane school."

So you lose cantrips, and ban four spell schools for a weak gimmick on the fly weapon buff that's could be duplicated by just casting magic weapon, flame weapon, etc AND you still have to deal with the bullshit ammo and weapon breakage rules

So not only is the Gunslinger worse in almost every way from just playing an archer, it's 'gun mage' archetype is worse than just playing a cleric, or eldritch knight multclass with a bow.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Four spell schools? What the shit?

I'm getting vibes from over in the nWoD thread where the book warns that taking two physical disciplines is munchkin and bad but you can roam the land with Domination and auto-win.

Is that a prestige class or alternate wizard? And these are the only features?
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Post by sake »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Four spell schools? What the shit?

Is that a prestige class or alternate wizard? And these are the only features?
It's one of those alternate wizard archetype feature thingies. Here's the rest of the features

"Arcane Gun (Su): The spellslinger gains the Exotic
Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his
firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal onehanded
or two-handed firearms in the hands of others,
as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger
imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger’s hands, they
both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic.
At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to
have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger
chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired
through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a
×3 critical hit multiplier."

"A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone,
line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts
through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if
any) is a bonus to the spell’s attack rolls or to the spell’s
saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this
method. If any of the spells’ attack rolls result in a natural
1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw
made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane
gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already
has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun
explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has
the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that
type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with
multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors
to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The
blast is centered on a single intersection within the
spellslinger’s space (spellslinger’s choice) and deals 1d6
points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage
per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast
other than the spellslinger can make a Ref lex saving throw
to halve the damage. The Ref lex save DC is calculated using
the spell level of the spell being sacrificed."

"A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start
of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger
attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is
destroyed. This ability replaces arcane bond.
Gunsmith: The spellslinger gains the Gunsmithing
feat (see page 103) and a battered gun that is identical to
the gun a gunslinger (see page 9) gains at first level. If the
spellslinger chooses the ability to attune two arcane guns,
he still only starts out with one gun. Like a gunslinger, a
spellslinger can use the Gunsmithing feat to restore his
battered gun. This ability replaces scribe scroll."

In all fairness some of it's not bad, it's just not worth banning four damn schools for what's mostly just a few neat flavor abilities and saving a few feats. Also the artwork for it is funny as hell, it looks like someone's Shadowrun character dumped in a D&D book.

And don't even get me started on the monsters resisting your gun so hard it explodes bullshit...
Last edited by sake on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Pathfinder seems to love broken guns.
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Post by Maxus »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Pathfinder seems to love broken guns.
"THE GUNS OF THE TIME ARE SO UNRELIABLE IT'S REALISTIC AHHHHH OOOHHH WE JUST WROTE FIVE PARAGRAPHS EXPLAINING HOW YOUR GUN COULD FUCK UP *FAPFAPFAPFAP*"
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by Archmage »

Paizo just had to appease people who are offended by the flavor of guns in their pseudo-medieval kitchen sink universe. They can't be a strict upgrade from other ranged weapons, so they're taking the usual approach of giving them some advantage in exchange for a pile of weird restrictions and nods to "realism."

The inclusion of firearms in D&D is just one of those things that always comes saddled with funky subsystems.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

What the hell is the AoE on a pathfinder "blast"? Because getting a DC boost on Color Spray in exchange for a daily Force Grenade or two looks to be a potential win/win.

Also, does Mending fix the broken condition or do you need Make Whole?
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by FatR »

DSMatticus wrote: With calling spells nerfed (an assumption he made), having armies of minions/useful minions like that is hard and DM fiat.
Well, if we start nerfing wizards's spells... aren't we assuming that they are too badass? Yes I know that calling is broken if abused, but in this case it is just a replacement for an unlimited-charge item of Fireballs to strafe cities and mooks you don't like to your heart's content.

Of course, after you kill their head honchos. By a teleport ambush in core (having a reserve team if their public personas will happen to be simulacrums or whatever; remember, we're talking about a whole bunch of archmages teaming up here...), non-core options remove teleport ambushes as a viable tactic, but add more hilarity, starting from being practically undetectable, except by your peers.
Last edited by FatR on Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by FatR »

sake wrote: So you lose cantrips, and ban four spell schools for a weak gimmick on the fly weapon buff that's could be duplicated by just casting magic weapon, flame weapon, etc AND you still have to deal with the bullshit ammo and weapon breakage rules
My mind had just exploded. Even their monks hate pales before that.
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Post by Kaelik »

Swordslinger wrote:
Kaelik wrote: If X is "A Wizard cannot conquer Zhentil Keep because of 450 level 1 Warriors with bows." then saying "But they can fly 1000ft in the air, or teleport away or cast windwall" is in fact a disagreement on X, but an incredibly stupid one.

If you don't disagree with X, you should not say you disagree with X in the first place, especially not if you don't even know what X is, IE if you have no fucking idea what someone in the thread is talking about, don't post in the thread contradicting them.
The fact that you can teleport away is significant because it means that you can win a war via attrition. If you go in there and take out a bunch of warriors, then leave while losing nothing, you can come back the very next day at full power and kill more people.

Though really, not that any number of level 1 warriors with bows would do anything since you have protection from arrows and greater invisibility, both of which would make you pretty much immune to low level archers. But you may have to whittle down the mid level guys depending on how big the fortress is.
Unless it takes less time to train 450 level 1 Warriors than it takes for you to kill them, or the place is some sort of place like Zhentil Keep, that regularly has level 20 Wizards who come back every few days, and can come back, and be told about you, and then they wait for you.
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Post by A Man In Black »

This is a tremendously stupid argument and also what the fuck does Forgotten Realms have to do with Pathfinder?
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Post by K »

FatR wrote:
K wrote:They say that they can destroy cities, but are silent on how they actually do that because they can't.
Any of the ways to cast Control Winds, any of the ways to get AoE spam at negligible cost (from yourself or minions). Either your mind is literally falling apart from some illness or you are trolling.
K wrote:No one has proved anything, in argument or practical tests.
Except they did.
Control Winds? Seriously? Small amounts of non-lethal damage are not going to affect fortified buildings, though you might knock out any soldiers not behind fortifications(ie none, because Line of Effect rules are a bitch). They call it Zhentil Keep for a reason. At best, you are going to murder a bunch of cobblers and bakers before the Druid spell your archmage is somehow casting gets dispelled.

Why can't you wrap your mind around the fact that all it takes is a mid-level rogue with some no save spells on scrolls to basically turn an archmage into hamburger? I mean, have you even read the spell lists? There are no save spells that do a bunch of damage and stun with no save. There are spells that rip off all protections and destroy magic items with no check, or just turn off magic outright. There are spells that do lethal amounts of ability damage with no save. The list is long and there is no way to protect against it.

Forgotten Realms even has several spells that create what are effectively semi-permanent dead magic zones. Drop one on the twelve archmages that show up and and then round them up with the cavalry.

Even calling spam is unimpressive considering that Team Evil can do it too. Hell, since they are evil they can just have demons eat Shadowdale while Eliminister is trying to destroy Zhentil Keep. Let's see how many children he's willing to have murdered for each Zhent he kills.

Any tactic that Team Good has, Team Evil has as well.

Assuming that Team Evil can't fight back is retarded, and that's the basis of the whole idea that mages are gods. You have failed to prove anything other than gross failures in logic.

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Post by fectin »

This is idiotic. Why would Elminster et al. even want to destroy the keep?
As far as I can tell, it's the place evil goes and hangs out instead of murdering children.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

shut the fuck up you worthless turds nobody gives two shits about zhentil keep. more pathfinder hate less pointless wanking
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Post by Doom »

Indeed, perhaps you can move the amusing (but off-topic) Zhentil Keep wankery to another thread?
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Post by Koumei »

Man, their Gun Mage is hilariously bad. Even worse than their gun rules in general.

Come to think of it, PP made a really shitty Gun Mage too, in Iron Kingdoms. Is there any Gun Mage that doesn't suck?

That said, I can understand people not liking guns in their magical medieval. But the solution to that is to not include them, not to make them so bad nobody uses them. They should have grown a spine and either said "The closest to guns are crossbows and wands. Deal with it. u mad?" or "PF has guns. Deal with it. They are roughly those of X period in history, and are Y effective, in a not-too-complex-and-annoying way." (if they're really good, adding "Often, small groups actually do run about with guns as awesome SpecOps teams, taking out melee suckers by the boatload. Your PCs are like a team of SAS.")

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ripsaw-glaive

Weird. Note the annoying duration thing, and how for all its fanciness, the effect is... PLUS TWO DAMAGE! (Yes I know that actually matters at level 1)

Would such a thing even work? I can't help but picture there being a problem where the spinning blade works via constant pressure (as it freely rotates, swinging it hard could just stop the rotation and make the blade "bounce" back the other way?) and the point of a normal glaive is to swing hard and lop limbs off. It's the chainsword problem.
Last edited by Koumei on Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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