Warmachine MKII: The rant

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:43 am

So, I have played it quite a bit since GW announced the "Throne of Skulls" tournament, which is a complete clusterfuck of comp and soft-score which doesn't make any goddamn sense. After a while, the "new game" shinyness started to fall apart, and the rabid fanboyism started to sink, the defects of the system started to show.

To start with the obvious (because I don't want to read ALL CAPS PL):

Yes, Fury is strictly better than Focus. So, how Warmachine factions compete?:

*Better Infantry.
*Better Feats (the one-turn-of-awesome-thing that your Warnoun does).

So, the next statement is "Warjacks don't suck, unlike the MKI days". Which, while almost true, it has more holes than the cheese. Let's see the cases:

*The Warjack is a character Jack. One thing that you learn quick on PP land is that the word "character" means "this model is OP bullshit". Hence, you tend to see lists with lots of the character things. So, character Jacks tend to have a ton of special rules that make it broken. Case in point: The Cryx Deathjack. Will go on detail about that model later.

*Is a "focus free" jack. Whatever is for the Accumulator rule or that collects souls, it doesn't drain on your Warcaster, so you get to break the rules.

*Is a 8-9 pts Jack. Which are *slightly* less filled of Special Rules than the already mentioned character jacks.

*Is a Light Jack that can kill heavies. If my 5 pts Jack kills your 8+ pts Jack/Beast, who wins?

*Is an Arc Node. Since you don't want your Warnoun killed, you want to put him at the back. Arc Nodes allow people to do that and cast spells like he was on the front.

None of the above is exclusive, so let's get back to the Cryx Deathjack. There's a Heavy Jack that:

*Eats souls for focus.
*Generates focus on top of the above.
*Is an Arc-Node, but since is a special rule, it works until is killed, NOT when you disable the system.
*It can use the focus to heal.

Gee, I fucking wonder why is taken pretty much all the time. So, what we learned? "Warjacks don't suck" is imcomplete, the complete statement is "Warjacks don't suck....if you take the ones covered on bullshit special rules".

Awesome game system there, PP. /sarcasm

That out, there's the Tournament system. Which pathetically tries to cover the defects of the system with a satin thong.

Since you don't do anything outside your turn, people slowplay, so the tournament has ridicously tight chess timers that make infantry hordes unviable. Since there's a ton of auto-lose matchups, people can take two or more lists. Since is easier to simply fall back and shoot until opening a hole big enough to get to the caster, let's make a shitton of "take the objective on the middle" missions and cover it up by making the objective of a different shape. See, they are different. Really. lol.

And finally, the one that the "super competitive tournament players" are pushing, since characters are broken, you can only put a character on one of your list and can only play that list X numer of times. That's the exact same level of pathetic bullshit that GW players tried to push by years, yet the irony doesn't even register.

Tier lists? They are a newb trap, since they don't let you take some characters/X unit.

With all of the above, why people that jump the GW ship are so quick to sing the praises of it, if it's a company of the same level? Four reasons:

*They have a forum. They "listen and care about their player base". Yes, they actually believe that.

*Their update schedule is way faster than the "haha, the rules for your minis suck for a decade" GW flavor.

*On the above, about half of the 40k codexes updated are Space Marine variants, they fucked up two of the non-Marine variants and Fantasy is lol bad right now.

*Both companies charge 100$ for FIVE CAVALRY DUDES, but PP armies are smaller.

And that's it. Basically, WM is there because GW is WotC and PP is Paizo. So you better like painting minis because the rules are not stellar.

/end rant

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:30 am

My rant was better.

You should read it.

By the sounds of things you missed some of Privateer's zanier fan bashing moments.

PS

TESTICLES!

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:02 am

People go to it from GW because it's better than GW. Period, end of topic. Now granted being better than 40k doesn't make you a mecca of game design (hell some of their products are almost LITERALLY unplayable as published), but if I jump from a sunken ship to a sinking ship I consider that an upgrade.

PP's material offers a number of interesting combinations and is fun to look through for ways to combine things to get powerful effects. I have enjoyed my mental time spent within the games parameters. Now I will grant you it is not GREAT and in fact has serious unbalances scattered all over the place, but is it better than any GW product I've played in the last 10 years? Certainly.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:24 pm

My rant was better.

Nuh-uh. Though yours covers MKI, and I cover why MKII isn't the mecca of game design.

People go to it from GW because it's better than GW. Period, end of topic.

Being better than GW doesn't excuse their bullshit. I play both, and attack them not of hate, but of love.

spasheridan · Post by **spasheridan** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:59 pm

Gx1080-

I'm a rapid WM fan, so please allow me to anti-rant your rant.

Deathjack = awesome. Let's, for a moment, consider what awesome is.

Awesome is that which makes you smile and your opponent cry. Since you are crying about the Deathjack, I assume you do not play cryx. Also, it isn't an arc node but a spellcaster.

The basic philosophy behind WM is something akin to rocket tag. As in, it sucks that you get hit by rockets in rocket tag but hey - you have a rocket launcher to so get some game and pull the trigger faster.

What I mean by that is the T-Head is almost as awesome as the DJ. The Behemoth is also just as awesome as the DJ. The Avatar - meh, not as awesome, but fairly awesome. One of the Character Jacks is going to be the best, that's kind of how things work, but it isn't 50% better than the Behemoth, it's like 5% better. The DJ still drops like a wet paper bag to a punching match with the Behemoth.

Also - Focus != Fury. Consider a juggernaught, a 10 pt jack. 1 Focus will get you a MAT 7 P+S 18 attack with a crit effect. Consider a Dire Troll Mauler - 9 Pt Troll. 1 Fury will get you a MAT 6 P+S 16 attack with a chain attack. I think if you do the pairings you find that a point of fury generally buys you less than a point of focus. BUT, if you're bad at math and planning it's a lot easier to use the fury mechanic. Maybe that's why you like it more. ;P

Finally - tournament rules. Are you honestly bitching that the scenarios for the tournaments are something other than "go kill your opponent"? I played MK1 from 2003 (release) and the steamroller system has been refined almost every year to iron out a few annoying problems - like how lame 2 artillery battles are, or how the artillery player stalls out the clock vs a melee list. Didn't this happen to you in 40k land? I know when my Khorne army squared off against a Tau list for some reason his turns sudenly became 30 minute affairs...

Sure, the hardcore lists and masters play rule sets are wonky - I don't play them because they're so wonky. I think the dream is to kind of do away with netdecking and the equivilent and let your inner wargamer shing. I might agree with you that this format blows though.

Tier lists - yep, mostly lame. But if you're not a competitive player and want to paint up some awesome themed shit then this is a nice guide to it. Not my cup of tea but a lot of folks dig that part of the hobby..

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:03 am

"I think if you do the pairings you find that a point of fury generally buys you less than a point of focus. "

Less P+S and MAT, but being able to boost AND power up your Warnoun with the same fury point says that fury is better. Come on, even the "super competitive tournament players" admit that. And I'm not saying that it doesn't balance, I'm saying that covering the inherent flaws of a system with tons of special rules is crappy game design. Picked the Deathjack because is an obvious example.

"Are you honestly bitching that the scenarios for the tournaments are something other than "go kill your opponent"? "

Nope, read again.

The "dream" is a pile of shit. Net-decking is GOOD, because if people invest time + effort + money into buying, assembling and painting an unit and they discover that it sucks, chances are that they aren't going to play much longer. Didn't you saw that on 40k? I have.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:48 am

I now REALLY recommend you follow the link to my superior rant on this.

Because on the second page Spasheridan starts posting and then proceeds to very thoroughly embarrass himself on all points.

Seriously, Spasheridan's defense of Warmachine is pure comedy gold. And hilariously he is STILL making similarly stupid claims NOW, even after having lost that fight so hard last time when he was caught out with things like...

Me, referring to Spasheridan wrote:Claims, including, but not limited to.

1) A unit with a really short threat range will allow me to encounter the enemy on MY terms!
2) On the turn I make the enemy skip a portion of their turn I will skip all of mine, thus ending up ahead by a turn worth of attacks!
3) 2.0 is better because... I HAVE BALLS!

And relevant to his continued defense of the TERRIBAD official privateer tournament rules...

Me wrote:
spasheridan wrote:Steamroller rules show you how they envision this game being played
Yeah, they envision a really really narrow, brief, shallow and unbalanced version of their own game that is far suckier than the game could be otherwise.

Which as simple as that critique was he never even came close to touching it, or any other critique of Privateer and Warmachine with any relevant argument. He basically just holds his dick in hand and talks about BALLS! Which is all in all an excellent example of the quality of Warmachine's more dedicated surviving fan base and why you shouldn't stand near them unless you are into getting splattered with their sickly abnormal man juices.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:49 am

PL nobody reads your stupid rants because they don't make sense half the time.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:08 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:PL nobody reads your stupid rants because they don't make sense half the time.

Disagree.

I find PL to be an abrasive asshole much of the time, but his WM rant was spot on...and hilarious.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:19 pm

Also: BALLS.

-Username17

spasheridan · Post by **spasheridan** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:20 pm

Note on Balls: Actual balls appear on the Dire Troll Mauler model. I make no positive or negative statement on these balls

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:55 pm

Knowing Privateer Press the only question that raises is "how many?".

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:08 am

PoliteNewb wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:PL nobody reads your stupid rants because they don't make sense half the time.
Disagree.

I find PL to be an abrasive asshole much of the time, but his WM rant was spot on...and hilarious.

No one here makes any damn sense to me half the time. I'm sure I make sense to others about as often. But sometimes, even neurotypicals gotta sperg out about something.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:19 am

They're proper METAL balls, right?

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:47 am

Psychic Robot wrote:PL nobody reads your stupid rants because they don't make sense half the time.

I hope the irony isn't lost on anyone.