Please don't complain about the number and level of the DCs.

[Crissa]

So apparently our party missed an important item in the closet of a room we searched.

"hahaha"
"nobody searched the pockets yet"
"You rolled kinda low searching the closet."
"So you saw the dresses and robes and didn't go any further to actually search *in* them."

So, wait, we were supposed to roll search on every item that turned up the last time we rolled search? Room > Closet > Dresses > Pockets...

What was the point of rolling, exactly?

-Crissa

[Josh_Kablack]

Well from here on each search everything.

"You find a sword"
"I search the sword"
"You find a ruby in the pommel"
"I search the ruby"
"You find that it glints in the dawn"
"I search the glint"
etc

[Crissa]

I was thinking, 'Whose dresses actually have pockets?' personally.

-Crissa

[Crissa]

> DM rolls 1d20+9 and gets 9 for a result of 18.
<OOC> DM says, "Sorry that should be a 20"
<OOC> DM says, "Sorry that should be a 21"
(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why should it be a twenty?"
<OOC> DM says, "Miss?"
<OOC> DM says, "Because I forgot a bonus."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why does he have so many?"
<OOC> Itzal says, "it hits"
<OOC> DM says, "Because he wanted to be an effective combatant."
> DM rolls 1d8+8 and gets 4 for a result of 12.
<OOC> DM says, "12 points"
<OOC> DM says, "Itzal it is your turn. "
(OOC) Crissa notes, "I don't think a +12 is really an appropriate 4th level challenge."
<OOC> Itzal says, "Move action recharge, strike"
> Itzal rolls 1d20+11 and gets 2 for a result of 13.
<OOC> Itzal says, "Fuck."
Avotas whispers, "and I had enough of Crissa for tonight. I will be reading a book and keep checking back now and then" to you and Itzal.
<OOC> DM says, "that will miss"
<OOC> DM says, "Crissa, you are done for tonight."
<OOC> DM says, "Come back Friday planning not to be like this."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "Planning... To what?"
<OOC> DM says, "Or don't come back."
<OOC> DM says, "Please leave for tonight crissa. "
<OOC> DM says, "Or I'll ask Avotas to eject you."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "No."
<OOC> DM says, "Avotas would you please eject crissa from the room so that I can run the game."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "You want to spend all your time arguing, you can."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "What am I interrupting? Your yelling at me?"
<OOC> DM says, "I'm putting you on ignore crissa. Good night."

I get the idea saying, "Itzal is going to have his ass handed to him if he has to fight two fighters at +12 and two level 2 mages and two more level 2 characters..." But probably not.

Apparently everything I say in the game is an attack upon the DM's playstyle.

Grr.

No, I didn't edit the previous conversation, either.

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

Sounds like your (former) DM is a grade-A, power-tripping, cheating asshole.
Fuck em'.

[Kaelik]

Uh...

Yes, of course everything you say is an attack on his playstyle. It should be. His playstyle is shit, and anyone even remotely insane should say things that attack his playstyle all the damn time.

[Josh_Kablack]

Even giving that guy the benefit of the doubt - it's quite clear that he does not want you in his game.

And you would have to be a glutton for punishment to stay in a game run by someone who doesn't want you there.

[Crissa]

I always wondered why people go all passive-aggressive when they want you to leave. 'You're done here' has been told me when I was fired at just about every job I was fired from.

Anyhow, the DM invited me. I don't really see what their problem is. I hadn't said anything for a half-hour. Any one of my questions could have been answered completely, negating the response. 'Why is it so high?' 'because this guy outclasses your fighter' would have been a sufficient answer. Anything just acknowledging that indeed that was a high challenge would have shut me up.

-Crissa

[Judging__Eagle]

shit dm, shit game, frustrating to deal with.

sorry that you had to deal with that Crissa, some people out there still really suck.

[Crissa]

Oh, I keep hoping for the story, it certainly isn't the combat.

Tonight I waited six hours doing nothing while they interrogated prisoners. Not that a Paladin couldn't, I dunno, question them, but yeah, I stood guard. There's an NPC and a PC with ~+20 Diplomacy each, so whatever.

Until someone in OOC claimed that, "they only count the severity of the crime, not the motive, that's why hate crime laws get thrown out of court!" To which I said, 'That's not true, that's how you tell the difference between...' and 'besides, we don't want to start an argument.' then as continued, 'I'm shutting up now.'

To which the DM said, 'You have your view and he has his, neither of you is more right than the other.'

I held my cool for awhile, but I still wasn't doing anything, and neither was the DM, so I said, politely, privately, that he-said she-said was a pet-peeve of mine. The DM just said lalala not listening. Twice.

Not listening? Why?

I waited a few more minutes until the six hour mark rolled around and said night and logged off.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Crissa.

Stop being retarded.

I sympathize with your pain, but hating what Bush did so much that you just abolish term limits and declare him king is not the correct solution.

The solution to an ocean of shittiness is to not swim in the ocean.

If you keep going back, that's your own fault at this point.

[MGuy]

Going to have to agree with Kaelik on this one. Try finding a new DM or a new group. As a person who prefers to DM myself I know that I can't stand just anyone at my table but I try to be as fair and balanced as I can, but from the way it seems that DM is doing his own thing.

[Judging__Eagle]

Seriously.... anyone here would run a better game than that, and getting in on Kaelik's RHoD game would get you more rp than that game obviously is not. People who can't hack the math, often can't hack the RP. Like... ever.

[koz]

Gotta agree with the other opinions here, Crissa. There is no need to game with people you don't like or that you don't feel give you a game that you enjoy.

[Crissa]

Crissa tickles the tips of the fox's ears.
DM giggles
Crissa says, "So, I was just asking the dragon question because I was wondering if it would be knowledge that red dragons usually not on team good."
DM murrs "Ahhh right."
Crissa says, "And if that would create perhaps a story conflict as Talin's new personality started to emphathize with Gaby."
Crissa says, "Something for him to roleplay."
DM murrs "Knowing the alignments of dragons would be the same difficulty as knowing that Talin' form isn't bound by them."
Crissa says, "Whats the common knowledge of dragons? That they're just not on team good?"
DM murrs "Common knowledge of dragons is that they're big flying lizards that you've never seen before (commonly)"
Crissa says, "And... They eat people? What?"
DM murrs "Dunno what they eat, maybe monsters?"
DM murrs "They're supposed to be really big"
Crissa says, "Dragons have low CR because we're supposed to know about their weaknesses."
Crissa says, "It'd be hard to imagine a human settlement that didn't know what a dragon was."
Crissa says, "It's a common icon, even."
DM murrs "Do you have knowledge arcana?"
Crissa says, "Tons of it."
DM murrs "Then roll it"
[OOC] Acorn rolls a d20 at +12 for 15 totaling 27 Knowledge: Arcana.
DM murrs "You know that true red dragons (natural born red dragons) that are very old tend to be evil, historically. You know that a half red dragon, or something like Talin has become, would have no particular inclination towards evil or good etc."
DM murrs "You're also aware that Talin and any red dragon would be immune to fire."
Crissa says, "There, I should know not only what the average adventurer does."
Crissa says, "And?"
Crissa would expect 'immune to fire' to be a DC 10 or maybe 15. How about 'where do they live' and whatnot?
DM murrs "Red dragons (true red dragons) live to be centuries old."
Crissa says, "That's probably true of all dragons."
DM murrs "Please don't start telling me what the DCs of things should be."
DM murrs "brb"
Crissa says, "Well, I was just hoping for something other than 'half dragons don't follow their dragon half in alignment' honestly. Dragons are like the most written about thing in core books. They have CRs that start two lower than their actual difficulty. Blahblahblah. I'm asking so I don't go blowing off my foot assuming something."
Talin says, "You shouldn't make judgments about someone based on their race. You shouldn't judge Talin because of a choice he made to accept a form that would better serve the interests of the party."
Crissa also gets pissy at info that happens to be... too easy. Like knowing dragon alignments (something rare) and half-dragons (even more rare?) at the same. If they're not more rare, then she's got another mis-assumption she needs to clear up.
Crissa says, "Who said I was making judgements?"
Talin says, "Your asking for all of this information SO you can make judgements. "
DM murrs "Right."
DM murrs "You want me to detail everything about red dragons so that you can make a presuposition in-character about Talin."
DM murrs "everyone else is gonna, you know, RP"
Crissa says, "You're making a presumption."
Crissa says, "No, you're not RPing. You're assuming."
Talin says, "Crissa, you did the same thing with the were-fox in our first D&D game. It ended up you attacking her ICly, and she leaving the muck shortly afterwards."
( Crissa says quietly, "So, I was just asking the dragon question because I was wondering if it would be knowledge that red dragons usually not on team good." )
Crissa says, "No I didn't."
DM murrs "So no I'm not presuming anything. YOu said it yourself."
Crissa says, "No, you're presuming. Nothing in that sentence said I was judging Talin."
DM murrs "So why do you suddenly want to know about red dragons?"
Crissa says, "You're being a total elitist ass right now. That because I don't somehow mind-meld with your idea of what should happen in RP, I've done something wrong."
Crissa says, "Because there's one in the party!"
Crissa says, "Did I not ask questions about animal-people in your world first?"
Crissa says, "I'm the one /not/ making assumptions."
Talin says, "I'm sorry. This is just not happening for me today. I had a pretty poor day IRL, and I really don't much feel like doing this tonight."
Crissa says, "When one doesn't make assumptions, they ask questions."
Talin has left.
DM has disconnected.

AUGH.

What did I do wrong?

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

AUGH.

What did I do wrong?

-Crissa

You continued to play with mouth-breathing fuckwits.
Seriously - unless you are trolling these guys, run screaming!

[MGuy]

IS there any real reason you are playing with them?

[mean_liar]

Your mistake in that conversation was trying to have one. You asked, the DM told you, "I'm a dick and your skills are useless", and then despite all evidence to the contrary you pressed on belligerently in the mistaken hope that somehow whining about someone being an ass would somehow convince a mildly hostile audience.

Best strategy: suck it up when the DM says, "I'm a dick", engage in conversation when they say, "No and here's a decent reason why", and in both cases be prepared to drop it. Or, not play with dicks.

[Rejakor]

Unfortunately, it IS the DM's game, most of the time. If they are an asshole, there's little you can do about it. Arguing with them doesn't help. You can generally influence them a bit if you remain on good terms with them.. i've actually made positive changes from that position, discussing things like CRs and whatnot, basically offering them tips in a non-threatening way... but arguing with a DM like that will really not work.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Basically, Crissa you did wrong what you have done wrong in the 10 years I've known you. You immediately assume a condescending and superior tone and start trying to tell people what to do, and they don't appreciate it. No one does. We've all been trying to tell you this for years and you won't listen to a word anyone else says. You probably are at this very moment quoting this post, splitting my quote into sections and responding to each sentence out of context, probably implying that I'm a racist or sexist or something to make people hate me (Note: When I realized almost everyone doesn't much care for me, I stopped caring about people talking shit about me. No point in losing sleep over people that wouldn't like me anyway if they knew what I was like.)

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Now for more in-depth critique:

First scenario: The DM was being smug, but it seems that you rolled too low on the search check to find whatever it was, and the DM was making flavor text and doing it poorly. I don't approve of the DM's tone and I would have have the object hidden a bit more convincingly, but it's obvious that you just failed the roll and if you had rolled higher you would have found it.

Second scenario: The DM forgot to add some sort of bonus into the roll. The DM didn't explain that well, but it's not really a mystery. The proper way to reply is "Ye gods! this foe is mightier than I expected!" The wrong way is "Why is the damage so high? Why is there bonuses" whywhywhywhywhy??????" You basically started acting like a petulant brat because you were losing. My ex wife did that crap ALL THE TIME and it drove me nuts, both in game and out of game. The DM needs some skill in spontaneously writing flavor text though. I would have said "There is some enchantment making the warriors strike true" or something like that. Unfortunately, sometimes you just need to accept that people don't use the words you'd like to hear.

the dragon thing: The DM told you what your lore roll meant. You need to accept that. If it's not what you want, tough shit. Grow some ovaries and deal that sometimes you don't get what you want.

[Psychic Robot]

How is the DM at fault here?

(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why should it be a twenty?"
<OOC> DM says, "Miss?"
(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why does he have so many?"
<OOC> DM says, "Because he wanted to be an effective combatant."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "I don't think a +12 is really an appropriate 4th level challenge."

Crissa says, "Dragons have low CR because we're supposed to know about their weaknesses."

Crissa would expect 'immune to fire' to be a DC 10 or maybe 15. How about 'where do they live' and whatnot?
DM murrs "Red dragons (true red dragons) live to be centuries old."
Crissa says, "That's probably true of all dragons."
DM murrs "Please don't start telling me what the DCs of things should be."
DM murrs "brb"
Crissa says, "Well, I was just hoping for something other than 'half dragons don't follow their dragon half in alignment' honestly. Dragons are like the most written about thing in core books. They have CRs that start two lower than their actual difficulty. Blahblahblah. I'm asking so I don't go blowing off my foot assuming something."

Crissa also gets pissy at info that happens to be... too easy. Like knowing dragon alignments (something rare) and half-dragons (even more rare?) at the same. If they're not more rare, then she's got another mis-assumption she needs to clear up.

I have a feeling that this meta-gaming and second-guessing had been going on the entire evening. Yeah, if I were a DM, I'd be getting sick of that shit really soon.

[violence in the media]

How is the DM at fault here?

(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why should it be a twenty?"
<OOC> DM says, "Miss?"
(OOC) Crissa notes, "Why does he have so many?"
<OOC> DM says, "Because he wanted to be an effective combatant."
(OOC) Crissa notes, "I don't think a +12 is really an appropriate 4th level challenge."

On the face of it, I don't see anything wrong with this beyond Crissa's last comment. Prior to that, it's just checking math as far as I'd be concerned. When I DM, I know that I'm human and occassionally forget things or that it's possible that I mis-added somehow, and I totally expect the players to react to numbers outside their expectation with, "Woah! Is that right? How'd he do that?" Then, they can speculate on stats or bonuses or whatever combination of circumstances might have comprised the awesome.

However, the point when a player says, "I don't think a +12 is really an appropriate 4th level challenge." Is where I gently tell them that's too bad, and they're welcome to their opinion, but that I'm rolling damage now and we're moving on. If they're being really dumb, I might even explain everything (Orc Hero, max strength, 4 levels of fighter, weapon focus and masterwork weapon) because I don't particularly care if the players can recite base monster stats frm heart.

As an aside, Crissa, do you have these problems in face-to-face games as well, or is it just the impersonal nature of the internet?

[RobbyPants]

So apparently our party missed an important item in the closet of a room we searched.

"hahaha"
"nobody searched the pockets yet"
"You rolled kinda low searching the closet."
"So you saw the dresses and robes and didn't go any further to actually search *in* them."

So, wait, we were supposed to roll search on every item that turned up the last time we rolled search? Room > Closet > Dresses > Pockets...

What was the point of rolling, exactly?

-Crissa

I know this is, like, six months old, but how does that DM feel about taking 20 on the Search check? If you have the time for it, it seems like that's the answer to not missing stuff like that.

Personally, as a DM, I don't have a problem with it, but that assumes the party has quite a bit of time to toss the entire room, looking for whatever, and assumes that the room is not trapped.

[For Valor]

Yay necro!

JSYK, the obvious solution is to troll them until you decide they're not fun to troll anymore. Play a Stupid Chaotic character... or something.