[Tome] Lance of Heaven and Earth

koz · Post by **koz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:36 pm

This time, the blame must be placed squarely on Avoraciopoctules.

Lance of Heaven and Earth [Combat]

You stab people in the face with a large length of wood grasped firmly in your hands.

This is a [Combat] feat that scales to your BAB.

+0: You may use any lance, as well as any weapon with 'staff' or 'spear' in its name in one hand. Additionally, whenever you throw one of these weapons, it automatically returns to your hand after the throw is resolved.

+1: Opponents entering an area you threaten provoke AOOs from you. Additionally, every time you hit with an AOO, your opponent must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Strength modifier) or be unable to move until their next turn.

+6: As a standard action, you can throw your spear, which transforms into lightning as it flies. This creates a 120ft long, 5ft wide line. Anyone under the line is dealt 1d6 electricity damage per character level, with a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Strength modifier) for half damage. Additionally, each individual that fails their Reflex save must make a further Fortitude save at the same DC or become dazed for 1 round.

+11: Your reach with the lance, as well as any weapon with 'staff' or 'spear' in its name, increases by 5ft. Additionally, any attacks you make with such weapons automatically push your opponents 5ft if they hit. You can choose to follow the opponent if you choose.

+16: As a standard action, you can drive a lance, or any weapon with 'staff' or 'spear' in its name, into the ground, causing an effect identical to an earthquake spell. You are immune to its effects, and any DCs are calculated as 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Strength modifier.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:51 pm

Awesome. Thanks, it's always nice when someone else does some of your work for you.

Once you throw your spear, is it intended that you have to retrieve it if it isn't enchanted to come back?

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:00 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Awesome. Thanks, it's always nice when someone else does some of your work for you.

Once you throw your spear, is it intended that you have to retrieve it if it isn't enchanted to come back?

Yes. I'll just edit that in to make it clear.

Edit: I need to lern 2 reed. I meant no, the spear should auto-return regardless of whether it's enchanted to do so or not, and edited in that.

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:38 am

This is why I think Bonus Feat as a class feature is a good thing in Tome. Feats like this.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:06 am

It's also one of two reasons that Tome Fighters are often seen as the best martial class in the game.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:42 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:It's also one of two reasons that Tome Fighters are often seen as the best class in the game.

Fixed that for you.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:15 pm

Someone said it was "the best" class. I responded with the following.

No Hide as a class skill, no UMD as a class skill; 6 skill points per level, and you need to burn feats in order to not be str-based on your attacks. Also, no caster progression. In a level 14 game, you can manage to use caster level 9 scrolls (aka, 5th level spells); 6th level and higher spells aren't accessible until higher levels.

It's a "filler" class that you put on a character, and they become more win, as each level gives either 1-4 new abilities, or a class specific ability, plus doesn't burn your skills per level, and gives full BAB.

Making it the complete opposite of the 1-2 level 'dip' that PHB fighter was.

Sort of how Barbarian 4 or 5 are the only times that you ever leave the class; in most builds, you go straight Barb to get access to the higher level powers.

....

Apparently facts are now ideas, and observations without passed judgement are now opinions.

Also someone doesn't know the difference between ideas and facts.

Also, the facts used, weren't based on anything that was accurate. As in, you know, looking at things that were written down, and reading them. Then doing some mental math.

Ubernoob wrote: Holy fucking shit. You have skill points better than every class in the game except rogue and beguiler, save or lose all your actions more times per round than any caster can ever force with spells (at a higher DC to boot),
...

The difference between 4 and 6 skills a level is the difference between whether you get a 'side' skill or not. People who build skilled characters just max their Int. A base attribute mod of +5 at level 14 is.... pretty reasonable in a non-wish economy game. You can max between 7 and 11 skills if you have 2 to 6 skill points per level from your class. A base skill point amount of 2 per level doesn't even matter to the core abilities you'll pick up; you're always going to get:

-UMD
-Hide
-Spot
-Move Silently
-Listen

That's 5 skills. For the most part, every other skill you hardly care about for 80% of the time that you're playing, about 15% of the time, you can get some sort of 'fair warning'. You know, like 'your next mission is on the Elemental Plane of Fire', or 'Fight a White Dragon in its icy fortress' if you need something that your skills aren't covering.

You can spread the remaining points into knowledges, or get Search/Disable Device. Although honestly, Dispell Magic can temporarily de-activate a magic trap, and Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic, or just an adamantine weapon, can deactivate and non-magical trap.

The 'danger' of "more" skill points is that the character will pick up more flavour shit than anything else.

Seriously, people want to get stuff like Profession: Master Cartographer, Profession: Master Map maker, Profession: Master Groomsman; or Knowledge: (Delicious!), or stuff like a bunch of Knowledge skills or having non-trivial ranks in Craft. I've met the players who had such characters.

People are going to min max on everything if they min max. Giving them more points makes characters look less cookie cutter, and more organic has always been my experience. Punishing people who want to make organic characters is, like XP penalties, stupid. Skills are powerful, but can always be outperformed by something like a 1st, or 2nd level spell. Even at level 10+.

Foil Action is comparable to Blur the last time I read. Srsly, that was Frank's assessment. I guess constant Blur effects are pretty broken.

RoW Barbarians tend to act as if under a constant Stoneskin. RoW Fighters as if under Blur.

I guess that's a massive problem. Since, you know. Every class can probably get Blur if they really wanted when they're level 9.

Also, there's no 'DC' on Foil action. It's just a ranged touch attack. Starts at 30, and can reach out to 60, feet. It also only works on actions started within range of the character. So, you can charge in from 65' feet and not give a damn, and you know what? That's acceptable.

I can accept that a PC can stop a Hydra which has a max speed of 20 (walk, or swim) being 'stopped'; it's big and slow. I can also accept that a Creature with a speed of 35 or 40+ can charge such a character successfully, and only attacks might be deflected.

That was one of the original design goal for that ability. Something that stops stuff from happening, within a certain range. Either as a defense, or as an action interrupter.

I can't tell anyone to accept that, but that's what the class does.

Thoughts on stoneskin:

I only made the stoneskin realization today, but it's pretty much accurate. It's also a good gauge to know what a character with Stoneskin can, and cannot stand up to. Since I don't see many uses of Stoneskin, but people tend to play a Barbarian in 2 out of every 3 sessions that I run or play at; so I see the use like that a lot. It's informative on the capability of the spell.

This is why we can't take you seriously, JE. You seriously just said "I'm not equal to another class in their specialty" as if it's a bad thing. While being BETTER than another class's specialties (damage dealing, action denial)!

I never said that being 4 levels behind casters was a good thing or a bad thing. For some reason, you seem to think that it's a bad thing. I just threw down some numbers.

UMD:

At 14th level, the highest any character can UMD scrolls through just ranks is 5th level spells unless they are a focused Cha-based class. At which point they can pull off 6th, maybe 7th level spells. Or, you know, level appropriate spells. A Rogue1/Sorcerer X can use almost any spell holding items that are level appropriate; plus are a Spellcaster.

Level 14 modifiers:

+1 Cha mod min Acceptable Cha for UMD will give a +5 modifier

+2 Decipher script bonus
+2 Spellcraft bonus
+3 Competence Bonus [Circlet of Persuasion]
+17 Skill ranks

That's a +25 modifier min. You can get a +29 modifier pretty easy; and you can always use 10th caster level spell scrolls. Or, you know, 5th level spells. When you're level 14. You know, four levels lower than the entire party.

Less than Cohort spell casting in a character is less than cohort casting. It's neither good, nor bad. It's just a thing that a character has tacked onto their laundry list of powers that they gain as they level up.

That's actually, pretty unimpressive. The fact that such a thing is "broken" is retarded. Especially seeing how being able to cast like a cohort of Robin, while being Batman isn't that much different from being Batman with a few more gadgets than normal.

Getting the ability to use spells 2 spell levels lower than the Wizard or Cleric is.... well, it's how UMD works. Some characters can get it as a class skill, some don't get it as a class skill.

Damage:

RoW Fighters are not 'better' than RoW Barbarians for raw damage, nor do they beat RoW Samurai or Knights. Seriously, those classes deal boatloads and boatloads of damage; they all tend to leave the RoW fighter a bit behind, if not a lot behind.

A liberal interprentation of a Knight's ability can see someone playing either a flying TWF dart build, or a mounted archer, with two weapons or a lance at the lower levels. A d6 per level is pretty nice, if you don't have to stick around every time that you charge a target, that's also pretty good.

Of all of the martial classes in RoW, Fighter is the action denial class. It's not the DPS class, and really... it's hard to make it so. A Barbarian or Knight can just throw down 30d6 of damage a round at level 11 in melee, and that's without trying. If they try, it's as much as much as 60d6 in melee (TWF Barb); or 30d6 at range (Ranged Knight). The Samurai is a bit more Niche, and it's a group fighter.

Which... personally has always made me feel that Knight, and Samurai don't fit, and should be switched. Traditionally 'Knights' had to fight masses of weaker enemies (smelly, on fire, peasants); while Samurai tended to fight single enemies at a time. Just a personal bugbear of mine.

My thoughts on the class

Overall
They're not commandos, they're more like... hardcore spies

I think that really, it's more like a really solid rogue. With lower damage capabilities than rogues, or martial classes; and with the ability to mix and match between martial, and non-martial options.

Sort of how the Thief-Acrobat is a more 'skilled' Rogue; and the Assassin is a more 'murderous' Rogue. The RoW fighter is a 'more martial' Rogue.

Damage
Attack is the only other word you need to remember

Unless you pick up some carrier effects, your damage will always be pretty low based on the class itself. If you pick up feats that beef up damage, you can get almost the same damage per round as a Barbarian of your level. This will cost you at least 1, and as many as 3-5 feats. That's if you want damage alone from those feats. In a 20 level character; that's about 1/3 of your feats being spent on "dealing damage"; meaning less skill feats, and less combat option or survival feats. When a limited version of Blur is your broken class ability, going for more damage or more defenses is purely a personal choice.

Spellcasting
Uhm... I'm an adventurer. Why wouldn't I use all kinds of magic items?

It's spell casting ability is not an inherent class feature. You seriously lose or Delay the big "class features" of the class [combat feats], since you push your BaB back in order to dip Rogue. Having played from 4 to 6 on a character, you do notice when you aren't getting to a BaB breakpoint. Each breakpoint is a whole new plateau for a character, the same way that getting Fly and Deep Slumber is for a Wizard.

Some people like that UMD allows PCs to use spells 4 levels character lower than the adventure, but that's honestly not a part of the class. That's a part of how UMD functions in D&D.

If you don't like the fact that a character can get level + ranks in UMD; and finangle an +8 to +12 modifier on top of that; then you need to look at the skill itself, and how you want UMD to work.

Some people don't like UMD
Bitch. Please. The best Paladins and Clerics that work for Heironyous are mother-fucking rogues

Seriously, some people don't like the idea that a rogue can use magical devices. That's fine, but you have to be honest about it, and not get upset when people want to use the skill, as it is written in the PHB, the way that it is written in the PHB.

Once UMD is on the table, DMs should expect to see things that they might not have. At 20th level, it means that the Rogue is or has any or all of the following things active:
[MM Undead traits]
[Freedom of Movement]
[Energy Resistance: Everything (30)]
[Haste]
[Water Breathing]
[Fly]
[Stoneskin]
[Blur]
[Mirror Image]
[Invisibility]
[Improved Invisibility]
[Mindblank]
[Protection from Evil]
[A bunch of other trivial +numbers buffs].

Honestly... that's 20th level play, and stuff like Fly and Waterbreathing are 6 to 10 levels ago. Mindblank is expected; and stacking up on effects, from "mind-control negation" via Undead traits and Proc Evil; or "not getting hit/hurt" from Blur, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin aren't a huge deal. Especially not at a 20th level game.

Conclusion

Min max some other RoW characters, min max a rogue, and look at them all. The Barbarian, Samurai and Knight shred stuff from level 1 to level 20. They're defenses and special abilities and class flavour show up well before 5 levels even occur in the class. Meanwhile, the Fighter is sort of meh, with nothing really distinct about them for the first 5 or so levels. The class finally becoming more distinct from the other classes at higher levels like 7+. You can look at a Fighter, and at lower levels, you don't know that it's specifically a Fighter. While a Barbarian, Monk, Knight and Samurai are

I think that's something that I'll try to change in my attempt to rebuild the class. Trying to make the lower levels have the Fighter look different from the other classes. Feats, obviously, don't seem to cut it, but people are fine with in-class abilities that scale.

The rest of the class is pretty distinct from the other classes, it's the wizard of the Martial classes, the stated goal in the classes description. Some games, that's too much, other games it's not enough. Gauging when it's one or the other is difficult, since people have different opinions on what a fighter is, even when it's described as being like a wizard, but for fighting.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:22 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:No Hide as a class skill, no UMD as a class skill; 6 skill points per level, and you need to burn feats in order to not be str-based on your attacks. Also, no caster progression. In a level 14 game, you can manage to use caster level 9 scrolls (aka, 5th level spells); 6th level and higher spells aren't accessible until higher levels.

Holy fucking shit. You have skill points better than every class in the game except rogue and beguiler, save or lose all your actions more times per round than any caster can ever force with spells (at a higher DC to boot), AND you get to use scrolls of basically every buff off of every spell list you'll ever care about.

This is why we can't take you seriously, JE. You seriously just said "I'm not equal to another class in their specialty" as if it's a bad thing. While being BETTER than another class's specialties (damage dealing, action denial)!

Seriously, stop talking about the fighter class. You're only embarrassing yourself.

It's a "filler" class that you put on a character, and they become more win, as each level gives either 1-4 new abilities, or a class specific ability, plus doesn't burn your skills per level, and gives full BAB.

Yeah... this is patently false. Nothing is better than a scaling feat every other level + awesome class features (stacking reach boost always on? yes please!) in between.

Making it the complete opposite of the 1-2 level 'dip' that PHB fighter was.

Sort of how Barbarian 4 or 5 are the only times that you ever leave the class; in most builds, you go straight Barb to get access to the higher level powers.

I'm working on an other version of fighter. It's closer to the Dungenomicon monk, but has certain RoW fighter elements.

Wait, so you're going to make something even MORE ridiculous than RoW Fighter? I hope to god you know better than to post your penis extension class here because you'll get laughed off of TGD.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:02 pm

Since when are skills a specialty?

Skills are merely flavour, and "skill characters" is a failure of an idea. This has been discussed multiple times here.

Anyone that proscribes to the concept that "skills" are sacred should be taken out back and shot. Rogues are not "skill characters"; they are "precision fighters"; lung piercers, liver shankers and heart-slicers. Their 'skills' are just some filler material to give them some more options; and many DMs simply don't have traps in their dungeons since they waste time.

Just having a game where every PC has only their modifiers to worry about; and DCs of 15 all the way through (aka, the no skills game) does nothing to affect total game options. If anything, it increases the total options of all PCs.

Isn't a single level in rogue and then ranger, archivist, etc. the same as having all levels in rogue?

As for specialties. Damage dealing is something all characters need to do. No ifs ands or buts. If you cannot kill monsters, you are not a D&D character.

If you play a rogue, and can't deal damage, you're doing something wrong. A rogue should be able to outdamage a fighter, and every time that I did the math, the Rogue does, usually by 10-20% more damage. The fighter loses more max damage, but gains more consistent damage.

Personally, lolrandom is the most infuriating thing I can have for my character. I honestly don't care about the random shit when it comes to action resolution. D&D could be a game with no dice rolling at all, and I'd be happy. Instead, players compare their numbers against a goal number, and find out what the results are.

For action denial. Well... that's casters purview really. Arbitrarium walls, AoEs that stop actions; multi-target long range SoDs. Casters that can't do that, well, it just makes me shrug.

Yes, the fighter I'm working on is "more ridiculous". Just as ridiculous as every other level 12-20 class or 3-10 level PrC that I've started or written here. I'm sure it will be just as broken as them.

In any case, we play on very different principles Uber. I prefer my games to be like nothing I've ever seen ever before every session; and you prefer a lot more consistency in what the PCs can do, so that you know what's coming up next. We also play our games on different difficulty settings.

I actually... never tailor a dungeon to the PCs. It's either generated via a procedure, or based on a part of the setting that the PCs are interacting with.

One day it's a band of 20 Nightmare bandits that want one shiney per person, or you have to fight; other days it's several dozen fire giants, and a few hundred hobgoblins with ranged and siege weapons.

Then I watch and ref while the PCs try to solve the problems that they feel they need to fix, in the way that they feel that they can do so.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:05 pm

JE, do you realize that 100% of your posts in this thread have had nothing to do with the OP? Me telling you to shut the fuck up is perfectly in line because you're doing another one of your "JE talks about random shit that nobody fucking cares about" talks. You continuing to waste screen space is NOT acceptable. Be the bigger man and SHUT THE FUCK UP WHEN YOU ARE NOT ON TOPIC.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:43 am

You side track something, and now it's too much of a sidetrack? Seriously, make up your mind. If you really cared that much about "staying on topic" why bring it up later?

I'm just responding to material as it's posted in the thread. This is a "thread", and that's what is supposed to happen in them. Ideas, thoughts, and comments are strung along the thread. A discussion opener means just that, it's an opener, not a itinerary.

Seriously, pot, meet kettle. Nothing you posted is even related to the OP either.

I'm going to make some tea and get a pipe ready, I'll see about posting that fighter and we'll kibitz about it later Uber.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:41 am

JE's post was rather lolrandom, but I do agree that we need to ditch the idea of out of combat skill characters vs no skill characters.

I didn't catch anyone discussing that in the thread, tho.

-Crissa

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:08 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:You side track something, and now it's too much of a sidetrack? Seriously, make up your mind. If you really cared that much about "staying on topic" why bring it up later?

Mostly because someone requested the first post from me. Apparently there is at least one person out there that thinks I am the best person to tell you how retarded your ideas are.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:27 pm

I like the feat a lot. Wielding a spear and shield is something I've wanted to do in D&D for a while. Maybe I should try coming up with a more mundanely flavored one that just lets you use any hafted piercing weapon as any other hafted piercing weapon of the same size.

koz · Post by **koz** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:43 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I like the feat a lot. Wielding a spear and shield is something I've wanted to do in D&D for a while. Maybe I should try coming up with a more mundanely flavored one that just lets you use any hafted piercing weapon as any other hafted piercing weapon of the same size.

The problem with flavouring [Combat] feats mundanely is that once you hit the +11 or +16 abilities, nothing 'mundane' even comes close, unless you define lifting mountains or diverting rivers as 'mundane'. But hey, all the more power to you if you wanna try.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:56 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:I like the feat a lot. Wielding a spear and shield is something I've wanted to do in D&D for a while. Maybe I should try coming up with a more mundanely flavored one that just lets you use any hafted piercing weapon as any other hafted piercing weapon of the same size.
The problem with flavouring [Combat] feats mundanely is that once you hit the +11 or +16 abilities, nothing 'mundane' even comes close, unless you define lifting mountains or diverting rivers as 'mundane'. But hey, all the more power to you if you wanna try.

What, so a true strike auto crit or improved evasion isn't enough anymore?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:21 am

Edited my post on the assessment on the RoW fighter.

for the OP.... well, it's "powerful", but it's not quite D&D.

Levels 1-6 are where a PC seriously rides a horse, and shoots a bow most of the time for their transport and ranged attack needs.

They can't jump further than any olympic athlete, but are definitely able to go for the gold in many types of things, and achieve them.

A 6th level character is someone that can jst win an Olympic event, or a Noble Peace Prize, or become declared a War Criminal if they put their mind to it.

They can fight almost any normal member of their own race, and the level difference is enough that they can probably just kill them without worrying.

As soon as you hit level 7; you're seriously in Dr. Who, Star Trek and early stages of many Greek Hero-Myths. Thesus and the three bandits he kills. Hercules and the Nemean Lion. Odysseus and the Wooden Horse.

You can travel the planes, Teleport, and see really unusual effects.

Things that seem really odd, but the characters seem to be able to accomplish anyway.

When you get into level 10+ territory, you are creatures that can thwart the plans of actually powerful creatures, like a Pit Fiend or Zeus.

Face to face, you'll obviously lose, but you can trample down anything that shows up that's not an other adventurer, or a creature tailored to kill you.

The Hydra, Brass Vultures, etc. all got killed by Hercules. Yet, it was a poisoned robe that did him in. He seriously wrestled death, and only b/c of the DNS poison in Hydra blood that he shot at a centaur, and then the centaur tricked his wife into thinking that the 'taur's blood would be a powerful substance for keeping her demi-god husband faithful.

The amount of hoops needed to kill a level 10 PC is something along those lines.

If you throw a monster that's able to bypass one of their defenses; or is immune to one or some of their attacks; then the game changes.

PCs at level 10 and up are really only going to be challenged by something that's tailored to counter them; since most things will not counter lots of level 10 PCs.

As the game gets higher, finding things that endanger the PCs means needing more and more preparation on the NPCs part.

In any case, we want feats that are mundane, but useful at the lower levels; and downright supernatural at higher levels.

Lance of Heaven and Earth [Combat]

You stab people in the face with a large length of wood grasped firmly in your hands.

This is a [Combat] feat that scales to your BAB.

BaB: Benefit

+0: You always count as having your pole arms ready to receive a charge. You may use any hafted two handed weapon with one hand with no penalty if using a shield in the opposite hand.

+1: Creatures that enter your threatened spaces provoke an AoO. When you strike a creature with a weapon that can be set to receive a charge the creature may not make any movement aside from a 5-foot step in the next round.

+6: Your reach with the lance, as well as any weapon with 'staff' or 'spear' in its name, increases by 5ft. Additionally, any attacks you make with such weapons automatically push your opponents 5ft if they hit. You can choose to follow the opponent if you choose.

+11: Your spear strike acts as if your struck targets are the effect of one of several spells [Pick one and it cannot be changed without Retraining: Burning Hands, Lighting Bolt, Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Shocking Grasp, and other BS damage spells]. These spells have a caster level equal to the character's BaB, and have no maximum caster level. So, Burning hands is 11d4. The placement of any cones or lines must start on the originally attacked creature.

The saving throw for this ability is Charmisma based and uses the base forumla of 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha Modifier, and uses the spell's save type.

+16: As a swift action, you may strike every creature within your weapon's reach.

The returning weapon at level 1... doesn't happen in lvl 1 play. The action denial and reach ov level 11, is more appropriate to level 6 play, than level 11. The lighting bolt idea is awesome, but people should realize that they can use other options.

The Earthquake thing is cool, but you're not using your spear on people, you're attacking the ground. Just giving out 'attack everyone around you" works fine.

Any time that enough monsters are around a PC for such abilities to matter, the enemies usually aren't that big of a threat anyway. The ability just allows the PCs to grind a path through hordes of level 1 common skeleton that a necromancer is using, or block a an enemy force advancing on you by hitting them all with your spear/lance.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:50 pm

Hm, I think just switching out the damage type and/or area of effect on Sinister's +6 and putting it at your +11 would be a better idea than just letting people dumpster dive for good direct damage spells JE.

As in:

+11: You gain the ability to harness the powers of heaven and earth with your strikes. When you gain this ability, choose Fire, Cold, Acid, or Electricity. As a Standard action, you may either throw your spear in a 120ft by 5ft line or swing it in a 25ft radius. Anyone in the area of effect takes 1d6 damage per character level of the chosen element, with a Reflex save of (DC 10 + 1/2 Level + Strength mod) for half. Additionally, each person that failed their Reflex save must make a Fortitude save of the same DC or be set on fire/slowed/nauseated/dazed.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:51 pm

JE, you totally don't get it.

Level 11: A PC should have a chance between 30% and 70% of defeating an Elder Air Elemental. This means they need to be able to attack decently at range or be able to limit the elemental's mobility somehow. Get creative. If you fall below a 30% chance, that means the player is going to get up and go play Brawl. If you get above 70% it means every other player is going to get up and go play Brawl.

Remember kids, the DM's job is to keep people to getting up and playing brawl.

Level 14: A PC should have a chance between 30% and 70% of defeating an Astral Deva. This guy is almost a spellcaster, but with outsider goodies so is tough unless you're a pure RNG breaking damage machine with enough mobility to reach him (not actually too tough to achieve really).

Remember kids: Say no to Brawl when you design your homebrew. This means anything posted by JE is off limits until a more competent designer approves it.

Level 16: I don't need to tell you what a PC needs to defeat a planetar, do I?

Level 19: Old Gold Dragon. This guy has tons of hit points, great saves, good AC, and 11th level sorcerer casting as an addon. Tough challenge, but if you can find a no save action denial, you're good to go (kiting with a bow could also work if your ranged attack is on par with the breath weapon).

Level 20: Balor, duh.

Now, if we exceed 70% win rate on any of these guys SOMETHING IS WRONG.

Seriously, if you're going to ignore the Same Game Test (or the Brawl test because I hate encounters that have any PC unable to contribute) you shouldn't write up mechanics. At all. Ever. Yes, I'm specifically talking about you, JE.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:16 am

JE, über, just fuck already. Or take it to PM or something. It never ends with you two, you shit up every thread you're both in recently.

On topic, does my +11 ability seem alright?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:21 am

Mask_De_H wrote:JE, über, just fuck already. Or take it to PM or something. It never ends with you two, you shit up every thread you're both in recently.

On topic, does my +11 ability seem alright?

I thought the feat in the OP was just fine as is. Generally if people just ignore something on TGD there are two explanations:
1) Fine as is (this thread)
2) It just isn't interesting (in which case someone comes by and says something eventually).

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:27 pm

It should be noted that almost every class Frank and K wrote up exceed your arbitrarily derived 70% "cap".

Seriously. The Monk, Barbarian, Knight, Assassin, etc. have not much problems killing a monster of their CR on their own.

Some monsters may take more than a round to kill, but each such PC has very little trouble doing so.

The SAME game test is a litmus test for not sucking. With big problems showing up if a PC can't deal with at least 1/2 of the challenges on their own with their own class abilities.

I think that this fact is why you always seem to nerd rage when I continually write down what a lvl [whatever] character can bring to the table.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:38 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:It should be noted that almost every class Frank and K wrote up exceed your arbitrarily derived 70% "cap".

Seriously. The Monk, Barbarian, Knight, Assassin, etc. have not much problems killing a monster of their CR on their own.

Some monsters may take more than a round to kill, but each such PC has very little trouble doing so.

The SAME game test is a litmus test for not sucking. With big problems showing up if a PC can't deal with at least 1/2 of the challenges on their own with their own class abilities.

I think that this fact is why you always seem to nerd rage when I continually write down what a lvl [whatever] character can bring to the table.

I've run the SGT many times for different people to explain what balance against CR is. Tome fighter is literally the only class that routinely has a problem of being too high.

For Valor · Post by **For Valor** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:59 am

ubernoob wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:It should be noted that almost every class Frank and K wrote up exceed your arbitrarily derived 70% "cap".

Seriously. The Monk, Barbarian, Knight, Assassin, etc. have not much problems killing a monster of their CR on their own.

Some monsters may take more than a round to kill, but each such PC has very little trouble doing so.

The SAME game test is a litmus test for not sucking. With big problems showing up if a PC can't deal with at least 1/2 of the challenges on their own with their own class abilities.

I think that this fact is why you always seem to nerd rage when I continually write down what a lvl [whatever] character can bring to the table.
I've run the SGT many times for different people to explain what balance against CR is. Tome fighter is literally the only class that routinely has a problem of being too high.

er... isn't the Samurai ridiculously overpowered? I thought it was Kaelik or someone who said that the Tome Samurai has a ~100% winstreak against all encounters of its CR... or something.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:22 am

The Samurai wins combat until he runs out of Kiai uses. After that, he's got feats and few helpful things, but he isn't this anti-tank gun. Facing a Samurai who's just gotten his day started is not something you want to do.

The Gaming Den

[Tome] Lance of Heaven and Earth

[Tome] Lance of Heaven and Earth

Assessments on the RoW Fighter