Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

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Ancient History
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Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

Post by Ancient History »

So, I've been stalled on Space Madness! for a bit - not out of lack of interest, but lack of time to really work on it, and having not really thought far enough ahead as to what I wanted to do with critters. Which has led me to think and re-think my approach to abilities.

One thing I liked about D&D3.x is that it had clearly-defined class abilities. One thing I didn't like is that many of those class abilities were shit, poorly conceived, and poorly implemented. And this kind of feeds back into my design goals for Space Madness!, so in the interests of getting my head space where it needs to be at, I want to go through several classes' worth of abilities and see what they did good, bad, or indifferent...and why.

Starting off:
Hexblade from Complete Warrior.

Ignoring weapon/armor proficiencies, spells, familiars, and bonus feat to concentrate on the unique abilities:
Hexblade's Curse (Su): Once per day, as a free action, a hexblade can unleash a curse upon a foe. The target must be visible to the hexblade and within 60 feet. The target of a hexblade's curse takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 hexblade's class level + hexblade's Cha modifier) negates the effect.

At every four levels beyond 1st (5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th) a hexblade gains the ability to use his curse one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 1—1. Multiple hexblade's curses don't stack, and any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same hexblade's curse for 24 hours.

Any effect that removes or dispels a curse eliminates the effect of a hexblade's curse.

A hexblade can utter only one hexblade's curse per round, even if he gets multiple curses per day.

Greater Hexblade's Curse (Su): When a hexblade attains 7th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -4 instead of -2.

Dire Hexblade's Curse (Su): When a hexblade attains 19th level, the penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls incurred by a target of the hexblade's curse becomes -6 instead of -4.
Verdict: This is okay. It's a magical ability that gives the PC new options, and the higher the character's level the more time they can use it. Negatives: it's an X-uses-per-day ability, which is less than ideal, especially as a (Su) ability. The numerical penalty is technically static, which is bad in a level-based game, but actually increases with level - they just broke it into two other abilities for whatever stupid fucking reason. It's still not great, because the ability is nerfed all to hell and the obvious points of expansion (increased number of uses per day/increased penalty) aren't built-in.

How to fix it: Make hexblade's curse a spell, change it to spell-like, penalty effect is level-based. Pretty easy. I still don't like X-uses-per-day, and honestly as one of the characteristic abilities of the Hexblade you could make it at will and I don't think that would be unbalancing, since the curses don't stack.
Arcane Resistance (Su): At 2nd level, a hexblade gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1) on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
Verdict: This is...less-great. Just giving out bonuses is a bit shit, it doesn't provide new options or abilities, jut a mechanical bonus to an existing ability...and those bonuses don't normally improve with level. This one is tied to Charisma, which is not as bad, since you can improve your Charisma in various ways but...eh. Not sure how to fix this one either.
Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Verdict: Solid. This expands the PC's abilities in a tangible way, and scales by level nicely.
Aura of Unluck (Su): Once per day, a hexblade of 12th level or higher can create a baleful aura of misfortune. Any melee or ranged attack made against the hexblade while this aura of unluck is active has a 20% miss chance (similar to the effect of concealment). Activating the aura is a free action, and the aura lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the hexblade's Charisma bonus (if any).

At 16th level and higher, a hexblade can use his aura of unluck twice per day. A 20th-level hexblade can activate this aura three times per day.
Verdict: Okay. I really dislike "X number of times per day" abilities. I would prefer if this was like "burn a spell slot to activate" instead, or something else that worked off the hexblade's main gimmick. The effect itself is fine from a level point of view (20% is 20% regardless of mechanical bonuses), although the limited number of uses per day sucks.

How to fix: Instead of 1-3 uses/day, have them burn 4 levels of spells slots to activate.

You could probably narrow this down further by formalizing the effects as spells and then just letting the hexblade spontaneously convert spell slots into them, and compensate by giving them more spell slots as they level. But you get the general idea.

Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Arcane Attunement (Sp): You can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic a combined total of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier. These spell-like powers do not count against your total of spells known or spells per day.
Verdict: Meh. Giving you a grab-bag of lower-level spell-like effects instead of just giving you an equivalent number of spell slots and spells known is a bit shit, isn't it? It's really splitting your resource pool into spells and spell-like abilities, and while none of these are bad by any means, it would be faster, easier, and more versatile to just give them more cantrip slots.
Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A duskblade's limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields. This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.

At 4th level, you learn to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.

At 7th level, you learn to use a heavy shield with no chance of arcane spell failure.
Verdict: Crap. This is one of those abilities that is almost generic across multiple classes, as it is used by multiple classes with almost the same wording. It's also nerfed all to hell to prevent multiclassing shenanigans (which is the entire point of a gish to begin with) and interacts with a shitty legacy mechanic.

How to fix it: Wearing armor does not cause any chance of arcane spell failure. Done.
Combat Casting: At 2nd level, you gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat.
Any ability which is just "you gain a feat" is not an ability.
Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.
Verdict: Solid. I mean, you're probably not going to equip a 30-foot pole and use flaming fist to destroy doors in a dungeon or anything, but I like that that is a legitimate option. This augments the character's options, so is a solid ability.
Quick Cast: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast one spell each day as a swift action, so long as the casting time of the spell is 1 standard action or less.

You can use this ability twice per day at 10th level, three times per day at 15th level, and four times per day at 20th level.
Verdict: Meh. This is kindof a version of Quicken Spell feat, only you can only use it X times per day and there's no cost to it. There's also no way to improve it except leveling up to get more uses per day, which caps out at a whopping four at level 20.

How to Fix It: Modifies the Quicken Spell feat by cutting the cost in half (i.e. instead of taking up a spell slot 4 levels higher, it takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher). That way you decide how often to use it, and whether the cost is worth it - all about increasing options, not just providing X number of uses per day.
Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can more easily overcome the spell resistance of any opponent you successfully injure with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, you gain a +2 bonus on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level, to +4 at 16th level, and to +5 at 18th level.
Verdict: Crap. It's a slightly-level-based flat bonus to a relatively obscure check which only works if you actually hit something - literally, punch them or something - to get it to work. It's just a weird ability that has been nerfed all the way down.

How to fix it: Two options: either just give a level/based bonus to the caster level check to overcome spell resistance, or if you hit them then you can ignore spell resistance. Both approaches have their benefits and drawbacks. Straight bonuses are unexciting, but if the bonus is level-commensurate (I'd be looking at something more like +1/level) then at least useful; having to hit someone to activate an ability is a kind of stupid activation cost (a lot of opponents are glass ninjas anyway), but if you can just ignore spell resistance that's substantial - especially since your main other abilities are casting spells and channeling them through melee attacks, so there's some synergy there.

Warmage (Complete Arcane)
Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause his spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). A warmage's limited focus and specialized training, however, allows him to avoid arcane spell failure as long as he sticks to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavier armors, nor to heavy shields. Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.

At 8th level, a warmage learns to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
See above. This is actually the shittier version, since it caps out sooner...and why? I mean, if they have to have armor-based arcane spell failure chance, and Armored Mage is the answer to that, and it improves with level...why not just have it as a generic ability that continues to level up? Why have it so this class gets a shittier version of it than that class?
Warmage Edge (Ex): A warmage is specialized in dealing damage with his spells. Whenever a warmage casts a spell that deals hit point damage, he adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to the amount of damage dealt. For instance, if a 1st-level warmage with 17 Intelligence casts magic missile, he deals 1d4+1 points of damage normally, plus an extra 3 points of damage due to his Intelligence bonus. The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells that he casts as a warmage, not to those he might have by virtue of levels in another class.
Verdict: Nerfed to death. Comments about mechanical bonuses stand, but this could be an okay ability if not for the fact that it was specifically written to not be of any fucking use whatsoever except in the narrowest of contexts (i.e. warblade spells). The general concept of "your spells hit harder" is good, but they seem to be afraid that it was too good. But too good is the point.

How to fix it: Remove the nerfing, make the damage bonus level-based instead of or in addition to Int-based.
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th level, a warmage can add a new spell to his list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a wizard spell of the evocation school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the warmage already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to that warmage's spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on the warmage's list.
This doesn't need to be an ability. There are a few abilities like this out there, where one class can pinch spells off of another class's list, and they're all pretty shit because the lists should not be so limited that and shit that you'd want to spend one of your few level-based abilities nicking a spell off another class's list. Warmage needs to use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Sudden Empower: At 7th level, a warmage gains Sudden Empower (described in Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Sudden Enlarge: At 10th level, a warmage gains Sudden Enlarge (described in Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Sudden Widen: At 15th level, a warmage gains Sudden Widen (described in Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Sudden Maximize: At 20th level, a warmage gains Sudden Maximize (described in Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.
See above about getting feats as abilities.

At this point I should add that this isn't about "fixing" these classes or balancing these abilities - this is like studying Roman ruins and trying to figure out what they did right or wrong, or why they did what they did and how to emulate/avoid it when you're building your own place. It's about sifting ideas and why things worked and why they don't, free from the absolute context of the class itself.

So, maybe one more for right now...

Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane)
Ignore Spell Failure Chance (Ex): A Suel arcanamach’s practice at merging spellcasting and swordplay results in a reduction in the arcane spell failure chance associated with using armor or shields. This reduction starts at 5% at 1st level and increases by 5% every three levels thereafter. The arcanamach subtracts the given percentage value from his total spell failure chance, if any. For example, a 1st-level arcanamach wearing a mithral shirt has a spell failure chance of 5%, not 10%. This ability only functions when the character casts a Suel arcanamach spell.
This is a kindof-equivalent ability to Armored Mage, just instead of giving a pass to specific categories of armor, it gives you a reduction in spell percentage. This is probably the better-designed ability in most respects, as it reduces the percentage itself (which is good) and it improves every level (better). It's still not great, because it only applies to Suel arcanamach spells (lame), and it's a shitty penalty that shouldn't exist in the first place. If this were a build-your-own-class scenario, you might be able to do some sort of economy-shopping version of these features - if you know very specifically what armor you're going to wear at what level, for example, then Armored Mage might have an advantage, if it was cheap enough - but even then, that feels situational.
Tenacious Spells (Ex): An arcanamach’s Suel arcanamach spells are particularly difficult to dispel; add 6 to the DC required to dispel the character’s arcanamach spells.
Verdict: Static bonuses suck. +6 DC becomes less and less relevant as the levels and the bonus dice stack up.
Dispelling Strike (Su): Once per day, a Suel arcanamach of 2nd level or higher can attempt a dispelling strike with one normal melee attack. If he hits, he deals normal damage, and the victim is subject to a targeted greater dispel magic. The arcanamach’s dispel check is 1d20 + class level + 6. If a Suel arcanamach makes a dispelling strike against a creature with no spells or effects to dispel, the dispelling strike has no effect, but the ability is used up for that day. At 6th level, an arcanamach can use this power two times per day, and at 10th level he can use it three times per day.
Verdict: Okay. Not great, because it's still an X-times-per-day power, and it's weaker than just giving you greater dispel as a spell-like ability, because there' a condition on using it. Still, as you level up and Base Attack Bonus increases, this ability remains fairly relevant, as every part of it levels up too.

Aside: One of the good things about shadow magic from the Tome of Magic was the idea that you had these spell-like abilities, and as you leveled up you could use them more often per day. At a certain point they could even become at will, which is sort of the golden standard for "That sounds cool." And indeed, being able to do a greater dispel magic at will via successful melee attack is awesome at around 6th level. It's an ability you could even have a lot of fun with improving, because there are other abilities that improve dispel attempts and variant dispel spells that have other effects. But that would require this ability to be structured in such a way for PCs to be able to use it way more often and improve it way more cheaply and easily...neither of which is true.
Extended Spellstrength (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a Suel arcanamach knows how to extend the duration of spells that he casts on himself. The duration of any of his Suel arcanamach spells with which he targets himself is doubled, as if affected by the Extend Spell feat (but without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or casting time). For instance, a bull’s strength spell cast by a 3rd-level Suel arcanamach on himself has a duration of 6 minutes rather than 3 minutes. Spells that target multiple targets are affected by this power, but only the arcanamach gains the extended duration. For example, a 5th-level arcanamach who casts haste would be hasted for 10 rounds, while his allies would gain the effect only for the normal 5-round duration. Spells that do not have a Target entry are unaffected by this power even if the arcanamach is the only one affected.
Extend Spell already exists as a feat, so my thoughts on this are similar to the Quick Spell ability above.

Which does beg the question: why did they do the feat/ability dance? Giving someone a feat as a class ability is a bit shit (you might as well make it a generic bonus feat and let them choose their own), and taking a feat and turning it into a limited ability is also shit, since you're removing versatility from one end (uses per day) in exchange for eliminating a not-terribly-great cost at the other.

I could go on. And I might! Later.
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Post by Rawbeard »

Hexblade's Curse reads like the Witch's Evil Eye hex, except sad. I'd rather like the Hex mechanics, so I would not be ashamed ripping them off
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Post by Blicero »

Ancient History wrote:Verdict: Crap. This is one of those abilities that is almost generic across multiple classes, as it is used by multiple classes with almost the same wording. It's also nerfed all to hell to prevent multiclassing shenanigans (which is the entire point of a gish to begin with) and interacts with a shitty legacy mechanic.
Is the bolded portion really true? I would assume the intent of the Hex- and Duskblade classes was to give players gish options without requiring them to figure out a complicated multiclassing scheme.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I've always understood the complicated multi-classing as an attempt to create the concept using the existing rules, but a 'new class' that just achieves it certainly makes sense.

Like, if you could create a character by taking levels in a certain order, feats, etc and at the end you end up with a character that is some kind of 'spell blade', you might as well just make a 'spell blade' class that spells those steps out. Instead of Wizard then Fighter then Ranger, etc, even out the progression. Since it is already POSSIBLE, you're just simplifying the execution.

And in most cases, the complicated multi-classing doesn't end up working, so building a new class that does actually achieve the goal and is otherwise balanced is even better.
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Post by Ancient History »

Blicero wrote:
Ancient History wrote:Verdict: Crap. This is one of those abilities that is almost generic across multiple classes, as it is used by multiple classes with almost the same wording. It's also nerfed all to hell to prevent multiclassing shenanigans (which is the entire point of a gish to begin with) and interacts with a shitty legacy mechanic.
Is the bolded portion really true? I would assume the intent of the Hex- and Duskblade classes was to give players gish options without requiring them to figure out a complicated multiclassing scheme.
I was talking in general rather than for the Duskblade in particular, because the Armored Mage ability crops up in a lot of different classes with some variations - but the point is that a Duskblade's Armored Mage ability only works for Duskblade; if you want to dip into anything else, you're punished for it - and that's true for pretty much every incarnation of Armored Mage in every class.

The idea of the gish is ultimately to pursue a mix of martial and magical ability - but D&D3.x always had a lot of difficulty realizing any synergy with that, despite many attempts with a number of subsystems. Duskblade, Hexblade, etc. were efforts to formalize a path that was a little more straightforward than Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, but at the cost of losing the versatility which was the whole point of multiclassing to begin with.

Which is a long way to say: people want to play a given concept and D&D makes it harder for them to play what they want to play. When D&D tries to give you what it thinks you want, it does it in a way which usually satisfies nobody. People wanted a higher level of customization within classes, not a shit-ton of more classes.
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Post by WiserOdin032402 »

I would almost say that the reason they do the dances with feats is that someone on the team realized that you only get 7 and they basically mean nothing so why not hand them out for free? Of course if this was the thought process I wonder why it simply stopped at the class level.
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Post by jt »

Bolting "this class's spells only" onto your ignore-ASF feature is wrongheaded because it creates a new instance of the problem the class is supposed to solve. People want to play wizard fighters and it's awkward in your system, so you make a wizardfighter, sure. But now that you're aware of this you should be able to guess that someone will want to make a wizardfighter bard, so don't add extra rules that only prevent that.

On the very same class as one of those, the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling works on all arcane spells, not only Duskblade spells, so it's also inconsistent. And of the two abilities, this is actually the one that has dangerous game balance implications since it can be used to break some resource constraints and the action economy. (But you need a high level gestalt game before you actually can take advantage of that, so good job, designers.)

Arcane Channeling is one of my favorite designs in 3.5. It's short, easy to understand, serves a purpose, and recontextualizes a huge chunk of content. "What if this but also sword?" isn't the most profound way to shake something up, but it's better than most of what you see in this game.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Regarding classes, I think that for most people there are two conflicting desires. The first is 'gotta catch them all'. If there is a level where you have to make a choice there are going to be people that DEFINITELY want x, some that DEFINITELY want y, and there are some that really want BOTH. Sometimes these are probably unnecessary choices - if a Ranger could chose Ranged AND two-weapon combat style, they'd be more similar to Legolas as depicted in the LotR movies and, perhaps more importantly, they'd have options for both melee and ranged combat, rather than getting stuck with only one solution regardless of the problem... Clearly, if you're using melee attacks having ranged abilities doesn't matter at that moment and vice versa. So sometimes the 'choices' are arbitrary and you should probably just give the character the full suite of options...

But there are also times where the class as envisioned doesn't make sense for what the player is trying to do. I think a certain amount of 'variant class' abilities make sense - you surrender a class feature for a different 'equivalent' class feature. If you have a vision of a wilderness wanderer, but you don't want a pet, you should be able to give up your Animal Companion and choose an equivalent power. The issue there, of course, is that some things synergize better with one class's other powers than another.

I do think that players generally want to avoid a 'classplosion', but the way to achieve that is to ensure that each class is complete in itself - that is, you can play the character you see on screen or read in novels without needing 3-4 supporting characters - but that isn't completely independent. A rogue is often pointed to as a fair approximation of what you're looking for - they have enough skills and relevant abilities to participate in most aspects of the game at low-level, and they have some features that let them use magic at higher levels to continue contributing, and the way damage scales they can participate in combat, too. But they don't have healing; they don't have great options against undead, etc.

A major problem in 3.x was the way it used prerequisites. You often had to take a feat or class that you didn't want in order to qualify for a feat or class that you did want. There are some times where it made some amount of narrative sense, but not usually.

My favorite example of that is Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. At 1st level you can spend a feat and you might have a choice of attacking +5 1d10+6 or +3/+3 1d8+4/1d6+4; that's a reasonable choice to make at 1st level and maybe you want to make that something people have to invest in - not everyone should get it for free. But at 11th level, you can have +21/+16/+11 1d10+2d6+12/+21/+16 1d8+2d6+12 or something, and that same feat gives you one more attack at +11 - against a Level Appropriate Cloud Giant you're not going to usually hit on that extra attack anyway. Even if you always did, that extra 21 hit points of damage is 12% of your opponent's total, when at 1st level, the two attacks against a Monstrous Centipede (Large) had a real chance to finish the encounter in a single round. That 7 points of average damage was 50% of the monster's total.

Essentially, the cost of some abilities increased while the returns on the investment decreased - your 'new abilities' at high levels were not improving on the abilities available at 1st level.

So that's a long rambling way of saying each class should cover a complete concept - don't start chopping bits off so the concept doesn't stay viable - you already have levels to gate abilities to ensure that power levels stay reasonable. And if you do have a complete concept you can create another class that also covers a complete concept, but giving people some flexibility to alter that concept is also important. I think giving the Cleric some 'alternate features' so they could do the Paladin thing probably makes more sense than making a Cleric base class and a Paladin base class - they don't really cover different conceptual space.
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Re: Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

Post by maglag »

Ancient History wrote:
Tenacious Spells (Ex): An arcanamach’s Suel arcanamach spells are particularly difficult to dispel; add 6 to the DC required to dispel the character’s arcanamach spells.
Verdict: Static bonuses suck. +6 DC becomes less and less relevant as the levels and the bonus dice stack up.
Maybe for other stuff, but there's very few ways of boosting dispel beyond CL increase, none of which are bonus dice as far as I can remember (besides action points I guess).

Since CL scales linearly and boosters for it are pretty rare, with even +1 over the normal progression being considered pretty valuable, a whooping +6 is pretty hardcore, in particular when it stacks with the other effects.
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Post by Ancient History »

WiserOdin032402 wrote:I would almost say that the reason they do the dances with feats is that someone on the team realized that you only get 7 and they basically mean nothing so why not hand them out for free? Of course if this was the thought process I wonder why it simply stopped at the class level.
The feat economy is shit, but the designers did cotton on to the fact that feats were very attractive. They are small, usually succinct packages of some simple bonus or ability...and they could be chained together...and most of them were not restricted to any single class (with many exceptions). Feats were so popular in the dynamic of being able to design your own character that both the Fighter and the Wizard class were basically built around the concept of bonus feats.

But there were two problems:

1) You could never afford all the feats you wanted to have;

2) Even if you could, many of the feats were terribly designed and not worth taking.

Going over the feats is a lot like going over the abilities, but whereas the abilities are packaged together and supposed to at least nominally contribute to some overall design concept of a character class, the feats are just piles of random hot garbage which may or may not have been designed with respect to anything. So you have feats that are straight up static bonuses like Weapon Focus which are trash at higher levels but necessary because they're prerequistes for things, to "Style" feats that give you various maneuvers, to feats that give you spell-like abilities, or expand on some version of your class abilities, or in some other way improve life.

And the thing is, in d20-derivative games like Mutants & Masterminds where you can just buy more feats, some interesting options crop up. Feats like Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability, for example, are usually of limited utility on their own - you would never want to piss away 1/7th of your feats on one of those. But, if that isn't a restriction anymore, then those feats become a lot more interesting. Weapon Focus by itself is shit because the bonus doesn't scale with level, but if you can just buy more bonuses then the opportunity cost of taking it is much less and it becomes much more attractive - the difference between paying 1 mana for an ornithopter and 0 mana for an ornithopter.
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Re: Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

Post by Koumei »

Ancient History wrote:The numerical penalty is technically static, which is bad in a level-based game, but actually increases with level - they just broke it into two other abilities for whatever stupid fucking reason. It's still not great, because the ability is nerfed all to hell and the obvious points of expansion (increased number of uses per day/increased penalty) aren't built-in.
I don't know, -2 is always -2. When you're rolling 1d20+3 against an AC of 15, the -2 takes you from a 12+ to a 14+. When you're rolling 1d20+30 against an AC of 32, the -2 takes you from a 12+ to a 14+. Whether attack bonuses and armour classes scale like that or not is another matter, of course, but in theory that should be fine. It's more that telling someone "your special abilty is you can give someone a -2 penalty" spells out how boring it is (and even when it's -6, you're not exactly making them moist). Rawbeard mentioned the hexes of the Witch, which as a PF class of course came out after the Hexblade, but yes, it'd be better to have the Hex do different things, and you could basically scratch out their shitty casting ability (such as you can call it a casting ability) and give them an array of hexes with different effects.
Make hexblade's curse a spell, change it to spell-like, penalty effect is level-based.
I'm not sure how that helps matters: SR would apply, and the Save DC would be stuck at (effective spell level + 10) plus Charisma unless you then add in "the Save DC is 10 + half your level + your Charisma Bonus". Which you don't have to add for a Supernatural ability, you can just say "it's Charisma-based".
I still don't like X-uses-per-day, and honestly as one of the characteristic abilities of the Hexblade you could make it at will and I don't think that would be unbalancing, since the curses don't stack.
Yeah, change it to a Swift Action instead of Free (it's not like they had a plate full of other things to spend their Swift Action on) so they don't just spam it "until it works", or just say "a Free Action once per round" if you really want to keep their Swift Action open, then make it at-will, and watch as the world does not collapse under the horror of a -2 penalty.

Also one Dragon magazine offers feats for additional types of Hexblade Curse, and most of them are just "the penalty only applies to X, but is 2 points bigger", so are more specific (I wouldn't say "situational" because we're talking about a situation of "making an attack roll") and just bigger numbers, so still boring. But I think there's also the ability to affect a group of people at once, cause Spell Failure and stuff. It also provides some weapon and armour magic properties specifically for them, and if I could remember what they were I'd mock them for probably being shit.
This is...less-great. Just giving out bonuses is a bit shit, it doesn't provide new options or abilities, jut a mechanical bonus to an existing ability...and those bonuses don't normally improve with level. This one is tied to Charisma, which is not as bad, since you can improve your Charisma in various ways but...eh. Not sure how to fix this one either.
The funny thing is that this is the kind of ability people take dips in classes for. "I'm already Charisma-based, how easily can I snag a way to add this to something?" It's not an iconic part of the class, it's not interesting or exciting, but it's the numerical boost that people will search for. Especially in the PC games where "having big fuck-off combat numbers" is basically the be-all and end-all - when Kaedrin made the Hexblade for NWN2 he seriously "had" to make it explicitly not stack with the Blackguard ability because otherwise everyone would go Hexblade/Blackguard and have +2*Cha to saves! (not present here: useful abilities for actually doing things)

I'd also like to mention that PHB2 introduces an alternate feature that is more interesting and better than a familiar. Yes, your familiar has your BAB and half your HP and you're a Full BAB guy with a d10 hit die so your frog or cat or whatever can reliably bite people and take sledgehammers to the face. But it's still not actually doing much. Instead, the shadowy companion thing hands out a useful automatic penalty and is "a spooky essence that floats around the place and affects things without even being real or able to interact with the world". That's kind of cool.
How to fix: Instead of 1-3 uses/day, have them burn 4 levels of spells slots to activate.
Or if your Hex isn't at will, make them share a pool. I think there's a feat that lets you spend uses of one for extra uses of the other (on a 1-for-1 basis IIRC), possibly with a silly "5% chance to convert into TWO uses, 5% chance to not use up the thing being converted" mechanic added. I know it exists in the NWN2 one but that might not have been based on something that exists in the books.
Duskblade
So Channelling is the only thing we care about, and I wish to correct something that people often say. "You can use it to channel any Arcane touch spell, not just Duskblade ones!"

Bullshit. That is not what it says. What it actually says is it can channel any spell with a range of touch (sadly, not anything with any kind of Touch Attack - so all those Ranged Touch Attack spells on the Duskblade list are useless for that). The word "Arcane" appears in the name of the ability but not the actual description of the limitations, so feel free to take 3 levels of Duskblade and 17 levels of Cleric.

As for bypassing Spell Resistance, technically you already get +1 per level (that being your Caster Level), so another +1 per level would just remove Spell Resistance most of the time. I'd prefer it to be "hit someone -> no SR for a round" or even "spells channelled through your weapon via the class feature ignore SR as long as you hit their actual AC and didn't do some kind of touch attack".

Warmage Edge (Ex):
I like how CArc has a feat that improves their Edge by increasing the damage by 1 or 2. That really helps, well done guys. Yeah, it needs to be more. Really, you could probably just put Empower on for free and I am not sure they have a single spell that breaks the game when you do that.
Warmage needs to use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Even if you just limit it to a few schools that should be fine. Evocation and Conjuration are a given (even if they do something dumb like only taking Summoning spells and Mage Armour and not taking any spells that benefit from their Edge), maybe add Necromancy and you could make an argument for Transmutation or Abjuration. Possibly "They get Evocation, Conjuration, and any two of Transmutation/Abjuration/Necromancy". That way it's way more limited, you have a more specific set to choose from, tailored to a specific role, but you don't need to do any extra work every time you release a book that has new spells in it (which is to say, every single book). I mean, when a book has new Assassin spells, but "Warmages don't need new additions because they can just take Sorc/Wiz spells via an extremely limited class feature", it's dumb.
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Re: Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

Post by Emerald »

Koumei wrote:
Ancient History wrote:Warmage needs to use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Even if you just limit it to a few schools that should be fine. Evocation and Conjuration are a given (even if they do something dumb like only taking Summoning spells and Mage Armour and not taking any spells that benefit from their Edge), maybe add Necromancy and you could make an argument for Transmutation or Abjuration. Possibly "They get Evocation, Conjuration, and any two of Transmutation/Abjuration/Necromancy". That way it's way more limited, you have a more specific set to choose from, tailored to a specific role, but you don't need to do any extra work every time you release a book that has new spells in it (which is to say, every single book). I mean, when a book has new Assassin spells, but "Warmages don't need new additions because they can just take Sorc/Wiz spells via an extremely limited class feature", it's dumb.
I don't know if you and/or Ancient History missed/forgot it because he's skimming over the Spellcasting feature, but warmages know every spell on their spell list automatically, they don't choose spells known like a sorcerer. New books didn't add warmage spells because that would add new spells to every single warmage character, and since it's meant to be sort of an "easy-mode blaster" class that would be counterproductive.
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Post by OgreBattle »

What class are you balancing around?

Hexblade, I always wanted one to be good 'cause of the rad Wayne England artwork:
Image

Hexblade is such a very specific ability though, it feels weird to have it alongside the "Do everything" cleric. Either the cleric gets broken into different classes for each domain choice, or the hexblade gets folded into a "spellblade" class with a bunch of options.
The idea of the gish is ultimately to pursue a mix of martial and magical ability - but D&D3.x always had a lot of difficulty realizing any synergy with that
The Cleric is the gish that works, yeah?
One thing I liked about D&D3.x is that it had clearly-defined class abilities. One thing I didn't like is that many of those class abilities were shit, poorly conceived, and poorly implemented. And this kind of feeds back into my design goals for Space Madness!, so in the interests of getting my head space where it needs to be at, I want to go through several classes' worth of abilities and see what they did good, bad, or indifferent...and why.
One of the problems to me, not just from balance but from a "how do I remember 1000+ pages of stuff.." angle is a hexblade's cursing is mechanically different from a cleric's cursing and a wizard's cursing and a monster's cursing and another kind of monster's cursing and a related monster's cursing.

I'd love to see a Pokemon style "here's a list of all the powers" move list that gets distributed to the PC's and monsters. So when Gengar or Ninetales use 'Hex', I know what it does.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Orca »

A few specific feats given by a class seems to me to be better than requiring every class feature to be its own unique thing. If you had free range to choose feats then combat casting isn't one you're going to take, but it makes sense for the duskblade to get it or something like it. Similarly for all those sudden metamagic feats of the warmage.
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Post by Yesterday's Hero »

Orca wrote:A few specific feats given by a class seems to me to be better than requiring every class feature to be its own unique thing. If you had free range to choose feats then combat casting isn't one you're going to take, but it makes sense for the duskblade to get it or something like it. Similarly for all those sudden metamagic feats of the warmage.
"Feats as class features" is also cool if they allow you to get it early/ignore the pre requisites, like how you can play a 2 weapon fighting ranger with low DEX. Never mind the fact that 2 weapon fighting rangers are shit, you guys get the point.
Last edited by Yesterday's Hero on Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rethinking D&D Class Abilities

Post by Ignimortis »

Ancient History wrote:
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th level, a warmage can add a new spell to his list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a wizard spell of the evocation school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the warmage already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to that warmage's spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on the warmage's list.
This doesn't need to be an ability. There are a few abilities like this out there, where one class can pinch spells off of another class's list, and they're all pretty shit because the lists should not be so limited that and shit that you'd want to spend one of your few level-based abilities nicking a spell off another class's list. Warmage needs to use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Or it's just the best implementation that WotC could come up with for a solid idea. Personally, I consider "the Wizard/Sorcerer list" to be as bad for D&D as "Fighters who are only good at fighting and not even that usually". There's no archetype that needs this much access.

Warmage and its' kin, DN and Beguiler, are much more in-line with what a mage should be, IMO. Very narrow specialization (probably about two schools) and maybe a trick or two pilfered from other people.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I think that's a good point. Too many spells make a class very broad and doesn't really provide much information. A 'wizard' who has only evocation spells is very different from a wizard with a good spell selection and/or scrolls/wands with lots of utility spells. If you accept that, though, you really have to think about where to draw the lines on access.

I think it's very easy to think of Elementalist wizards (fire mage/water mage etc). In Avatar, they pretty much did exactly that - if you were an Earth Bender, you weren't ALSO a Fire Bender. But if you like the idea of a Fire Mage, it's hard not to support a Lava Mage (Earth/Fire). Do you allow Elementalists to access every type of magic equally? Do you limit them to one? Do you give them one for free but let them buy more? Do you give them a choice about how many elements to access but they have some other limitation if they choose more than 1?

I think no matter how you choose to answer the question of access, you're going to have some people who are disappointed. But you still have to do it - and I think if you can answer it with Elemental spells, you can probably start answering it with necromancy and other categories of spell... No matter how you choose to answer it, though, every category of spell needs attacks/defenses/utility spells. Fire may have the 'best attacks' and earth may have the 'best defenses', but fire needs defenses and earth needs attacks...
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Post by Ancient History »

If you want specialists, you need to implement it from the beginning - a la Earthdawn, where you have Wizard, Elementalist, Illusionist, and Nethermancer, and anybody else that dips into spells like Weaponsmith usually gets some flavor of the above. The thing is, Wizard/Cleric/Psion is the legacy division for D&D, and while Cleric has their "protected role" for healing and resurrection that's largely it.

Fuck it, let's do some more.

Bladesingers (Complete Warrior)
Bladesong Style (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to his class level, up to a maximum of her Intelligence bonus. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style.
Verdict: Okay. It's a level-based bonus that is specific to a given aesthetic. It's capped by the Intelligence bonus, which sort of defeats the purpose, and it would work better if it specified "bladesong weapons" instead of longsword/rapier, because there's always somebody that puts forward a bunch of new Elven weapons in a Dragon magazine article or something, so you end up in a weird situation where your uber-Elven warrior-mage can't use their special Elven weapons.
Lesser Spellsong (Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a bladesinger of 2nd level or higher can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively.
Verdict: Good. This might sound weird, but it's not actually a straight mechanical bonus, it's an expansion of an existing option, and it works at multiple levels.
Song of Celerity (Ex): Once per day, a bladesinger of 4th level or higher may quicken a single spell of up to 2nd level, as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or casting time. She may only use this ability when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other). At 8th level and higher, she can quicken a single spell of up to 4th level.
Verdict; See Quick Spell or whatever above. I feel like D&D really needed some sort of generic endurance mechanic which these various abilities could draw from, like you gain 8 fatigue or something and can use Quicken Spell without the level adjustment. Psionic characters can actually do this with power points/expending focus, but it's something that you really want to work in at the basic mechanics of the game - you don't want twelve different flavors of resources (fuck Pathfinder and its Ki points pool or whatever).
Greater Spellsong (Ex): A bladesinger of 6th level or higher ignores arcane spell failure chances when wearing light armor.
Yet another variation of Armored Mage, same general comments apply. There was a recognition that one of the gish concepts people wanted was to cast spells, hit things with a sword, and wear armor, and while D&D presented many different options to do that, they weren't at all uniform or even on the same page with regards to how to do that.
Song of Fury (Ex): When a 10th-level bladesinger makes a full attack with a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), she can make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack and each other attack made in that round take a –2 penalty. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the bladesinger might make before her next action.
Verdict: Crap. This is a nerfed, condition-laden version of two-weapon fighting, which you don't even need a feat for. This is supposed to be your ultimate ability, but by this point you're...what, 15th level?...and it' something that a 1st-level character can do by dual-wielding rapiers. Fuck that noise.

Soulbow (Complete Psionic)
Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.

The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow. For instance, a Medium soulbow materializes an arrow that speeds toward the specified target, and if it hits, deals 1d8 points of damage (crit ×3) plus extra damage equal to the soulbow's Wisdom modifer. Soulbows who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind arrows identical to arrows shot from composite longbows appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the arrow's damage (see Table 7—4 and Table 7—5 in the Player's Handbook). You gain the usual benefit to your attack roll from a high Dexterity bonus.

Whether a mind arrow hits or misses, it dissipates 1 round after being shot. A mind arrow is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage deduction. A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows.

You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable.

Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally func- tion (such as within a _null psionics field), you can attempt to attack foes with mind arrows by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you can freely produce mind arrows for a number of rounds equal to your class level before you need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, you must wait 1 round before trying again while you remain within the psionics-negating effect.
Verdict: Solid. Yes, this is a lot of fucking text, but 1) this is the key ability of this prestige class, 2) it is derivative of but expands on an existing ability, and 3) it improve with level. Maybe not to wealth-by-level guidelines, but pulling-an-arrow-out-of-your-ass is a neat trick.
Mind Arrow Enhancement (Su): At 2nd level, you can enhance your mind arrows with ranged special abilities. Choose any one of the weapon special abilities on the table below that has an enhancement bonus value of +1. From now on, mind arrows you produce as part of an attack possess that special ability.

At every four levels beyond 2nd (6th and 10th), the value of the enhancement you can add to your mind arrow improves to +2 and +3, respectively. You can choose any combination of weapon special abilities that does not exceed the total allowed by your soulbow level.
This is an expansion of an ability the Soulknife already has. In a perfect game, these wouldn't need to be separate abilities, but the way D&D handles its weapon/ammo enchantments separately...I mean, I guess if you were technically creating the bow instead of just the ammo, then the usual rules about magic bows applying enchantment to arrows would work? Dunno.
Close Combat Shot: At 4th level, you can attack with your mind arrow while in a threatened square and not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Verdict: Solid. AoO are a fairly big thing with hex-based D&D 3 combat, so while there are situations where this ability is completely useless, I think it's okay as an expansion of what the PC can do that's applicable at most levels.
Phase Arrow (Ps): At 8th level, you can take a full attack action (in lieu of your regular attacks) to expend your psionic focus and launch a mind arrow at a target known to you within range. The mind arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical or nonpsionic barrier or wall on its way. (A wall of force, wall of fire, wall of ectoplasm, or the like stops a mind arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.
Verdict: Solid. This isn't quite an unmissable attack, and there are ways that this could definitely be improved (choose the path for example, so you can shoot over/around the magical barrier), but it uses a renewable resource (psionic focus) to do something you couldn't normally do (shoot through walls). It should also, you would think, negate armor itself and basically be a ranged touch attack, but I guess you can't have everything.

Arcane Archer (DMG)

AA is a bit weird compared to its sortof-melee-counterpart Bladesinger. All the Bladesinger abilities are Extraordinary, even though some of them deal with spellcasting; all the Arcane Archer abilities are Sp or Su. You can see the difference why - the classes take two very different approaches to mixing magic and combat - but it's one of those things where you can also see how there was room for Bladesinger-like-Ex-abilities-but-for-magical-archers and Gee-I'd-like-to-throw-some-fire-on-my-sword, but those options don't get explored (in these classes). It's playspace never really utilized like it could be.
Enhance Arrow (Su)
At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).
Verdict; Good, but could be better. The nice part is, this is automatic, levels up, and requires no expenditure of any resource except arrows. If they had worded it a little better, this could stack with Mind Arrow (above) and then you'd just have an endless supply of magic arrows and uh...yeah, that would be cool. Too bad it didn't happen. Ever.

Yes, Soulbow kinda does that already, but you know what I mean: it's an option that would be awesome if more widely available than as part of a specific jump-through-hoops class. D&D3.x pigeonholed so many abilities like that half the game was trying to see how to get to the abilities you want, and the resulting character were always clunky mishmashes - the exact opposite of what prestige classes and gish classes were supposed to do.
Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.
Verdict: Excellent. This works best when you have an area spell but your arrow has a longer range, which sounds weird but isn't necessarily an impossible thing in D&D. The hard part is to get up to a level where you can cast a decent area spell to get the most out of this ability. Hell, doesn't even have to be an arcane spell. This is the kind of ability which would have made a natural expansion of the Soulbow's abilities too, which makes you wonder why they never did anything with it.
Seeker Arrow (Sp)
At 4th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target, even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow’s flight. This ability negates cover and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).
Verdict: Okay. This doesn't need to be 1/day. Full attack would do fine, since you can't exactly multishot with this ability (more's the pity). Again, combining this with Soulbow's Phase Arrow seems like something lots of superarcher characters would want: the ability to fire an arrow around corners and through solid objects is pretty much the ultimate trick shot.
Phase Arrow (Sp)
At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).
Case in point: Why didn't the Soulbow get Seeker Arrow? I think it's because they didn't want to give the Soulbow too much. Which is weird, and kind of annoying.
Hail of Arrows (Sp)
In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.
Verdict: Meh. 1/day again is shit. Limit to Arcane Archer level is shit. THis is the kind of ability where the elf is supposed to just drop down into a mob of goblins are explode like a porcupine, but it's 8th level which is character level 14 or 15 - you're not going to be dropping mobs with a single arrow attack each like Legolas, not unless you're literally fighting six or more levels beneath your CL. Also, I feel this should work better against swarms, but not the way it's worded.
Arrow of Death (Sp)
At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.
Verdict: Bad. You're at least Level 16 when this comes out, and facing commensurate enemies. Being able to make a single arrow, which takes a day, to do a DC 20 Fortitude save... and you can only have one. I mean, I get why this isn't just a special Craft Magical Item feat, but this is the kind of thing which is awesome-verging-on-broken at level 6 and with the static Fortitude save gets progressively less impressive as you get on. Granted, by the time you do this you can shoot an arrow around corners and through nonmagical walls, but you're still not killing any kind of dragon with it...and once you've blown your load that's it for the day. This is the equivalent of a class ability that gives a wizard finger of death 1/day. That's kinda weaksauce.
Last edited by Ancient History on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zaranthan »

it would work better if it specified "bladesong weapons" instead of longsword/rapier, because there's always somebody that puts forward a bunch of new Elven weapons in a Dragon magazine article or something, so you end up in a weird situation where your uber-Elven warrior-mage can't use their special Elven weapons.
I seem to recall there actually WERE stupid exotic elf swords published that said "for all intents and purposes other than proficiency, treat this weapon as a rapier."
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