A Point on Cults

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Ancient History
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A Point on Cults

Post by Ancient History »

A friend of mine made a cogent point I'd like to reiterate here:
I picked up a recent product (which shall remain nameless), and I immediately encountered one of those cults that’s apparently been playing cards in a back room somewhere while languages changed, empires fell, and major faiths arose, doing nothing but awaiting the day when someone could steal an artifact and they could come forth to slay infidels in a white-hot rage.

After so many excellent scenarios with plausible, well-written villains, some authors still see cultists as simply being fanatical murderers. It’s even sadder when you realize that these writers are only getting away with this because those cultists are people of color from Third World countries. No one would believe that crowds of people from Islington or Sheboygan would run headlong at gun-toting investigators while waving knives, but plenty of readers accept it if those people are from Africa or India. Those are the parts of Lovecraft’s legacy that we’re supposed to be ashamed of, remember?
This is perhaps most obvious in Lovecraftian gaming, but it's not exclusive to it by any means - pretty much any pulp RPG suffers from this to some extant. "Cult" is a very weird concept. It's not just dressing up in robes and waving daggers around or group sex and plural marriage - there has to be something more to it, even if it doesn't directly play into the scenario, cults don't exist in a vacuum. I remember Frank and I talking about this in Sentai Fhtagn...
AH: Well, you have different flavors. There's the straight personality cults, using the Mythos as the hook.

FT: "Our victory is predestined, join the winning team." is a pretty good one, but while the Cthonians and Yithians can make it, a lot of the other groups kinda can't.

AH: There's the libertine cults, which know that the Great Old Ones are going to eat everybody, and so basically say "Fuck human taboos" - they're the one with fingers in human crime and vice, usually really nasty shit.
Dagon Cultists and others make the pitch that if you join the cult, you're on Team Don't Eat Me.
Ghoul cults are usually degenerate human religious cults syncretized with mythos knowledge. Like Christians that take that "this is my body" thing a little too literally and oh fuck now I'm growing a muzzle.
Brokers are like the libertines, but usually more focused and practical; they'd still fuck their mother, but only if there's something it for them. They're the sorcerous underground, trading in arcanotech and grimoires.

FT: In Sentai Fhtagn, Dagon Cultists are on Team Union because of the schism between R'lyeh and Y'ha Nth-lei

AH: Yeah, I'm just throwing ideas out there. Tools are cults built around a strong outlet to something really alien, and get co-opted to their purpose. Most don't last long as the side-effects erode the personality (and sometimes biology) pretty rapidly. But occasionally they get a good personality that turns them into something useful and/or dangerous. Cultists of Yog-Sothoth that think they're bringing transcendence to humanity or whatever by opening all the gates on Earth at the same time.

FT: I like the idea of the Union Security agencies having cults taxonimied.
Like you could go into a briefing and they'd say that the target was a Type II Utopian Cult or something.

AH: Sure. Mythos-flavored gangs and all that.

FT: But Hastur also needs a pitch to get cults going.

AH: Hastur has a couple pitches.

FT: "The Yellow Sign gives authority over the weak" is pretty decent.

AH: But I think mostly they involve having a tier of servants.
Like most people only know about Hastur through his yellow-eyed zombies and a couple grimoires, but if you get a critical mass of zombies together they start organizing a hierarchy and actively generating cults.
Because Hastur, more than anything, likes to bring people to Carcosa.
At least, that's what the Hasturian superzombies say.
It could just be that humans are programmed for religion and Hastur stimulates that part of the brain.
So people under the influence of the Yellow Sign literally start having conversations with god and whatnot.

FT: That would be interesting

AH: Which also makes Hastur cults maddeningly elusive - no two are exactly alike, and they can spread and proliferate like wildfire. Or memetic warfare.

FT: The Cthonians don't so much have cults as an actual country that has multiple races of people in it.

AH: The cult is the country.
Basically, the bureaucracy is a series of initiations where you are mentally and physically molded to be better at your job and talk to Cthonians.5:33 PM
So the highest-level people in the country are barely human by most standards, but they're also practically immortal and almost as indestructible as your average Cthonian.
Albeit with a wider temperature tolerance.
It's a bit Dune-esque, but that's not a bad thing with Cthonians.

FT: Shai Hallud
...and so on and so forth. But the idea is that cults aren't just people sitting around baby-sitting artifacts and fulfilling pulp stereotypes. Not just in a version of the "real" world, but in other games too, from fantasy stuff like D&D to anything else. Cults need some sort of organization, purpose, drive, philosophy, central text, something that gives name and shape to the beliefs of people.
Last edited by Ancient History on Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The use of cults in Call of Cthulhu frequently goes over the line into offensive. But the use of cults in D&D is rarely anything other than lazy. Paizo adventure paths routinely have demon cults, but I can't actually remember any of them having any kind of theology or holidays or even a recruitment pitch.

Some of that is D&D being held back by its shitty alignment system. Presumably you'd get more interesting cults if you had to explain why and how they were bad, rather than just issuing the cultists standard issue black robes and being done with it. Although based on the level of depth vs. superficiality, I'm guessing a lot of people would develop a checklist of "bad stuff" like cannibalism and rape and check the boxes whenever they had a cult that needed face stabbing. Certainly, Shadowrun never got much deeper than racist minstrel shows when they brought in Mexican and Arab cults that were "evil." And that's in a game that had no alignment system at all. Admittedly, they went a little deeper with their white people secretly evil self empowerment cults, but the Azteca blood mages and the Islamic horror worshipers were pretty much just "bad."

Still, the very plausibility of such "villainous stuff checklists" makes this all the more puzzling. You build bridges all your life, but you fuck one sheep and people stop calling you Bob the Bridge Builder. A cult could go all Wickerman on things and the rest of it could be all bees and Nicholas Cage. A cult doesn't need more than a couple hideous truths about it for the players to agree it needs to be shut down. The Koresh like leader could be Koreshing on the daughters of the cult members, and the rest of the cult's deal could be pretty much anything at all.

It's just plain disappointing that villainous religious groups have so little to say about themselves in RPGs.

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Post by crasskris »

Isn't that stereotype based on stories of european explorers encountering tribes of local natives and then being decimated because the 'savages' have no appreciation for how much more fetching the main artifact of their religion would look on the shelf of a London museum?

Because in that case the problem is usually the same that you encounter at game tables: Players see a cult(ure) from the outside, see the pretty bling they hoard, and make of with it, barely interacting beyond the point of 'we have to placate these weirdos long enough to get the loot'.

I don't know how prevalent that problem is in Lovecraftian or pulp play, but in fantasy I could see writers being jaded enough by such player behaviour to not bother with extensive write-ups of cult backgrounds no more. They might figure that in groups that give a fuck, MCs are mentally agile enough to cover the holes.
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Post by silva »

For well made cults, take a look at Glorantha/Runequest.
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Post by Prak »

Er, sort of, Silva.

Gloranthan cults give the cult's magical associations (the runes they care about and spells they get from their god), who the typical worshippers are, and, most importantly, the worshipper duties. They also have multiple levels of membership with various benefits and requirements, but requirements for rising in the cult are abstracted to "Have five cult skills at X%, pay for the relevant character ability, Tithe Y amount" so they don't actually enforce the fluff of the cult there.

So, sure, they tell you what the religious people do with their free time- Argan Argar's worshippers spend their time being traders between humans and trolls and not casting light spells. Babeester Gor worshippers spend their time guarding temples and cutting rapists' nuts off and basically being over the top first wave feminism strawmen.

However, these aren't cults, at least not in the modern definition. They're closer to being mystery cults, but really it's just henotheistic worship strains.
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Post by silva »

Prak wrote:but requirements for rising in the cult are abstracted to "Have five cult skills at X%, pay for the relevant character ability, Tithe Y amount" so they don't actually enforce the fluff of the cult there.
I fear youre mistaken here, Prak. Each cult has its parcel of fluff to be strictly followed by the cultsts. From light/aesthetical requirements (like the fake beards Lhankhor Mhy women must worn :mrgreen: ), to serious behaviour requirements (like Storm Bull worshippers adhering to scorched earth policy agains chaos - even when there are innocents involved), etc. Here, one example from Cult Compendium (emphasis mine):
CULT OF HUMAKT wrote:

Lay Membership

A. Requirements to Join
Humakt welcomes all races as long as they are
warriors and will swear to keep discipline and
uphold the Humakt Code of fair play and honor
.
Few creatures of Chaos can maintain this discipline
for any length of time, so there are few Broo,
Scorpion Man, or Ogre members. He must swear
to follow the commands of the god as expressed
by the priests of the cult, and must observe the cult
holy days and lead occasional minor services.

B. Requirements to Belong
Lay Members are expected to tithe ten percent of
their current silver every cult holy day (many use
this as an excuse to go on sprees just before the
holy day), and give up the usual point of Power
when they worship.
Every Lay Member must meet certain
minimal requirements. They must uphold the
Code of Humakt. This includes requirements
that a member must (1) always fight other
Humakt members fairly, (2) honor the fallen, and
(3) maintain strict truth and confidence with one
another. Combat between members may
continue only to the first fallen, not to the death,
and the loser must surrender a prize to the victor.
This prize absolves each of any further
obligations to the other, save in the usual course
of cult functions.

Humakt temples also act as hiring halls for
mercenaries and adventuring bands.

Initiate Membership

A. Requirements for Initiation
Lay Members who have shown true dedication to
the ideal and cult of Humakt may be invited to
become Initiates of the cult. A candidate for
initiation must take the step with full realization
that a later refutation of his pledge will involve
reprisals from the cult spirits.
An Initiate must have a sponsor who is already
an Initiate and a battle comrade of the candidate.
He must also pass a test which is abstracted for
the game by roiling on D100 the formula CHA x 5
+ % to hit with Sword, divided by 2.

B. Further Requirements
Once accepted into the cult of Humakt, the Initiate
must take a Humakt gift and accept a Humakt
geas
. Up to three gifts may be taken at this time,
but the requisite number of geases must also be
taken. If more than three are taken, then twice as
many noted geases must be taken. A Rune Priest
will explain that both gifts and geases will help
the recipient become a better Humakti.
An initiate (often called a “Sword brother/
sister”) must also sacrifice two points of POW
every holy day and enforce the cult likes and
dislikes more stringently than a Lay Member. They
often are in demand as bodyguards.

Rune Lord Membership

C. Restrictions
There are very few restrictions on a Humakt Sword
not already detailed. He must personify honor and
fair combat in his every deed, upholding the meek
and protecting the oppressed. He must never turn
his back on a fair fight or a good cause and never
break a sworn vow.
Any Sword betraying these
restrictions will never be able to pick up a sword
again without it shattering in his hand.
Last edited by silva on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Prak »

Meanwhile, in MRQ
Humakt
God of Death and Severance
Humakt is the god of Death, Severance and Oaths. He
was a child of Umath and spent his early days honing his
skills as a warrior. During the Storm Age, he discovered
the power of Death. When he saw what it was capable of
he swore to use it wisely but the trickster Eurmal stole
this power and soon it was spread from god to god, who
used it indiscriminately. Soon, everything began to die.
Humakt renounced his kin and set out to recover the lost
power. He used it to separate the living from the dead
and with each victory regained more of Death to himself.
Even the greatest gods fell to his sword, until only Orlanth
remained. Humakt sent Orlanth to the Underworld where
he completed the Lightbringer’s Quest.
Humakt is Orlanth’s warmaster, and demands from his
followers a devotion to truth and an absolute willingness
to die. His worshippers are often warlords and generals
but seldom become kings or chieftains. His worshippers
have the grim tasks of accepting the finality of death,
defeating undead and upholding truth and honour.
Humakt is usually depicted as a sword though some
cults prefer to portray him as an armoured (but swordwielding)
warrior. His temples often serve as mercenary
hiring halls and many mercenary groups support their
own shrine or temple. His shrines teach True (Sword).
Note: Humakt is also worshipped among the Carmanians
but the cult there has significant differences from the
version depicted here in that it does not acknowledge
Orlanth nor does it dwell particularly on Humakt’s
honourable nature, being instead a god of death and
warfare.

Runes: Death, Truth.

Type: Death, War.

Pantheon: Orlanth, Carmanian.

Worshippers: Mercenaries, warriors, haunted
wanderers.

Worshipper Duties: Accepting the finality of death,
defeating undead, upholding truth and honour.

Initiate Membership
Requirements: Standard.
Special Notes: Initiates may not be brought back from
the dead by any means. Their bodies cannot be turned
into undead. Once accepted into the cult, the initiate must
take a Humakt gift and accept a Humakt geas. Only one
gift may be taken at this time. Initiates are forbidden to
learn Dullblade.

Cult Skills: Athletics, Craft (Weaponsmith), Dagger,
Dodge, First Aid, Lore (Humakt Theology), Perception,
Riding, 1H/2H Sword, Shield.

Cult Spells: Bladesharp, Detect Enemy, Endurance, Oath
of Ordeal, Hand Of Death, Undead Bane.

Common Divine Magic: All.

Special Divine Magic: Turn Undead.

Sword (Runelord) Membership
Requirements: Candidate must have 90% or more in
1H/2H Sword and have four more other skills at 90% or
more from among the following: any other Weapon skill,
Craft (Weaponsmith), Dodge, Perception, Riding
Divine Magic: Morale.

Special Note: When checking for Divine Intervention,
Swords roll 1D10 rather than 1D100. Swords serve the
cult as priests. A new Sword must take one more gift and
its attendant geas upon himself. He may take as many
gifts and their geases as he desires.

Special Benefits
Initiates gain a +5% bonus with 1H/2H Sword as well as
a gift and its requisite geas. Acolytes gain an additional
gift and geas as well as a +10% on 1H/2H Sword against
undead. Runelords gain a +20% parry bonus against
undead.
Any game will have variations based on edition. Some will be slightly better than others in these things, but even your cherry picked example just says "Humakt 'cultists' act the part of the stereotypical knight." And again, those aren't cults.
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Post by silva »

Prak, your own quote has behavioural requirements (emphasis mine):
Prak wrote: ...
Humakt is Orlanth’s warmaster, and demands from his
followers a devotion to truth and an absolute willingness
to die
. His worshippers are often warlords and generals
but seldom become kings or chieftains. His worshippers
have the grim tasks of accepting the finality of death,
defeating undead and upholding truth and honour
.
...
See now ? Its there, even if simplified.

Now, about Glorantha not being cults in the way Ancient History intended in the OP, well, it may be. Perhaps he intended to use the word on a context of horror stories, where here Im using it in the context of religion and mystery cults. If thats the case, I apologize.
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Post by Prak »

Why do I even try?
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Post by erik »

Prak wrote:Why do I even try?
I couldn't say. Politely anyway.

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Post by silva »

Huehuehhehhuahue
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Post by Ancient History »

When you're talking about cults, you're looking at a couple of related concepts.

At first, you have a (usually small) religious sect that is distinguished by exclusion, secretiveness, or stigmatization - the Church of Latter Day Saints, for example, was originally ostracized by its neighbors for its beliefs, and has an internal process of initiation (more or less) that outsiders are excluded from until inducted. Which is, of course, why no less a personage than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used them as punch-card assassins.

Even then, there's a wide spectrum of organization and structures for those kind of religious groups, from the official and artificial imperial cults of the Roman Empire that made offerings to fallen emperors raised to deity-status to the underground Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths that endured centuries of prosecution and mutation in China and Japan; from cults of personality led by a single charismatic prophet-like figure to the decadent remnants of once-dominant religions, reduced by time and waning influence to a handful of congregants and priests.

There are also the secular cults - which are similar to the religious groups, just minus the actual religion, instead having a guiding philosophy, text, or other belief - like the Freemasons, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, or Theosophy; or even moreso like any of their more obscure and less-celebrated and more ostracized spin-offs and unsuccessful by-blows, like Co-Freemasonry, the Order of the Pug, and the A.A.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I think the major mistake most authors use when using a cult as a villain is trying to create a history that stretches to pre-history. Usually, that's not really necessary. Sometimes it works (Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword), but often it doesn't. Using another Indiana Jones example, from Temple of Doom, he was interested in whether there was a resurgence of Thuggee cult - it was implied that the people involved were recreating rituals (a new version of an older cult).

In the case of demons, it's very possible to have a series of similar cults throughout history - perhaps each one is founded by the same demon possessing a body until the cult is found and defeated. A new cult popping-up and causing problems could be easily explained and the PCs could learn not only how to defeat this incarnation of the cult, but also to prevent this demon from forming a new one in the future.

For new cults, it can be tempting to give the cult more power than really makes sense. A secret society can't really recruit too quickly - they need to vet potential recruits before revealing any of their secrets. Having a powerful political figure might make the cult more powerful than if it's composed entirely of bakers and candlestick makers...

As far as inducement - there are enough real world cults that inspiration shouldn't be a problem. A Sacred Duty, a temporal reward, a future reward, immediate power over individuals - there are people that will find these types of things appealing. Having rules that make these things function is a little harder.

I've heard it suggested (probably by Frank & K) that aristocracy should be able to give 'virtual levels' to their retainers, a reason that people would serve kings and support a feudal society. Having a similar mechanic for cultists could also make sense - +2 Levels is 'real measurable power' and if cults can offer that to members, that could be all the incentive needed to justify their existence.
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Post by Lurky Lurkpants »

FrankTrollman wrote:But the use of cults in D&D is rarely anything other than lazy. Paizo adventure paths routinely have demon cults, but I can't actually remember any of them having any kind of theology or holidays or even a recruitment pitch.
Funnily enough, each AP has two deity articles by mandate. They ran out of proper deities a while ago and have had to run lesser ones since, including various sorts whose organized religions count as "cults."

Unfortunately they never escaped the trap, even with six pages on a single one. I know Deskari worshipers like the first day of spring and Szuriel's followers celebrate eclipses, but neither has anything resembling a coherent theology or sales pitch. The beings are aloof, harsh, and generally unpleasant with lots of abomination and little reason to partake. I mean, I know Deskari cults sometimes pose as Calistria lust cults, but I have no idea why you would bother with that. Calistria's afterlife is way better, nobody is going to eat your soul and you get to sleep with (or be) a sexy elf with insect wings instead of a literal giant insect.

I can't explain what causes it. It may be laziness or a Book of Exalted Deeds style "the more evil opposition the more good the protagonists!" thing. However my gut feeling is some degree of Pulling-era fueled puritanism, especially since Pathfinder pulled back on the incestuous cannibalism and such after they started making it on their own, but I really can't prove tat.
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Post by Ancient History »

I think it's probably an even mix between ignorance, laziness, and especially in the case of any sort of "foreign" cult, ignorance.

One of the issues Western civilization has is that by and large the enormous popularity and influence of Christianity means that people have very warped ideas about other religions - including, and not limited to, the actual beliefs of different sorts of Christians or groups that identify as Christian. It's a testament to making the bad guy in your image, for example, that the Inquisition found evidence of witches participating in massive orgies, cannibalism, heresy, the defamation of sacraments, working against the established authorities, parodying Christian rites, etc. and basically all the other shit that the Inquisition and the Pope specifically prescribed and was afraid of. And later on, Margaret Murray, in trying to drum up evidence for her pagan survival in the same records, "read in" remnants of pagan worship. It's ignorant bullshit all the way down.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Well, murderous brown heathens are still a beloved part of Hollywood storytelling:
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and the guy who directed this thinks of himself as a moral authority too

---

If you want a good source for cults though look at the Bible. You have cultists that are actively undermining the local religions because for whatever reason they do not tolerate worship of any lord but their own, and do stuff like summon spirits to kill all the firstborn and blot out the sun.

Modern day you have cults being funded by overseas empires. Right now in the mountains of northern Thailand there are christians who tell mountain folk that don't have internet that everyone in the US worships Jesus and that the Statue of Liberty is Jesus, and everyone else is going to hell so you better become christian to be more like the American celebrities you see on TV.

In the post WW2 environment some of my family members have stories of how the christians came in to distribute food but told them they had to smash their ancestral altars first, then explained that everyone who doesn't is going to burn in hell forever. So cultists doing charity work on the condition that you hand your soul over is a very solid motivation. Say in the aftermath of the orc invasion these guys come in from another country to cure light wounds and remove disease to any poor folk that swears fealty to their new master and builds a shrine to them (while smashing the old ones). So you can do some dramatic storytelling of how the Paladin comes home from the demon war to find he is no longer welcome and a foreign cleric is now running things.

"Hey I know you lost your home, now join my cult" is also how the first story arc of Romance of the Three Kingdoms starts off. You have the Yellow Durag religion spring up with Taoist roots where the leader claims to be a magically empowered prophet. He gains control of various towns with the ultimate goal of becoming the new Emperor of the world.

You have a similar event happen during the Qing dynasty with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion where a guy claims to be the younger brother of Jesus and amasses an army, leading to war and famine. Mao Zedong admired that guy as a hero so you could say the communist revolution and resultant great leap forward where everyone dresses like the pig from Dragon Ball and beats their parents a suitably cultish activity.

Cults, like bacteria and viruses, spread best when their host is weak.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Prak »

Oh. Silva distracted me by mentioning Shitantha, but the quoted FT/AH exchange makes me want to start a cult in the game I'm playing in, but not really do much more than get people to worship my genderqueer goblin and hand out standard issue black robes, so that the most evil part of my cult is that I'm trying to get into a horned devil's proverbial pants. And taking advantage of an already planned tournament where 450+ kids will fight to the death, but that's just opportunism.
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Post by Orion »

What do people think of this write-up.

Secret societies are secret either because society has something against them, they have something against society, or both. Every society either needs a compelling reason to join up despite the secrecy, or a compelling reason to cling to an identity that has been forced underground. These hooks can be broken down into a few categories.

Persecuted Cults
  • Skill. The cult teaches some kind of skill that mainstream society wants to suppress. Cults can also organize around factual knowledge, but only if mainstream society is motivated to suppress it and the members find it advantageous to learn it.
  • Substance. The cult is able to procure or create illegal goods or materials.
  • Favor. The cult promises members that they will get special treatment from powerful creatures (or peope) who are considered enemies by mainstream society.
  • Lax morality. The cult teaches a moral philosophy which permits harmless behaviors which the mainstream finds unacceptable.
  • The cult is the underground remnant of a previously-public group which is now unpopular.
Aggressor Cults.[*]Skill. The cult teaches some kind of skill. In order to gain an advantage over mainstream society, they don't share the skill, and may even conceal the existence of that skill.[*]Favor. The cult seeks favor from patrons who demand that they perform anti-social actions.[*]Lax morality. The cult teaches a moral philosophy which permits criminal and/or anti-social behavior. Members conceal their affiliation to avoid casting suspicion on their behavior.[*]Stringent morality. The cult teaches a moral philosophy which holds behaviors common in mainstream society to be unacceptable. Members conceal their affiliation so that they can engage in sedition and terrorism.[*]Bigotry. The members of the cult just hate everybody else for some stupid reason, and conceal their affiliation so they can engage in sedition and terrorism.[/list][/list]
Last edited by Orion on Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Smirnoffico
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Shouldn't agressor cults include cults determined to overthrowing the current regime/dominant church/whatever? It's not exactly morality or favor issue, it's more of a promise of power (not 'join us and learn magic' but 'join us and rule over a country')
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun »

There would seem to be a relatively fine line between 'cults', as Orion describes them above, and interest groups. What about a cult that forms merely to accomplish a common goal? We generally don't use that word in such a context, but an argument can be made that it's an artificial and arbitrary distinction. In many cases, the specialized secret knowledge which the cult passes on wasn't an originating feature of the group, but developed as a way of strengthening group identity.

What precisely distinguishes a fraternal organization from a cult? Particularly if they have special rituals and offer practical advantages to its members, either through connections or resources made available?
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Post by Orion »

Smirnoffico wrote:Shouldn't agressor cults include cults determined to overthrowing the current regime/dominant church/whatever? It's not exactly morality or favor issue, it's more of a promise of power (not 'join us and learn magic' but 'join us and rule over a country')
I feel that this is covered by the categories I already laid out.

Favor: When we kill the elf king and replace him with the demon prince, our dark lord will reward us.
Lax morality: We do not recognize any moral law that would forbid us from killing the king and swimming in his gold.
Strict morality: The king allows dogs and cats to live together under one roof. He must be killed.
Bigotry: The king is a Flemm. We must kill him and replace him with a Walloon.
Skill: As long as the king's armies hunt for necromancers, we will never be safe. We must kill the king and replace him with a pro-necromancy ruler.
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Post by kzt »

Prak wrote: Any game will have variations based on edition. Some will be slightly better than others in these things, but even your cherry picked example just says "Humakt 'cultists' act the part of the stereotypical knight." And again, those aren't cults.
The answer I got from Greg Stafford was that the actual requirements of Humakt (to gain any benefit from worship) was that you had to be willing to kill and you had to be willing to die. EVERYTHING else was cultural.
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Post by Prak »

Sounds about right. Humakt was a death cult when I played, not "The illustrious church of paladins"
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Smirnoffico
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Orion wrote:
Smirnoffico wrote:Shouldn't agressor cults include cults determined to overthrowing the current regime/dominant church/whatever? It's not exactly morality or favor issue, it's more of a promise of power (not 'join us and learn magic' but 'join us and rule over a country')
I feel that this is covered by the categories I already laid out.
Yeah, my bad. I misplaced means and ends. Displacing the government is a mean to an end.
What i wanted to ask is what category purely economic ends fall into? Like 'we want to depose the king to get all the munchies'. it's not favor, as there can be no dark lord to grant cultists the favor at all.

When i was crafting cults for my games (which was mostly WH40K games), I asked myself six questions about the cult: 'what does it want?' 'why it is secret?' 'how they attract followers?' 'who backs them up?' 'how they are going to meet their ends?' and 'why they are a threat/opposition to the characters?'
Promise of wealth and power can be a really good selling point to attract loyal followers. Sometimes it's just a promise 'we promise power because when our dark lords conquer the world, they'll grant us fiefdoms', but it can be straight offer - we offer power and money because we are going to seize them.
Last edited by Smirnoffico on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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silva
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Post by silva »

kzt wrote:
Prak wrote: Any game will have variations based on edition. Some will be slightly better than others in these things, but even your cherry picked example just says "Humakt 'cultists' act the part of the stereotypical knight." And again, those aren't cults.
The answer I got from Greg Stafford was that the actual requirements of Humakt (to gain any benefit from worship) was that you had to be willing to kill and you had to be willing to die. EVERYTHING else was cultural.
A compromise with the truth is also important. Aka: the initiate can't lie even if its in his best interests to do so. (Truth and Death are the gods runes)

Oh, they also have a thing with oaths. The King of Dragon Pass videogame has a blessing that allows your clan to form alliances even with hostile clans based on this.
Last edited by silva on Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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