[Dom3]New MA Game

[Tador]

im back and have sent my Turn.

[DSMatticus]

I'm back and got mine in, and of course, exactly as I sent in I realized I sent I forgot to do something rather important. Oh well, one or two casters won't hurt too much. Grumblegrumble.

[DSMatticus]

Ashdod is willing to trade air, water, nature, astral, and fire gems in order to acquire earth/death gems.

[koz]

Fuck, I staled. Oh well.

[DSMatticus]

I have learned two things:
1) Casters choose shitty spell targets against Caelum; nether darts against a lone frontward target instead of the absolute masses of army in the back. Cloud of death into a melee instead of anything interesting.
2) Casters will go off-script if someone sneezes. I saw one nether darts that battle. One. The script included a significantly higher quantity more from a significantly larger number of casters.
(Different battles, mind)

Skele spam is great, but could you guys do something else too?

[koz]

DSM: Welcome to Dom3 logic. "Fuck you, that's why".

EDIT: Does anyone object to raising the time to submit turns to 30 hours? Thinking is hard...

[Username17]

Actually, it has to do with Nether Darts having a range of 25. So the Zamzumites won't start casting it until Caelumites move closer. And since Caelumites fly, "closer" usually means "in melee". So if they are scripted to cast Nether Darts, they will either cast something else or cast it into melee, depending on what the enemy is scripted to do.

Contrarywise, I used Nether Darts to great effect in a war against Pangaea. Hordes of Maenads charged in, and got machine gunned down again and again.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

Really? 25 isn't in range of initial positions? That sucks so hard. Actually, what are the relevant widths on the tactical map? Front placement to the same player's back placement, attacker's front to defender's front? While I'm at it, when you have multi-path spells like S1D1, which paths factor into discounting the cost and upgrading the variable effects and reducing fatigue?

And final thing; I hate Caelum and I hate you for playing them. But yeah, while I am going to continue to try and make this as hard and expensive for you as possible, this war has kind of been decided from the start and I'm predicting my total loss of resistance within the half-year. The deciding factor was my slow start and our god-damn border. It's one province wide on my side, one province wide on your side, and full of difficult terrain on both. Basically, it's a chokepoint that you were completely able to ignore by leaping over, so while I'm just now muscling my way into your territory past the chokepoint (with zero hope of reinforcements, even if I had an economy to buy reinforcements), you've had free reign of my territories because an entire Caelumite army can show up... Anywhere they want at anytime, complete with a full-set of battle casters. Raiding wins wars, and Caelum is the undisputed master of that.

If the war had started a few turns later, the shiny tools I want would have been online much sooner and the thugs that are coming online now would have been playing anti-raider duty, and I'd have actual chaff to support these bare-bones armies I'm throwing around. Edit: Not saying that would guarantee a win, but it would have made it more of a contest.

[Tador]

@Caelum

*A Messenger Arived for the Doors of the Border City to Abysia.*

#Message#

To the Leader of Caelum.
We cannot allow you to Destroy a complete nation.
So we will declar War to yout Nation.
Our Nap will end now and 3 Turns are negotiated.
We will hold us on this and will point you in the barriers.

Greetings

High Council of the Fire.

#Message End#

/Now is turn 34 we declared it and about my understanding to turn 37 inluding this turn we will not attak. At turn 38 Our War should be beginn.

Greetings

Tador

[Username17]

That is understandable. Balance of power in the world is important. If Ashdod hadn't been in the process of carving up Ctis with Tien Chi, I probably would have let their whole "We have the things you want to trade for but won't give them to you" position would have been something we probably would have just let slide. However, with them being in the position to eat Ctis and become very powerful and aggressive, we felt we needed to act.

Of course, attacking someone who has their back turned is just good tactics. So the fact that Caelum is being invaded by Pythium and Ashdod simultaneously probably makes us a pretty inviting target.

I just remind Abysia that the same logic applies to them as well. As soon as you move your troops to our border, expect someone to consider your lands to be juicy targets in addition to being the industrial heartland of a growing threat.

-Caelum

[Korwin]

Caelum and Phytium are at war? When did that happen?

[Username17]

Caelum and Phytium are at war? When did that happen?

Well that was an uneventful start to war, I was hoping for a decisive large battle. So let's make it interesting. Caelum, I'm announcing war. It is turn 28, orders will go out on 31 for attacks to land or be received on 32. This is probably a suicidal attack on a far superior player, but the best way to get experience is immersion by fire right?

Since then, they've invaded Caelum's core lands (where they were repulsed) and also provinces that we had raided from Ashdod. Pythium is busily "liberating" Caelum-occupied lands in Ashdod even as we speak.

Also, they spent a lot of air gems shooting hurricanes and seeking arrows and stuff at us.

-Caelum

[DSMatticus]

I probably would have let their whole "We have the things you want to trade for but won't give them to you" position would have been something we probably would have just let slide.

Handing Caelum earth access is not the best idea, longterm, and you really didn't have any items that were absolutely essential or even particularly useful to anything we needed in our war against C'tis. Ashdod has been hurting for two things this game; death gems and earth gems. Caelum was in the market for those exact same things (well, earth gem products, at least). It is understandable that you want to trade for earth items because earth is awesome and Caelum is perhaps the faction least-equipped to break into it out of all of us, but there's really nothing from air and water that Ashdod is hurting for. Certainly not enough to give up earth gems they could actually put to use. So no, if Caelum can't offer anything more valuable to Ashdod than the items they are asking for, they don't get Ashdod's magic items; that is how trades work. (In hindsight, a diplomatic strategy of appeasement may have been better long-term; eat the loss of earth gems just to keep our most dangerous neighbor happy, and throw the items on some thugs. But hindsight is like that.)

However, with them being in the position to eat Ctis and become very powerful and aggressive, we felt we needed to act.

That's fairly suspect. We were splitting C'tis with T'ien Ch'i, and doing so from a province, gold, and research disadvantage, as well as an almost complete lack of death sites for a death nation. Acquiring half of C'tis would have put us back in the game. T'ien Ch'i acquiring half of C'tis puts them further above the game. But now that you've forced us to withdraw from the war with C'tis, T'ien Ch'i isn't getting half of C'tis, they are getting as much of it as they can take, which is turning out to be "a lot." From the perspective of nipping a power grab in the bud, Caelum picked the wrong target.

Now, from the perspective of becoming a powerful nation which can compete easily with T'ien Ch'i's after they've eaten C'tis, Ashdod was a fantastic strategic choice. I've already mentioned our disadvantages, and our very Caelum-advantageous border. And you'd be reasonable think our territory is already death-searched and therefore full of death-producing sites, which Caelum loves. You'd be wrong, much to our disappointment, but you'd certainly be reasonable to think it. So in terms of an acquisition, Ashdod is a prime target that would have/will shortly put you neck and neck with T'ien Ch'i.

Ultimately, you've made very good strategic decisions which I can't really fault you for, and you've done enough damage to me that I will basically never hit the late game early enough to be competitive, but I have just enough juice left to be annoying and hopefully cause you some more damage. I'm never going to be able to put myself on the throne, so hopefully I can play kingmaker in some meaningful way; or at the least, kingbreaker. Or more likely, I'll be out of the game in short order.

Caelum and Phytium are at war? When die that happen?

Well that was an uneventful start to war, I was hoping for a decisive large battle. So let's make it interesting. Caelum, I'm announcing war. It is turn 28, orders will go out on 31 for attacks to land or be received on 32. This is probably a suicidal attack on a far superior player, but the best way to get experience is immersion by fire right?

Basically, the turn after Caelum attacked me. Apparently he wanted Ashdod to eat the initial heat; understandable. It seems like the first few battles there went in Caelum's favor as well.

Seriously. I don't get how anyone is supposed to compete with flying A3 recruitable everywhere battlemages backed up by flying chaff. They don't even make themself juicy spell targets for the AI's tactical selection. I understand that an SC with the proper immunities would go a long way, and I understand that battlefield destroying magic will get the job done, but those things are a lot harder to field and move around than a horde of flying battlemages, and meanwhile Caelum is raiding everything and destroying your economy. I'm not saying it's broken, but it's obviously a very powerful midgame nation which requires a level of expertise and finesse to beat that I just don't have. But, the plus side: it's been a decent learning experience, and I don't mind losing.

Also, ninja'd.

[Username17]

That's fairly suspect. We were splitting C'tis with T'ien Ch'i, and doing so from a province, gold, and research disadvantage, as well as an almost complete lack of death sites for a death nation. Acquiring half of C'tis would have put us back in the game. T'ien Ch'i acquiring half of C'tis puts them further above the game. But now that you've forced us to withdraw from the war with C'tis, T'ien Ch'i isn't getting half of C'tis, they are getting as much of it as they can take, which is turning out to be "a lot." From the perspective of nipping a power grab in the bud, Caelum picked the wrong target.

You misunderstand. The goal isn't to keep Ctis alive or to make them win the game. The goal is to help them stay alive longer. There was no way I was going to attack the senior partner in the anti-Ctis alliance, because that would have involved me getting my ass kicked.

I was hoping that someone somewhere was going to put the boot in to Tien Chi once they were no longer getting to tag team Ctis. But no... everyone decided to attack me instead of the province/research leader. I guess because they are clinically retarded. Such is life. At least we'll die knowing that we were public enemy number 2 for a while.

Caelum has impressive casters and mobility, but remember that in reality they have one of the worst magic diversity profiles in the game. The High Seraph is a great unit, but that's all there is. It's just A4W3S1D1 - 9 points of magic diversity for the whole faction. Compare to Pythium's 10 or Ashdod or Tien Chi's 13 and it's actually extremely poor.

And yeah, can we do 48 hour turns now? I'm being invaded by three factions simultaneously.

-Username17

[koz]

Extending to 48 hours. Sorry to hear of your predicament, Frank.

[DSMatticus]

I was hoping that someone somewhere was going to put the boot in to Tien Chi once they were no longer getting to tag team Ctis. But no... everyone decided to attack me instead of the province/research leader. I guess because they are clinically retarded. Such is life. At least we'll die knowing that we were public enemy number 2 for a while.

It is worth noting that everyone who has declared war on you has said this is their first game. You may be on to something. If anything, it's the same reason you declared war on me instead of T'ien Ch'i; the softer and more distracted of two targets. T'ien Ch'i is finishing a war (judging by graphs alone, ayway) while you're in the midst of one. Abysia's declaration isn't too surprising, in that regard. You're stretched thin and he thinks he can get a piece of your territories.

Besides, Caelum is scary in a way that T'ien Ch'i isn't. T'ien Ch'i is a deceptively normal faction until you realize they can do basically whatever the hell they want in the mid and late game; Caelum, however, is very in your face about their specialty. They're going to mass battlemages and thunderstrike you. It's probably a lot harder for new players to conceptualize the threat of T'ien Ch'i compared to the threat of Caelum.

What I'm confused by is how Pythium and Abysia are expecting to invade you together; the border they share with you is the same one, isn't it?

Caelum has impressive casters and mobility, but remember that in reality they have one of the worst magic diversity profiles in the game. The High Seraph is a great unit, but that's all there is. It's just A4W3S1D1 - 9 points of magic diversity for the whole faction. Compare to Pythium's 10 or Ashdod or Tien Chi's 13 and it's actually extremely poor.

The magic diversity blows, and that's a serious lategame problem for them. But that's why I said midgame, where they shine like radiant doom pidgeons.

[Username17]

What I'm confused by is how Pythium and Abysia are expecting to invade you together; the border they share with you is the same one, isn't it?

Nah. Abysia has their own little corridor with which to invade Caelum from the South. And of course Pythium is able to attack us from both the East and West.

So there are actually three fronts between the two of them, and very little overlap. If Abysia conquers much of our territory, it will become the border that Pythium is fighting on. Same as how Pythium has invaded on the other border until they're just occupying a big chunk of Ashdod.

-Username17

[Drago0661]

We cannot allow you to Destroy a complete nation.

Where was this logic when Tien Chi and Ashdod attacked me? :/

I was hoping that someone somewhere was going to put the boot in to Tien Chi once they were no longer getting to tag team Ctis. But no... everyone decided to attack me instead of the province/research leader. I guess because they are clinically retarded.

This. I have no idea why people are going after Caelum first when Tien Chi is the nation leading in provinces and research and was the first aggressor.

[Zinegata]

LOL, I think Korwin may end up winning with Arcane Nexus again like in the EDUTGD4 game.

[Korwin]

Greetings to Man,

you want a part of C'ties or do you want to help him?
If the former, lets talk (You want his capital? If you take it, its yours.)
If the later, hello new target.


--
T'ien Chi

[Username17]

LOL, I think Korwin may end up winning with Arcane Nexus again like in the EDUTGD4 game.

Meh. He's Tien Chi, he can force a global surrender by any of a number of means. Since this is a VP game, he can't win just by taking lots of territory with no effective opposition (though of course, he is doing that). He needs to get a plurality of players to surrender to him or at least drop out in more generalized despair, which in turn causes a chain reaction where the game is abandoned and he is declared the winner.

The most effective means of forcing surrender are the Arcane Nexus, the Utterdark, and the Astral Corruption. Laboring under any of those causes severe morale checks in most players. Of course, all of those can be dispelled, granting new hope. And it is hope that must be crushed for a player to win in a no-VPs format. The most unstoppable means of crushing hope is Wishing for Armageddon. It's really quite expensive for what you get, but it squeezes hope out of people fairly effectively and cannot be dispelled or undone by any means.

Short of that, you're basically working on one player at a time. Flames From the Sky is a pretty good morale breaker, especially if you can levy several of them in a turn. Tartarian factories can break peoples' morale, especially if they lose a bunch of provinces in a single turn to a mass Tartarian invasion or have their core army superkilled by a large group of Tarts at once.

Tien Chi has limited access to Blood and Death, which are two of three of the really good morale breaking suits. But their Astral is fine and of course they can pull off literally every other type of bullshit in the game, so there's that.

The specific method that Tien Chi chooses to make us all surrender to him is of course, up to him. But the reality is that he will do it one way or another if everyone sits around masturbating while he continues to grow in size.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

The specific method that Tien Chi chooses to make us all surrender to him is of course, up to him. But the reality is that he will do it one way or another if everyone sits around masturbating while he continues to grow in size.

Everyone is sort of busy. And I mean everyone; Caelum is busy fighting off the three newbies, the three newbies are busy figuring out how to handle Caelum, C'tis is barely hanging in there, and Man is... something. And that's everyone. There is no one with the resources to declare a war that is not suicidal.

Caelum and T'ien Ch'i were both powerful, large factions, and they were both in the midst of devouring weaker nations. And the remaining factions are not actually capable of engaging both simultaneously because there just isn't enough remaining military power on the map to do so. There is only enough military might on the map to wage a non-suicidal war against one of those factions, and whichever one they don't choose is going to have a scary advanced lategame compared to everyone else. Admittably, Caelum's lategame is less impressively versatile than T'ien Ch'i's, but I don't think that would stop them when they have free, unopposed reign for however long it takes the theoretical war with T'ien Ch'i to resolve itself.

Remember; Caelum was everyone's threat #2 before they declared war on Ashdod. Your war declaration was telling the world "if you try to deal with T'ien Ch'i, by the time you leave the war I will be wearing his shoes." Pythium decided on you (he probably thought Caelum was a weaker position and Ashdod had more fight left than C'tis), and that sort of locked Abysia out of a war with T'ien Ch'i because nobody wants to try and solo T'ien Ch'i (not even with C'tis mage hold outs) right now. I'm discounting Man for now because I'm getting very neutral vibes from him.

[Username17]

See, I'm taking them at their word:

This is probably a suicidal attack on a far superior player, but the best way to get experience is immersion by fire right?

That they basically regard what they are doing as throwing the game to Tien Chi, but are going to war with Caelum anyway because they think that they can get battle experience that way.

It's actually fairly offensive. They are making a mockery of this game for the express purpose of learning how the fiddly bits of the game work. This would be the equivalent of someone playing Settlers of Cataan and trading all their resources to the leading player for Ore and Sheep so that they could buy and see more development cards.

-Username17

[Akula]

Far be it from me to tell Pythium what he is thinking, but I just don't see how you get that from what he wrote. All I see is him saying, in a joking way no less, that he isn't fully confident in his ability to win this war. I don't think you have to get your panties in a twist because someone else was hoping to gank you when your armies were weak or occupied elsewhere. I mean, you kinda did the same thing to Ashdod.

Ah, den dom3 diplomacy. Where everyone is throwing the game to someone, and no one agrees on who that someone is. If anyone is new enough to actually make choices based on thread chatter, my advice would be to not do that. If public posts are not outright spin, they almost certainly represent incomplete information and limited perspective. PMs or IRC are where real diplo gets done.

[DSMatticus]

That's a whole lot of shadily injected meaning. Suicidal in that sentence does not look like it means "... because whether we win or lose the war, we're throwing the game to T'ien Ch'i." It looks like a statement of personal uncertainty. And that is perfectly compatible with believing (regardless of whether it actually is) that it is in their long-term interest to declare war on Caelum.

I'm still not convinced declaring war on Caelum was even a wrong move. While Caelum was the #2 longterm threat and T'ien Ch'i was #1, Caelum was also the more distracted of the two factions. That means war with Caelum is less reward (in terms of threat elimination), but also less risk.

Edit:

If public posts are not outright spin

You know, I have to admit to being guilty of this. Several times. And this is only my second game. I am a beacon of honesty and truth.