Dreamscarred Press' "Complete Control" rules

[Prak]

has anyone else looked at them? I know Koumei has, her IRC game's using them, I hadn't heard about them until she asked for help on that.

Basically it's a somewhat clumsy d20 point buy kludge, taking away classes, and just using xp to buy all the aspects of your character, from HD, to skills, to abilities, etc.

I'm liking the grab bag capability, I was able to put together a nice demonologist/diabolist type character grabbing spheres and some "you're becoming a fiend" stuff from various classes, without much regard for classes and levels.

But the microtransactions and clumsy ability categorizing is confusing.

[Username17]

Nothing like that is even vaguely balanced. Wizards don't get bonuses to Reflex Saves because they want them, they get them because the game would be even more Rocket Launcher Tag than it already is if Wizards could (and thus did), trade them in for more powerful spells or higher DCs.

When you throw balance completely out the window like that, I frankly don't understand why you'd even bother having a system at all. At that point you might as well just make arbitrary characters like a 4e Monster. Or even go full Münchhausen. I really don't understand what the point system is bringing to the table.

-Username17

[Prak]

Well, the system's not the selling point on Koumei's game for me, it's the campaign she's running. I honestly haven't acid tested or anything, but looking at things objectively... my 5th level character has a quasit and imp following him around, is immune to fire, acid, electricity and poison, can throw eldritch blasts all damn day, summon a demon, devil or yugoloth once a day, and has nine spells at will because expert access to the first three spells of a sphere is actually ridiculously cheap, so much so that it's more cost effective to pick up expert access to the first three spells of a new sphere than pick up the fourth spell in one you have. He has paladin hit die and saves, and clr bab, it's probably pretty damned broken compared to normal characters... fuck, now I want to run him against a cheesed 5th level transmuter...

[Koumei]

For the record, I knew it would be an unbalanced* nightmare as soon as I heard the basic idea. But I went with it because players wanted to try it, and this specific group seems pretty good with that stuff.

So yes, I am going to have to look to see if the Rogue with 5d12 HP and 8d6 Sneak Attack is legit for a "level 5" character (probably is, because although variable abilities have costs that scale rapidly, there are so many Sneak Attack classes that you could go "Sneak Attack (Rogue) 3" + "Sneak Attack (Rokugan Ninja) 3" + "Sneak Attack (Spellthief) 4-ish" + One Last One, for a lot cheaper than "Sneak Attack (Rogue) 15").

But that's actually the craziest that I'm looking at: a 2 attacks per round character who makes ranged attacks (not touch attacks - wrist-launched daggers instead of flasks) for lots of sneak attack damage and runs fast. So although I condemn the book on principle, in this instance it's working okay, as though it were more the "Alternate Edition" we were going for where it's pseudo-point-buy with the "Select a level-appropriate ability. Your numbers scale automatically, non-negotiable".

*Even by D&D standards. Like, even if we pretended all PHB classes were nicely balanced against each other, this would be a nightmare.

[Prak]

yeah, I figured it was something like that, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that seems to have taken the book over my knee...

[mean_liar]

"Buy the Numbers" attempts something similar. I have it but have never bothered to try and use it.

[stormhierta]

Just felt like chiming in that you can only take Sneak Attack once from a particular source and then you are supposed to scale it. So buying it three times "from" three different classes would not get you 3d6 Sneak, but rather three times the very same 1d6.

But anyway and anyhow. Just saying.

[Midnight_v]

Just felt like chiming in that you can only take Sneak Attack once from a particular source and then you are supposed to scale it. So buying it three times "from" three different classes would not get you 3d6 Sneak, but rather three times the very same 1d6.

But anyway and anyhow. Just saying.

Quick question have you ever read the tome series? You see really only Melee warriors, Gish and rogues multiclass at all so.. you know if a rogue is taking a level or something else to gain an additional 1d6 sneak attack or a fighter is to gain 2d6 sneak attack its probbably still not breaking the game. However doing level appropriate damage by being locked into a class is fair if thats the standard for all...

[stormhierta]

Yeah I read the Tome Series, or atleast the first ones that came out in... 2004? Way back.

Now, I responded to how Complete Control was meant to be used, since there seemed to be a misunderstanding about how one would get Sneak Attack in that series. Now I didn't write it, I just helped proofread it for release, but I talked alot with the author.

[Surgo]

One of the people on my wiki owns a copy. It was a long time ago, but we looked at uploading it there if it was OGL. I can't remember if it was or not, but if it was that seems to have stalled out for now.

[stormhierta]

It's all OGL and if there IS a Wiki, feel free to come over and share it with us!

[Koumei]

Thanks for that clarification, storm. The game didn't even get off the ground anyway (and Frank seems to have been correct on a different note: players don't actually want to build their characters from the ground up, they might say they do but they don't), but that's good to know.

[Prak]

(and Frank seems to have been correct on a different note: players don't actually want to build their characters from the ground up, they might say they do but they don't), but that's good to know.

Probably broadly true, but I often lament the fact that I can't, say, take level six of demonologist, as my sixth level, but level one, so I actually did like building my character from the ground up. It gives you more of what you want, and a better, or at least more firm, grasp of what all your character can do, since you selected everything yourself.

[For Valor]

Doesn't this tie in a little with K's talk about people wanting to be their archtype now and not later?

[Koumei]

I want to take level 20 of Wizard as my first level. Can I do that?

And that is why your example there is terribad.

[Prak]

I want to take level 20 of Wizard as my first level. Can I do that?

And that is why your example there is terribad.

er... not exactly. I may have worded poorly (though jumping into level 20 of wizard when leveling up a 19th level fighter is still a good point...)

I mean, focusing on one's character level and class levels being "what you get when you take a level of this class at this character level." Which is probably still a poor explanation, but...

You go from level 4 to level 5 and decide to multiclass into druid. Instead of becoming a {whatever}4/druid 1 and gaining first level druid abilities, you have the abilities of levels 1-4 in {whatever} and the fifth level ability of druids, Wildshape, instead of it's 1st level abilities (wild empathy, etc. etc.)
That's what I was talking about, and that's why the Complete Control concept appeals to me.

[Koumei]

And the fifth Druid level happens to have all the spellcasting of a 5th level Druid. You're giving up little fillers to cut straight to the good stuff, which means everyone starts by playing a Barbarian (for HP at level 1, which matters), then carefully jumps from class to class so as to pick up the best things.

Or even does a simple Odd Rogue/Even Fighter thing.

In general, players can't actually be fucked making the character up whole from pointbuy (particularly in a game that traditionally has a whole bunch of things that normally just scale on their own - HP, BAB, 3 Saves, Skills, Other). Those that do it quickly figure out they can lose the "useless junk" and just go SUPERKILLEXTREMEPLUS mode.

[hogarth]

Nothing like that is even vaguely balanced. Wizards don't get bonuses to Reflex Saves because they want them, they get them because the game would be even more Rocket Launcher Tag than it already is if Wizards could (and thus did), trade them in for more powerful spells or higher DCs.

I thought that you've said favourable(ish) things about Hero/Champions in the past. How is this any different from any other point buy system, in terms of its flaws and merits?

[Prak]

And the fifth Druid level happens to have all the spellcasting of a 5th level Druid. You're giving up little fillers to cut straight to the good stuff, which means everyone starts by playing a Barbarian (for HP at level 1, which matters), then carefully jumps from class to class so as to pick up the best things.

Or even does a simple Odd Rogue/Even Fighter thing.

In general, players can't actually be fucked making the character up whole from pointbuy (particularly in a game that traditionally has a whole bunch of things that normally just scale on their own - HP, BAB, 3 Saves, Skills, Other). Those that do it quickly figure out they can lose the "useless junk" and just go SUPERKILLEXTREMEPLUS mode.

You're right, it's still a terrible idea, but it's why I like at least the concept of Complete Control, and point buy in general. But, I'm not sure whether it really works for D&D

[stormhierta]

Having played with the guy who wrote this though, I can say that this isn't how things work with Complete Control.

You don't buy "the fifth level of Druid" and gain everything from that specific level. If you want spellcasting like a fifth level Druid, you buy access to their spell list and then buy up the progressive spellcasting from 1st to 5th level.

What the system does allow is for an Urban Druid who has no animal companion or wild empathy, but does have more skill points and +1d6 of Sneak Attack learned at the streets.

[Username17]

Well, mostly what the system does is allow for players to have access to whole new vistas of failure as they gain the ability to choose from bewildering arrays of potential character ability combinations that don't synergize or do anything level appropriate. And a very minor array of characters who trade in every possible nugget of breadth for a vast synergistic beatdown that lets them crush the CR system even worse than Wizards and Druids do now.

Point buy systems for D&D have always been shitty. And always will be shitty. Point base and level base are different systems and you are wasting your time trying to hybridize them.

-Username17

[Avoraciopoctules]

How large are are the point buy numbers being talked about here? Does a level of spellcasting cost more than a point of BAB or die of SA damage?

[fectin]

How large are are the point buy numbers being talked about here? Does a level of spellcasting cost more than a point of BAB or die of SA damage?

But specializing always beats generalizing in D&D. If you're a wizard, and you can give up anything to increase your caster level, you do it and don't look back. As far as I know, that's what "optimizing" means. There is no situation in which "more spells" is less advantageous than e.g. BAB. At best, you're in a screw-you antimagic field, where it doesn't matter because wizards have crap BAB anyway.
Compare the Amber diceless system, where you always have weaknesses which are exploitable (often by the other people at the table), and trading down a significant amount on any one area actually makes you overall less capable. Not that it matters, because the setting will shit on you whatever you do and it's MTP anyway. But pulling actual mechanics out does make it easier to talk about.

[mean_liar]

What the system does allow is for an Urban Druid who has no animal companion or wild empathy, but does have more skill points and +1d6 of Sneak Attack learned at the streets.

This is sounds like an absurdly abusable system, as are all point-buy systems.

[Koumei]

I can't say I know of any point-based system that isn't highly abusable and filled with trap options. It's not just "D&D is level based, you can't just change it a little bit and expect it to work", you'll find it in WoD, SR, BESM and your mum.