Fixing the Fantasy of Fantasy Gaming

[K]

There is a fantasy novel trilogy where thought creates magic to a small degree, so firearms don't get used because people's unconscious fears interfere with anything that happens too fast for the eye to see or they don't understand.

So only sorcerers use regular firearms because they are the only one's who can prevent misfires and explosions, and regular people have to use expensive enchanted firearms.

It would solve problems with winning adventures with powder since it turns powder into a magic item.

[MGuy]

There is a fantasy novel trilogy where thought creates magic to a small degree, so firearms don't get used because people's unconscious fears interfere with anything that happens too fast for the eye to see.

So only sorcerers use regular firearms because they are the only one's who can prevent misfires and explosions, and regular people have to use expensive enchanted firearms.

I like this idea and I had heard it somewhere before. Do you have the name of this novel trilogy?

[K]

There is a fantasy novel trilogy where thought creates magic to a small degree, so firearms don't get used because people's unconscious fears interfere with anything that happens too fast for the eye to see.

So only sorcerers use regular firearms because they are the only one's who can prevent misfires and explosions, and regular people have to use expensive enchanted firearms.

I like this idea and I had heard it somewhere before. Do you have the name of this novel trilogy?

Black Sun Rising is the first novel of the Coldfire Trilogy.

Word of warning: the first chapter of the first book is super grimdark. I've known a couple of people who couldn't even start this excellent trilogy based on that first chapter.

It's a neat world. Space colonists crash land on a world where thought creates physical changes to a small degree to help living things. So for example, if a swamp dries up the next generation of frogs have rudimentary lungs.

So when the colonists arrive, their fears start creating demons that hunt and kill them until one crazy nutter imprints on the world his personal "magic logic" belief system so that the magic mostly now only responds to that (mostly).

Fast forward 500 years and you get a world where people still understand science, but they can't make anything too complex because people's beliefs mess with everything from engines to the weather. Sorcerers are people who the magic responds to their beliefs, and they occasionally enchant things so that the magic won't interfere with it.

The series jumps the shark somewhat by the third book, but I can say that it's a good ride for most of it. The art of the three covers is also pretty bad-ass, and when I used to play Baldur's Gate I used the imported cover of the third book for my character.

[cthulhu]

Loading was somewhat slow (slower than a smoothbore musket, anyway), but wikipedia cites 1 minute, and I think it was faster with patched balls.

A skilled marksman could take around three relatively aimed shots per minute with a civil war era rifle.

You get pretty damn fast if you practice consistantly.

With pre-patched balls you can fire three shots a minute with a Napoleonic war era musket. It's hard fucking going though. But you get do aimed sustained fire at 100 yards.

Demonstration here, after a TV episode thing (ignore that bit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvc86ggLUY4

Good stuff starts at 0:40. Disclaimer: I know all the people in that video.

The problem was period training was pretty shitty, and doctrine called for minimization of the disruption to formation caused by reloading, it was generally better to hold your fire and give them a bayonet charge.

[K]

Why are people talking about real-world guns when the only important thing is the mechanics of the game?

It doesn't matter what guns were like at any point in history. All that matters is how good they are allowed to be in your fantasy heart-breaker if you still want people to use swords and other fantasy weapons.

[cthulhu]

Because it's pretty interesting? Plus you can adopt some lessons learnt - I personally see few reasons to make a gun much mechanically different from a heavy crossbow.

[Prak]

Yeah, seriously, most early guns can basically be pallet swapped crossbows. I mean, the biggest difference between the two, from a use standpoint, is that different crossbows require different amounts of strength to cock, where as guns don't. If one really felt a need to differentiate between crossbows and early guns, then crossbows should get strength mins, and then the advantage to a gun is no strength min, and maybe a slightly longer range.

[K]

Yeah, seriously, most early guns can basically be pallet swapped crossbows. I mean, the biggest difference between the two, from a use standpoint, is that different crossbows require different amounts of strength to cock, where as guns don't. If one really felt a need to differentiate between crossbows and early guns, then crossbows should get strength mins, and then the advantage to a gun is no strength min, and maybe a slightly longer range.

Ok, I'll bite on the "because it's fun" argument. I'll even add something:

Crossbows don't need a Str min because there were a variety of levers, pulleys, and cranks that people used for crossbows at various points in history. Pulling the string back with your hand was pretty rare. Most were set braced on the ground and you'd pull the string into place with a lever using your whole back strength. Even a child could do it.

[virgil]

Yeah, seriously, most early guns can basically be pallet swapped crossbows. I mean, the biggest difference between the two, from a use standpoint, is that different crossbows require different amounts of strength to cock, where as guns don't. If one really felt a need to differentiate between crossbows and early guns, then crossbows should get strength mins, and then the advantage to a gun is no strength min, and maybe a slightly longer range.

Except that guns have recoil, and if you're too weak to handle it, what little accuracy you had goes out the window. I've contemplated there being 'mighty' guns (much like mighty longbows) that have higher payload at the requirement of greater strength to handle the recoil.

[Prak]

Yeah, seriously, most early guns can basically be pallet swapped crossbows. I mean, the biggest difference between the two, from a use standpoint, is that different crossbows require different amounts of strength to cock, where as guns don't. If one really felt a need to differentiate between crossbows and early guns, then crossbows should get strength mins, and then the advantage to a gun is no strength min, and maybe a slightly longer range.

Ok, I'll bite on the "because it's fun" argument. I'll even add something:

Crossbows don't need a Str min because there were a variety of levers, pulleys, and cranks that people used for crossbows at various points in history. Pulling the string back with your hand was pretty rare. Most were set braced on the ground and you'd pull the string into place with a lever using your whole back strength. Even a child could do it.

True, didn't think about those, or the recoil of guns pointed out by virgil.

So, yeah, guns can basically be pallet swapped crossbows. Maybe a longer range, or slightly higher damage. If someone really wants, they can build a strength for recoil thing in, but at that point why not note various strengths required for melee weapons, too?

[cthulhu]

The recoil from a black powder musket isn't that extreme. I can shoot one accurately, and I would doubt that I'd even qualify for str 10. The biggest issue is holding it properly.

[BearsAreBrown]

Recoil doesn't really affect the accuracy of the first shot unless you jerk the trigger. And if we figure that everyone in the world knows how to properly fight with all simple weapons then knowing how to properly fire a musket is at best a Martial weapon. The strength required to properly wield it properly is less then that of big two handed simple weapons too.

[fectin]

Range on early guns should actually be shorter if you're going for historic agreement.

Give crossbows a STR minimum, and reloading is a full round if you don't meet it and a move if you do (using a crank vs. Hulking out on the string).

[kzt]

I've read about battalions firing at another battalion at 50-100 yards and hitting like 17 guys. Who promptly charged and obliterated the firing battalion with bayonets.

"Effective" range of a smoothbore musket was at best something like 100 yards. That's where you have 50% hits.

A test vic. 1800 of infantry shooting at cavalry (1.75m x 3m targets) showed this:

Range	Percentage of hits
	Well Trained	Ordinary Soldiers
	Soldiers
100 yards	53%	40%
200 yards	30%	18%
300 yards	23%	15%

Note that these are shooting at 10 foot high and 5.5 feet wide targets. Against man sized targets it's a lot suckier.

[tzor]

Well, first of all, that's why you had at least two ranks of men. One rank is firing while the other reloads. Second, you also had the bowling balls ... the canon that would bounce balls along the field of comat to knock a few unlucky ones and scare the crap out of all the green men in the ranks. Third, after a few vollies from a distance (that basically did squat) the black powder "fog" was significant and made everything hard to see. Finally, those muskets had a nice reach when equipped with bayonette. The close formation set against the charge has the advantage against the rag tag charge of men moving at varying speeds. Especially when the other rank is currently firing at them.

On the other hand, there was also meritt to not shooting first ... muskets were massively short range weapons ... at short range "don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes" they were very wicked. You charge to a group that is loaded and ready and ... well it's not pretty.

[Krakatoa]

Also if you're talking fantasy gaming, realism should be secondary to fun anyway. I like the way Final Fantasy XII handled guns: they never miss, but never crit, essentially like the old Magic Missile. But if you wanted to angle it a bit more realistically, you could have them be low-damage at longer ranges but really effective up close.

One thing I'd do if I were introducing early guns is have them automatically grant Quick Draw (with that gun only, if they were pre-loaded) so that you could easily pull them out and use them in close range no matter the class.

[Molochio]

I favor the notion of guns having the ability to bypass armor. That way a bullet may be dodged or deflected, but getting shot typically means you have been shot.

[Prak]

Maybe on a crit, but I'm under the impression they bypass armour no better than arrows do, which, while they can, don't do so in D&D, and thus there's little to no reason for bullets to do so.

[Username17]

Just to throw gasoline on the fire of a rather stupid argument: in forensic medicine, we consider any bullet that comes from more than 2 meters away to be "long range".

-Username17

[MGuy]

There's an argument anymore? I thought it just turned into a discussion about guns in general.

[Prak]

Hey, at least it's not a dick waving contest anymore...

[fectin]

Just to throw gasoline on the fire of a rather stupid argument: in forensic medicine, we consider any bullet that comes from more than 2 meters away to be "long range".

-Username17

You probably also care about trajectory, where that bullet hits, and where it went. Unlike (just for example) DnD. Besides, how many range increments does forensic medicine actually have?

[Prak]

Just to throw gasoline on the fire of a rather stupid argument: in forensic medicine, we consider any bullet that comes from more than 2 meters away to be "long range".

-Username17

You probably also care about trajectory, where that bullet hits, and where it went. Unlike (just for example) DnD. Besides, how many range increments does forensic medicine actually have?

Long Range, Close Range, Point Blank, and "How the hell did it it exit without entering!?"?

[TheFlatline]

Just to throw gasoline on the fire of a rather stupid argument: in forensic medicine, we consider any bullet that comes from more than 2 meters away to be "long range".

-Username17

Which is why GURPS starts dishing firearm penalties at around 2 or 3 meters away.

Plus, if memory serves, Friday Night Firefight rules said that FBI statistics found that most gunfights took place at less than 20 feet, in poorly lit conditions, between untrained participants shooting more or less wildly, and that the first successful hit dropped the opponent even if it wasn't life-threatening.

[TheFlatline]

Also, early guns could probably be pallet swaps with heavy crossbows without much issue. The big advantage would be mainly that you could hold 20-30 rounds without a big-ass quiver. You could also make more ammunition for a rifle faster than you could for a crossbow.

With miniballs and more advanced weaponry, I'd make attacking a touch attack instead of factoring in D&D style armor class. Guns did, after all, put an end to traditional armor.