WH40K: Fifth Edition

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata »

cthulhu wrote:
Zinegata wrote:OOT again, but you make like this link cthulu:

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/gabel2.pdf

Merry Xmas!
You're never going to escape the fact that ATG's killed the most tanks. ;) Heck, the document notes that the germans would use overwatch ATG's to kill tanks on the offensive, not relying on their own tanks!
I said "You may like it" for this reason ;).

That being said, it does show that Americans were weird compared to the Germans and Soviets. Their towed ATGs performed much more poorly, and that their armored tank destroyers were more often than not seen as tanks. Also, their reliance on indirect fire was much greater - it turns out American M10s spent as much as 80% of their time employed as indirect fire pieces.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by cthulhu »

FatR wrote:
cthulhu wrote: You're never going to escape the fact that ATG's killed the most tanks. ;) Heck, the document notes that the germans would use overwatch ATG's to kill tanks on the offensive, not relying on their own tanks!
"On the negative side, the towed tank destroyer had proved to be a failure.
You know, unless you where german - the report specifically comments on the highly effective usage of towed ATGs by the germans :)
That being said, it does show that Americans were weird compared to the Germans and Soviets. Their towed ATGs performed much more poorly, and that their armored tank destroyers were more often than not seen as tanks. Also, their reliance on indirect fire was much greater - it turns out American M10s spent as much as 80% of their time employed as indirect fire pieces.
Yeah, the americans had a number of issues.
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Post by Koumei »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So, WH40K 5th Edition peeps.

If Satan came up to you and told you that unless you won the WH40K world tournament he would steal your soul and then make you look like, oh, Carrot Top, what kind of army with which colorful special units/commanders would you build?
I went and asked one of the better players, on sup/tg/, and got answers from everyone:

"Tell him to thin his paints"
"Suggest Chaos" (note: terrible advice)
"Nob Bikers"
"Don't play, just take the curse"
"Well it depends. I'd first say to actually get familiar with the rules, then make a list with good redundancy and that covers all the necessary bases. Make sure to abuse any stupid rules the tournament uses."

But some handy lists were provided anyway:
Eldar:
HQ:
Eldrad: 210

Elites:
2 Harlequins w/ Kisses, 1 w/ Kiss and Pistol, Shadowseer w/ Kiss and Pistol, Death Jester: 166 pts.
5 Fire Dragons, Scatterlaser/Shuricannon Serpent: 205 pts.
5 Fire Dragons, Scatterlaser/Shuricannon Serpent: 205 pts.

Troops:

6 Bikers, 2 Shuricannons, Spiritseer Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden: 211 pts.
6 Bikers, 2 Shuricannons, Spiritseer Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden: 211 pts.
5 Dire Avengers: 60 pts.

Fast Attack:
5 Warp Spiders: 110 pts.
5 Warp Spiders: 110 pts.
5 Warp Spiders: 110 pts.

Heavy Support:
Wraithlord: Dual Flamers, Scatter Laser, Missile Launcher: 135 pts.
Wraithlord: Dual Flamers, Scatter Laser, Missile Launcher: 135 pts.
Falcon w/ Stones, Holofield, Scatter Laser, and underslung Cannon: 185 pts.

Eldrad and the Dire Avengers go in the Falcon and serve as a Fortune/Guide/Doom bunker; alternately, Eldrad chills with the

Harlequins, or the Dire Avengers enter from Reserve while Eldrad and the Clowns go cruisng to beat up on a small unit.

Wraithlords hide behind the other vehicles. Warp Spiders and bikers are flying stunlock.
Orks:
HQ:
Warboss on Bike, w/ Klaw, Attack Squig, Kombi-Skorcha, Bosspole: 150 points
KFF Mek, Burna, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, Grot Oiler x2: 125 pts.

Elites:
12 Lootas: 180 pts.
12 Lootas: 180 pts.
3 Meganobz w/ 2 Kombi-Skorchas: 130 pts
-Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Kannon, Red Paint Job: 125 pts

Troops:
15 Shoota Boyz: 90 pts
15 Shoota Boyz: 90 pts
3 Meganobz w/ 2 Kombi-Skorchas: 130 pts
-Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Kannon, Red Paint Job: 125 pts
15 Grots, 1 Slaver: 55 pts.

Fast Attack:
2 Warbuggies with Rokkits: 70 pts
2 Warbuggies with Rokkits: 70 pts
2 Deffkoptas, 1 Buzzsaw: 95 pts.

Heavy Support:
Rokkit Kanz x3: 150 points.
Rokkit Kanz x3: 150 points.
3 Kannons, 8 Grots, Runtherd, Ammo Runtx3: 85 pts.

Total points: 2000 pts.
Guard:
Tactical Genius, Hurr.

HQ:
Creed, Astropath: 200 pts.
-Chimera w/ Multilaser, Hull-mounted HF, 55 pts.

Elites:
Stormtroopers: 2x Meltaguns: 105
-Chimera: Multilaser, Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer: 55
Psyker Battle Squad: 6 Psykers, Overseer: 80 pts.
-Chimera w/ Multilaser, Hull-mounted HF: 55 pts
Psyker Battle Squad: 6 Psykers, Overseer: 80 pts.
-Chimera w/ Multilaser, Hull-mounted HF: 55 pts

Troops:
IG Platooon
-Platoon Command Squad x4 Flamers, Vox: 55 pts
--Chimera w/ Multilaser/HF: 55 pts.
-IG Squad w/ Flamer, Vox: 60 pts
-IG Squad w/ Flamer: 55 pts
-Autocannon HWT: 75 pts
-Autocannon HWT: 75 pts

IG Veteran Squad, Demolitions: 100 pts.

Fast Attack:
Vendetta w/ 2x Heavy Bolters: 140
DevilDog w/ Heavy Flamer: 120 pts
Devildog w/ Heavy Flamer: 120 pts

Heavy Support:
Manticore w/ Heavy Flamer: 160
Manticore w/ Heavy Flamer: 160
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Heavy Flamer: 150

Points: 2000
Dark Elffar:
Poison Spam

HQ:
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier: 60 pts

Elites:
4 Trueborn, 2 Blasters: 78 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.
4 Trueborn, 2 Blasters: 78 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.
4 Trueborn, 2 Blasters: 78 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.

Troops:
5 Warriors, Blaster: 60 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.
5 Warriors, Blaster: 60 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.
5 Warriors, Blaster: 60 pts
-Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons: 65 pts.
5 Wracks, Flamer: 60 pts.
-Raider, Flickerfield, Prow: 75 pts.
5 Wracks, Flamer: 60 pts.
-Raider, Flickerfield, Prow: 75 pts.

Heavy Support
Ravager: Triple Dark Lances: 105 pts.
Ravager: Triple Dark Lances: 105 pts.
Razorwing w/ Flickerfield: 155 pts.

Points: 1499
Last edited by Koumei on Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

The Guard list seriously looks like a GW list.

I mean, Stormtroopers? You're seriously getting Stormtroopers? And regular IG squads with Vox? Autocannon HWTs and not Hydras? WTF?
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

I assume the Vox is to receive orders.
I'm not sold on the Storm Troopers, but maybe CREEEEEEDing them in from the side could be a useful tactic. Though really, anything they can do, the Devildogs can do better.
Heavy Weapon Squads because you'll notice all three Heavy slots have been taken up, there are no Hydra slots available. The idea is probably Turn 1: GTA the Chimeras with them, then drive 12" up to objectives. Park there. Turn 2+: each Chimera is unloading a Multilaser and 3 Autocannons.

Basic strategy there is the risky Outflanking gambit. Basically, you CREEEEEEEEEEEED a Devildog in from the side and suddenly, enemy tanks explode. Or one shot evaporates an entire command squad thing. But seriously, you kill tanks with it.

You're probably Outflanking the Vendetta as well, and then that's either popping vehicles (3x Twin Lascannon), or fucking up beefier infantry (as above, +2x Heavy Bolter).

But yeah, I wouldn't take the Stormies, personally. I'd spend the points on anything else at all. Fuck, even some more Troops just to park their asses on objectives/tie enemy units up in pointless CC.
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Post by Zinegata »

Creed + Devil Dog is okay. But if you're betting your soul on this list the rest of it is far from ideal :P.

You don't actually need a Vox to receive orders. It just gives a bonus to the leadership check (a reroll to be precise). Vox doesn't even extend the range you can give or receive orders (retarded I know).

Having one squad with Vox makes sense if you're making a blob for this purpose, but IG platoon here is too small to justify a Vox in my view. Sure, Creed also has an awesome order than gives Furious Charge and Fearless to IG infantry units, but the Guard aren't exactly known for going into melee and living :P.

If it were me, I'd switch out the Stormtroopers for another Veteran Squad + Chimera instead. Vets are cheaper and come with an extra special weapon slot. So you get three BS4 meltas (which can be fired _inside_ of the Chimera) instead of just 2 for 5 points less.

Otherwise, just take Stormtroopers without the Chimera - that way they can Deep Strike or Scout. That's what the extra 15 points are for - not the silly Carapace armor.

Heck, given how puny the IG Platoon is I'd just replace the IG platoon with another Vet squad with Chimera, plus two Hydras instead of autocannon HWTs.

This gives you six Chimeras (carrying Creed, 2 Psyker Squads, & 3 Vets), 2 Hydras, 2 Devil Dogs, 2 Manticores, an LR, and a Vendetta which will leave every weapon less than Str 6 utterly useless against you.

A stock LR would also be a better choice than an LR Exterminator. As there are still plenty of Marine players who stupidly leave their dudes in the open, and the battlecannon is just all-around more versatile.

Besides, the list already has plenty of Str 7 shooting, and the Hydras are MUCH better than HWTs for having armor, a hull-mounted Heavy Flamor, a special rule that ignores various cheating saves by skimmers and bikes, while STILL costing 75 points. Heck, if the list really needs Str 7 shooting, it's a better idea to get two Hydras instead of an Exterminator.

To fit all the heavies, just group the Hydras into one slot, and the arty in another.

I'm also seeing some outright errors on the list. Creed comes with a Company Command squad, which can be outfitted with stuff like extra special weapons and they're BS4. If he's aiming to have a fourth infantry unit that Creed can give orders to, the Company Command Squad can be it. Give it nice guns - every member of a CCsquad can get a special weapon.
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by cthulhu »

The biggest problem with the gimmick list is that the next edition will require a new gimmick list at vast cost.
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Post by Koumei »

That's all armies and lists for GW, not just the gimmick ones. Remember last nids? You basically needed 2x Genestealer broods and MANY MONSTROUS CREATURES. Now suddenly you're supposed to put the stealers away and use DIFFERENT MCs (or you can use none and just swarm).

And Zine, Manticores are 1 per Heavy, not 1-3. I can't even remember if Hydras are 1 or 1-3. So already that list you showed has too many Heavy choices.
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Post by Zinegata »

*rechecks Codex*

Hydras are 1 to 3 (got that right).

I thought Manticores can be had as part of the Ordnance battery, but I was wrong. Blargh. I'm over by 1 heavy slot.

So two Manticores for 2 heavy slots, and either 3 hydras or a Leman Russ for the last one. Or ditch one of the Manticores for the Hydras and LRs.

Spend the rest of the points on more Vets with Chimeras or something then. But definitely not HWTs, for pete's sake.
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by cthulhu »

The eldar list is the best list there.
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Post by Zinegata »

Yeah, a lot of the most overpowered lists nowadays involve bikes and their cheating saves.

Even more reason to get Hydra Flak Cannons, which ignore these cheating bike saves.

Dakka Dakka Dakka! :D
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by souran »

For all this discussion of overpowered lists:

Warhammer is to expensive for most people to play twink armies.

This is actually something I like about the game. Most peoples armies include mostly iconic stuff and most armies are really made of mostly of each factions basic troopers.

The expense of the game has a signifcant impact on the armies people play.

I have never actually played against an all cheese force that was not entirely a proxyed army.

This is probably the games one real saving grace, especially compared to warmchine where the smaller number of models in the game along with the games army building stucture seem to make playing a fully twinked out army is the goal.

However: This thread is about what you would do if you had to play warhammer with the devil for your soul.

I think the first thing you should do in that case is demand that the game be played in the "warhammer grand tournmnament/games day" style where the victor of the tournament portion is often NOT the winner.

See the warhammer grand tournmnament scores you on

1) how your army looks
2) how much sportmanship you show
3) how well you do in the actually games

IN THAT ORDER.

I wouldn't want to try and "out pain" the devil, but I do think that he will lose a ton of points on sportsmanship thus rendering the entire contest one of who can be more gracious as they lose.

If you can't be a better human being than the devil then you probably don't give a crap if he takes your (probably quite worn out) soul.
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Post by Spike »

By your formulation, you also have to out paint the devil, or at least tie him, if you want to turn the contest into one of basic humanity and sportsmanship.

Since you will probably lose at that, you are stuck with being the better sportsman AND bringing the pain at the table.
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Post by Zinegata »

It depends. Some armies (i.e. Guard) will be expensive just to get within the point range. Others, not so much.

I think what's currently ratcheting up the cost for a lot of armies are the cheap transports. Stuff like Chimeras now only cost 55 points, but dollar-wise cost almost as much as a Leman Russ (which is worth about 3x more points-wise).

For the Guard, the Chimeras aren't such a big issue because otherwise they'd be paying and painting a ton of little guys instead anyway... But for other armies (i.e Space Marines) it's expensive (dollar-wise) to buy transports, but very attractive as it's very cheap, point-wise.

There are also some people who actually go buy bits for specific special weapons, rather than customizing their current ones. That also rachets up the dollar cost.
Last edited by Zinegata on Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

souran wrote:For all this discussion of overpowered lists:

Warhammer is to expensive for most people to play twink armies.

This is actually something I like about the game. Most peoples armies include mostly iconic stuff and most armies are really made of mostly of each factions basic troopers.

The expense of the game has a signifcant impact on the armies people play.
How can you possibly see this as an advantage?

I don't play WH40K (or any tabletop wargames), but I played the Star Wars CCG back in the day, and it was based on this style (where the powerful cards were rare and expensive, enough so that most people didn't have them, or didn't have a lot of them). All this meant was that:

a.) you couldn't easily play games with someone who was significantly more invested in the game than you (if you did, they either played weaksauce or they steamrollered you).

b.) the winners at tournaments were all guys with lots of money rather than the people with good tactics. This changed a bit later (after making many of the more common cards more effective), but I can't really say that was great for the game either, and the winners were still people who could afford to buy, say, 8 Outer Rim Scouts (or other key rare cards) on eBay.

c.) you couldn't play a deck with the feel of the movies (i.e. Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, etc) unless you ponied up the dough.

I realize the 2 situations are not completely analogous, but I'm having a hard time seeing the advantages of "the best stuff is too pricey for you to build a fully twinked out army(deck)". In WH40K, it seems to mean you field an army of mostly grunts, which is authentic. In SW:CCG, it meant you would play a Dark Side deck composed of stormtroopers and TIE Fighters, and a Light Side deck of X-wings and miscellaneous rebels. It really wasn't all that much fun. And it was even less fun when the guy who shelled out for 3 Obi-wans (or whatever the WH equivalent is, I don't know, the Chapter Master and Psyker Librarian and so forth) goes up against you and pulps you.
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Post by Starmaker »

PoliteNewb wrote:c.) you couldn't play a deck with the feel of the movies (i.e. Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, etc) unless you ponied up the dough.
This could have been fixed by making iconics virtually free, as it was done in L5R with clan champions.
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Post by Zinegata »

The truth about a lot of collectible games is that they tend to become an arms race. The person with the more money has a better chance of buying better arms to win.

I tend to play casually, especially with CCGs nowadays. Magic Cubes are a one-time investment and are a load of fun.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

Starmaker wrote:
PoliteNewb wrote:c.) you couldn't play a deck with the feel of the movies (i.e. Darth Vader or Obi Wan Kenobi, etc) unless you ponied up the dough.
This could have been fixed by making iconics virtually free, as it was done in L5R with clan champions.
Agreed, and they did eventually take a similar fix...they made special versions of the iconics, which you could buy in promo boxes; still money, but at least you knew that for $10 you were getting Luke or Han or whoever. And they were good cards, very useful (arguably better than the original rares).

But then you're not doing what was suggested...a system where the best, most "twinked out" cards (minis) are rare and expensive. So this doesn't at all speak to the point of: what is the advantage of such a setup?
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.

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Post by Zinegata »

It encourages an arms race that makes the publisher more money :P
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Post by Koumei »

So, I caught up with MagicJuggler (the guy who suggested those lists).
<MagicJuggler> Also, Ace
<MagicJuggler> Zinegata is wrong.
<MagicJuggler> About the Stormtroopers
<MagicJuggler> Because remember, if a unit has Scouts
<MagicJuggler> It gives it to its transport
<Sleepin_Acacia> There's actually a universal rule: Zinegata is always wrong.
<MagicJuggler> Normally, I like Hydras
<MagicJuggler> I do not like the opportunity cost involved with them in this kind of list
<MagicJuggler> Especially since if I don't go first, I probably will be entering from Reserve anyway.
<MagicJuggler> Also, why I took Manticores
<MagicJuggler> Also...
<MagicJuggler> >Implying I should ditch manticores.
<Sleepin_Acacia> So basically, the manticores come in from reserve as well?
<Sleepin_Acacia> And you end up with Outflanking: "flyers", devildogs (CREEEEEEEEED), chimeras (Stormies)
<MagicJuggler> Yes.
<MagicJuggler> They can direct-fire.
<MagicJuggler> If I go first, I do not outflank the stuff.
<MagicJuggler> I just go for Scouts
<Sleepin_Acacia> Ah right
<MagicJuggler> There's a reason I took Demovets instead of Meltavets
<MagicJuggler> Because turn 1 "I assault your entire carlot"
<MagicJuggler> The other reason I took Stormtroopers, is because now and then some person is a wise-guy
<MagicJuggler> And decides to bring Kroot
<MagicJuggler> And infiltrate next to the army so it cannot scout
<MagicJuggler> Having my own infiltrators lets me say "lol-no"
<MagicJuggler> Alternately, if I'm doing a Reserve, then I'll have the Chimera come in from normal reserve, and have the Storm Troopers Deep Strike
<MagicJuggler> The extra deployment options, plus the fact they're not Troops, gives me more options in using them suicidally
<MagicJuggler> Now...if I really wanted to be stupid, or generate extra rage, I could juggle the points some more and buy a Grey Knight Terminator Hero. And attach him to a Stormtrooper unit
<MagicJuggler> He'd deep strike next to a transport with Seer Council Eldar, and surprise buttsex them with an Incinerator.
<MagicJuggler> Again, it's a stupid trick. Not viable. But funny as hell.
<Sleepin_Acacia> hahaha
<MagicJuggler> The Stormtroopers make him more accurate in his initial drop too, due to RAW.
<MagicJuggler> Nobody touched down on the Ork list. It's not a list I would sell my soul to win with (Orks, egads no)
<MagicJuggler> But it is a list that punishes people who try to "play the meta."
<MagicJuggler> If you forgot to bring proper weapon coverage (overly spam meltavets in favor of say, Autocannons), it will hurt you.
<MagicJuggler> Now, if you overly spam autocannons in favor of, say, meltaguns...
<MagicJuggler> The Battlewagons go in front and screen as you advance forward.
<MagicJuggler> Also, I am still loling at Zinegata.
<MagicJuggler> As Autocannon HWT still have their use over hydras
<MagicJuggler> Not competing slotwise for one thing
<MagicJuggler> Rather easy to give them cover.
<MagicJuggler> Low profile.
<MagicJuggler> I can be a git and run the equivalent of Stealth for them
<MagicJuggler> ("Go to Ground" then "Get Back in the Fight.")
Wolf Wolf List
110: Rune Priest in Power Armour w/Chooser of the Slain; Tempest's Wrath; Storm Caller.

121: 2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
121: 2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
121: 2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun

160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun
160: 5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer & Wolf Standard, Razorback w/ Lascannon, TL Plasmagun

90: 1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)
90: 1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

128: 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino w/ HKM.
128: 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino w/ HKM.
128: 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino w/ HKM.

Total points: 1997

<MagicJuggler> If anyone asks about the Wolf Guard being too small, mention they were shunted to the Long Fangs.
Last edited by Koumei on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

*pats pats Koumei* Yes Koumei. You are a good girl.

Anyway, didn't realize you could Scout your own transport. That would make a Chimera/Stormie squad FAR more useful. I might have still been thinking in the former edition terms wherein getting a transport keeps you from using Deep Strke.

Juggler sounds like a pretty cool guy is a pretty frakking brillant Guards player. Any way to contact him?

Because I'd still like to know why the hell he took HWTs, and given how devilishly clever this guy is I might be surprised to the point of gleeful giddiness. :biggrin:
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

He says he can be found at www.defeat-in-detail.blogspot.com and wishes you to comment there (but hasn't updated in ages).

<MagicJuggler> At any rate, I don't really have any real use for HWT aside from wanting a secondary source of Autocannons that can score and not compete slotwise with Fast Attack/Heavy Support.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Zinegata
Prince
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:33 am

Post by Zinegata »

Koumei wrote:<MagicJuggler> I can be a git and run the equivalent of Stealth for them
<MagicJuggler> ("Go to Ground" then "Get Back in the Fight.")
Ok, please tell him that's incredibly cute. :thumb:
<MagicJuggler> At any rate, I don't really have any real use for HWT aside from wanting a secondary source of Autocannons that can score and not compete slotwise with Fast Attack/Heavy Support.
That, again, is pretty frakking brillant.

Thanks for the link.
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Explain Matt Ward hate to me, please.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Username17
Serious Badass
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Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Explain Matt Ward hate to me, please.
Mostly it comes from Fantasy Battle. For 40K he did stuff like the meandering and confusing Marines codex with far too many weird doctrine options and trap choices and stuff. But the codices for 5th edition are basically all like that, so whatever. But for Fantasy Battle, he did a setup of Orcs & Goblins and Lizardmen. And those were catastrophic.

See Lizardmen and Orcs & Goblins armies are supposed to be made out of a bunch of different races with complementary skin that have wildly different stat lines and different tactical purpose and all that shit. When you mix in "lots of trap choices" that starts turning into entire species of your army being made offensively useless. The animosity rules can seriously make the value of diversifying your orc army negative in real terms (even though yes, it costs real points).

So people were primed to hate Matt Ward. He writes meandering piles of nested options that look unedited to the naked eye and unplaytested to the experienced eye. Then he wrote Daemons of Chaos, a book about playing an entire army of chaos daemons with unmodifiable saves in fucking Fantasy Battle. That... offended people.

-Username17
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