More Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[JonSetanta]

Also found Wish and the Word here, for a non-CharOp commentary: http://www.rpg-post.com/ubbthreads.php/ ... s_D_D.html

[Leress]

So what is your forum, meg? I might have to check that out(and feel much better now that you said you thought I was fairly awesome.)

Here...
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/

[K]

I personally can't approve of any web stalking of Autumn, despite any old beef I might have had with her.

Personally, she struck me as someone who was bad at conflict resolution. The fact that she took a role that meant a lot to her and it required that skill is humorous, but also very sad.

[JonSetanta]

Here...
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/

I skimmed a few threads and it looks like a nice crowd over there. Even in the char-opping sections there isn't even too much of debate, let alone Acid-vomiting Flamewars of Hate.
However, from my observations that just might be the case due to lessened public awareness that such a forum exists.
CharOp has its monstrous, insular, idiot-savant horde because The Wiz is a well-known sinkhole of RPG forum posters. Everyone knows where The Wiz is so, as a result, it will attract a phenomenally greater proportion of mindfilthposter.

[Username17]

My experience is that you don't get a lot of flames, but you did get a lot of "You can't be right because you are wrong." arguments.

It's actually more effective at isolating and rejecting outsiders than simply calling people ass holes. Radical Taoist's impassioned pleas to get us to reject our conclusions because he said so were all the more infuriating because natives of the board would come out of the wood work to support his "argument" on the grounds that he was a local.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Personally, she struck me as someone who was bad at conflict resolution.

Heh, sounds like a Denizen.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1033763

It's hard to imagine a game run like that.

[Voss]

Do you mean with the:
stupid monster characters,
playing as monsters in Ravenloft (which pretty much kills the point of the setting),
playing with people that are just that stupid,
or playing with someone who will whine endlessly if he isn't getting the 'best special deal' out of all the players?

[Psychic Robot]

To be fair, there are severe problems with the Wish and the Word. Yes, the rules abuse is very, very clever, and it demonstrates how much fail the developers are made of, but they don't hold up under RAW. Really, I didn't see any issue with a "you're outsiders so we don't want you!" mentality, but legitimate complaints.

[Username17]

To be fair, there are severe problems with the Wish and the Word. Yes, the rules abuse is very, very clever, and it demonstrates how much fail the developers are made of, but they don't hold up under RAW. Really, I didn't see any issue with a "you're outsiders so we don't want you!" mentality, but legitimate complaints.

The complaints that they said broke the builds were:

• Wish can't work the way it explicitly says that it works in the PHB because no DM would allow that. (I'm not kidding, this was the biggest complaint, which is insulting on the face of it)
• Caster Level doesn't multiply out on Ur Priest because it shouldn't.
• Thought Bottles save your specific level configuration despite the fact that they don't say they do that and explicitly say that they save your XP totals instead.

The problem that I had was that the things people were hammering on were just pathetic as cock block attempts. I mean, there was some question about using Warlock levels to qualify for prestige classes which was eventually errataed against us, so technically the builds aren't legal anymore. And that nitpickery, while meaningless, would at least be honest and a potential way to get the things disbarred from the contest.

But people went on tirades dozens of posts long on the subject of Wish, Caster Level, and Thought Bottle - and those just weren't arguments that they could win. Part of it really is that the people they have (had?) over there as rules lawyers weren't nearly as good as they thought they were. Seriously, being the best rules lawyer at your game store doesn't necessarily make you hot shit or even passable on a world stage. But the problem was that the regulars closed ranks around these complaints despite the fact that page citations had been provided to the first barrage of complaints.

---

Because let's face it: Pun Pun is not a legal build and never has been. The actual text in Serpent Kingdoms is fucked up, and it's an unbounded method of gaining Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for anyone with access to shapechange. But it never says that you can dumpster dive through sourcebooks granting yourself abilities. Hell, it doesn't even allow you to give the ability to give people abilities to yourself (which is the core of Pun Pun in any case).

But Pun Pun, which is an illegal build made by a regular, gained instant acceptance; while The Wish and The Word, which is a then-legal build made by foreigners, was angrily rejected on downright laughable charges.

-Username17

[Jerry]

Hearing about Ur Priests, Thought Bottles, and Pun-Pun makes me satisfied and content with Core only games (supplemented by some of Frank and K's ideas).

P.S. How many D&D books do you have, Frank?! I swear that your Wish and Word involved at least 6, not to mention countless third party books that you commented on in these boards.

P.P.S. This is the best thread ever on WotC: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1027444

[virgil]

It's times like these I wish I had Serpent Kingdoms, so I could check the text on Manipulate Form, since I coulda sworn it could grant the target any extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability.

[Username17]

It's times like these I wish I had Serpent Kingdoms, so I could check the text on Manipulate Form, since I coulda sworn it could grant the target any extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability.

It gives you "a" supernatural/spell-like/ or extraordinary ability. What list this is drawn from is not stated, nor are explicit limits granted. But it gives a sample list, and they are crap like "big ears: +2 to listen checks." So really the book gives you the ability to grant someone absolutely any ability at all, including ones you just made up, so long as you can convince your DM that it is in line with slippery scales that give you a bonus on Escape Artist checks.

It's a horribly written power. And not just because the explicit part allows you to very slowly crank your physical attributes up with no limit. But the Pun Pun trick really is "there's nothing stopping the DM from letting me have Protean style unlimited form changing as an at-will ability for free." Technically this is true. But it's just as trivially true whether the Serpent Kingdoms are used or not.

-Username17

[Leress]

P.P.S. This is the best thread ever on WotC: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1027444

See, threads like this are why I barely post on the Classes boards anymore. I rather just read bad homebrew classes than having these tumors called "fighter thread" pushing every thing else out. It is the same people saying pretty much the same shit they have said before. The only real new phrase that is said is "you fighter fix lies with 4th edition" and even that is getting old.

[Bigode]

P.P.S. This is the best thread ever on WotC: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1027444

See, threads like this are why I barely post on the Classes boards anymore. I rather just read bad homebrew classes than having these tumors called "fighter thread" pushing every thing else out. It is the same people saying pretty much the same shit they have said before. The only real new phrase that is said is "you fighter fix lies with 4th edition" and even that is getting old.

I can only suppose I'm done with WotC now. Psionics' been merged with Invocations (not that it existed previously, or that it should now), and (base) Classes' been merged with PrCs. In other words, the 2 forums I followed have been mixed with 2 of the stupidest crowds there. Frank's strategy (sorta) works, it only drove me to only Dreamscarred Press and here (EN World hasn't had anything useful for long, and GitP had only martial disciplines besides stupidity).

[Jerry]

With all these dudes wanting a Fighter Fix, WotC could have made a serious profit making an "alternate Fighter fix." Unless 4th Edition is the profit, I don't know why they took so long. They've made plenty of money off of dragon fanboys, why not Fighter fanboys?

[K]

With all these dudes wanting a Fighter Fix, WotC could have made a serious profit making an "alternate Fighter fix." Unless 4th Edition is the profit, I don't know why they took so long. They've made plenty of money off of dragon fanboys, why not Fighter fanboys?

They did. See Book of Nine Swords, Heroes of Battle, Complete Warrior, and any book with a fighting PrC or base class fighting character like Player's Guide 2.

[JonSetanta]

With all these dudes wanting a Fighter Fix, WotC could have made a serious profit making an "alternate Fighter fix." Unless 4th Edition is the profit, I don't know why they took so long. They've made plenty of money off of dragon fanboys, why not Fighter fanboys?

They did. See Book of Nine Swords, Heroes of Battle, Complete Warrior, and any book with a fighting PrC or base class fighting character like Player's Guide 2.

Mostly this. And we all know the mixed reaction WEEABOO FIGHTAN MAGICK got.
Although, I did enjoy the mechanics. I've fallen all over the "per encounter" concept like my dog on a rancid, steaming chipmunk carcass on a hot summer day. The style and wordage went against my preferences, though.

[Psychic Robot]

To be fair, there are severe problems with the Wish and the Word. Yes, the rules abuse is very, very clever, and it demonstrates how much fail the developers are made of, but they don't hold up under RAW. Really, I didn't see any issue with a "you're outsiders so we don't want you!" mentality, but legitimate complaints.

The complaints that they said broke the builds were:

• Wish can't work the way it explicitly says that it works in the PHB because no DM would allow that. (I'm not kidding, this was the biggest complaint, which is insulting on the face of it)
• Caster Level doesn't multiply out on Ur Priest because it shouldn't.
• Thought Bottles save your specific level configuration despite the fact that they don't say they do that and explicitly say that they save your XP totals instead.

-Username17

My issues with the Wish/Word are:

1. K's justification for the Wish creating the custom item himself is a nauseating expression of lawyering. One might as well say that a ruler who hires a man to make him a sword has made the sword himself with that logic.

2. Ur-Priest caster levels are specifically based upon the level of the spellcasting class, not the caster level--there's a big difference there.

And yes, people who made those three arguments are dumb. It's annoying, but anyone with a modicum of intellect has the rest of the human race against him.

[Leress]

With all these dudes wanting a Fighter Fix, WotC could have made a serious profit making an "alternate Fighter fix." Unless 4th Edition is the profit, I don't know why they took so long. They've made plenty of money off of dragon fanboys, why not Fighter fanboys?

Probably because most of the fighter fixes are like 3.P, just adding more tiny numbers to the things that fighters are already good at doing. Also WOTC made a number of Fighter Fixes (aka variants) and most still sucked.

[Jerry]

I remember the Unearthed Arcana Variant that traded Fighter Bonus feats for Sneak Attack.

[Bigode]

Mostly this. And we all know the mixed reaction WEEABOO FIGHTAN MAGICK got.
Although, I did enjoy the mechanics. I've fallen all over the "per encounter" concept like my dog on a rancid, steaming chipmunk carcass on a hot summer day. The style and wordage went against my preferences, though.

Just checking: did you actually read enough of that to see there's almost no supernatural involved?

[JonSetanta]

A friend houseruled that Fighters get a bonus feat every level.
That worked fine, for a while.
In retrospect, they would need to get 2, then 3, then even more as certain benchmarks for spellcasters were passed, and even then they would still be assbitch to the power of a simple Wall of Force.

Just checking: did you actually read enough of that to see there's almost no supernatural involved?

I read all of it. The expression is commonly used to describe the pseudo-spellcasting by supposed warriors, partially in a joking sense but also because many grognards love the taste of that fullcaster Ultimate Power all for their selves.

[Bigode]

In retrospect, they would need to get 2, then 3, then even more as certain benchmarks for spellcasters were passed, and even then they would still be assbitch to the power of a simple Wall of Force.

Not if the feats allowed it not to. Before you say I'm committing a fallacy by proposing feat changes, remember they need that anyway; Greater Weapon Specialization and Shock Trooper are, IIRC, specifically in relative positions inverse of what their prerequisites would tell you, to give a quick example; i.e., if feats are problematic without taking the fighter into account, the fixes for them might fix the fighter with just 1 feat/level.

[Leress]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... ChestWound

Monks still suck