Full Metal Alchemist RPG

[Thymos]

So I've been watching full metal alchemist brotherhood and one thing jumped out at me.

This thing needs an rpg as bad as avatar the last airbender.

I was what basics you all think would be needed?

[TiaC]

The limited abilities of most alchemists makes for a good magic system. You avoid the everyman problem by limiting alchemists' scope.

[ubernoob]

Someone around here wrote (or at least started) an Avatar the last airbender RPG. Ran on dicepools. Avatar and FMA both run on the anime fight engine, and both are pretty much "You know these tricks unless you have a special named character plot specific unique ability" (FMA has them coming back to life/humunculii planting them firmly outside of the base rules for alchemy, while avatar has being the fucking avatar/giant spirit monster/that stupid comet/being the anti avatar by merging with the evil spirit).

So yeah, write some effects, use a dicepool, and don't let anyone be the avatar/the FMA brothers/people that get to break the magic rules of the setting. Unless you want to play that game.

[name_here]

I concur. Either the entire party has passed through the Gate of Truth or none of them have.

[fectin]

I'm not sure - it seems like you could make the gate of truth one of several ways to do combat alchemy. Sure, it's convenient, but Mustang does pretty well without it. You can easily require focii/material components for combat alchemy, then have no-circle alchemy be equivalent to eschewing materials.

[DSMatticus]

Yeah, it's probably more difficult to name alchemists who can't do combat alchemy than it is to name ones who can. They prepare the needed symbols before combat, frequently with whatever materials happen to be handy and taking only a few minutes of preparation and then off they go. The big limiter is actually knowledge and expertise. Roy Mustang doesn't do flame alchemy in combat because he has the gloves; he has the gloves because he understands flame alchemy well enough to do it in combat. The gun doesn't make the marksman even if the marksman isn't much without the gun.

It's also worth asking what the Gate actually does for Edward. Keep in mind he hasn't just been through the Gate, he had access to the personal library of one of the greatest alchemists to have ever lived and is supposed to be a prodigy of unprecedented proportions, all well before he goes through the Gate. And even then, most of Edward's combat alchemy is to turn the terrain around him into a weapon. You know, like Alex Armstrong does without ever having been through the gate. (It also lets him do a lot of unique knotcutting bullshit when combined with his SUPER GENIUS status, but meh.)

Regular alchemists have to prepare foci for each related group of powers. For certain powers, they have to make choices during foci prep (for example, if you're preparing a focus for a wall effect, you probably have to choose a category of substances you want to make the wall out of, and have to have that substance available in order to use the ability). If you've been through the Gate, you declare "foci" at activation time, which means those choices mean considerably less to you. Which means the Gate is a fairly minor "has to jump through less hoops in order to get the GM to give him his powers after he's been disarmed" ability + synergy with the iconic Elric brother abilities.

[Hicks]

Someone around here wrote (or at least started) an Avatar the last airbender RPG. Ran on dicepools.

That was me; I did that. I gotta say that "Anime Fight Engine" would be a kickass name for my Avatar: the last RPG with all the IP scrubbed out.

I thought the gate allowed Edward to alchemy without a specially created circle by allowing him to use the palms of his clapping hands as a circle, bypassing the tedious creation of specialty circles for specific uses and adjusting the effects on the fly in combat time.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I thought the gate allowed Edward to alchemy without a specially created circle by allowing him to use the palms of his clapping hands as a circle, bypassing the tedious creation of specialty circles for specific uses and adjusting the effects on the fly in combat time.

Yes, but the actual differential effect is extremely modest compared to other named alchemists. I mean, Al does basically the same thing even before he realizes that he's been through the gate, he just draws his circles at improbable speed. Other named alchemists produce new effects on the fly as well, it's just technobabble-justified as a new application of what they already do.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So, basically, Ed (and the other gate-users) don't have to prepare their spells to cast them in combat time.

I think that not allowing gate-users would logically make combat faster, open the door{1} for the fun activity of downtime catalog shopping for spells{2}, encourage variety for PCs, and generally make the game better.

{1}: not to be confused with the aforementioned gate
{2}: as opposed to combat time catalog shopping, which is a pain

[ubernoob]

Guys, I think you're missing the point. The fact that other named alchemists can do combat alchemy via tattoos/gloves/etc and the Elric brothers can just plant their hands anywhere and do anything means something specific to your game engine.

It means that anyone that hasn't passed through the gate is a prepared caster while the Elric brothers get to cast [WHATEVER THE WRITERS CAN JUSTIFY BEING IN THEIR SPELL LIST AS GENIUS ALCHEMISTS] on the fly. The fact that edward largely limits this to modifying terrain or resculpting his automail instead of say, transmuting people into fish/destroying everyone's prepared circles right off the bat/hiding inside Al and making him into a literal thinking tank with a combat alchemist giving him infinite healing inside of it...

That's because the writers want to make it go on the anime fight engine. As written, the Elric brothers can do rituals as a standard action. That's a giant fucking deal when you combine it with uncapped spell knowledge. The fact that they DON'T abuse this shit and become god status is just the way the plot for that show works.

But if you let your players pass through the gate, be prepared to play a whole bunch of magic tea party because you just removed the only limitation on your magic system.

Remember, everyone that isn't the elric brothers/Scar/humonculus/similar "breaks the rules of alchemy" character is a god damn one trick pony. Roy mustang can create fire REALLY HARD... and that's it. He's a fire mage. Because that's the only spell he prepares. He can't modify terrain, heal Al, modify automail, or any of that shit. He just creates fire really hard.

The vast majority of the enemies that the Elric brothers face get to cheat and break the rules, and that is why it is ok for the Elric brothers to do the same. If you're going to be running an actual game you should not expect Roy Mustang to perform the same as the Elric brothers because rationally the first thing any enemy would do is target his fucking gloves and render him useless.

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you're going to be running an actual game you should not expect Roy Mustang to perform the same as the Elric brothers because rationally the first thing any enemy would do is target his fucking gloves and render him useless.

As opposed to disabling Ed's arm and rendering him powerless?

[RadiantPhoenix]

Honestly, the others don't go to the limit of plausibility either.

• Why should you limit yourself to just fire on your gloves? Why not fire on one glove, and reshaping steel on the other?
• Why not a backup ring, with a slightly different circle?
• Maybe another backup on your belt buckle?

EDIT: Clearly the practical limitation is what you can train to use in combat

EDIT 2: changed formatting/layout

[ubernoob]

If you're going to be running an actual game you should not expect Roy Mustang to perform the same as the Elric brothers because rationally the first thing any enemy would do is target his fucking gloves and render him useless.

As opposed to disabling Ed's arm and rendering him powerless?

Ed literally forms an alchemy circle with one hand + one foot at one point. As long as he forms a circle, it's legit.

Edit: I feel like we're getting off topic. Everyone seems to agree that letting players pass through the gate translates directly into a headache at the table. As far as creating a game goes, the obvious decision would be to build your rules for regular alchemists as prepared casters/sorcerers first and later try to work in some rules for gate/humonculi/etc. The fact that dumpster diving for spells in the middle of combat is a headache is way more of an issue than any argument about how the anime worked.

[RadiantPhoenix]

The fact that dumpster diving for spells in the middle of combat is a headache is way more of an issue than any argument about how the anime worked.

Very true.

[DSMatticus]

ubernoob, you seem to be under some mistaken impressions.

Edward Elric is a special snowflake genius and he has been through the Gate. Those are separate abilities, and they do separate things for him. The latter means he gets to use alchemy without prepared foci, and the former means he knows all the alchemy. Nobody is suggesting "knows all the alchemy" is an appropriate ability for a PC to have, because they have to share the spotlight with other PC's, but the fact that Edward Elric gets both doesn't actually mean they're linked.

Here's a hypothetical: if you gave a random alchemist a copy of Roy's gloves, do you think you'd end up with another Flame Alchemist? Of course not. The reason Roy is the Flame Alchemist is because he is the apprentice of Berthold Hawkeye and had access to the one and only copy of his finished research - his daughter's back. He has a Ph.D level understanding of setting shit on fire. You could give someone his gloves, but it'd no more make them the Flame Alchemist than giving someone a stethoscope would make them a doctor. And you know what else won't make you a doctor? Replacing your ear with a stethoscope. Nor will the Gate turn you into a master alchemist.

As to whether or not having prepared casters and spontaneous casters with no real downsides next to eachother is problematic... keep in mind this is a setting where people are defined by a handful of abilities around a central theme or two. It's an at-will system where you never have more than 6-12 combat abilities, and it should probably be the goal that everyone has all of their known combat powers available at all times. In order to better emulate the series and make the Gate an advantage, you let people group related powers on the same foci (encouraging specialization for people who require foci, letting other people generalize). Gaters should probably know very slightly less combat powers overall in order to compensate. While people like Roy were learning how to murder things a fifth way, they were trying to figure out how to correct their Tragic Backstory(tm).

[name_here]

ubernoob, you seem to be under some mistaken impressions.

Edward Elric is a special snowflake genius and he has been through the Gate. Those are separate abilities, and they do separate things for him. The latter means he gets to use alchemy without prepared foci, and the former means he knows all the alchemy. Nobody is suggesting "knows all the alchemy" is an appropriate ability for a PC to have, because they have to share the spotlight with other PC's, but the fact that Edward Elric gets both doesn't actually mean they're linked.

Uh, they pretty much are. Like, people can go through the Gate without being master alchemists, but then there's not enough left of them to bury.

[ubernoob]

ubernoob, you seem to be under some mistaken impressions.

Edward Elric is a special snowflake genius and he has been through the Gate. Those are separate abilities, and they do separate things for him. The latter means he gets to use alchemy without prepared foci, and the former means he knows all the alchemy. Nobody is suggesting "knows all the alchemy" is an appropriate ability for a PC to have, because they have to share the spotlight with other PC's, but the fact that Edward Elric gets both doesn't actually mean they're linked.

Right, those are separate entries. That said, at what point would you have a player ever select the ability "Has been through the gate" WITHOUT also immediately grabbing "ABILITY TO DUMPSTERDIVE FOREVER" as their next ability? Assuming that you have such an ability selectable. The source material implies that not only should that be a selectable ability, but also one that is easier to grab than being a Gater. One way to balance this out would be to separate your Combat Alchemy resources (spells) from Noncombat Alchemy (rituals ala 4E) and just claiming that GENIUS ALCHEMISTS are simply higher level than other alchemists. This would also work well in a dicepool system because it means that the Elric brothers aren't immediately tanks (although they do have plot armor).

Here's a hypothetical: if you gave a random alchemist a copy of Roy's gloves, do you think you'd end up with another Flame Alchemist? Of course not. The reason Roy is the Flame Alchemist is because he is the apprentice of Berthold Hawkeye and had access to the one and only copy of his finished research - his daughter's back. He has a Ph.D level understanding of setting shit on fire. You could give someone his gloves, but it'd no more make them the Flame Alchemist than giving someone a stethoscope would make them a doctor. And you know what else won't make you a doctor? Replacing your ear with a stethoscope. Nor will the Gate turn you into a master alchemist.

Point being, even being THE BEST FLAME ALCHEMIST EVAR he is still obviously at a lower power level than the "Breaks the rules of alchemy" main characters. There's a bunch of them. Roy Mustang doesn't just have "AWESOME FIRE POWERS" on his sheet, but also "GETS TO BOSS AROUND PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL GUNS" on his sheet to keep him relevant in the story.

As to whether or not having prepared casters and spontaneous casters with no real downsides next to eachother is problematic... keep in mind this is a setting where people are defined by a handful of abilities around a central theme or two. It's an at-will system where you never have more than 6-12 combat abilities, and it should probably be the goal that everyone has all of their known combat powers available at all times. In order to better emulate the series and make the Gate an advantage, you let people group related powers on the same foci (encouraging specialization for people who require foci, letting other people generalize). Gaters should probably know very slightly less combat powers overall in order to compensate. While people like Roy were learning how to murder things a fifth way, they were trying to figure out how to correct their Tragic Backstory(tm).

Tying being a Gater to Tragic Backstory Disadvantage (and actually having that mean something) seems pretty reasonable. Grouped thematic powers (which is basically how Hicks did it for his avatar game) is ideal for both matching the setting, and playability.


So what seems to be agreed on:

1) Dicepool system with small pools of themed powers similar to Hick's Avatar game.
2) Gaters are tricky, and we'd have to iron out more of the system to make the system either accommodate them in normal parties, or in parties of similar power levels (see: the difference between a dark heresy character and a Deathwatch character even though the two systems can interact with each other in theory)
3) Focii are important
4) Anyone want to start writing this up? I'm a bit rusty on the source material, AND I have minimal experience designing dicepool games, so I am not the best person to ask. Alternatively, you could just say that since the combat alchemy effects are so unique to each character in the show, that you just homebrew your own character for each game and just play FATE. It seems that all we would actually have to do is write down a list of skills (both regular such as perception/acrobatics/stabbystabby/shootyshooty and magical such as firealchemist/terrainalchemist/robocopalchemist(what Ed does) for the stuff we would need to replicate the scenes in the anime).

FATE and writing down each combat alchemy as its own skill seems to be a good solution to explain why Roy Mustang is good at flame and only flame while the Elric brothers are generalists.

[DSMatticus]

Uh, they pretty much are. Like, people can go through the Gate without being master alchemists, but then there's not enough left of them to bury.

Human transmutation is just a particular field of study you can learn, like physics or computer science or biology. Except maybe more like quantum mechanics. It's very complicated, and if you can figure it out you are probably a very bright dude, but it doesn't make you the czar of all human knowledge and there are other people who spent that time mastering other fields and learning other tricks you don't know. Or pissed it away watching cat videos on youtube, whatever.

That said, at what point would you have a player ever select the ability "Has been through the gate" WITHOUT also immediately grabbing "ABILITY TO DUMPSTERDIVE FOREVER"

That is never an ability that would be on the table. That's the point - you don't get to buy special snowflake genius and know all the alchemies. You can't. That's the same problem the D&D wizard has. It's even the same problem the D&D cleric and D&D druid have. Their spell lists are potentially all the things, and that just doesn't work because you have to leave room for other characters to be things other than "copies of that guy" and not feel bad. It's not even preparation time as the problem, because all of those characters take eight hours and change. Reducing the prep time certainly makes it worse, but the fundamental issue is that you're adding a Superbatman to your game and there's a solution to every problem somewhere in that toolbelt.

One way to balance this out would be to separate your Combat Alchemy resources (spells) from Noncombat Alchemy (rituals ala 4E) and just claiming that GENIUS ALCHEMISTS are simply higher level than other alchemists

This is totally what you do. Combat alchemy and noncombat alchemy are two different beasts, and what people can do given some downtime is very different from what they can do in combat.

even being THE BEST FLAME ALCHEMIST EVAR he is still obviously at a lower power level than the "Breaks the rules of alchemy" main characters. There's a bunch of them.

Roy pretty much beats Ed in a straight up fight. Edward Elric's combat alchemy isn't actually all that special once you take away his plot-driven knotcutting ability (where he comes up with Star Trek style solutions because genius, and implements them on the fly because Gate). He's basically just a refluffed Alex Armstrong - use the terrain as a battlefield control weapon and for ranged attacks + lots of alchemy-augmented melee.

[ubernoob]

Roy pretty much beats Ed in a straight up fight. Edward Elric's combat alchemy isn't actually all that special once you take away his plot-driven knotcutting ability (where he comes up with Star Trek style solutions because genius, and implements them on the fly because Gate). He's basically just a refluffed Alex Armstrong - use the terrain as a battlefield control weapon and for ranged attacks + lots of alchemy-augmented melee.

And I contend that this is because Ed is kind of stupid when it comes to tactics. Instead of going full earthbender, he tries to go all stabby stabby. Granted, I wouldn't have enjoyed the show as much if he was as clever as his enemies, but lets agree that Ed could have been much more effective than he was based on his power set being "Has passed through the gate" and "Prodigy son of prodigy alchemist."

But yeah, between splitting combat magic from ritual magic and defining each themed set of techniques as their own dicepool, I think we can model the Elric brothers halfway decently while still being able to model Roy mustang.

[Username17]

Anime Fight Engine gives people relatively few powers and lets them use a lot of stunts and bullshit with those powers to do stuff. Early Katara has one power: control water (eventually she gets other powers like Healing and Blood Bending and shit, but in the beginning she just has the one). And still, she is able to do maneuverability, attacks, defenses, and battlefield control all with that one power just by describing it differently.

Now Avatar in particular has an interesting thing going where some of those things are specifically easier for one discipline or another. It's trivial for an air bender to do mobility effects (even small children can do it), but it's hard for them to do attacks. On the flip side, even unnamed fire benders of limited ability can still do fire attacks, but you have to be a serious badass to use fire bending for rocket propulsion mobility.

Full Metal Alchemist is not so tidily arranged. Each alchemist's strengths and weaknesses are much more personal. But it's the same basic idea. There are maneuver categories, and your power has synergy bonuses with some maneuver categories and not with others. But while you have that numeric bonus, every thing you actually do is a described stunt using your power in some novel fashion. Superhero comics pretty much run on the same engine.

-Username17