CR/Level/HD divide

[Vnonymous]

Is there any reason why these should ever diverge? We know that level is meant to equal CR, so why should monster hitdice stop using the same formula? It does weird things when monsters start taking pc classes or become players, and I really can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to make them the same number all around.

[RobbyPants]

I would like to see a system where all three are equal. It would fix a lot of problems.

I suppose you can run into situations where you get stuff like ghosts, who have abilities that are massively more useful to PCs than for NPCs. The easiest solution I can find to that is to figure out what level you want being incorporeal to come online, and give ghosts that many HD as a minimum. It's a quick fix, and might be good enough. If you want lower level ghosts, they simply have a lesser ability, or something.

[mean_liar]

It's the HD part that creates problems, because a bag 'o HP with a big-ass stick isn't really a high CR. I suppose you could just give them a mediocre HD and a massive CON, but that could be odd and the way Saves are calculated would basically make them immune to FORT effects.

[hogarth]

It depends. If you ever want to have dangerous but fragile enemies (or weak but durable enemies), then you need to decouple CR from hit points (whether by changing hit dice or Con), as noted by mean_liar.

[RobbyPants]

Well, I don't care so much about HP, as more of all the advancement of all the numbers like saves, DCs, and BAB. You can always make Ex abilities that grant extra HP, if that's the type of abilities you want the monster to have.

[Almaz]

There is no reason for HD to advance HP alone. HP is a side perk of your level increasing. It was so unimportant that after the first 10 levels, in earlier versions of D&D, it stopped increasing significantly with level, instead being reduced to allowing you to take one more dagger stab (quick, calculate what level Julius Caesar might have been based on the amount of times he was stabbed, assuming average HP at every level for the sake of convenience). No, if you want a fat sack of HP on a monster, you have tools for this. There is no reason HD has to be a value you are seriously expected to roll - we all know how few referees do, and simply take average values. As a courtesy to sensibility and reason, you should at least give guidelines for actually feasibly rolling the dice if someone is so insane as to do so, but you can simply set their HD size to d100, or d10*10, or whatever, and you won't break the damn system.

I'm not saying this is necessarily good design. But if the alternative is stacking on HD pointlessly on a monster that is just supposed to be a fat sack of HP, or stacking on Constitution pointlessly until they are immune to Fort saves, then yes, I'll go with rolling d30s for HP any day.

[PoliteNewb]

There is no reason HD has to be a value you are seriously expected to roll - we all know how few referees do, and simply take average values. As a courtesy to sensibility and reason, you should at least give guidelines for actually feasibly rolling the dice if someone is so insane as to do so, but you can simply set their HD size to d100, or d10*10, or whatever, and you won't break the damn system.

That's an interesting idea, and has some merit.

Frank has spoken before about using Con for the purpose of shifting HP, if they're supposed to be out of whack (higher or lower) than the overall "dangerousness" of the monster. I generally support his point of view...I don't care if elephants or rocs basically never fail Fort saves because they have a Con of 80 or whatever.

Size bonuses to HP are another way to model the "big sack o' HP" concept, since most of those monsters are big.

[Ghostwheel]

@OP: This might interest you.
Here's an example of an MLET monster.

[Almaz]

There is no reason HD has to be a value you are seriously expected to roll - we all know how few referees do, and simply take average values. As a courtesy to sensibility and reason, you should at least give guidelines for actually feasibly rolling the dice if someone is so insane as to do so, but you can simply set their HD size to d100, or d10*10, or whatever, and you won't break the damn system.

That's an interesting idea, and has some merit.

Frank has spoken before about using Con for the purpose of shifting HP, if they're supposed to be out of whack (higher or lower) than the overall "dangerousness" of the monster. I generally support his point of view...I don't care if elephants or rocs basically never fail Fort saves because they have a Con of 80 or whatever.

Size bonuses to HP are another way to model the "big sack o' HP" concept, since most of those monsters are big.

Retarded amounts of Constitution would be OK if there were more than 3 save types, except there aren't, there's 3 save types and if someone who isn't a wizard does anything that is likely to provoke a save, it probably is Fortitude-based somehow, and as a result I am against basically not letting people who have Fortitude-based resistances play the game of giant-slaying. Now, since we're talking about a hypothetical game, we could set up a game where this was not true, but even when you're a "magic warrior" your dickpunch tends to still be physical enough that we use the most physical of resistances to check against.

[fectin]

It's the HD part that creates problems, because a bag 'o HP with a big-ass stick isn't really a high CR. I suppose you could just give them a mediocre HD and a massive CON, but that could be odd and the way Saves are calculated would basically make them immune to FORT effects.

Or just give them toughness a hojillion times.

[mean_liar]

I suppose. Improved Toughness, tons of times, as Bonus Feats.

[Ice9]

CR and HD - sure, those could be unified. Honestly, I'm not so sold that it's that important, but I guess it wouldn't hurt.

CR and ECL though? That's a lot of hoop jumping for dubious benefit. Suddenly, if you want a fairly weak monster but with an ability that would be badass for PCs, you have to use some ugly kludge like "It's level 15, but it has the special Fragile, Bad at Fighting, and Unskilled features that make level 5 in practice." And then you still haven't made playing as a monster any more practical, because now instead of inflated ECL they have inflated levels of suck.

[CCarter]

Retarded amounts of Constitution would be OK if there were more than 3 save types, except there aren't, there's 3 save types and if someone who isn't a wizard does anything that is likely to provoke a save, it probably is Fortitude-based somehow, and as a result I am against basically not letting people who have Fortitude-based resistances play the game of giant-slaying. Now, since we're talking about a hypothetical game, we could set up a game where this was not true, but even when you're a "magic warrior" your dickpunch tends to still be physical enough that we use the most physical of resistances to check against.

Where an effect gets resisted the martial types are as likely to be requiring an opposed attack roll (disarm), a grapple check, or an ability check (trip, bullrush) rather than a save. They're pretty much already boned, but if you were setting up a revised game you could have a Str-based "Might Save" and it would almost certainly still be more balanced than grapple checks are.

On the 'massive Con for monsters' debate - giving your monsters extra Con is giving the monsters more HP than the NPCs of that # levels (theoretically the same CR) get. If the monster is a balanced encounter with +5/level or +10/level or +20/level hit points, then the NPCs without the monster Con bonuses are just going to become a red mist when you hit them with a monster-appropriate amount of damage.
Its a better fix than monsters having 2-4 HD per CR since it keeps other bonuses (saves, BAB, skills) roughly in line with PCs, but still not as good as increasing everyone's HPs or keeping damage down to a balanced amount.

[Kaelik]

On the 'massive Con for monsters' debate - giving your monsters extra Con is giving the monsters more HP than the NPCs of that # levels (theoretically the same CR) get. If the monster is a balanced encounter with +5/level or +10/level or +20/level hit points, then the NPCs without the monster Con bonuses are just going to become a red mist when you hit them with a monster-appropriate amount of damage.
Its a better fix than monsters having 2-4 HD per CR since it keeps other bonuses (saves, BAB, skills) roughly in line with PCs, but still not as good as increasing everyone's HPs or keeping damage down to a balanced amount.

Pretty sure the point of the HP debate is for one monster vs another.

Elephants can have more HP than anything else of their CR, and that's fine, because they don't have flight, DR, the ability to cast Mirror Image ect.

[CCarter]

OK. So if its not every monster picking up extra HPs from Con, just the really big ones, that's not as bad. Elephants I don't care so much, with trolls and stuff that can become PCs you could have problems since you can pick up extra HPs as a monster and then start to add other PC tricks like healing or magic items or whatever until they gets broken.

I do still think that NPCs normally just don't have enough HPs to have the theoretical (CR = NPC level) idea hold true, and that this is a big part of the reason why many monsters are built as [CR = 1/2 HD] or so.

[PoliteNewb]

Let's work backward for a minute here: what is the goal of giving some monsters big gobs of HP (out of line with their HD/CR)?

I mean, you might think the base goal is "make them tougher"...but with so many ways to bypass HP, what you're mainly accomplishing is making them "immune to normal people". Is that pretty much the goal? Because there are probably more elegant ways to go about that.

[Kaelik]

Let's work backward for a minute here: what is the goal of giving some monsters big gobs of HP (out of line with their HD/CR)?

I mean, you might think the base goal is "make them tougher"...but with so many ways to bypass HP, what you're mainly accomplishing is making them "immune to normal people". Is that pretty much the goal? Because there are probably more elegant ways to go about that.

No, the goal is to make them tougher in a specific way, where they can take more sword swings and fireballs, but are still really susceptible mind control, or being put to sleep.

And if you do it by Con, then it also has the side effect of making them harder/immune to insta death, or turning to stone, or turning into a small rabbit. And I'm totally fine with elephants being harder to do those things to, but still really easy to Charm Animal.

There are not that many ways to bypass HP. Most people still deal with that, you people need to stop blowing "Fighter's suck" into "Everything remotely having to do with Fighters actually never takes place in a game."

Lots of people care about HP.

[Almaz]

Let's work backward for a minute here: what is the goal of giving some monsters big gobs of HP (out of line with their HD/CR)?

I mean, you might think the base goal is "make them tougher"...but with so many ways to bypass HP, what you're mainly accomplishing is making them "immune to normal people". Is that pretty much the goal? Because there are probably more elegant ways to go about that.

No, the goal is to make them tougher in a specific way, where they can take more sword swings and fireballs, but are still really susceptible mind control, or being put to sleep.

And if you do it by Con, then it also has the side effect of making them harder/immune to insta death, or turning to stone, or turning into a small rabbit. And I'm totally fine with elephants being harder to do those things to, but still really easy to Charm Animal.

There are not that many ways to bypass HP. Most people still deal with that, you people need to stop blowing "Fighter's suck" into "Everything remotely having to do with Fighters actually never takes place in a game."

Lots of people care about HP.

So what do you say to people who want to use elephant tranquilizers? That elephants are as gods unto men and cannot be poisoned? If we weren't talking about perfectly mortal creatures that die of heart attacks, exhaustion, or poison all the time, I'd be OK with that, but delivering out of scale Constitution for a fat sack of HP is... delivering out of scale Constitution for a fat sack of HP, when you could just give them more HP. Straight up.

[Kaelik]

Let's work backward for a minute here: what is the goal of giving some monsters big gobs of HP (out of line with their HD/CR)?

I mean, you might think the base goal is "make them tougher"...but with so many ways to bypass HP, what you're mainly accomplishing is making them "immune to normal people". Is that pretty much the goal? Because there are probably more elegant ways to go about that.

No, the goal is to make them tougher in a specific way, where they can take more sword swings and fireballs, but are still really susceptible mind control, or being put to sleep.

And if you do it by Con, then it also has the side effect of making them harder/immune to insta death, or turning to stone, or turning into a small rabbit. And I'm totally fine with elephants being harder to do those things to, but still really easy to Charm Animal.

There are not that many ways to bypass HP. Most people still deal with that, you people need to stop blowing "Fighter's suck" into "Everything remotely having to do with Fighters actually never takes place in a game."

Lots of people care about HP.

So what do you say to people who want to use elephant tranquilizers? That elephants are as gods unto men and cannot be poisoned? If we weren't talking about perfectly mortal creatures that die of heart attacks, exhaustion, or poison all the time, I'd be OK with that, but delivering out of scale Constitution for a fat sack of HP is... delivering out of scale Constitution for a fat sack of HP, when you could just give them more HP. Straight up.

I tell people who want to use Elephant Tranquilizers that Elephant Tranqs take out human beings 100 percent of the time. Which is a lot like having a DC so high that an elephant usually fails it. Or just not offering a save.

Congratulations. Looks like Elephants with high Con are still subject to elephant tranqs. They just don't exist in a fantasy world. Alternatively, you could just find some way to have a single shot deliver 20 doses of Drow Sleep Poison, which would have a similar effect, one or two shots to take out an elephant (or anything else).

I mean, do you not understand that Elephant tranqs are such a big deal because they also kill most people? And are hard to make without advanced science?

Once again, the Con does give a sack of HP, but hey, it also makes them very resistance against fort save based things, like Poison, death effects, polymorph effects, fatigue effects. That's cool, because that's also something I want my big hulking elephants to be more resistant against than the average monster.

[PoliteNewb]

Let's work backward for a minute here: what is the goal of giving some monsters big gobs of HP (out of line with their HD/CR)?

I mean, you might think the base goal is "make them tougher"...but with so many ways to bypass HP, what you're mainly accomplishing is making them "immune to normal people". Is that pretty much the goal? Because there are probably more elegant ways to go about that.

No, the goal is to make them tougher in a specific way, where they can take more sword swings and fireballs, but are still really susceptible mind control, or being put to sleep.

So the goal is to widen the fighter vs. wizard divide. Gotcha. Good plan.

[Kaelik]

So the goal is to widen the fighter vs. wizard divide. Gotcha. Good plan.

You are an idiot.

1) The Fighter Wizard divide is between interesting and boring. Fighters can already one shot everything in the entire game with no way of avoiding aside from "never be within 120ft line of effect of a fighter at the beginning of his turn, unless you have the ability to use an immediate action or readied action to not be." Making some monster have more HP doesn't have any effect on this mythical divide you fap to every night.

2) This is about how to make some monsters have more HP than other monsters. What kind of fucking retard wants all monsters to be exactly identical, such that none of them can ever diverge in any direction ever? Why the fuck are you opposed to monsters being different?

3) No, it's about making monsters who are big sack of HP big sacks of HP, no one but you can into this argument questioning the assumption that a CR 8 Elephant should have more HP than a CR 8 elemental or CR 8 Fairy. So we are discussing the best way to implement that.

The fact that my suggested way of implementing it makes Elephants also immune to save or dies based on Fort saves, means it's the exact motherfucking opposite of widening the Fighter Wizard divide.

[Strung Nether]

@OP: This might interest you.
Here's an example of an MLET monster.

Hold on...are you telling me that ray of stupidity will take out the Tarrasque in one or two casts? wow.

nvmd, I forgot the "I'm immune to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING but damage, have 700 HP, dr20, Fast heal 20, and am generally a massive tool" special ability.

The Tarrasque is a stupid monster.

[Strung Nether]

So the goal is to widen the fighter vs. wizard divide. Gotcha. Good plan.

You are an idiot.

1) The Fighter Wizard divide is between interesting and boring. Fighters can already one shot everything in the entire game with no way of avoiding aside from "never be within 120ft line of effect of a fighter at the beginning of his turn, unless you have the ability to use an immediate action or readied action to not be." Making some monster have more HP doesn't have any effect on this mythical divide you fap to every night.

2) This is about how to make some monsters have more HP than other monsters. What kind of fucking retard wants all monsters to be exactly identical, such that none of them can ever diverge in any direction ever? Why the fuck are you opposed to monsters being different?

3) No, it's about making monsters who are big sack of HP big sacks of HP, no one but you can into this argument questioning the assumption that a CR 8 Elephant should have more HP than a CR 8 elemental or CR 8 Fairy. So we are discussing the best way to implement that.

The fact that my suggested way of implementing it makes Elephants also immune to save or dies based on Fort saves, means it's the exact motherfucking opposite of widening the Fighter Wizard divide.

How about letting certain monster classes have multiple dice for hitdice? 3d4 HD/level anyone? I see no reason that HD has to be tied to challenge level. Monsters aren't built like characters, most of their abilities simply don't scale or don't work at any level except the one that they face the party at.

[K]

Is there any reason why these should ever diverge? We know that level is meant to equal CR, so why should monster hitdice stop using the same formula? It does weird things when monsters start taking pc classes or become players, and I really can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to make them the same number all around.

Are there any good reasons?

No, but there are some terrible reasons. I mean, people want to make BS puzzle monsters with bags of HPs or tiny HPs or create various save schemes but they are tied to the Type/HD mechanic AND you need to preserve various HD-based mechanics like Turning and the like but you still end up with unintended effects...

So the answer is "yes, your instinct that these could all be collapsed into one mechanic and you'd have a better and cleaner system is absolutely correct." There would be a cascade effect where various systems would need to rewritten ranging from Undead HPs to Planar Binding to shapechanging to saves to feat acquisition..... but then you'd be done and a lot of abusive weirdness would be gone.

The cost is that you'd be unable to make BS puzzle monsters. Personally, I don't consider that a loss, but a benefit.

[Vnonymous]

It seems pretty clear what the consensus on this is. Is anyone else interested in rewriting a few of the monsters out of the srd to actually fit this criteria? It seems like it could be another nice tome project. Rewriting Team Monster seems like a bit of work, but not too much work. I'd say the hardest part would be figuring out exactly what cr you want things to be, as well as dealing with stuff like Dragons.