Warlock (Take 5, Version 12, Set 3, Section 6, Clause 2)

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Kaelik
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Warlock (Take 5, Version 12, Set 3, Section 6, Clause 2)

Post by Kaelik »

Invoker (Take 5, Version 12, Set 3, Section 6, Clause 2, AKA Blue Mage)

Invoker
"What is the sound of one Bigby's Hand clapping?"

Invokers are those who's meditations into the heart of themselves allow them to become one with a greater consciousness and tap the abilities of civilized peoples to manipulate the world. They are commonly known as Ascetics and Wisebeings of the worlds, often consulted as sages.

Due to their strange nature in connection with consciousness, those tainted by the blood of the wild "Anthropomorphics" are incapable of developing this discipline.

Invokers cast level appropriate spells like Wizards and Clerics, but at will. In return, they are much more limited in their spell availability, and use a different system for gauging ongoing spell effects. This system disadvantages duration attack spells, and leaves them better off using buffs or instantaneous spells. Wisdom is the governing stat of their spells.

Starting Age: As Monk
Starting Equipment: 2d4x10gp
Alignment: Temperance and Forbearance are qualities that Invokers usually possess, as such, they are more accepting of stringent laws than most, and are more likely to be lawful than chaotic.

Hit Die: d4
Base Attack Bonus: 1/2
Good Saving Throws: Will, Fort
Skill Points: 6+Int
Class Skills: Concentration, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot.

Level: Abilities:
1: Mindpool, Maintenance 1, Invoking, Sphere Acquisition
2: Tap the Totality of Existence, Tap the Mind
3: Domain Acquisition
4: Overcharge, Absence Makes the Heart Grow Stronger (food)
5: Sphere Acquisition
6: Metamagic Application
7: Acquisitory Nature, Absence Makes the Heart Grow Stronger (water)
8: Domain Acquisition
9: Extreme Overcharge
10: Specialist, Tactile Acquisition
11: Metamagic Application, Absence Makes the Heart Grow Stronger (Sleep)
12: Domain Acquisition
13: Maintenance 2
14: Open Mind
15:
16: Metamagic Application
17: Absence Makes the Heart Grow Stronger (Breath)
18:
19:
20: Ascension.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Invoker is proficient with no Weapons or Armor. And also with no weapons.

Mindpool (Ex): You get some space in your mind to fill spells with. You may store as many levels of spells in there as your Wisdom modifier. You may not have a spell of level higher than half your Invoker level (round up) in your pool.

Your pool at level 1 starts with any two spells of your choice from the Wizard/Druid/Cleric lists.

You may replace any existing space with a new spell or fill an empty space by:
1) Seeing it cast, and identifying it with a spellcraft check.
2) Making a DC 20+spell level check to identify the spell based on it's effects after it has been cast.
3) Having the spell explained to you by someone attempting to teach it to you, who has previously cast the spell.

1) and 2) replace your mindpool space immediately.
3) Takes 1 hour of conversation.

Some spells are not capable of being stored in a Mindpool due to their infinite nature being too much for a single mind to store in the form used by Invokers. A short list of some would be:

Wish/Miracle/Limited Wish/Any Polymorph like spells/Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation/Calling Magic of any Kind. Also, Owl's Insight, because the point it not break the RNG.

Maintenance (Ex): You have a number of maintenance slots equal to your Wisdom Modifer or your Invoker Level, whichever is lower.

Invoking (Iv): Invokations are like SLAs, and are invoked from your Mindpool. The action to invoke is the same as the action to cast the spell, and if this would provoke an AoO, it does so as an invokation. However, your Invokations have either an instantaneous duration, or, a "while maintained" duration.

If the invokation is not instantaneous, you must assign it to an empty maintenance slot, which it will occupy until you dismiss it as a free action.

The saving throw DC for any Invokation is 10+Wisdom modifer+1/2 Caster Level, and you invoke at CL = Invoker level.

Unlike SLAs, these do not benefit from meta SLA feats. An Invoker takes metamagic feats, as written by up by AlphaNerd (included below), and uses them.

Sphere Acquisition (Ex): You gain all the spells of a sphere that you are capable of storing in your mindpool. They do not take up any space. You also gain the Sphere ability. When you gain access to a higher level spell in your mindpool, you gain the new spell level of the sphere as well. If a Sphere has spells that can not be added to your Mindpool, negotiate a replacement with your DM or take a different Sphere.

Tap the Totality of Existence (Ex): An Invoker can add spells from all kinds of crazy lists, and they take up space in the Mindpool and can be learned as the lowest level version that the player knows about. Yes, you get to use Trapsmith and Bard lists. Even if you see a Wizard casting Wall of Stone as a 5th level spell, you can learn it as a 3rd level Invoker and it takes up 2 levels in your pool.

Also, you get to use Wisdom instead of Int for your spellcraft checks.

Tap the Mind (Ex): Invokers gain Telepathy 100ft.

Domain Acquisition (Ex): You add a Domains list of spells to your mindpool up to the limit you can include, and they take up no space. You also gain the Domain ability, with your Invoker level counting as your Cleric level. When you gain access to a new spell level, you gain the domain spell of that level as well. You can use Sinister's Domains if you want. I think. Check with your DM. If a Domain contains spells you may not cast, come up with replacements or don't pick that Domain.

Overcharge (Ex): An Invoker may burn one and only one maintenance slot in the action to cast a spell. If he does so, he gains a +5 bonus to CL of the spell (this affects the save DC as well). However, the Maintenance Slot is not usable for 10 rounds.

For some reason, this mysteriously does not work with Holy Word, or any spell that references Holy Word, or the Holy Word chart.

Absence Makes the Heart Grow Stronger (Ex): An Invoker can, through regular avoidance, learn to do without key components of mortal life, drawing sustenance from the spirit of consciousness itself. At level 4 this is represented by no need to eat. At level 7 he need no longer drink. At level 11, sleep. At level 17 Breath.

Metamagic Application (Su): An Invoker can choose one of his metamagic feats, the metamagic level + spell level of a feat modified by that feat may exceed his highest spell level by 1. But only if that feat is increasing the Metamagic level by at least one.

Acquisitory Nature (Ex): Invokers expand their Mindpool to Wisdom Modifier+Invoker level.

Extreme Overcharge (Ex): Invokers may burn two maintenance slots to power a spell. It gains the normal effects of Overcharge, and automatically ignores SR, and can penetrate or be used in an AMF. It also can penetrate barriers that block line of effect. If it affects a target and not an area, you must still be able to locate the target.

Specialist (Su): Invokers gain a +2 CL bonus to spells in their acquired domains or spheres.

Tactile Aqcuisition (Ex): Invokers gain SR 11+Level. This increases to 15+Level at level 15. Any spell or SLA that fails to affect the Invoker because of this SR may be added to the mindpool as normal for an identified spell.

Maintenance 2 (Ex): An Invoker now has Maintenance slots equal to the higher of his Wisdom Modifier or Invoker level.

Open Mind (Ex): An Invokers Mindpool is now equal to Wisdom Score + Character level.

Ascension (Ex): An Invoker becomes a being of pure consciousness, shedding his body. He is now incorporeal, and may shift between planes as the Greater Planeshift spell (self and gear only) at will as a Supernatural ability.

Metamagic feat rules:
[Metamagic] Feats allow you to increase the potency of the lower level spells you can cast. Each application of a metamagic feat increases the Metamagic Level (ML) by the amount listed. You may only apply metamagic to a spell such that the spell level plus the metamagic level is less than or equal to that of the highest level spell that you can cast. All metamagic effects affect the entire spell. Thus, if you cast a widened, empowered fireball, the empowering doesn't just apply the normal area of effect of the fireball, its effect is widened as well. Anything else is silly and obnoxious.

Preparation casters much choose which metamagic feats they wish to apply to spells when they prepare them. Spontaneous casters must choose which metamagic feats to apply when they cast them. Spontaneous spellcasters don't take longer to cast spells with metamagic feats. That's just silly.

Shaped Spell [Metamagic]

Enlarge: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Widen: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Sculpt: I'm not allowed to reproduce the text, but you may apply the feat Scuplt Spell to a spell for a ML of +2.


Strong Spell [Metamagic]

Empower: You may choose to increase the potency of your spells by increasing all numerical variable (random) effects by 50%. This increase the ML by +1.

Maximize: You may choose to set all random numerical variable (random) effects of a spell to their maximum values. This increases the ML by +2.


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]

Quicken: You may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a standard action as a swift action, or you may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a full round action as a standard action. The first use increases the ML by +4. The second by +2.

[Modified by Warlock creator]


Spell Timing [Metamagic]

Twin: You get two for the price of one. You may choose to have a spell go off twice immediately with the same everything. This increases the ML by +3.

Repeat: You get one now and one later for the price of one. A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your next round of actions. No matter where you are, the secondary spell originates from the same location and affects the same area as the primary spell. If the repeated spell designates a target, the secondary spell retargets the same target if the target is within 30 feet of its original position; otherwise the secondary spell fails to go off. This increases the ML by +2.

Delay: You can choose to have a spell go off anywhere from one to five rounds later. The spell must have a target of personal, touch, or an area effect. This increases the ML by +1


Ones that Invokers can't or don't use:

Duration Spell [Metamagic]

Extend: You may double the duration of a spell whose duration is not concentration, instantaneous, or permanent. This increases the ML by +1.

Persist: You may increase the duration of a spell one or two steps along the following chart. Each step increases the ML by +3. If the duration of the spell is not on the chart, you cannot improve it in this manner.
1round/level -> 1min/level -> 10min/level -> 1hr/level -> 24 hours


Subtle Spell [Metamagic]

Still: You may remove any somatic components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Silent: You may remove any verbal components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:04 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon »

Do the Mindpool or Maintenance slots increase from magic items or spells? And do the starting spells come from just the Wizard spell list, or from all the spell lists including domain spells or whatever?

Can they learn from scrolls, or if someone casts a spell from a wand?

I'm slightly curious about spells known. By my reckoning and not counting the sphere or domain, at level 7 you get three spells per level, at level 11 you get less than two per level, and at level 17 you only get two of level 9 and one of every other level.

Is it meant to have the spell variety decrease rapidly and most of the spells known come from the sphere and domain chosen?
Last edited by Parthenon on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

I was just trying to get the rough text up version this morning before going to work, mostly so that other people could do the work of figuring out how many spells one has known in general and stuff, and provide comments on the current balance.

Quick version goes like this:

1) Level 1: you have like 20 spells known, and they are mostly random, plus one sphere spell.

2) Level 3: You get access to level 2 spells, and you are now running about 10 level 2 spells, or 8 and 5 or whatever. +2 level 1 Domain, 2 level 1 Sphere.

3) Level 5: You have a Wis score of 23, and so you have 7 level 3s and a 2, and 3 1s, 3 2s, 3 3s from sphere/Domain.

4) Level 7: You now have Wis score of 25, for mindpool of 33, or 8 4s and a 1. 3 1s 2s 3s 4s.

5) Level 10: Wis of 31, Mindpool of 41. That's 8 5s, 1 1. +Sphere/Domain

6) Level 13: Wisdom of 33, Mindpool of 57, or 8 7s 1 5. +4 of each.

7) Level 17: Wisdom of 35, Mindpool of 64, or 7 9s and 1 1. +4 each.
So as you can see, outside of level 1-2, it generally stays in the 6-10 of your highest level, range. Dipping a bit low at levels before your mind pool expands.

The idea is though, because Spheres provide attack spells, that a lot of the time, you are going to want to spread that out in lower levels for utility and buffs, since you should be able to maintain more spells than that, at higher levels.

Maintains:
Level 1: 5.
Level 5: 6
Level 8: 12
Level 11: 15
Level 14: 22
Level 17: 24
As to your questions:

Starting spells are any list, IE any level 1 spell in the PHB. But not in the SPC.

If a spell is cast from a scroll, they can identify it, they can't decipher it from a scroll just by seeing the scroll though. Wand, same deal.

EDIT: Rereading, I see that you didn't realize that a level 10 Warlock doesn't have to waste any mindspace on level 1 spells if he doesn't want to. He can use those spaces only for level 5 spells if he wants.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

I can appreciate that we are all kind of tapped out on warlock classes now, but if I change the name to Blue Mage could someone give me something?

"This is unbalanced because X."

"This is a shitty mechanic because X."

"This is boring."

"Here's how you can make the class better:"

Would be really great.
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Post by IgnatiusDrake »

First off, let me say I really like this idea. It's a cool way to handle casting without using the spell level system already in place. That said, there are two things that concern me:

1. Dumpster Diving: I think you should have to see it used by the casting class at whose spell level you intend to learn it. If the only time you've seen wall of stone cast was with all the power of a wizard's 5th level spell slot, it doesn't follow that you'd know how to do it with a mere 2nd level spell slot just because somewhere in the multiverse, there exists some character that does.

2. Multiclassing : How does this class interact with prestige classes that advance spellcasting? Obviously, something as cheap as Practiced Spellcaster or +1 CL Ioun Stones shouldn't increase your highest level spells, but some prestige classes might compliment the flavor of this class well.

My solution to number 1 is obvious, just require that you see it cast at the level you intend to learn it. My solution to number 2 is that you qualify for and gain advancement from classes that require "able to cast Xth level spells," but not if they require arcane or divine spells (kind of like the shadowcaster from Tome of Magic).

As far as what this would advance, I'm not 100% sure, but I think the best solution is to advance mindspace and effective warlock level for highest spell level known, while not advancing maintenance slots.

Maintenance slots brings me to another bit of skepticism: It makes sense to require some sort of cap on active spell levels when your casting is unlimited, and I think you have about the right number set. However, there are special case spells that aren't adequately covered. For instance, having all your melee attacks resolves as touch attacks is clearly out of line with a 3rd level character.

So, what if we limited the active spell slots to those spells with durations of 1r/CL or longer? That seems like it would cut out the most unfortunate offender (wraithstrike).

Just a few thoughts.
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Post by Kaelik »

IgnatiusDrake wrote:1. Dumpster Diving: I think you should have to see it used by the casting class at whose spell level you intend to learn it. If the only time you've seen wall of stone cast was with all the power of a wizard's 5th level spell slot, it doesn't follow that you'd know how to do it with a mere 2nd level spell slot just because somewhere in the multiverse, there exists some character that does.
This is just going to have to be put down to a difference of desire. I want this class to be able to dumpster dive off other lists.

There are three ways to handle the existence of Wall of Stone as a level 2 spell:

1) Declare that it is always the highest level, IE planeshift is level 7, suck a dick.

2) Declare that it is the level that it was cast when you learned it.

3) Declare that it is always the lowest level.

One fails because that's not what I want, and it's shitty.

Two fails because you just add a Divination tax to spells (Everyone learns Divination in order to ask were a X is. And that's just a dumb tax if you are going to let them cast it at second level anyways.)

Three is just the non tax version of two, and that's what I want. Solving the problem of the Trapsmith list is the explicit purpose of that class feature, and I didn't solve it the way I did because I'm stupid.
IgnatiusDrake wrote:2. Multiclassing : How does this class interact with prestige classes that advance spellcasting? Obviously, something as cheap as Practiced Spellcaster or +1 CL Ioun Stones shouldn't increase your highest level spells, but some prestige classes might compliment the flavor of this class well.
Short and long answer, it doesn't. As it stands it can't cast spells at all, only invoke, which is not mentioned in any PrC. So it can't be used with existing PrCs, and I'm fine with that.
IgnatiusDrake wrote:Maintenance slots brings me to another bit of skepticism: It makes sense to require some sort of cap on active spell levels when your casting is unlimited, and I think you have about the right number set. However, there are special case spells that aren't adequately covered. For instance, having all your melee attacks resolves as touch attacks is clearly out of line with a 3rd level character.

So, what if we limited the active spell slots to those spells with durations of 1r/CL or longer? That seems like it would cut out the most unfortunate offender (wraithstrike).
Resolving all your attacks as touch attacks is clearly in line with a 3rd level character. Especially one with only +1 Bab who needs Wisdom, and is a caster.

A comparable option is just using Combust every round.
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Post by IgnatiusDrake »

Ok, I have a quick question about the math for highest spell level access. In the invokation entry, you say the highest level can not exceed
0.5*(class level -1)
This gives access to 2nd level spells at 5th, and 9th level spells at 19th.

But, in your breakdown in the third post in this thread, you seem to say they get access to 2nd level spells at 3rd and 9th level spells at 17.

Did you mean it to gain access at the same levels a wizard would? In that case, I would adjust the formula to
0.5*(class level), round up

This would put it on track with what you said their spell level break down should be.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Yeah, I was trying two different ways of writing that part, and accidentally left half of each one in there.
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Post by Wulf »

Looking at the mindspace variant ,after visiting another thread (Deep Impact).

I dont really see a limit in how much it can cast per day/encounter/minutes. Does the warlock have a limit, or can he continous cast a spell that is part of his mindspace?
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Post by Kaelik »

If it's a spell with an instantaneous duration, he can cast it over and over as many times as he wants.

If it's a duration, it requires maintenance until he dismisses it.
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Post by Wulf »

It seems rather unbalanced to me, but I am speaking from normal D&D perspective, and as a normal player.

As I can see it, we have a sorcerer/wizard combi with an "unlimited" spell list that can cross over to and mix arcane, divine and any other spellpower sources, unlimited casting of its spells and unlimited durations for a number of spells. And not a single advantage/ability hinders or limits other abilities to force choices.

Its free spam of the best spells for unlimited rounds and if you sacrifice some slots, you get +4 on your DC's as a bonus. Psionic with their power points offer more choice in play then this class, despite the nova potential of psionics. This class has no nova potential, it is a nova.

Now, perhaps the spell list is not unlimited, but "limited" to its mind space, so it becomes an unlimited-casting sorcerer instead of wizard. Still, with spells like Miracle, Wish and Shadow conjurations that mimic or instigate other spells, not many original spells are needed anyway.
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Post by Kaelik »

Wulf wrote:It seems rather unbalanced to me, but I am speaking from normal D&D perspective, and as a normal player.

As I can see it, we have a sorcerer/wizard combi with an "unlimited" spell list that can cross over to and mix arcane, divine and any other spellpower sources, unlimited casting of its spells and unlimited durations for a number of spells. And not a single advantage/ability hinders or limits other abilities to force choices.
Well, it's limited to maintenance slots, so it has to spend slots to keep spells active.

Because of this, many debuffs are not as useful.

It has limited spells known that keep it to a bare minimum.

Yes, it can totally cast Finger of Death every round. That's not broken. Not even a little bit.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

It's like a different type of Thaumaturge (what used to be Frank/Sujlin's Sorcerer idea). The class features are just different takes on the same sort of idea.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Judging__Eagle wrote:It's like a different type of Thaumaturge (what used to be Frank/Sujlin's Sorcerer idea). The class features are just different takes on the same sort of idea.
Um... No?

The Sulin Sorc has a whole lot of spells known and a very limited spells per day.

This class has a very limited set of spells known, and infinite spells per day.

Those are like, the exact opposite of each other.
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Post by Parthenon »

Thinking about it, the buffs are crazy. Take for example a level 8 Warlock. They have a mindspace of around 10 and as such can have 9 Persistent buffs and still cast infinite instantaneous spells. A divine metamagic Cleric would need around 60 turn undead attempts to match it. So they're better Cleric Archers than Clerics since they don't need to spend resources to do so and also get Wraithstrike and Druid buffs.

How is this not broken? I'm just looking for some reasoning here as to why they get to apply a +6 metamagic feat for free while being allowed to dumpster dive for all the one round or 1rnd/lvl awesome buffs from all the spell lists.
Last edited by Parthenon on Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

Parthenon wrote:Thinking about it, the buffs are crazy. Take for example a level 8 Warlock. They have a mindspace of around 10 and as such can have 9 Persistent buffs and still cast infinite instantaneous spells. A divine metamagic Cleric would need around 60 turn undead attempts to match it. So they're better Cleric Archers than Clerics since they don't need to spend resources to do so and also get Wraithstrike and Druid buffs.

How is this not broken? I'm just looking for some reasoning here as to why they get to apply a +6 metamagic feat for free while being allowed to dumpster dive for all the one round or 1rnd/lvl awesome buffs from all the spell lists.
1) A Cleric Archer would get polymorph and that alone is worth more than any six buffs.

2) DMM Clerics do have 60 or more turn undead attempts.

3) Clerics can still use 10 minute per level and 1 hour per level buffs in addition to Persisted ones, such as GMW which on it's own adds as much AB and damage as most other spells that increase those qualities.

A Warlock could use GMW, but it actually competes with all other buffs, instead of being a bonus.

4) Yes, the class can deal with buffs well. A great level 3 use of a slot is Haste to everyone all the time. But that's the point. It's better at buffing than other casters, except where other casters are the best (hour per level/24 hour spells). Thus it brings something different to the table.

The ability to use Finger of Death at will at level 13 is merely a way to give them level appropriate attacks too, since they basically aren't going to be using things like Ray of Stunning, or Brilliant whatever, or Acid Fog.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Parthenon »

The problem isn't that Cleric Archers can do the same, its that the Warlock doesn't need to spend any feats or money doing so.

At level 8 they have around 30 spell levels, so can spend half to two thirds of their allotment on buffs rather than utility or attack spells. Thats all the cost they have. Whereas a DMM Cleric would probably be spending a good deal of their wealth, all their feats, and choosing quite poor domains to do the same.

I mean, the difference between a level 3 Warlock and a level 3 Cloistered Cleric is that the Warlock gets the benefit of not having alignment or roleplaying limitations, can use all spell lists, they can have much more spells available at any time, have a lot better staying power, and get free Persistent spells. Whereas the benefits of the Cloistered Cleric is that they get twice as many domains, get free access to spells from splatbooks and can turn undead. Oh, and be a bit better at skills.

The Warlock beats the Cleric Archer at his own game substantially with no real cost.
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Post by Kaelik »

Parthenon wrote:The problem isn't that Cleric Archers can do the same, its that the Warlock doesn't need to spend any feats or money doing so.

At level 8 they have around 30 spell levels, so can spend half to two thirds of their allotment on buffs rather than utility or attack spells. Thats all the cost they have. Whereas a DMM Cleric would probably be spending a good deal of their wealth, all their feats, and choosing quite poor domains to do the same.
At level 8, the Warlock has about 8 spells, and one domain and two spheres.

If they find a bitchin domain full of nothing but awesome buffs at levels 1-4, they still have 8 attack spells, most of which aren't level appropriate, and 12 buffs if they have no utility whatsoever at all.

They can then toss any 9 of those buffs up at once.

Meanwhile, a Cleric can toss up 9 buffs easy at that level Persisted, including the same buffs, and make one of them Polymorph, and Also have GMW and MV on the side, and some other shit.

And the most bitchy stupid dishonest part of your argument, besides having no idea what a cleric build actually looks like, or pretending that Clerics can't PrC for free shit, is that at level 7, The Cleric was exactly the fucking same, and the Warlock had only 6 buffs.

And unlike the Cleric, the Warlock would have to give up both number of persisted buffs and spells known for the ability even have a Str score that's decent.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Parthenon »

What? What are you talking about? How the fuck can a level 7 Cleric have 63 turn attempts?

Obviously, I must be being retarded and/or lying, but at level 8 you can only afford three Nightsticks. With Extra Turning, a Charisma of +2 and both a domain giving more attempts and a PrC giving more attempts they could only really have about 30 turn attempts. Thats three or four persistent spells. I'm going to temporarily assume I'm an idiot with no idea of the rules and you can get another 20 turn attempts at no monetary cost with no feat or domain investment. Thats still only 45-50 attempts. How is that "nine buffs easy at that level"? At the least it would be a huge investment in character resources and just about all their money.

Whereas at level 3 the Warlock can have persistent Wraithstrike and two more persistent buffs, actually easily rather than hyperbole easily. They are a melee Cleric Archer at fucking level 3. Tell me how thats not bullshit.

But even ignoring persistent spells and the cleric archer, they beat the cleric in terms of actual spell versatility, especially at low levels. Lets go back to level 5 since thats where they start to have to use more and more of their mindpool for higher level slots. At this level while adventuring the cleric can choose between four level 3 spells including spontaneous cures/inflicts. Whereas the Warlock has access to about six spells of every level including spheres and the domain. While adventuring the Warlock has half again as many options each turn as the Cleric. Or compared to the Wizard they have twice as many level 3 options. And since they don't run out their choices don't decrease over the fight or day.

At every level past 5 the Warlock has equal or more spell choices per turn than any other caster. And they never run out of spells. In what way are they not the best caster?
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Post by ubernoob »

The self buffing is a bit too strong. Just don't increase the maintenance pool from what it starts at (stat mod) and you're still about on par with a self buffing incantatrix (3+mod persisted buffs) with greater access to spell lists which evens out with the extra three buffs and lack of using any list for anything ever.

Either that, or just make maintenance not work on anything shorter than min/level for buffs.
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Post by Kaelik »

Parthenon wrote:Obviously, I must be being retarded and/or lying, but at level 8 you can only afford three Nightsticks. With Extra Turning, a Charisma of +2 and both a domain giving more attempts and a PrC giving more attempts they could only really have about 30 turn attempts. Thats three or four persistent spells. I'm going to temporarily assume I'm an idiot with no idea of the rules and you can get another 20 turn attempts at no monetary cost with no feat or domain investment. Thats still only 45-50 attempts. How is that "nine buffs easy at that level"? At the least it would be a huge investment in character resources and just about all their money.
Extra Turning is the best feat you can take. Extra Turning grants 4 attempts to each of your turn sources, including domains. Suck my left nut.
Parthenon wrote:Whereas at level 3 the Warlock can have persistent Wraithstrike and two more persistent buffs, actually easily rather than hyperbole easily. They are a melee Cleric Archer at fucking level 3. Tell me how thats not bullshit.
So fucking what? A level 3 Barbarian attacks at +10-+12, and does 2d6+12 damage. And that's assuming he doesn't have any feats at all.

Your badass Wraithstriking Warlock makes touch attacks at +6-8 for 2d6+8 damage when fully buffed.

I don't even fucking care, especially when you could be using some of those spells to buff the Barbarian (where they add just as much or more damage) and then be using you actions to use Combust every round for 3d8 damage.

And Combust is not even close to your best use of actions.
Parthenon wrote:But even ignoring persistent spells and the cleric archer, they beat the cleric in terms of actual spell versatility, especially at low levels. Lets go back to level 5 since thats where they start to have to use more and more of their mindpool for higher level slots. At this level while adventuring the cleric can choose between four level 3 spells including spontaneous cures/inflicts. Whereas the Warlock has access to about six spells of every level including spheres and the domain. While adventuring the Warlock has half again as many options each turn as the Cleric. Or compared to the Wizard they have twice as many level 3 options. And since they don't run out their choices don't decrease over the fight or day.

At every level past 5 the Warlock has equal or more spell choices per turn than any other caster. And they never run out of spells. In what way are they not the best caster?
Do you smoke crack? They don't have more options, you just can't read.

A level 11 non specialiszed Wizard who doesn't PrC has 3 level 6 spells per day, 4 level 5 spells, 5 level 4 spells, and more stuff.

A Warlock at level 11 who for whatever reason just doesn't have all highest level spells and tries to match the Wizard has 3 level six spells, four level 5 spells, and that's it, because now he's spent all his mindpool.

And since a good portion of those are going to be always on buffs, that reduces options even further.
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Post by Kaelik »

ubernoob wrote:The self buffing is a bit too strong. Just don't increase the maintenance pool from what it starts at (stat mod) and you're still about on par with a self buffing incantatrix (3+mod persisted buffs) with greater access to spell lists which evens out with the extra three buffs and lack of using any list for anything ever.

Either that, or just make maintenance not work on anything shorter than min/level for buffs.
He's supposed to have more spells active at any time than the Incantatrix has Persisted, because otherwise, he's a chump.

He can't persist polymorph, or even cast it.

He also has to use up maintenance slots to keep active spells with hour per level durations, like for example:

GMW
MV
Superior Resistance.
Heart of X
Energy Immunity Y
Mindblank
Elemental Body
Anticipate Teleportion

Other good spells I am forgetting.

And furthermore, when it comes down to game time, he uses many spells at greatly reduced effectiveness.

EBT? Not so great when it costs Maintenance.
Glitterdust? Web? Entangle? Color Spray? Stinking Cloud? Solid Fog? Acid Fog? Ray of Stun? ect?

If he has as many buffs active as an Incantatrix has Persisted, then he is much much worse. Because an Incantatrix has many non Persisted buffs, and some of the best combat spells he casts will either be better than a Warlocks, or the Warlock will lose a buff to cast the spell.
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Post by ubernoob »

Incantatrix don't get as wide an array of buffs. They basically get wizard list+whatever they can con their DM into with runestaffs+UMD (limited wish doesn't come into play until level 13, and even then isn't quite as good as the warlock mechanic). The wizard only gets wizard buffs. The warlock gets cleric/druid/your mom buffs. Since the warlock gets BETTER spells, he should not be able to stack as many of them.

Plus, incantatrixes are game breakers anyways. If you are even remotely close in power to a self buffing incantatrix, you're too powerful.
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Post by Kaelik »

ubernoob wrote:Incantatrix don't get as wide an array of buffs. They basically get wizard list+whatever they can con their DM into with runestaffs+UMD (limited wish doesn't come into play until level 13, and even then isn't quite as good as the warlock mechanic). The wizard only gets wizard buffs. The warlock gets cleric/druid/your mom buffs. Since the warlock gets BETTER spells, he should not be able to stack as many of them.
WTF is this shit about Druid and Cleric buffs? Everyone is making a big damn deal for no fucking reason.

1) Wizards get everything off of every list anyway. They can just write a scroll of X.

2) Wizards can get access to any good spells of other lists they want.

3) The only thing that other lists do better than Wizards at all ever even a little bit is be a fighter, and I don't care if you try to be a fighter, because you have to tear up your Wisdom to get stats.

4) No You! The Incantatrix gets better buffs, because one of those buffs is Alter Self into Polymorph into Shapechange.
ubernoob wrote:Plus, incantatrixes are game breakers anyways. If you are even remotely close in power to a self buffing incantatrix, you're too powerful.
The Incantatrix is a fucker because he has a level inappropriate offense, and more and better buffing than this class.

This class has a level appropriate offense, and less buffing without any polymorphing.
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Post by Parthenon »

Stop. Really, stop. When you start talking about dishonesty please take a good look at yourself.

Lets count the valid turning attempts of a level 8 Cleric shall we? Now, the text of Divine Metamagic states that "... you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead ...". So, the only valid turning attempts are from Turn Undead, not Turn Lycanthropes or Rebuke Air elementals or whatever bullshit turn attempts you have from domains.

So, lets say that somehow he gets turn undead and greater turn undead, probably from radiant servant of pelor, as well as charisma of 14. He has 9 Normal turning attempts, and 9 Greater turnng attempts, for a total of 18 turn attempts. He also has spent 78% of his wealth on Nightsticks getting another 12 turns. Thats, let me, see... 18, plus 12, is only 30. Somehow I'm missing another 33 turn attempts. But wait a moment. Lets wave our hands in the air and pretend that nightsticks give four turn attempts to all forms of turning. Thats another 12 valid attempts. But it's still only 42 turns.

Somehow you've made up twenty turn attempts out of fucking nowhere, haven't bothered backing this up from anywhere, and have stated that this is "easy".

What the fuck Kaelik? What the fuck?

And then you ignore the actual rules you wrote down yourself. A level 11 non-specialised wizard gets one level 6 spell per day as standard. To get the two more you refer to they'd need an intelligence of 30. Hmmm... somehow I get the feeling thats not going to fucking happen.

But lets ignore rules and logic and assume thats the case. They'd still only have three highest level spell options. The Warlock gets that just from their domain and spheres, let alone their actual mindpool. They can have more spell choice just by having one level 6 spell known. By having two of each level they beat specialised wizards and if they choose to they can beat hyper-specialised wizards.

I quote the relevant sections here:
Kaelik wrote:Sphere Acquisition (Ex): You gain all the spells of a sphere that you are capable of storing in your mindpool. They do not take up any space. You also gain the Sphere ability. When you gain access to a higher level spell in your mindpool, you gain the new spell level of the sphere as well.

Domain Acquisition (Ex): You add a Domains list of spells to your mindpool up to the limit you can include, and they take up no space. You also gain the Domain ability, with your Warlock level counting as your Cleric level. When you gain access to a new spell level, you gain the domain spell of that level as well. You can use Sinister's Domains if you want. I think. Check with your DM.
Since either you don't understand what you've written or you've forgotten (or lying, but I'll be nice and assume you aren't) I'll remind you. This means that as soon as you reach level 11 you get three spells known for free.

This is more than the Wizard gets for free at that level.
Your figures of spells known ignore the very domains and spheres you give them, hiding the real numbers and being intellectually dishonest in ways I have only accidentally or mistakenly been.

I agree that you're right about some things- long term buffs are a lot less effective for them and short duration debuffs aren't as good. As well as the fact that I over exaggerated how effective Wraithstrike is. But that doesn't change the fact that the class is still too good. If this is comparable to an Incantrix without using up feats, skill points or taking prestige classes then its too good.

But a lot of DMs won't allow divine metamagic at all, or multiple nightsticks, or incantrixes, or wizards getting any spells they want, or... Your balance point is way above the tomes. If thats deliberately the case then state so above the class but otherwise stop lying and pretending that this is balanced to the normal standards of classes.
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