When should you say "Roll initiative"?

[infected slut princess]

That might seem like a dumb question. You roll initiative when the fighting begins!

But compare these situations:

"A fat naked guy runs into the room. ROLL INITIATIVE!!!"
"A fat naked guy runs into the room."

"You see a dragon flying in the distance. ROLL INITIATIVE!!!"
"You see a dragon flying in the distance."

"The warrior draws his sword as he rants maniacally. ROLL INITIATIVE!"
"The warrior draws his sword as he rants maniacally."

"The wizard casts a mage armor spell. ROLL INITIATIVE!!"
"The wizard casts a mage armor spell."

I think what these examples show is that attaching "ROLL INITIATIVE!!!" to any statement implies that some "Aggrsesive" action is taking place on one side or another, when that might not strictly be true. It is much more open-ended when you don't tell the players to roll initiative.

But you also need initiative when it's important to know the order in which things happen, which is not something that exclusively happens in combat.

So can you formalize when the "ROLL INITIATIVE!" line should be used?

[Whatever]

As soon as a second party (usually the players, sometimes the monsters) wants to take an action, you roll initiative:

"You see a dragon flying in the distance."
"Okay. We keep an eye on it."

"You see a dragon flying in the distance."
"I cast..."
"Hold on. ROLL INITIATIVE!"

"We bust down the door!"
"You smash into the room. The baron reaches for his sword. ROLL INITIATIVE!"

"We bust down the door!"
"You smash into the room. The baron says 'I surrender!' and throws up his hands."

[K]

When a PC or NPC wants to interrupt an action.

[Pedantic]

When a PC or NPC wants to interrupt an action.

Or alternately, ready an action.

[tussock]

@Pedantic, Readying an action before combat starts is stupid, just so you know.


But yeh, oldschool D&D happens to have that one right, first you all announce your intentions, then you roll initiative if you need it to resolve a disputed order of events (like when players and monsters try to be the first to kill the other ones).

If there's no interaction between sides yet, or only one side able to attack, just count off rounds for preparatory casting and closing distance until someone really needs to roll initiative.

[Kaelik]

When a PC or NPC wants to interrupt an action.

I think this is actually a terrible system.

No one wants to "interrupt" anyone's action when a Dragon sees the party 1000ft away and the Wizard wants to cast 8 buff spells and the Dragon wants to fly over and eat the party. The Dragon wants to fly 800ft, the Wizard wants to cast 8 spells. Neither of those interrupts the other, but it is blatantly obvious that you need to start initiative because next round it will matter whether the Wizard has been able to cast two spells or only one before the Dragon can breath fire, and the Wizard might cast a different first spell if he can get two.

[K]

When a PC or NPC wants to interrupt an action.

I think this is actually a terrible system.

No one wants to "interrupt" anyone's action when a Dragon sees the party 1000ft away and the Wizard wants to cast 8 buff spells and the Dragon wants to fly over and eat the party. The Dragon wants to fly 800ft, the Wizard wants to cast 8 spells. Neither of those interrupts the other, but it is blatantly obvious that you need to start initiative because next round it will matter whether the Wizard has been able to cast two spells or only one before the Dragon can breath fire, and the Wizard might cast a different first spell if he can get two.

You can still have rounds without rolling initiative. If there is no conflict, it doesn't even matter who goes first.

The Dragon can go 800 feet, the wizard gets a spell off, and the next round is where initiative is rolled because it's the one where the dragon is trying to interrupt (act before) the spellcasting Wizard.

That being said, buff spells are stupid and there are more problems with them than with when to start rolling initiative.

[Kaelik]

You can still have rounds without rolling initiative. If there is no conflict, it doesn't even matter who goes first.

The Dragon can go 800 feet, the wizard gets a spell off, and the next round is where initiative is rolled because it's the one where the dragon is trying to interrupt (act before) the spellcasting Wizard.

That being said, buff spells are stupid and there are more problems with them than with when to start rolling initiative.

And you don't think the Wizard should be able to decide which spell he casts in the first round based on how many he's going to get to cast?

[Pedantic]

@Pedantic, Readying an action before combat starts is stupid, just so you know.

That was my point. When someone wants to ready an action, clearly combat should have started.

[K]

You can still have rounds without rolling initiative. If there is no conflict, it doesn't even matter who goes first.

The Dragon can go 800 feet, the wizard gets a spell off, and the next round is where initiative is rolled because it's the one where the dragon is trying to interrupt (act before) the spellcasting Wizard.

That being said, buff spells are stupid and there are more problems with them than with when to start rolling initiative.

And you don't think the Wizard should be able to decide which spell he casts in the first round based on how many he's going to get to cast?

I don't understand the question.

[Endovior]

You can still have rounds without rolling initiative. If there is no conflict, it doesn't even matter who goes first.

The Dragon can go 800 feet, the wizard gets a spell off, and the next round is where initiative is rolled because it's the one where the dragon is trying to interrupt (act before) the spellcasting Wizard.

That being said, buff spells are stupid and there are more problems with them than with when to start rolling initiative.

And you don't think the Wizard should be able to decide which spell he casts in the first round based on how many he's going to get to cast?

I don't understand the question.

What K said.

Kaelik seems to be arguing that the Wizard should be able to decide which spells he should cast in prep time based on whether or not he wins initiative, before he wins initiative.
That's obviously a stupid argument, but I can't see what other argument he was trying to make by saying that.

[Blade]

When not having everything ordered bothers me more than having to roll and keep track of initiative.

[tussock]

@Pedantic, Readying an action before combat starts is stupid, just so you know.

That was my point. When someone wants to ready an action, clearly combat should have started.

If he does X, I'll do Y. That's ready. So you ready, and he readies, and you interrupt each other once you roll initiative, only you don't, because no one's actually doing anything yet.

Pet peeve a bit there, but you get to go before people by going, not by waiting for them to go. The Ready action is there to fix the problems of the chunky initiative system around disrupting spells or catching people crossing open ground, not to pretend you can start a fight without starting a fight.

[Kaelik]

And you don't think the Wizard should be able to decide which spell he casts in the first round based on how many he's going to get to cast?

I don't understand the question.

What K said.

Kaelik seems to be arguing that the Wizard should be able to decide which spells he should cast in prep time based on whether or not he wins initiative, before he wins initiative.
That's obviously a stupid argument, but I can't see what other argument he was trying to make by saying that.

No, what I'm obviously arguing is that when you see a Dragon far away, you should roll initiative because the Wizard should know right then just from looking whether he can cast two spells or one before the Dragon gets there.

If you can see the Dragon, and you can see it flying towards you, then you should damn well know if you can cast twice or once.

Hell, maybe if you can cast two spells, you might start with fireball. What kind of pseudo world do you want where if you decide to cast fireball you know how spells you can cast before the Dragon gets there, but if you decide to cast buff spells, you have no idea?

[Username17]

No, what I'm obviously arguing is that when you see a Dragon far away, you should roll initiative because the Wizard should know right then just from looking whether he can cast two spells or one before the Dragon gets there.

If you can see the Dragon, and you can see it flying towards you, then you should damn well know if you can cast twice or once.

Real people in the real world do not have this ability, why should characters in a game? Estimating the arrival time of a large, fast moving object in the air is actually really difficult. Saying that people should just be able to passively do it without making a spot check or something is pretty crazy.

-Username17

[Korwin]

No, what I'm obviously arguing is that when you see a Dragon far away, you should roll initiative because the Wizard should know right then just from looking whether he can cast two spells or one before the Dragon gets there.

If you can see the Dragon, and you can see it flying towards you, then you should damn well know if you can cast twice or once.

Real people in the real world do not have this ability, why should characters in a game? Estimating the arrival time of a large, fast moving object in the air is actually really difficult. Saying that people should just be able to passively do it without making a spot check or something is pretty crazy.

-Username17

But he would know if the first spell is Fireball? That is (I think) his point.

[Red_Rob]

The Wizard knows he can definitely get one spell off, and might be able to squeeze another off depending on how quick both he and the dragon are. I fail to see the problem.

If the dragon is out of range to do anything to the party, I would simply say "you have three rounds while it approaches" or somesuch, and roll initiative once it is in range to attack.

The thing where two wizards at extreme range to each other know their movements more precisely than two warriors running at each other is just an artifact of the initiative system. There are plenty of these if you look, like the peasant particle accelerator, or how when you shoot a fireball at a group of people charging you, you hit some and not others depending on their initiative rolls, or the fact that technically a Druid's animal companion can never share spells because they only last as long as they stay adjacent and one of them has to move first and break contact. It's dumb, but that's what you get by breaking simultaneous actions down into a discrete order.

[RobbyPants]

No, what I'm obviously arguing is that when you see a Dragon far away, you should roll initiative because the Wizard should know right then just from looking whether he can cast two spells or one before the Dragon gets there.

If you can see the Dragon, and you can see it flying towards you, then you should damn well know if you can cast twice or once.

Real people in the real world do not have this ability, why should characters in a game? Estimating the arrival time of a large, fast moving object in the air is actually really difficult. Saying that people should just be able to passively do it without making a spot check or something is pretty crazy.

-Username17

But he would know if the first spell is Fireball? That is (I think) his point.

Why? It seems fair to have them make the decision on any given round what to cast based on the current distance.

You don't know how fast it's going, but you know about how far away it is. Whether you buff one more round or take offensive action is based on if you think it will get there in one round. Chances are, you can't predict that until the DM says "roll initiative".

[ishy]

In every game I played in so far, a player can ask for initiative to be rolled if she wants to, just as much as the DM can.
Though the DM sometimes replies that there is no real need for it.

So in the dwagon case the players asks for init roll and since combat would happen just after, why not?

[Voss]

In every game I played in so far, a player can ask for initiative to be rolled if she wants to, just as much as the DM can.
Though the DM sometimes replies that there is no real need for it.

So in the dwagon case the players asks for init roll and since combat would happen just after, why not?

You are taking it as read that combat _will_ happen just afterwards, though that isn't necessarily the case. If the dragon is
'off in the distance' (or whatever) and the wizard casts mage armor (or whatever) doesn't necessarily lead to combat. The dragon could be heading somewhere else, and any number of things could happen.

K is more or less right- init only matters when 2 or more people are competing to get an action off. But the need to roll can come from either side of the table.

[Lokathor]

or the fact that technically a Druid's animal companion can never share spells because they only last as long as they stay adjacent and one of them has to move first and break contact. It's dumb, but that's what you get by breaking simultaneous actions down into a discrete order.

Get an animal that you can ride! Rrawr!

Or only move 10ft every round so that you never have to break adjacent status, but that's shitty.

[K]

I'm not entirely sure why people want DMs to tell PCs what the enemy is going to do for the next several turns.

"You have three turns and then roll initiative" is giving the PCs three rounds of foreknowledge for no reason. It says that the monster won't use movement abilities, won't turn away, won't cast long-ranged spells or abilities, and a host of other possibilities.

[Kaelik]

I'm not entirely sure why people want DMs to tell PCs what the enemy is going to do for the next several turns.

"You have three turns and then roll initiative" is giving the PCs three rounds of foreknowledge for no reason. It says that the monster won't use movement abilities, won't turn away, won't cast long-ranged spells or abilities, and a host of other possibilities.

Great, so then they should probably roll the initiative now instead of in three rounds.

[K]

I'm not entirely sure why people want DMs to tell PCs what the enemy is going to do for the next several turns.

"You have three turns and then roll initiative" is giving the PCs three rounds of foreknowledge for no reason. It says that the monster won't use movement abilities, won't turn away, won't cast long-ranged spells or abilities, and a host of other possibilities.

Great, so then they should probably roll the initiative now instead of in three rounds.

No.

The initiative roll tells the players that immediate and deadly conflict is about to happen; in this case, that the dragon is trying to kill the PCs and the battle music started playing.

Rolling the initiative means that the DM is telling the PCs that the dragon is not going to land and deliver a message or parlay. He's not going to fly over the PCs to get to the other side of the valley. He's not going to get closer to check them out and then fly away because they look tough.

Not only that, but turns where nothing is happening don't even benefit from a initiative count. The Wizard may have a buffing routine, but the barbarian is just going to refocus his initiative count and maybe ready an action, but otherwise is going to sit on his hands each time his initiative pass comes along.

Encounters should have more possible outcomes that just combat.

[Kaelik]

Umm... Going into initiative doesn't have to mean any of those things about the dragon. Going into initiative just means that someone thinks that time is a sensitive issue, not that it must be the case that you have to stab people.