The HERO system is awesome.

[Ganbare Gincun]

By default? There aren't any. You can totally walk right past any opponents that aren't physically blocking your path.

So does Hero have the same kind of issues as D&D where people "focus fire" to burn things down quickly, or do people just typically take powers that allow them to "tank" enemies to prevent this from happening?

[hogarth]

So does Hero have the same kind of issues as D&D where people "focus fire" to burn things down quickly, or do people just typically take powers that allow them to "tank" enemies to prevent this from happening?

The "focused fire" thing is an issue, certainly, especially with single enemies who are supposed to challenge the entire party. But in my experience, we generally didn't build the kind of "glass cannon" PCs like you would have in D&D, so you don't need to have mages hiding behind fighters, for instance.

[Josh_Kablack]

Focused Fire (aka Smear the Queer) tends to be a little less of an issue in HERO than in D&D due to HERO's rather harsh range penalties (-2 to hit on a 3d6 curve starting at 4 hexes away, -4 at 8 hexes, -6 at 16 hexes and continue the geometric progression). So unless multiple PCs are effectively in point blank with the same enemy (or PCs have abilities to reduce or negate range mods) in fights with even opponents, it usually like a 11.5% to 24.57% shift in to-hit probabilities to target the guy who is just 4 more hexes away.

Furthermore the way defenses, vulnerabilities and recoveries work also changes tactics in a way that effective focus tends to be a little more about timing that just "everybody hit the most injured guy". Dealing a crucial follow-up blow on a stunned opponent before they can reactivate their Force Field is huge, and the way the 0 to -9 vs -10 to -19 Stun remaining Recovery times reward kick-em-while they're down behavior a bit more than is strictly genre-appropriate for most superheroes.


Not that focus fire isn't still frequently an optimum strategy, just that it is somewhat less frequently optimal than in D&D and there tend to be a few more factors to consider.

[squee_nabob]

Getting your enemies to focus fire can be a great way to tank them. Have them focus on you, abort to a defensive action (generally dodge, all levels on DCV and raise any abortable defenses). They are stuck doing reduced damage against you, while your friends pound away at them.

The counter to this is based on relative speeds and builds. Generally you want to find people who cannot abort, then hit them, and who that is will vary throughout the combat.

(and I'm super simplifying all possible tactics, I know)

[Ganbare Gincun]

Focused Fire (aka Smear the Queer) tends to be a little less of an issue in HERO than in D&D due to HERO's rather harsh range penalties (-2 to hit on a 3d6 curve starting at 4 hexes away, -4 at 8 hexes, -6 at 16 hexes and continue the geometric progression). So unless multiple PCs are effectively in point blank with the same enemy (or PCs have abilities to reduce or negate range mods) in fights with even opponents, it usually like a 11.5% to 24.57% shift in to-hit probabilities to target the guy who is just 4 more hexes away.

Not sure how I feel about those range modifiers. Someone firing a Heavy Longbow at a target 30 meters away (which would have no penalty to hit in D&D) gets a total of -3 to their OCV for that kind of attack (if I'm reading the rules correctly). But then again, they could also Brace as a Free Action prior to their attack and reduce their penalty to -1 OCV. The penalty for firing at double the normal range for the Bow would be -3. And we're not even factoring any OCV modifiers for Combat Skill. So on the face of it, it seems reasonable. And anyone playing an Arcane Archer or Bullet Mage or the like will more then likely be building powers with the No Range Modifier or Area Of Effect advantages anyway.

But I do believe that if I ran a Fantasy Hero game, I would want to have rules in play like the ones that you listed here to discourage people from running around the battlefield like crazy. Maybe even introduce the AoO system from D&D, but allow for a "Combat Reflexes" trait to allow you to get a number of Strikes of Opportunity equal to your SPD per round (with only one attack allotted per enemy passing through, of course). Perhaps even utilize the Ninja Hero rule as well for 1/2 DCV when trying to run through an enemy's Zone Of Control. Really punish people for trying to melee focus fire targets in the back of a group.

I'm probably going to get all of the Hero rulebooks this Christmas and put a game together and see how things pan out; seems more worthwhile to introduce minor tweaks to the Hero then it would be to overhaul 3.X or Pathfinder or whatever happens to be the fail D20 game of the week.

[CCarter]

So if you wanted to make AoOs a standard rule in Hero, could you just give everyone a Triggered power to do that for free, or as a required purchase out of their initial points? Or would there be point value differences between how much this is worth between different characters, or some other factor, that would make that impractical?

[Ice9]

Well, there would definitely be point differences. Adding Trigger to a Vorpal Death Touch is going to cost more than adding it to an ordinary dagger.

Also, in settings where equipment is bought with money instead of points, you have the issue that while a given character usually uses a short sword (HKA 1d6-1, 10 points), they could pick up a greataxe (HKA 2.5d6, 40 points). So you either have to buy your Trigger large enough to encompass any reasonable weapon, or have it mysteriously fail to work when that happens.

If you just add AoOs as a campaign rule, there shouldn't be a problem though.


As for the "circle around to get attacks from behind" thing, all the groups I've played with have assumed that you can at least turn in place, even when it isn't your phase. So the only way to get that bonus is when the target can't just turn to face you (doesn't see you, immobilized, flanked, readying an attack in the other direction, etc).

[CCarter]

Well, there would definitely be point differences. Adding Trigger to a Vorpal Death Touch is going to cost more than adding it to an ordinary dagger.

Also, in settings where equipment is bought with money instead of points, you have the issue that while a given character usually uses a short sword (HKA 1d6-1, 10 points), they could pick up a greataxe (HKA 2.5d6, 40 points). So you either have to buy your Trigger large enough to encompass any reasonable weapon, or have it mysteriously fail to work when that happens.

Doesn't strike me as entirely unrealistic. An attack of opportunity is a split second reaction, possibly a very large weapon might take too long to effectively use in time.

Oh and 'basic attacks' only

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

Well fvck me, I just realised that Hero 6th is the system I've been looking for to run my Lord of Light game.

Hindu-mythology superheroes, here I come!

[hogarth]

As for the "circle around to get attacks from behind" thing, all the groups I've played with have assumed that you can at least turn in place, even when it isn't your phase. So the only way to get that bonus is when the target can't just turn to face you (doesn't see you, immobilized, flanked, readying an attack in the other direction, etc).

Yeah, that's pretty much how we worked it in Champions and V&V back when I played. V&V was even worse; with the Heightened Speed power, you could get characters who could run a mile in a single turn, or something ridiculous like that.

[UmaroVI]

You might rule that AoOs are free with weapons (ie, make the cost of the Trigger part of the weapon itself, not a property of the wielder, which makes it "free" since it's a Heroic game, presumably), but have to be paid for with anything else.

[UmaroVI]

As for the "circle around to get attacks from behind" thing, all the groups I've played with have assumed that you can at least turn in place, even when it isn't your phase. So the only way to get that bonus is when the target can't just turn to face you (doesn't see you, immobilized, flanked, readying an attack in the other direction, etc).

Yeah, that's pretty much how we worked it in Champions and V&V back when I played. V&V was even worse; with the Heightened Speed power, you could get characters who could run a mile in a single turn, or something ridiculous like that.

6e now specifically tells you to play it the sensible way:

"if an opponent the character doesn't know about attacks him from behind, that usually means the character is Surprised [...] But if the character knows about or can see an opponent, that opponent can't get a Surprised bonus just by making a Half Move behind the character before attacking."

[Ganbare Gincun]

You might rule that AoOs are free with weapons (ie, make the cost of the Trigger part of the weapon itself, not a property of the wielder, which makes it "free" since it's a Heroic game, presumably), but have to be paid for with anything else.

This seems like the best option. I don't have the full set of Hero 6E books yet - just the basic one, which doesn't have Trigger listed - so I'll check out the modifiers to the Trigger power once I get the main books and see what kind of AoO scheme I can get up and running.

[Ice9]

For basic AoOs (1/phase), you can go with:
Trigger (target provokes AoO; zero-phase reset, trigger is a non-action, fixed trigger; +3/4) for up to X points of melee attacks.

For Combat Reflexes, upgrade it to:
Trigger (target provokes AoO; automatic reset, trigger is a non-action, fixed trigger; +1) for up to X points of melee attacks, Limited Power (only up to DEX/5 times per phase; -1/4 to -0).

I'm setting the "DEX/5" limitation pretty low due to the fact that an unlimited automatic resetting trigger is pretty much crazy-town without some mitigating factor. So it's almost more like a required defense (ala Uncontrolled) than a regular limitation.

[mean_liar]

If I remember Trigger correctly, you can actually have it as a slot in a MultiPower and it'll rest dormant and Trigger on its own, so its not even that expensive in point terms, since your combat abilities (ie., your "fighting style" multipower) are already built on a Multipower, right?

[UmaroVI]

Yes, you can have a trigger as a Multipower slot, and it will stay "ready" when the slot is inactive. The book does warn you to be careful about allowing this, though. Also, you can't reset the trigger without having the slot active, and for AoO you probably want the trigger to reset automatically.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I genuinely don't even know what "gritty" even means. But killing attacks and autofire being what they are, people occasionally take really big piles of Body damage and explode. But by and large yeah, player characters normally just take Stun damage, and stun damage recovers completely the next "scene" even if you get KOed.

So what's the best way to keep people from exploding in games where Killing Attacks are a dime-a-dozen? Make BODY cheaper? Make Resistant PD/ED cheaper? A little of Column A and Column B? I don't want people to drop in two hits, but I don't want Padded Sumo either.

[kzt]

Armored suits are the staple for champions games I've been in. Everyone had at least 10-15 points of resistant armor, many had a lot more. We tried to ensure that nobody built FF boy, who had no defenses when stunned.

The exception was a couple of martial artists I built who had damage reduction and regeneration, but that's equal to something like 18/18 armor in active points. They still had suit with a few points of armor IIRC.

If you are running a modern game, it's hard. PCs should try really, really hard to not get in a "fair fight".

[hogarth]

So what's the best way to keep people from exploding in games where Killing Attacks are a dime-a-dozen? Make BODY cheaper? Make Resistant PD/ED cheaper? A little of Column A and Column B? I don't want people to drop in two hits, but I don't want Padded Sumo either.

Like kzt said, if everyone has at least 10 points of resistant defenses, Body damage is pretty much a non-issue unless you're being strafed by a helicopter gunship (and sometimes not even then). Of course, that means that having a Spider-Man type character who's not bulletproof is a dangerous idea unless you come up with a power that's similar to the "plot armour" that fictional heroes have.

[UmaroVI]

So what's the best way to keep people from exploding in games where Killing Attacks are a dime-a-dozen? Make BODY cheaper? Make Resistant PD/ED cheaper? A little of Column A and Column B? I don't want people to drop in two hits, but I don't want Padded Sumo either.

Keep in mind that for the most part, people drop when they run out of STUN; superheroes who will never take BODY damage from even large KAs are not "invulnerable" because they can still be knocked out. If you just want to not have PCs randomly explode without making fights padded sumo, just suggest players have resistant defenses equal to about 1 to 1.5 times the DC cap.

[Josh_Kablack]

HERO's combo of

• resistant defenses applying against BODY,
• attacks doing STUN damae that is usually twice to triple their BODY damage
• having a large-ish death threshold

makes it generally a whole lot harder to kill a character than to knock them out.

For the most part, Champions (and I mean Champions- specifically superheroic HERO) gets lethality about right for superheroic genre, provided that: people remember to make superheroes who are at least highly bullet-resistant (this can be resistant defenses, or it can be some clever combo of DCV, desolid, missile deflection, damage reductiion, regeneration or healing with the ressurection adder) and the MC rarely uses killing attacks other than the listed small arms.

If people forget to build some sort of bullet-resistance into their character they can get into trouble, or if the MC even-semi frequently trots out max-DC killing attacks, then their swingyness will eventually send a PC into far negative body in a single lucky strike.

That said, with the standard assumptions of a 60 active point game, a max DC killing attack tops out at 4d6, for 24 body and since characters can live to negative their body,and the base value for BOD is 10, a 4d6 killing attack is only an insta-jib against a normal with no resistant defenses if it rolls 20 or higher on 4d6. 5 points of resistant defense or 3 additional points of body on a Super at least let them live through anything that's not exceeding the damage cap via maneuvers.

What actually can kill Champions PCs by the rules within a game session are

• Berserker or similarly-psychotic villains who will keep attacking KOed PCs, instead of following the genre trope of leaving themiin a seemingly inescapable deathtrap.
• Environmental stuff hitting a PC who's not prepared for it. Extreme falling, drowning, radiation, the vacuum of space and other comic-book staples can on occasion actually grease a PC.
• Autofire killing attacks that get to work against reduced defenses. Whether this is through Find Weakness, Armor Piercing or just sniping against a PC whose forcefield is down for the phase this can kill a PC. The combination of autofire and killing attack damage combines 2 swingy mechanics multiplicatively, making for attacks that are on average small threats but have a tiny potential to be lethal. When combo'ed with lowered defenses, that potential gets a lot larger.
• Outright Gygaxian hosing. There are rules in an early module for stacking DCs of overlapping explosions that fall into this category, and it is technically possible to build crazy power constructs involving stupidly large number of autofire attacks, or NNDs that deal body, or just abusing move-throughs.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Two quick questions about the Hero System for you veterans out there:

1) How do you build powers in Hero that allow for re-rolls (like Slippery Mind)? Are they particularly relevant, given the fact that you're using a 3D6 instead of a D20?

2) What's the best way to build divination spells like Commune and Contact Other Plane?

[kzt]

1) Don't follow the reference. What does it do?

2) Divination is normally done as clairesentience (20 pts) +20 for precog. There are a pile of advantages and disads you can pile on this to customize.

[Username17]

Rerolls per se are basically not used. Just give yourself bonuses. If you want delayed onset defenses like slippery mind, I would suggest triggered suppressions or dispels with a delay. If you want the feeling of rolling more dice when you are attacked, I would suggest defenses with an activation roll.

-Username17

[Ice9]

To elaborate, powers like Mind Control or Mental Illusions have a series of breakout rolls, at increasing time intervals. You can buy levels with these rolls, for 2 points/level. +10 to Breakout rolls will pretty much guarantee success, and even +5 will make a very significant difference.

Breakout rolls happen periodically (next phase, then end of turn, then one minute, and so on down the time chart). So for a delayed effect, you could limit your Breakout roll bonus to "Only from X onward" (I'd use the limitation values from Extra Time, although probably not as high for "1 turn").