Worst Official DM NPCs In Published RPG Settings

[ColorBlindNinja61]

You know the type. The big dick wavy NPCs that are supposed to either fuck the players over or keep the setting's status quo. The especially bad ones arbitrarily win any conflict they might have with the PCs, but some of them are just so OP they pretty much will always win even though they technically have stats.

I think the worst examples of this are either the Lady of Pain or Exalted's various major antagonists. I'm not super familiar with Exalted, but just reading about the Deathlords made me want to puke. I also seem to remember Cain from Old World of Darkness having a write up that says, "LOL! You lose!"

I'm sure people can think of more examples of these kind of penis extension NPCs. Bonus points if the designers didn't understand their own system and make what they thought was an invincible Mary Sue, but turns out to be piss weak. I think Elminster and his girlfriend posse are the most infamous example of that category.

EDIT: To make sure this is clear, I'm talking specifically about official NPCs from published settings.

[OgreBattle]

I figure if the DM is fudging everything behind the scenes to get their desired result, the PC's themselves are the DMPC

[PhoneLobster]

I don't like the term DMPC.

And not just because it sounds like something invented by a child that didn't even know what an NPC or a DM actually is.

My main problem is that people who use the term often use it to conflate various problems into an amorphous mass of pointless confusion.

I'd go through a bunch of them. But lets just keep it simple and directly relevant.

Isn't every NPC covered in the opening post something introduced to the game by Designers not by DMs?

Maybe for this subset of examples you should instead call them "DesignerPCs". And even then you'd be still conflating at least two different remaining problems and using a silly name that doesn't clearly suggest what it's meant to impart.

edit:And wow, come to think of it, then there is Ogrebattle's post, which takes whatever specific meaning "DMPC" had at all then just up out of nowhere beats it to death on a rock made of highly questionable agendas for no apparent reason.

[Thaluikhain]

The big dick wavy NPCs that are supposed to either fuck the players over or keep the setting's status quo.

A quibble, but aren't those two separate things? "Because your mother the Lady of Pain says so" seems more reasonable (at least to me) than an all-powerful NPC the PCs directly interact with who exists for the purpose of annoying them or making the DM (or, ok, designer), feel big.

[Blade]

If the status quo is kept by a single NPC, then it means that the status-quo falls out of the window as soon as that NPC dies.
Since PCs often have the ability to kill people, you end up with these NPCs getting all kinds of ridiculous buffs and fuck-you powers just to make sure they aren't killed.

So I'm not sure these are separate things.

[Thaluikhain]

True, but, again taking the Lady of Pain as an example, does she do anything to interact with the players? Unless they decide to break her rules and explicitly do something they know they aren't supposed to, she leaves them alone, right?

If she was to rock up at the PCs house and order them to go on quests or something, that'd be different, IMHO.

More on topic, I can't think of any examples, beyond the famous ones already given. One or two pop up in Dragon Warriors, but the system is obscure.

[Chamomile]

True, but, again taking the Lady of Pain as an example, does she do anything to interact with the players? Unless they decide to break her rules and explicitly do something they know they aren't supposed to, she leaves them alone, right?

If she was to rock up at the PCs house and order them to go on quests or something, that'd be different, IMHO.

This is a valid distinction. The Lady of Pain is a crutch used to prop up setting assumptions about how Sigil works, a sloppy stand-in for the kind of real worldbuilding that would describe a Sigil-like society's ability to actually sustain itself (and defend itself from disruption from 3-6 murderhobos) but still better than nothing. A DMPC whose job is to show up and give the PCs quests that they can't refuse and then steal the limelight by striking the finishing blow themselves isn't just inferior to a hypothetical version of the setting that used proper worldbuilding instead, that kind of DMPC is actually worse than nothing.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

True, but, again taking the Lady of Pain as an example, does she do anything to interact with the players? Unless they decide to break her rules and explicitly do something they know they aren't supposed to, she leaves them alone, right?

If she was to rock up at the PCs house and order them to go on quests or something, that'd be different, IMHO.

If you're a member of the Independents faction, there's a 2% the Lady of Pain infects you with a deadly disease every time you enter Sigil. No save. She absolutely fucks over the players.

Even today, she monitors the Free League more carefully than she does any other faction. And, amused by historian's attempts to attribute the massive Indep deaths to some sudden plague, she's created a real plague that's striking the League today. Every time an Indep PC enters Sigil, the DM must secret roll percentile dice for that character. roll of 98 or higher indicates the PC has caught the fever and will die in either ldlO days (if the percentile roll was 98 or 99) or 1d20 hours (if the percentile roll was 00). During that time, the PC remains in a feverish state, unable to fight, speak, or even think coherently. No cure or resurrection attempts will succeed outside of Tradegate; only in that Indep gate-town do they know the dark of curing the plague. (The DM's free to invent the specifics of the cuff. - Ed.)

And that's not even getting into the President of the Anime Club problem she creates.

[Thaluikhain]

Ah, ok, wasn't aware of that, that is obviously terrible. One wonders what they were thinking, and what proportion of DMs decided not to ignore that.

[Krusk]

I'm working on some backstory to give people about Sigil, because the concept is really cool.

The deeper I go into the lore around it, and the lady of pain, the worse it gets. You'd be better served tossing her, and most of the factions, than reworking them just to distance yourself from any association.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

I didn't really go into much detail about the NPCs in Exalted. I'll mostly just refer to to this thread.

Particularly because new statblocks for them tended to be in line with intent of these rules. Whenever new mechanical information about Deathlords and their peers was published, it gave them massive fucking upgrades. Mask of Winters, the 1E corebook Deathlord, was, for example, upgraded from Essence 7 to 10 in 2E corebook, with appropriate increases in other stats, and was given an arbitrary Fuck You ability that completely ignored existing guidelines for mental effects. As a result, even most ardent WW supporters on rpg.net just state outright that you pretty much need an Essence 5 full Solar circle, with five Lunars, all fully optimized for combat, other support and some massively favorable circumstances (in particular, the Deathord not actually retreating, once he figures out that the rate of Essence attrition does not allow him to kill all of his enemies in one battle) to beat the being that is supposed to be one of the weakest GMsticklords, even if he doesn't use Charms outside of the corebook and the Abyssal book Charms that are explicitly granted to him by his writeup (i.e, no SMAs or crazy high-Essence Charms from Dreams of the First Age). And there is strong evidence, that even with this most limited interpretation of his abilities, and even with this massively unfavorable setup, he still can totally fucking win such battle, and PCs need to really abuse various powers from outside of their books, if they want to prevail. They also still need plotdevicite to fuckung make this abomination of NPC design stay dead.

[PhoneLobster]

If this is just a thinly veiled thread to complain about bad settings in general with a focus on Planescape I'm all for it. I always thought Plainscape is a wildly over rated setting and arguably right up there as one of the worst, possibly the single worst, official D&D setting ever created.

But if its just about setting police NPCs, celebrity NPCs you just might meet, and giving them rocks fall you all die powers or not. Those are like, three different things and in the current examples not even ones done by DMs.

[merxa]

I give the lady of pain a pass since she's more of a setting than an npc, it's like complaining the plane of fire burns you, the lady of pain a plot crutch to explain away why gods, demigods, and pcs don't wreck sigil. They could of come up with other explanations but that's the one they went with, and yeah there are shitty rules in the original setting, but it just seems par for the course at the time.

The original dmpc for me would be Elminster.

A more recent example, in dragon's heist, after the PCs discover the dragon's horde, the open lord Laeral Silverhand shows up with a bunch of veterans and possibly other faction leaders and dictates to the PCs that they are to give 90% of the treasure to the city.

In actual games, DMPCs are defined by me by npcs that the DM cares more about then the PCs and will adjust reality, stat blocks etc, as needed to let them succeed even at the expense of the PCs.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

I give the lady of pain a pass since she's more of a setting than an npc, it's like complaining the plane of fire burns you, the lady of pain a plot crutch to explain away why gods, demigods, and pcs don't wreck sigil. They could of come up with other explanations but that's the one they went with, and yeah there are shitty rules in the original setting, but it just seems par for the course at the time.

The Lady of Pain is a shitty explanation for why there aren't gods in Sigil. It's shit design and I don't know why people insist on defending her.

It's one thing to say, "Oh it was AD&D, such were the times.", but it's not the 90s anymore. Why is anyone defending this type of Gygaxian fuckery still?

The original dmpc for me would be Elminster.

He's definitely one of the more infamous examples. What I find amusing about Elminster is that his statblock in 3.X is so shitty, you could kill him with a PC nearly half his level.

If this is just a thinly veiled thread to complain about bad settings in general with a focus on Planescape I'm all for it. I always thought Plainscape is a wildly over rated setting and arguably right up there as one of the worst, possibly the single worst, official D&D setting ever created.

But if its just about setting police NPCs, celebrity NPCs you just might meet, and giving them rocks fall you all die powers or not. Those are like, three different things and in the current examples not even ones done by DMs.

I thought I made this clear in the OP, but I guess not... This thread is about official NPCs in published settings that exist either to preserve the status quo and/or dick the players over. I listed a few examples in the OP and was curious if anyone had any other examples.

A more recent example, in dragon's heist, after the PCs discover the dragon's horde, the open lord Laeral Silverhand shows up with a bunch of veterans and possibly other faction leaders and dictates to the PCs that they are to give 90% of the treasure to the city.

Like this. This is an example of what I wanted. Thank you merxa.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Actually, speaking of examples, I remembered one from Tomb of Annihilation, which my group recently wanted me to convert to 3.5.

Acererak (yeah, the guy from Tomb of Horrors) is the final boss and is CR 23. In a campaign that's only reaches level 11... Yeah, Acererak only shows up if you kill the Atropal, but that's still a dick move.

And for whatever reason, having one Lich wasn't enough for ToA, they jam in another one for pretty much no reason. She's CR 21.

[Hicks]

Agraham, the sorcerer of moderate power, was my personal DMPC for my world's largest dungeon campaign. Agraham was evil, and would drop electric substituted fireballs centered on the enemy, regardless of any PCs within the radius. He was built *exactly* like a PC, with the same level and same equipment budget, *and also took a share of the XP*. The rogue and monk would usually save, and have evasion.

But the party Paladin?



edit: oops. Read the OP and wanted to share. Maybe edit in the #OfficleDMpcOnly into the OP.

[PhoneLobster]

I thought I made this clear in the OP, but I guess not... This thread is about official NPCs in published settings that exist either to preserve the status quo and/or dick the players over. I listed a few examples in the OP and was curious if anyone had any other examples.

The problem is "DMPC" none of those PCs were made by DMs. Yes, DMPC has at some point become the same as "every NPC I don't like", as far as I'm aware originally it had slightly more specific meaning than that which would exclude every NPC you listed, but whatever, past or present it's a dumb term that detracts from your more specific topic.

And your more specific topic still has issues.

Are you complaining about the specific NPCs, or the functions they perform, or the execution of it?

Which precise thing about say, Elminster is the problem here?

Is the very concept of a setting celebrity NPC something you are against?

Or is it them being wildly over powered?

And if Elminster being poorly optimized for his level is somehow also bad... how is that bad? Just because the possible intent was to be overpowered and they missed? Wouldn't the ideal celebrity NPC be one that PCs the same or even lower level can beat or outshine be... at least theoretically but probably not in the case of any officially released Elminster, what we actually want from celebrity NPCs most of the time?

Is the Lady of Pain remotely the same thing as an Elminster or is she just another multi faceted symptom of a horrible setting idea executed in a horrible way at every opportunity?

Is maybe the problem with the lady of pain that she is less some shitty celebrity no one wants to like and more that she is like a shitty Rocks Fall You All Die that constantly pops in to kick your knees and steal your lunch? Doesn't that look less like typical bad NPCs and more like the "the gods are real, omnipotent, and care about your knees and your lunch" thing which mostly pops in with setting/GM mishandling of gods specifically?

And maybe is everything that White Wolf touches just bad?

If it's just "list every official NPC you hate for any reason at all, reasons not included" then OK... I guess... bit of a time waster...

[ColorBlindNinja61]

The problem is "DMPC" none of those PCs were made by DMs. Yes, DMPC has at some point become the same as "every NPC I don't like", as far as I'm aware originally it had slightly more specific meaning than that which would exclude every NPC you listed, but whatever, past or present it's a dumb term that detracts from your more specific topic.

I'm not terribly interested in whatever original connotation DMNPC had, it has a very specific (and broader) one now. I don't care if we call them Big Dick NPCs instead.

And your more specific topic still has issues.

Are you complaining about the specific NPCs, or the functions they perform, or the execution of it?

Yes to all.

Which precise thing about say, Elminster is the problem here?

His very existence causes plot holes. I will say that Elminster specifically isn't as problematic as the Lady of Pain and Exalted's antagonists.

Is the very concept of a setting celebrity NPC something you are against?

Or is it them being wildly over powered?

More the latter than anything. I would prefer that the focus of a campaign be the PCs, not an NPC.

And if Elminster being poorly optimized for his level is somehow also bad... how is that bad? Just because the possible intent was to be overpowered and they missed? Wouldn't the ideal celebrity NPC be one that PCs the same or even lower level can beat or outshine be... at least theoretically but probably not in the case of any officially released Elminster, what we actually want from celebrity NPCs most of the time?

I never said it was a bad thing, I said I found it amusing.

Is the Lady of Pain remotely the same thing as an Elminster or is she just another multi faceted symptom of a horrible setting idea executed in a horrible way at every opportunity?

They both limit the type of stories you can tell in their respective settings, so yes, they do have commonalities.

Is maybe the problem with the lady of pain that she is less some shitty celebrity no one wants to like and more that she is like a shitty Rocks Fall You All Die that constantly pops in to kick your knees and steal your lunch? Doesn't that look less like typical bad NPCs and more like the "the gods are real, omnipotent, and care about your knees and your lunch" thing which mostly pops in with setting/GM mishandling of gods specifically?

That would indeed be my primary objection to the Lady of Pain.

And maybe is everything that White Wolf touches just bad?

No argument there.

If it's just "list every official NPC you hate for any reason at all, reasons not included" then OK... I guess... bit of a time waster...

I was pretty specific what type of NPCs I'm talking about. I even edited the thread title for the sake of clarity.

[PhoneLobster]

Are you complaining about the specific NPCs, or the functions they perform, or the execution of it?

Yes to all.

So, for instance, you are complaining about the very function of setting police NPCs as being bad. Minus the bad execution, minus the specific examples given, NPCs policing settings are automatically bad?

Because without any additional and separate bad things setting police definitely include things like "Low level town militia guy #29 whose job it is to stand at the gate say who goes there and turn away anyone who says bandits".

Might be taking ACAB a bit far there.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Are you complaining about the specific NPCs, or the functions they perform, or the execution of it?

Yes to all.

So, for instance, you are complaining about the very function of setting police NPCs as being bad. Minus the bad execution, minus the specific examples given, NPCs policing settings are automatically bad?

Because without any additional and separate bad things setting police definitely include things like "Low level town militia guy #29 whose job it is to stand at the gate say who goes there and turn away anyone who says bandits".

Might be taking ACAB a bit far there.

Are you seriously trying to conflate low level mooks with the types of powerful NPCs that are often implemented to keep players from making large scale changes to the setting?

Because that is in no way equivalent to what I'm talking about and is a massive strawman.

[Dogbert]

Personally I like to call them "RPeen NPCs": (spoilered demonstrative material)

While NPCs like Elminster, Nadja Taviar, Doctor Destroyer (or any Champions' supervillain, considering Peterson and friends' self-serving writing style), Theo Bell (or any WoD NPC) and others were written by the games' writers and not the GMs, those NPCs are clearly created for use of the GM's penis to dickwave and cockslap their players around to taste. By the same token, every NPC in a licensed game counts as a potential RPeen NPC considering those games' demographic tend to view the respective license' cast with religious fervor (every Luke appearance in a Star Wars game is gonna be s2 Mandalorian's ending).

Hi again, everyone.

[PhoneLobster]

Are you seriously trying to conflate low level mooks with the types of powerful NPCs

I'm complaining that that is what you are doing by declaring their function to be a problem because you wanted to glibly answer "all of the above".

The problem with setting police isn't that there are police in the setting. The problem is exclusively one of execution and power levels.

You absolutely DO want NPCs running around trying to enforce all sorts of setting norms and conceits all the damn time at all levels of play. Getting relative power levels of encounters wrong is the problem, absent that the basic thing they are doing is fine if not vital.

Same as I for one absolutely DO think setting celebrity NPCs are potentially fine. They can perform all sorts of useful functions as long as their relative power level in encounters is appropriate.

Even the actual DMPC, the thing only Hicks has even mentioned, isn't automatically bad, it's a matter of execution, mostly of the execution in terms of power levels.

None of these things have an issue with function or role. The specific NPCs have problems, because of their execution.

Famous dual wielding dark elves with stupid names aren't remotely the fundamental problem here.

Sure you can point and laugh at them when they are (and possible also when they aren't) but doing it the way you seem to want to is devoid of value if not outright counterproductive.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Are you seriously trying to conflate low level mooks with the types of powerful NPCs

I'm complaining that that is what you are doing by declaring their function to be a problem because you wanted to glibly answer "all of the above".

No, my answer didn't even remotely imply that. Mooks that preform functions like law enforcement in a setting are in no way equivalent to NPCs who cockblock the players for trying to make large scale changes to the setting. Stop conflating the two.

Sure you can point and laugh at them when they are (and possible also when they aren't) but doing it the way you seem to want to is devoid of value if not outright counterproductive.

If you don't like the thread's topic, no one's making you participate.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

While NPCs like Elminster, Nadja Taviar, Doctor Destroyer (or any Champions' supervillain, considering Peterson and friends' self-serving writing style), Theo Bell (or any WoD NPC) and others were written by the games' writers and not the GMs, those NPCs are clearly created for use of the GM's penis to dickwave and cockslap their players around to taste. By the same token, every NPC in a licensed game counts as a potential RPeen NPC considering those games' demographic tend to view the respective license' cast with religious fervor (every Luke appearance in a Star Wars game is gonna be s2 Mandalorian's ending).

Also, thank you for the succinct explanation Dogbert.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

I'm complaining that that is what you are doing by declaring their function to be a problem because you wanted to glibly answer "all of the above".

I will attempt to go into more detail, one last time, then I give up.

There are three elements here.

1. Specific NPCs.
I think that's self-explanatory.

2. Functions of said NPCs.
In this case, enforcing the status quo. And let me make this clear. I'm talking about far reaching effects on status quo. Not minor mooks. As if that needed to be said.

3. Execution.

This is vague and can mean a lot of things.

The problem with setting police isn't that there are police in the setting. The problem is exclusively one of execution and power levels.

NPCs shouldn't enforce the status quo. There's no reason to. If the party wants to change it, why can't they?

EDIT: I don't need to clarify I'm talking about status quo of the setting as a whole, do I?