What archetypes does 5E not represent well?

[RobbyPants]

So, I've gathered that if you want to win 5E, you want to control minions. Necromancers and clerics kick ass at that, and I've heard some buzz about valor bards.

That being said, what types of archetypes that you might expect to want to play in D&D are not represented well by the 5E rules? I'm not using the minion-masters mentioned above as my balance point, but what types of characters cannot even stand up to level-appropriate foes?

I know some concepts that did not get much love in 3E include sword-and-board, monks, and swashbucklers.

[RobbyPants]

Shit. I thought I was in IMHO. I guess I should get this moved.

[codeGlaze]

>_>

Bump. I'm interested in thoughts on this. Despite everyone hating it, the crew here still manages to have some phenomenal insight.

[spongeknight]

Well, the obvious answer is "any kind of fighter who can beat a bunch of archers," though I assume you want more specific answers than that.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Is throwing evocations around still not a valid life choice? I don't own 5e books so I can't answer this.

[Niles]

Is throwing evocations around still not a valid life choice? I don't own 5e books so I can't answer this.

Bullshit small hordes of tiny men will autowin against anything that can't take out a big chunk of them per turn,; so they've at least got a vital niche (until the MC starts having them use proper spacing).

[Dean]

That would be....a long list. 5E is a low fantasy ruleset that pretends it's usable for high fantasy. Imagine if the actual Conan RPG somehow convinced people to make superhero's and run them with that system, that's what 5E is like. Where you can make a Superman or a Wonder Woman and they can look right but if anyone shoots at them they'll just die, so it's not quite the same. Any concept that involves someone becoming equal in power to the better Fellowship members has to be discarded, because ANYONE will get Boromir'd if they try to take on a gang of orcs.

The second thing to remember is that 5E isn't making new books. There is no content coming down the pipe. The classes in the core rulebook are basically all the classes ever. This makes listing the concepts not covered well by 5E really easy, it's any class that 5E doesn't have (and thus probably will never make) along with any it already does badly. So a partial list of things that 5E doesn't represents includes

Rogue's
Monks/Martial Artists
Playable Monsters
Ninja's
Alchemists
Cavaliers
Dragon Knight/any cool pet having class
Psions
Swashbucklers
Demonologists
Arcane and Divine dabbler
Archmage
Seige Engineer/Trap Maker/Craft Master
Sword Saint/Warblade
Marshal
Truenamer
Runepriest

Just y'know....lots and lots. Basically spend 30 seconds thinking up any concept outside of the 3.E PHB and odds are you can't cover it. Between a lack of power and a lack of content 5E puts you in a pretty bad place.

[Username17]

Is throwing evocations around still not a valid life choice? I don't own 5e books so I can't answer this.

You only get one spell per level of your higher level spells, and spells don't scale to your level. So any plan that involves casting spellss in a combat is on shaky ice to begin with. Any spell whose effect isn't a buff or an "I Win" button is probably going to be grossly underpowered in a few levels and isn't going to become noticeably less scarce.

There are a few evocations that are worth packing just because squads of mooks remain a threat at all levels, but being an Evoker is even less valid of a lifechoice than it is in 3e.

-Username17

[Grek]

Dean is, of course, full of shit. Rogues, Monks, Ninjas, Cavaliers, Demonologists, Dabblers and Marshals have all already been covered. No edition has ever done playable monsters, Psions, Swashbucklers, Trap Masters or Truenamers well. Archmage and Dragon Knight should not be classes. That leaves what? Runepriest and Sword Saint?

[Stubbazubba]

They made Swashbuckler specialty for Rogues in the last UA. I don't know if it's any good, though. I mean, I know who made it and for what game, so I know it's not good, but I haven't really examined it to tell how relatively good it is, either. Mostly I know that GitP threw a fit because it now has the only non-magical WoW aggro effect in the game, where the enemy can't attack anyone but the Swashbuckler if it fails the save.

[maglag]

So, I've gathered that if you want to win 5E, you want to control minions. Necromancers and clerics kick ass at that, and I've heard some buzz about valor bards.

That being said, what types of archetypes that you might expect to want to play in D&D are not represented well by the 5E rules? I'm not using the minion-masters mentioned above as my balance point, but what types of characters cannot even stand up to level-appropriate foes?

I know some concepts that did not get much love in 3E include sword-and-board, monks, and swashbucklers.

Sword-and-board is nice and simple in 5e, as a single feat with no prerequisites (Shield Master) allows you to shove enemies with the shield as a bonus action, add your shield bonus to Dex saves, and also grants you pseudo-evasion.

Monks get to use Dex by default for melee and can always make one extra unarmed strike when attacking with an unarmed strike or monk weapon. Their other abilities have also been mostly buffed, with stuff like flurry of blows being able to push, trip and prevent enemy from taking reactions (yes, all three simultaneously) and quivering palm gets more uses, can be activated whenever you hit with an unarmed strike, and deals 10d10 damage even if the target saves.

Shadow Arts monk is basically a ninja, able to cast some sneaky spells, at-will short-range teleport from shadow/dim light to shadow/dim light as a bonus action, become invisible in shadows/dim light, although you need to trade some of the "classic" monk abilities for it like quivering palm.

Monk of the four elements is not-Avatar-the-last-airbender, allowing you to cast elemental spells and even some effects that aren't available to normal mages.

Swashbucklers are a new rogue option, but even without it, you can use dex for melee with light weapons by default, TWF is a lot easier (viable by default, and a single feat will improve it considerably), and there's more feats to support it like Mobile (+10 feet movement, ignore difficult terrain while dashing, enemies you melee can't make Aoos against you even if you miss). A rogue/fighter with maneuvers would cover the swashbuckler niche pretty nicely.

I also mentioned it in the other thread, but multiclassing is a lot more friendly in 5e, even when mixing casters and martials, so that also helps cover more archetypes.

[ishy]

Dean is, of course, full of shit. Rogues, Monks, Ninjas, Cavaliers, Demonologists, Dabblers and Marshals have all already been covered. No edition has ever done playable monsters, Psions, Swashbucklers, Trap Masters or Truenamers well.

I know lists immediately draw your attention and you focus on that, but you should read the words in front of lists too. Sometimes they contain useful information. In this case:

This makes listing the concepts not covered well by 5E really easy, it's any class that 5E doesn't have (and thus probably will never make) along with any it already does badly.

Also claiming failures don't matter because previous editions did not succeed is fucking stupid.

[Grek]

You don't get to argue that 5e is worse than 3.5e because 5e fails at things that 3.5e failed at. That's fucking stupid. As for the rest, I would contend that 5e does not, in fact, do those badly. Go on, pick out whichever you think 5e does the worst. I'll explain (in small words, even) how to actually play one and not suck ass.

[tussock]

@Grek, playable monsters appear in Basic in the Gaz* and PC* series, in 2nd edition with the CBo Humanoids, and in Pathfinder where they all work well enough. 3e's Psions and Psiwars are entirely functional in a caster party, if rather boring, but still better than 3e's Warlocks. Trapspringing is a standard function at high level in AD&D and any level in 2nd edition (if you find the hidden rules that let you set traps).

But really, what 5e lacks is any concept of heroes who are better than the town guard. Pathfinder's Golarion has this high-level set piece where the hellmouth is already open and you can go play there once you're up to it, but in 5e there is "bounded accuracy" so you just leave it to the local militia because they're always better than you.


Like, actual medieval ship battles had hundreds of people making boarding actions at once, including armoured knights crossing on horseback and forming up to charge down the line of contacting enemy ships. Not to mention the scores of archers firing from cover-providing towers to soften up any resistance. The 5e swashbuckler imagines some Errol Flynn movie with four guys on set running up rope ladders, and does that passably if everyone lets it, but like everything a relatively small number of ordinary crewmen show up and all the heroes just die.

D&D to 3.5 and Pathfinder since have heroes that kick ass on anything and everything and who the world desperately needs to solve otherwise catastrophic calamities. At least from mid levels. Lower level in 4e, their mooks are extremely in need of assistance. But 5e never gets there at all, every high level concept is gone.


Well, other than possessing the body of a monster that's immune to low-level bullshit, while also producing a bunch of low-level bullshit of your own. So one thing.

[Grek]

Regular non-gaming people fucking love fantasy stories full of elves and winged horses and shit like that. Harry Potter sold a lot of fucking books and those people would all totally play a Wizard who slowly gains power through adventure against horrible things in dark tunnels, while trying to find better spells! Only D&D could give them a setting that was less pointlessly oppressive, you weren't surrounded by better Wizards all day, and where you could go left instead of right if you wanted, and also play a sort of sparkly vampire (by another name) if need be.

But really, what 5e lacks is any concept of heroes who are better than the town guard. Pathfinder's Golarion has this high-level set piece where the hellmouth is already open and you can go play there once you're up to it, but in 5e there is "bounded accuracy" so you just leave it to the local militia because they're always better than you.

Which do you fucking want? For high level wizards to be able to shit on low level wizards, or for them to not be able to do that? You get to pick one, you can't make it so that the PCs are special little snowflakes who alone get to ignore the game's rules and do whatever they want. So pick:
A] The actions of low level characters matter to high level characters.
or
B] Your character is always overshadowed by someone better.

[Axebird]

Relative level difference matters. It's entirely reasonable to want a group of 5th level characters to have a shot against a 9th level one, but not want a squad of 1st level archers to shit all over a 20th level character.

[maglag]

Like, actual medieval ship battles had hundreds of people making boarding actions at once, including armoured knights crossing on horseback and forming up to charge down the line of contacting enemy ships. Not to mention the scores of archers firing from cover-providing towers to soften up any resistance. The 5e swashbuckler imagines some Errol Flynn movie with four guys on set running up rope ladders, and does that passably if everyone lets it, but like everything a relatively small number of ordinary crewmen show up and all the heroes just die.

Can we please stop with this bullshit?

In 5e at 4th level grab Heavy Armor Master. You now have DR/3 against the puny militia's attacks (MM commoner deals 1d4 for average 2 damage), plus +1 Str thrown in for free. Considering that the enemies still need to roll to hit, you can easily slaughter your average village and just take some scratches in return. In 3.5e the closest you could get is the barbarian at level 13 with DR 3.

Your average militia will have a much easier time slaughtering the party's martial dudes in 3e and PF, because martials in 3e and PF have no way at low levels to grab DR at all, and AC is harder to come by.

[Echoes]

Like, actual medieval ship battles had hundreds of people making boarding actions at once, including armoured knights crossing on horseback and forming up to charge down the line of contacting enemy ships. Not to mention the scores of archers firing from cover-providing towers to soften up any resistance. The 5e swashbuckler imagines some Errol Flynn movie with four guys on set running up rope ladders, and does that passably if everyone lets it, but like everything a relatively small number of ordinary crewmen show up and all the heroes just die.

Can we please stop with this bullshit?

In 5e at 4th level grab Heavy Armor Master. You now have DR/3 against the puny militia's attacks (MM commoner deals 1d4 for average 2 damage), plus +1 Str thrown in for free. Considering that the enemies still need to roll to hit, you can easily slaughter your average village and just take some scratches in return. In 3.5e the closest you could get is the barbarian at level 13 with DR 3.

Your average militia will have a much easier time slaughtering the party's martial dudes in 3e and PF, because martials in 3e and PF have no way at low levels to grab DR at all, and AC is harder to come by.

Yes, let's stop with the bullshit. How about you go first?

Pathfinder: Invulnerable Rager Barbarians get DR/- equal to half their level starting at level 2. I'm sure there's more bullshit feats and such to stack onto that. That's literally 30 seconds of looking at the Pathfinder SRD, since I have only ever played casters in Pathfinder (but partied with said Barbarian multiple times).

3.5: Warforged with Adamantine Body get DR 3/adamantine at level 1. Any Martial Adept can pick up Stone Bones to give themselves DR 5/adamantine for 1 round. Warblades can have 50% uptime on that all day every day if they want it. Crusaders can grab Martial Spirit stance, Stone Bones, and Crusader's Strike to keep themselves going against basically unlimited numbers of low-level dudes. I've actually seen the level 1 Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body in a party. It stomps all over level 1 threats that aren't packing color spray. It does this all day long, without needing to stop and rest. Between the DR and the healing, no amount of goblins will kill you before you kill them. The power level tapers off really fast because none of that shit scales at all, but at level 1 it's super-effective against basically everything you will ever fight at that level.

I'm not saying that these are good things to do with your time, but it is certainly possible to get equivalent/superior amounts of DR/sustain in Pathfinder and 3.5.

[RobbyPants]

A similar question to the OP:

Forgetting minion-mancy, what classes/archetypes seem to be able to punch at their expected weight class? I'm not talking about the classes that can keep up with minion-mancers, but what ones can contribute to a fight against level-appropriate fights?

What classes/archetypes cannot compete against level-appropriate, non-minion fights?

[Dean]

Dean is, of course, full of shit. Rogues, Monks, Ninjas, Cavaliers, Demonologists, Dabblers and Marshals have all already been covered. No edition has ever done playable monsters, Psions, Swashbucklers, Trap Masters or Truenamers well. Archmage and Dragon Knight should not be classes. That leaves what? Runepriest and Sword Saint?

This is such a weirdly dishonest series of statements. First of all, as Ishy says, the question is what it does "well" so Rogues or Monks being weak as fuck means that doesn't pass, Binding is shit, etc etc. Then you try to pretend that you not liking Psionics presentation in 3E, MM, Hero, Gurps, or a million other systems somehow means 5E having literally no content whatsoever makes it equal which is absurd, then you say some other things just shouldn't be classes even if they're fantasy staples such as "owning a cool mount like a Griffon or Dragon" which 5E can't do. It would be a more effective counterargument to write lalalalalalalalalalalala and tell me you're not listening

You don't get to argue that 5e is worse than 3.5e because 5e fails at things that 3.5e failed at. That's fucking stupid. As for the rest, I would contend that 5e does not, in fact, do those badly. Go on, pick out whichever you think 5e does the worst. I'll explain (in small words, even) how to actually play one and not suck ass.

The argument isn't related to 3E, it's just that 5E sucks. If you want I can talk about how 5E sucks and 3E doesn't overall but this is just about how 5E definitely sucks. I'll take your challenge and would love to see you use small words to explain to me how a nonmagical Marshal, a Swashbuckler, and a Ninja are actually powerful well-done concepts in 5E. I would be happy to see those builds.

[maglag]

Like, actual medieval ship battles had hundreds of people making boarding actions at once, including armoured knights crossing on horseback and forming up to charge down the line of contacting enemy ships. Not to mention the scores of archers firing from cover-providing towers to soften up any resistance. The 5e swashbuckler imagines some Errol Flynn movie with four guys on set running up rope ladders, and does that passably if everyone lets it, but like everything a relatively small number of ordinary crewmen show up and all the heroes just die.

Can we please stop with this bullshit?

In 5e at 4th level grab Heavy Armor Master. You now have DR/3 against the puny militia's attacks (MM commoner deals 1d4 for average 2 damage), plus +1 Str thrown in for free. Considering that the enemies still need to roll to hit, you can easily slaughter your average village and just take some scratches in return. In 3.5e the closest you could get is the barbarian at level 13 with DR 3.

Your average militia will have a much easier time slaughtering the party's martial dudes in 3e and PF, because martials in 3e and PF have no way at low levels to grab DR at all, and AC is harder to come by.

Yes, let's stop with the bullshit. How about you go first?

Pathfinder: Invulnerable Rager Barbarians get DR/- equal to half their level starting at level 2. I'm sure there's more bullshit feats and such to stack onto that. That's literally 30 seconds of looking at the Pathfinder SRD, since I have only ever played casters in Pathfinder (but partied with said Barbarian multiple times).

3.5: Warforged with Adamantine Body get DR 3/adamantine at level 1. Any Martial Adept can pick up Stone Bones to give themselves DR 5/adamantine for 1 round. Warblades can have 50% uptime on that all day every day if they want it. Crusaders can grab Martial Spirit stance, Stone Bones, and Crusader's Strike to keep themselves going against basically unlimited numbers of low-level dudes. I've actually seen the level 1 Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body in a party. It stomps all over level 1 threats that aren't packing color spray. It does this all day long, without needing to stop and rest. Between the DR and the healing, no amount of goblins will kill you before you kill them. The power level tapers off really fast because none of that shit scales at all, but at level 1 it's super-effective against basically everything you will ever fight at that level.

I'm not saying that these are good things to do with your time, but it is certainly possible to get equivalent/superior amounts of DR/sustain in Pathfinder and 3.5.

Ok, you can pick DR at low levels in 3.5 if you're willing to play the robot splatbook race and spend a feat anyway, or if you pick one of two pseudo-caster classes from a widely banned splatbook.

In 5e you can pick said DR as a core option regardless of race and for more than 2 classes that don't happen to work on level 1-9 abilities divided by schools that must be prepared on slots.

[Username17]

Ok, you can pick DR at low levels in 3.5 if you're willing to play the robot splatbook race and spend a feat anyway, or if you pick one of two pseudo-caster classes from a widely banned splatbook.

In 5e you can pick said DR as a core option regardless of race and for more than 2 classes that don't happen to work on level 1-9 abilities divided by schools that must be prepared on slots.

Low level characters in 5e don't even get feats. Feats are things you have to take instead of ability score increases, which means that having one at all is a trap option at most levels you'd play at.

5e fucking sucks. And one of the many ways it sucks is that any character you want to play that requires even "a feat" to do their thing is already something that can't be "done well" because taking feats is a trap option until you have 20s in everything you care about. The game feat taxes you to get your basic stat increases. Fuck that.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

CR 1/8 Bandit (25 XP)
1x melee +3, 1d8+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.625. Requires 2.1 times as many bandits to kill you.
1x ranged +3, 1d6+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 4.5 to 1.667. Requires 2.7 times as many bandits to kill you.

CR 0 Commoner (10 XP)
1x melee +2, 1d4. DR 3/- reduces average from 2.5 to .25. Requires 10 times as many commoners to kill you. If you actually give them that +1 you mentioned, the average is .75, and it only requires 3.3 times as many commoners to kill you.

CR 1/8 Cultist (25 XP)
1x melee +3, 1d6+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 4.5 to 1.667. Requires 2.7 times as many cultists to kill you.

CR 1/8 Guard (25 XP)
1x melee +3, 1d6+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 4.5 to 1.667. Requires 2.7 times as many guards to kill you.
1x ranged +3, 1d6+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 4.5 to 1.667. Requires 2.7 times as many guards to kill you.

CR 1/8 Noble (25 XP)
1x melee +3, 1d8+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.625. Requires 2.1 times as many nobles to kill you.

CR 1/2 Scout (100 XP)
2x melee +4, 1d6+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.5. Requires 2.2 times as many scouts to kill you.
2x ranged +4, 1d8+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 6.5 to 3.5 Requires 1.9 times as many scouts to kill you.

CR 1/2 Thug (100 XP)
2x melee +4, 1d6+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.5. Requires 2.2 times as many thugs to kill you.
1x ranged +2, 1d10. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.8. Requires 2.0 times as many thugs to kill you.

CR 1/8 Tribal Warrior (25 XP)
1x melee +3, 1d8+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.625. Requires 2.1 times as many tribal warriors to kill you.
1x ranged +3, 1d6+1. DR 3/- reduces average from 4.5 to 1.667. Requires 2.7 times as many tribal warriors to kill you.\

CR 1/4 Acolyte (50 XP)
1x cantrip DC 12 dexterity, 1d8. DR 3/- does nothing, because this is radiant damage. Also it targets your dexterity saving throw, not your AC.

CR 1/8 Kobold (25 XP)
1x melee +4, 1d4+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 6.5 to 1.5. Requires 4.3 times as many kobolds to kill you.
1x ranged +4, 1d4+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 6.5 to 1.5. Requires 4.3 times as many kobolds to kill you.

CR 1/4 Goblin (50 XP)
1x melee +4, 1d6+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.5. Requires 2.2 times as many goblins to kill you.
1x ranged +4, 1d6+2. DR 3/- reduces average from 5.5 to 2.5. Requires 2.2 times as many goblins to kill you.

CR 1/2 Orc (100 XP)
1x melee +5, 1d12+3. DR 3/- reduces average from 9.5 to 6.5. Requires 1.5 times as many orcs to kill you.
1x ranged +5, 1d6+3. DR 3/- reduces average from 6.5 to 3.5. requires 1.9 times as many orcs to kill you.

A level 10 sword-and-board defense fighter is looking at 94 HP, 21 AC, 16 extra HP from second wind, and a +1 dexterity saving throw. Also that 3/- damage reduction, because why not. They can kill two enemies each round at most; less in reality, but let's go with two. Let's also give them initiative, always and forever. And action surge double their round one clearage.

10 enemies will get 12 total attacks (fighter wins).
20 enemies will get 72 total attacks (fighter loses to acolytes and orcs in melee).
50 enemies will get 552 total attacks (fighter loses to everyone except commoners)
150 enemies will get 5402 total attacks (fighter loses to everyone including commoners).

Edit: Obviously, you're never going to play a fight with 150 enemies and roll all 5402 attacks. But when your DM decides to skip to the end, 150 commoners is the "you fight valiantly against the mob of dung-covered farmers, but all is for naught" tipping point for a level 10 fighter. It only takes 20 orcs.

[Grek]

Hey, Dean: Fuck you. I said I'd do one, not three. And Swashbuckler was on the list of "No edition does this well, even 5e." So let's talk about Ninjas. And build a 10th level ninja, since that's the example DSM used in his bullshit "how many commoners does it take" post above.

The two Ninja-like options in 5e are Way of Shadows and Assassin. We will be doing Monk 3/Rouge 7. As a monk, you're going to put max points in Wisdom and Dexerity, and picking Wood Elf because it gives +2 Dex, +1 Wis and a couple sneaking powers. Assuming your DM doesn't let you roll for attributes, your statline is 10, 16, 13, 12, 16, 8. You're not going to be adding to this, because feats (despite what Frank may say) are honestly a better deal than ability score increases. You're taking the Sharpshooter feat instead.

As a rogue with a 4d6 sneak attack, you really want that to happen as often as possible. And as an assassin who gets to do critical hits vs surprised opponents, thereby doubling the size of your sneak attack (yes, criticals double sneak attacks this edition, there is specifically a rule saying that) you want to do sneak attack criticals as often as possible. Fortunately for you, that is hilariously easy.

First, take Expertise: Stealth as one of you three Expertise options. Second, use Pass Without Trace from Shadow Monk before every fight. It costs 2 of your 3 ki points, but it gives +10 to Stealth checks for an hour. Last, use Cunning Action to Hide at the end of each of your turns. Your total hide bonus is +21, making you officially off the RNG from the average observer. Your critical sneak attacks do 2d8+8d6+26 damage, for an average of 63, and life is good.

According to the CR lists, level appropriate 1v1 encounters for a 10th level character include:

• A Deva: 9% chance of spotting you each opposed check, takes an average of successful 3 surprise attacks to kill. You probably win.
• A Yochlol: This is incapable of spotting you and incapable of catching you even if it did. Certain win.
• A Stone Golem: See Yochlol, except with more HP. Certain win.
• A Guardian Naga: This one's actually an 11th level spellcaster who is also immortal. You can easily sneak past one and steal its treasures, but assassinating it in any meaningful fashion is both dangerous and pointless. Let's call that a tie.
• A Death Slaad: This one is actually a threat to you. It can detect thoughts, turn invisible and hunt you down. You can probably sneak past, but even that's chancy. Probably a loss.

[Mask_De_H]

Dude, level 10 is a long ass time to get up and running.