Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheists

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:11 pm

Posted this on another board, but I'm posting it here as well to cast a wider net. Here goes:

Most inhabitants of D&D settings offer prayers and devotion to one deity while acknowledging the existence of other deities. In fact, Clerics aren't polytheists, for most of them pledge their loyalty to a singular deity; they're monolatrists.

Polytheists offer respect and devotion to multiple deities. Most D&D settings have people who may offer prayers to other deities at times, but worship and devotion to a singular deity, or one's patron deity, is still predominant.

In cases of wrathful and evil deities, traditional polytheism would be nearly non-existent. Can you imagine Lolth's clergy tolerating a Drow who offered a prayer to a nature deity to avoid a cave-in instead of the Spider Queen?

The verifiable existence of multiple deities means that actual monotheists are few and far between. Conversely, only the deluded and ignorant would be atheists. But anti-theism is still more common than the former two, as anger and hatred towards the Gods can still occur, especially in bad times. Anti-theism was predominant in the Dragonlance setting after the Cataclysm occurred.

What do you folks think? Agree? Disagree? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:17 pm

Eberron has atheists and worshippers of entire pantheons, of course.

I agree that most D&D settings don't allow for either, though.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:33 pm

Priests in most polytheist cultures were specifically devoted to one deity. A priest of Mars wasn't performing any rites of Pomona. Lay people prayed to whichever god seemed most suited, but actually entering the priesthood involved more commitment.

I've also looked at a bunch of D&D nation write-ups, and of the ones with a religion listing, I didn't see any with fewer than five listings under 'most popular gods.' Seems fairly polytheist to me.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:59 pm

Polytheism and monolatrism aren't exclusive. Monolatrism is a subset of polytheism where you recognize the existence of multiple deities (the polytheistic part) but worship only one (the monolatristic part).

Anyone who gets divine powers (beyond cause-worshipping clerics and ur-priests or other weird things like that) in D&D is probably monolatrist. Which is weird, because you would think that you could have a cleric who prays to the god of health for cure spells and the god of war for buff spells and the god of the harvest for feeding his people when he decides to do that sort of thing and each of those gods is like "sure, cool," because those powers are being used in a way that pleases the god. But no. Clerics get all their powers from a deity, meaning all the gods in D&D have the whole 'worship only me' Judeochristian thing going on.

As for whether the societies themself are monolatrist, I think that's going to depend on how familiar your group is with the pantheon (or how much people care about it). Most people say "Corellon is the god of being elfy, Gruumsh is the god of being orcy, Moradin is the god of being dwarfy, Lolth is the goddess of being drowy, Yondalla is the god of being halflingly" and stop there. But if you start looking at the expanded pantheon, those are actually just Zeus-like deific figures for races that actually have an entire pantheon all to themself.

Though, it is strange that there is someone who is explicitly the god of being elfy and there is no one who is explicitly the god of being humany (someone's going to turn up some really minor deity I can't remember, aren't they?). Outgroup generalization, hah.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:17 pm

DSMatticus wrote:Though, it is strange that there is someone who is explicitly the god of being elfy and there is no one who is explicitly the god of being humany (someone's going to turn him some really minor deity I can't remember, aren't they?). Outgroup generalization, hah.

For the same reason that there's an International Women's Day but not an International Men's Day -- every day is Men's Day!

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:23 pm

D&D priests often pic a single deity, while other people are free to choose who they want.

D&D priests are NOT evangelists trying to convert everyone else to their deity, lest they want to meet their deity of choice quicker rather than later.

too much hyperlinked in your post and the dark background alternating posts are given to really read it, but that is my take on what you are trying to talk about...

the_taken · Post by **the_taken** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:30 pm

hogarth wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:Though, it is strange that there is someone who is explicitly the god of being elfy and there is no one who is explicitly the god of being humany (someone's going to turn him some really minor deity I can't remember, aren't they?). Outgroup generalization, hah.
For the same reason that there's an International Women's Day but not an International Men's Day -- every day is Men's Day!

Just like there's Black History Month and National Hispanic Heritage Month (Sep 15 to Oct 15), but no White European Imperial Colonist's Moment (though your individual country's special day may count). Canada has Asian History Month, and some schools are talking about implementing Middle Easter Heritage Month.

If my whole extended family lived in Bangledesh, would we be allowed to celebrate "Exiled MacGregors/Acadian Day"? (hint: we don't in Canada).

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:04 pm

This is totally and completely off topic, but since we're talking about it: I don't get the cultural heritage celebration thing. I'm all for reminding everyone that minorities are underprivileged and that that is in fact terrible. That part of the whole affair is good. But let's be honest; the average person to whom these heritage celebrations might apply has more in common with their contemporary peers (regardless of ethnicity) than they do with the ancestors they are celebrating. Shouldn't the message be "we're all very samey despite looking slightly different and coming from radically different ancestral pasts," instead of "we're a distinct group because we have a radically different ancestral past, and our group is worthy of respect?"

It seems like it fosters the existence of a totally pointless group A/group B distinction. Even if the message is good, couldn't we fight the act of making that distinction in the first place? That seems like it would go a lot further in terms of net gain.

</totally pointless rant>

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:15 pm

DSMatticus wrote:Though, it is strange that there is someone who is explicitly the god of being elfy and there is no one who is explicitly the god of being humany (someone's going to turn up some really minor deity I can't remember, aren't they?). Outgroup generalization, hah.

Because you asked nicely:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a
(scroll to the bottom)

And huh, I didn't even know there was such a thing as woman's day. Nobody I've ever met celebrates it anyway.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Yeah, me, neither. A female friend of mine from China was quite aghast when I had no idea what or when it was.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:44 pm

And huh, I didn't even know there was such a thing as woman's day. Nobody I've ever met celebrates it anyway.

I knew of women's month, which is March.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:20 pm

A thought. It might be more awesome in D&D if clerics worshiped entire pantheons and then had a single patron god from said pantheon whom they got a domain-esque ability.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:20 am

erik wrote:A thought. It might be more awesome in D&D if clerics worshiped entire pantheons and then had a single patron god from said pantheon whom they got a domain-esque ability.

dont they? sort of like greek or roman or [insert other real world pantheon here]?

they acknowledge them, but only pick one to be in service of.

or do you mean more along the lines of Native American or Viking, where you worship/respect the entire pantheon, depending on the circumstances? IE: got a funeral then pray to the god of death, got a birth the give thanks to the fertility goddess, etc...

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:21 am

Stubbazubba wrote:Yeah, me, neither. A female friend of mine from China was quite aghast when I had no idea what or when it was.

In China, women get a half day off and a small bonus, believe it or not.

Post by **fbmf** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:39 am

hogarth wrote:Eberron has atheists and worshippers of entire pantheons, of course.

I agree that most D&D settings don't allow for either, though.

Why not? How can the average person (PC or not) distinguish between the magic of the guy who reads books, the magic of the guy who has demon blood in him, the magic of the guy who has dragon blood in him, and themagic of the guy who gets on his knees and talks to himself every morning/evening?

"Healing magic", I hear from the peanut gallery. Okay, but some sorcerers can cast fireball and some can't, and eventually arcane casters get some access to healing magic through limited wish if they so desire.

Why does the sorcerer, who just wakes up every morning knowing his spells, need to believe that his cleric friend is the proxy of the invisible sky fairy? To him, the wizard's tomes and the cleric's meditation might just be a psychological crutch, similar to the way real world atheists view prayer, church going, and bible reading now. Sure, the die hard faithful really can make lame beggars walk and blind men see, but the sorcerer has been defying the laws of physics since puberty in ways that the cleric can't, so it follows that the cleric should reasonably be able to manipulate reality in ways the sorcerer can't.

"Domain spells overlap arcane spells", but the optimized party shouldn't have a lot of overlap between their spell selections, so the PCs themselves will rarely see that. If there is a bit of overlap, it could reinforce the idea that the cleric isn't too different from the sorcerer and this "T'wasn't me, it was St. Cuthbert" mantra is some self-denial bullshit...the way atheists think of the faithful in the real world.

Sure, we the players know that the PC atheists are dead wrong, but I've been hearing "PCs can't be atheists" for 20 years now, and I have to ask...why not?

Game On,
fbmf

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:23 am

You can be an atheist in D&D, but it's kind of like being a theist in the real world. You are adopting a belief that is not the simplest explanation for observed evidence. (No, that's not a jab at our resident theists. There are other threads for that. But I don't think it's contentious that god is no longer a default fallback explanation for any observed phenomenon.)

There are entire institutions of people who claim to be able to communicate with gods and some who claim to be able to visit them, and they are sane, respectable members of the community who do amazing things. Wizards do similar things, but even they recognize the distinction between divine magic and arcane magic. And there're semi-empirical differences, depending how you fluff things up. And wizards can visit the gods too. And talk to them. Hell, anyone can. Even people outside the realm of the church.

Basically, being an atheist in D&D is kind of like being a conspiracy nut; you are assuming there is a massive, society-wide conspiracy to deceive people into worshipping the gods for some convoluted reason and everyone around you considers you an embarrassment or an annoyance.

Now, you can believe the gods are "not really gods, just really awesome dudes that are powerful enough to fool everyone into thinking they're gods," but at that point we're getting weird territory and taking advantage of the fact that god is such an ill-defined term. If they're powerful enough to do all the things you'd expect a god to do, doesn't that... make them gods?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:34 am

fbmf wrote:Sure, we the players know that the PC atheists are dead wrong, but I've been hearing "PCs can't be atheists" for 20 years now, and I have to ask...why not?

Commune, Contact Other Plane, Planeshift.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:22 am

DSMatticus wrote:This is totally and completely off topic, but since we're talking about it: I don't get the cultural heritage celebration thing. I'm all for reminding everyone that minorities are underprivileged and that that is in fact terrible. That part of the whole affair is good. But let's be honest; the average person to whom these heritage celebrations might apply has more in common with their contemporary peers (regardless of ethnicity) than they do with the ancestors they are celebrating. Shouldn't the message be "we're all very samey despite looking slightly different and coming from radically different ancestral pasts," instead of "we're a distinct group because we have a radically different ancestral past, and our group is worthy of respect?"

It seems like it fosters the existence of a totally pointless group A/group B distinction. Even if the message is good, couldn't we fight the act of making that distinction in the first place? That seems like it would go a lot further in terms of net gain.

</totally pointless rant>

So your prescription for the marginalization of Jews in Europe is to ask them to get with the program and start eating pork like everyone else?

Out here there totally was a movement to get minority groups to assimilate as fast as possible: we call it "The Inquisition".

-Username17

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:05 am

What if you want people to "get with the program" and stop hating minorities their ancestors hated? Or to "get with the program" and stop cutting off girls' private parts?

Assimilation is not a bad thing if it leads to people stop doing inhuman things to others.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:21 am

FrankTrollman wrote:So your prescription for the marginalization of Jews in Europe is to ask them to get with the program and start eating pork like everyone else?

That was a baaad example. A dietary choice based originally on a religious belief? I am 100% fine going on record saying I want every variety of organized religion to disappear (nonviolently, due to gradual social pressures). Aren't you?

But I get your general point, and no, I think you misunderstood. I didn't say we should discourage differences between people in order to create a homogenous group. I said that emphasizing similarities is a better way to encourage tolerance than to emphasize differences. It's very hard to discriminate against an ethnicity if you don't consider that ethnicity a meaningfully distinct group from your own. There was a time when what variety of white you were was a significant part of your identity. Now it isn't (in the U.S.). And I've never heard anyone complain that the Irish are ruining America.

The loss (again, in the U.S.) of the shades of whiteness seems to have reduced discrimination. Isn't that the goal? (There's a chicken or the egg discussion to be had here, I'll admit, and if I'm wrong there then I'm simply wrong: I'm trying to skip to the end without taking the proper steps.)

FrankTrollman wrote:Out here there totally was a movement to get minority groups to assimilate as fast as possible: we call it "The Inquisition".

Well, 1: I'm talking about emphasizing existing similarities. The inquisition went about taking dissimilar groups and... persuading them to become similar.
2: The inquisitions goal was to broaden the power and prevalence of a specific social group. I don't care what the social groupings look like in the end. I don't want Jews/Hispanics/Africans to adopt whiteness; I want society to forget that Jewish vs Hispanic vs African vs Caucasian are meaningful distinctions at all.
3: The inquisition went about torturing and murdering people, and I'm talking about what the message of a totally non-violent public relations campaign should be.

The inquisition was violence for the sake of power. I'm talking about advertising for the sake of tolerance. I think those are pretty different in terms of moral evaluation.

Post by **fbmf** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:13 am

Kaelik wrote:
fbmf wrote:Sure, we the players know that the PC atheists are dead wrong, but I've been hearing "PCs can't be atheists" for 20 years now, and I have to ask...why not?
Commune, Contact Other Plane, Planeshift.

Ever seen The Wizard of Oz? Remember the scene where Dot et al meet the Wizard?

Having a booming voice answer your questions, and even going to his house and seeing his floating green head speak to you doesn't mean that a given god exists.

Also, see below.

DSM wrote:Now, you can believe the gods are "not really gods, just really awesome dudes that are powerful enough to fool everyone into thinking they're gods

What if we go with "there are really awesome extraplanar dudes, and you can even worship them if it makes you feel better, but doing so nets you nothing."?

Game On,
fbmf

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:36 pm

fbmf wrote:Sure, we the players know that the PC atheists are dead wrong, but I've been hearing "PCs can't be atheists" for 20 years now, and I have to ask...why not?

I'm talking about campaign settings where gods literally walk the earth from time to time, or where you can plane shift and visit god's house and watch him perform miracles.

fbmf wrote:Ever seen The Wizard of Oz? Remember the scene where Dot et al meet the Wizard?

Having a booming voice answer your questions, and even going to his house and seeing his floating green head speak to you doesn't mean that a given god exists.

I agree that if the only way that anyone can interact personally with the gods is in a "Wizard of Oz"-type manner (e.g. where it's not actually possible to watch a god doing real god stuff), then it makes sense to have atheists, agnostics, etc.

Post by **fbmf** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:48 pm

hogarth wrote:
fbmf wrote:Sure, we the players know that the PC atheists are dead wrong, but I've been hearing "PCs can't be atheists" for 20 years now, and I have to ask...why not?
I'm talking about campaign settings where gods literally walk the earth from time to time, or where you can plane shift and visit god's house and watch him perform miracles.

How is that readily distinguishable from stuff an epic level wizard can do?

Game On,
fbmf

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:16 pm

fbmf wrote:Ever seen The Wizard of Oz? Remember the scene where Dot et al meet the Wizard?

Having a booming voice answer your questions, and even going to his house and seeing his floating green head speak to you doesn't mean that a given god exists.

??? Yes it does. If you meet a guy who can cast Wish at will, then by definition you have met a guy who can cast Wish at will. He can demonstrate that by repeatedly casting Wish.

If you ask four hundred thousand questions of someone, and their answer to every single one of those is correct, then clearly they have demonstrated that they know a bunch of things.

Gods have a bunch of abilities, they can demonstrate all those abilities, and they can demonstrate their existence. Yes, it's certainly possible that the Boccob you are talking to is actually a Permanent Image created by a different guy also named Boccob who has all the powers the guy you are talking to claims to have.

But the thing is, the Wizard in Oz is not a Wizard because he doesn't have the powers attributed to him, not because he hid behind a curtain. Boccob actually does have all the powers that are attributed to him, and he can freely demonstrate them 22 9th level spells per round.

fbmf wrote:What if we go with "there are really awesome extraplanar dudes, and you can even worship them if it makes you feel better, but doing so nets you nothing."?

??? So? Worshiping a deistic god doesn't get you anything either, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

No one can possibly say that Boccob doesn't exist, and that he doesn't have the assorted powers he has.

I don't care if they don't worship him, because that's not atheism. Lots of people don't worship Boccob because they worship other gods, but no one, either a worshiper of Vecna, or someone who doesn't worship any god, can possibly claim with any degree of non idiocy that Boccob doesn't exist.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:48 pm

fbmf wrote: How is that readily distinguishable from stuff an epic level wizard can do?

I don't know what to tell you. If gods and epic level wizards are indistinguishable in your campaign, then I'm not sure why you're trying to distinguish between them.