Riddle Me Not

[PhoneLobster]

So I have vague memories of a "Riddles Suck" thread from many years ago. But I can't find it. So here is a new one.

Interesting side note, do you know how many times people say "Riddle me this..." around here? Apparently people need to reign back on that one more than the "Bag of Cocks".

Now let me say this now, in big giant bold letters so people can learn it.

Riddles Suck

If you use a riddle, that the players must solve in your D&D game. You are almost certainly a very bad DM. Especially at that moment.

Indeed the "I enjoy giving riddles to my players" line should be on the "warning signs of a bad DM" list.

Riddle 1) I didn't come here to play tiddlywinks
Stopping your game of D&D and then requiring the players to beat you at tiddlywinks before you let them continue playing D&D is probably a bad thing.

Telling players to do the same with an archaic form of obscure and annoying humor/entertainment called a "riddle" is no different.

Now you can say "Hey I included riddles in the agreement on what we were going to play!". And I can say "Did you give the players a riddle free alternative to agree to?". And you can then say "Not really, sorry for misleading you there."

Because really, most people do NOT tend to agree to sit down and spend ANY portion of their free time asking and answering riddles. It is not a popular pass time.

And if you went to a group of gamers and said "Hey lets tell each other riddles instead of playing whatever game, for even five minutes they are going to groan and look at you like an idiot. At best they will try it for about 1 minute and then get annoyed/bored.

Riddle 2) Your players are stupid
They can't answer your god damn riddle. They will get it wrong. They will sit there grumbling about not being able to figure out your bullshit riddle. They will get angry with the one stubborn guy who thinks he can solve it and makes them waste time on it.

Even if one of them CAN solve it, most of them can't and they will be pissed about wasting time sitting there while he and the GM riddle wank each other for five or ten minutes they could have been playing D&D, you know, the game they actually agreed to.

Riddle 3) Your GM is stupid
Actually riddles, "good" ones, are really hard to write. Hell, they aren't even easy to find or recognize in the sea of really poorly written or inaccurately retold ones you will encounter if you go looking.

And your GM is almost certainly incapable of writing or even finding a good riddle. Any riddle he presents will fall into one of two categories.

1) "...Walks on three legs at sunset..."
It's one of very few famous riddles. It might actually be moderately "good" in that it does infact imply a single distinct answer, but that's pointless because one way or another someone at the table has heard the answer before and it turns into a game of "memory".

2) "...no for the last time it isn't fucking water vapor, the invisible acorns are meant to imply..."
The GM has failed at riddle writing and has presented a riddle that is vague and confusing. It may not be outright incorrect but it almost certainly implies multiple different answers or has a very poor line of reasoning to the intended answer. And that turns it into a game of "read the insane GM's mind".

Riddle 4) The characters are smarter than Riddles
Joe the dumb ass sat down with the intention of pretending to be a wizardly super genius. You have just now humiliated and frustrated him by having his wizard sit there struggling and be as unable to answer a stupid riddle as he is.

Joe also potentially gets to watch Sally the riddle memorizer who is pretending to be a Barbarian Bimbo answer the riddle and get all the "pretend to be smarter than Joe is" glory. And Sally gets to step all over her own character concept if she wants to push the party over the stupid hurdle.

Riddle 5) The players are too smart to want to play the riddle game
DM: And the ancient wooden door speaks, "YOU MAY ONLY PASS IF YOU RIDDLE ME THI..."
Player 1: I Fireball it to smithereens and walk through.
Player 2: I hit it with my axe.
Player 3: I teleport through the wall.
Player 4: I shape the wood into a smaller less annoying door inside the larger annoying door.
Player 5: I go back to the intersection and turn left instead.

The "correct" answer to most riddle encounters in a D&D game is to use your crazy powers to bypass the damn riddle encounter.

It's basically impossible to include a riddle that it makes any sense to actually try and answer short of the most abysmal railroading techniques. And those are abysmal railroading techniques.

Riddle 6) ...and the Riddler is annoying too
You know what? Fantasy characters and stories that go around asking riddles are pretentious, annoying and stupid.

No one likes your magic cluster fuck Riddle Leprechaun who keeps trapping the party in riddle dungeons with "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies" powers.

Riddle 7) Fictional people should hate riddles too
Riddles are, get this, a form of entertainment (sucky as that entertainment is). They are not a practical thing. They do not serve a practical purpose. It is incredibly hard to imagine any practical purpose for them to serve. Most commonly they are applied as a "secret password" scenario.

But in practice that makes no fucking sense.

Someone is going to ask "Why is the evil over lord this stupid?" when his dark sanctums inner demon gate sits there giving you hints about what it's secret password is.

The whole point of a secret password is that it is secret. If a riddle is correctly constructed and answerable at all, it isn't a secret.

A sensible evil overlord has a door that says "Password?" and the answer is "Rosebud".

A Cunning evil overlord has a door that says the whole "Walks on three legs at sunset" routine, but then sets off an alarm if anyone says anything other than "Rosebud".

Even a lame forgetful evil overlord who needs a hint has a secret door that says "Password, hint, its to do with flowers!" Because that at least in having no distinct singular answer is better security than proper riddle!

[Koumei]

And I thought I was the only person who hated riddles. Excellent.

Edit: also, isn't the universal password "Swordfish"?

[Kaelik]

I knew I wasn't. Because anyone sane hates fucking riddle games.

[User]

Riddle 4) The characters are smarter than Riddles
Joe the dumb ass sat down with the intention of pretending to be a wizardly super genius. You have just now humiliated and frustrated him by having his wizard sit there struggling and be as unable to answer a stupid riddle as he is.

Joe also potentially gets to watch Sally the riddle memorizer who is pretending to be a Barbarian Bimbo answer the riddle and get all the "pretend to be smarter than Joe is" glory. And Sally gets to step all over her own character concept if she wants to push the party over the stupid hurdle.

This is simply the classic social/mental skills dilemma, and there is no good answer to it. On one hand you want the game to support the fact that some characters are smarter and more socially adept than others, hence int/wis/cha. But on the other hand the players are rarely at the same level as their characters. There is no way to fix this. Dumb players will make dumb choices for their characters no matter how high their int is - they won't make good choices in game. And the only way to fix this is that whenever a choice is presented to the character they must make an int check. If they pass the DM tells the player what the smart thing to do is. If they fail they are forced into making a mistake. But this isn't roleplaying - it's not even fun. And if you don't do something like this then dumb players will have their characters make dumb choices, and socially inept ones will make their characters say stupid things, no matter how high their relevant stats are.

[PhoneLobster]

This is simply the classic social/mental skills dilemma, and there is no good answer to it.

Actually I dispute that there is no good answer to it, since I think "Abstraction" is a really good (and punchy one word) answer to it.

But regardless, in this specific circumstance there is an "easy" indeed REALLY easy answer to it.

Don't introduce riddles.

Sure we will always have to deal with Joe the dumbass's "genius wizard" character making bad tactical choices, falling for simple cons or failing to make smart decisions.

But we really don't need to rub riddles in his face because the negative rubbing in his face part is the only thing they do. They have no positive reason for existing in the game.

[PhoneLobster]

Edit: also, isn't the universal password "Swordfish"?

I went with "Rosebud" as the iconic enigmatic word that has distinct personal meaning to the evil overlord but is completely random and senseless to anyone else.

So sue me.

[RandomCasualty2]

While you should never make the game about something the PCs hate, I don't think a blanket "never use riddles" is good.

Yes, it's true, some PCs don't like them, but then, some do.

Some PCs also like Murder mysteries, and some don't.

Some PCs like combat, and some don't.

Some PCs hate talking in character and want social scenes to end with a single die roll. Some PCs want social scenes to last hours because they love to talk in character.

Different groups have different tastes. You have to tailor your game to the group. If people don't like solving riddles then by all means don't use them for that group. If your group doesn't want a combat heavy game because it bores them, then your game shouldn't' be combat heavy.

But don't immediately assume that because you don't like riddles or mysteries that nobody does. I've used riddles and puzzles in many of my gaming groups and on average the consensus is that people enjoyed solving them.

[Meikle641]

Plus fucking one, PL. I can get the point of a puzzle, but 7/10 times nobody can fucking figure it out, and we get stuck. Then we get told that rolling for it is "cheating".

Hilariously the dungeon we just did is puzzle based like the other temples in that world. Only, due to a planar breach, it was fucked up by being flooded. So we brute-forced our way through, mainly using a crowbar to open slab doors.

[virgil]

I've considered introducing riddles as optional 'easter eggs'. They're not required to overcome the actual plot; and if they were to be, there would be an obvious non-riddle solution (fight the monster, fly across the chasm, etc).

[Username17]

The difference between a riddle (which I agree is annoying) and a mystery (which is fucking awesome) is somewhat opaque to me. I think it's simply that in the case of a mystery you really can just keep collecting evidence while the werewolf keeps eating villagers until you eventually solve it. In the case of a riddle, you supposedly have everything you need right away, and that just makes it frustrating.

-Username17

[Meikle641]

I dig *puzzles*, since they're something I can conquer by out-thinking it or whatever. I'm known as the group Boy Scout, since I always pack weird shit for odd situations and am usually the one to contrive a solution to an obstacle.

But riddles? Either you get it or you don't. At the very least an ability check should give a hint or something. To say that it all has to be done by the player is horseshit, and unfun for most people.

Hell, my DM agrees that riddles should be for optional content only, not something required for the main quest.

[RandomCasualty2]

I dig *puzzles*, since they're something I can conquer by out-thinking it or whatever. I'm known as the group Boy Scout, since I always pack weird shit for odd situations and am usually the one to contrive a solution to an obstacle.

But riddles? Either you get it or you don't. At the very least an ability check should give a hint or something. To say that it all has to be done by the player is horseshit, and unfun for most people.

Well keep in mind that you can get stumped on anything. Whether it's a logic puzzle, a riddle, a murder mystery or a number sequence problem, you can eventually get stumped on it. But you dont' want the entire session to be the PCs sitting there struggling. It's one reason I like just having some kind of timelimit. The PCs get like 15 minutes of real time or whatever to try to solve it. If they can't. Then some consequence happens. They can't open the gates to Moria and have to find another way through, or what not.

Now, one thing is definitely true for all games in general. The continuance of the game should not hinge on solving a riddle to the point that the PCs literally can't do anything else until they solve it. That really does suck. Failing a riddle or puzzle may mean the quest is a failure, but it should never mean that the game just comes to a dead stop.

[Maj]

The difference between a riddle (which I agree is annoying) and a mystery (which is fucking awesome) is somewhat opaque to me. I think it's simply that in the case of a mystery you really can just keep collecting evidence while the werewolf keeps eating villagers until you eventually solve it. In the case of a riddle, you supposedly have everything you need right away, and that just makes it frustrating.

If that's the difference, screw riddles. If you include riddles where you get to find clues to the answer, then I'm not totally sold on how much they actually suck.

I think the point is that the adventure doesn't come to a grinding halt - because riddle or no, anything that brings the adventure to a grinding halt sucks by definition.

Someone is going to ask "Why is the evil over lord this stupid?" when his dark sanctums inner demon gate sits there giving you hints about what it's secret password is.

Riddles that protect passwords are really the magic world's equivalent of online security questions.

[PhoneLobster]

But don't immediately assume that because you don't like riddles or mysteries that nobody does. I've used riddles and puzzles in many of my gaming groups and on average the consensus is that people enjoyed solving them.

I didn't just state "I hatez tez Riddelz" 100 times over. I gave a long list of reasons why they are bad.

Your counter of "Well, I know some guys who said they liked mine!" rings rather hollow as an anecdotal response.

Especially since riddles are not a popular modern amusement in their own right (by any LARGE stretch of the imagination).

So I can't imagine what part of jarringly and senselessly interrupting another game that IS popular manages to change that.

It's like extending half time at a football match until one of the fans in the crowd can answer a riddle. It isn't doing anything for riddles and their already bad BAD image. I could only imagine it working with a crowd of existing riddle fans, and you'd have to scour the damn globe to get a football crowd worth of them.

However I can find it very easy to imagine group of gamers which doesn't want to offend their GM's little riddle fetish. I mean they talk to you face to face, they don't want to make you feel bad.

[PhoneLobster]

Riddles that protect passwords are really the magic world's equivalent of online security questions.

Then go see the line on lame forgetful evil overlords.

I wrote it rather specifically with that kind of scenario in mind.

Riddles are still silly for that very reason. A mnemonic hint for a secondary password should NOT be a riddle that anyone other than you can actually solve.

Other wise it is bad security. Indeed. Really silly security.

[cthulhu]

My team has real trouble with mysteries too... I kinda like franks line of reasoning.

[RandomCasualty2]

So I can't imagine what part of jarringly and senselessly interrupting another game that IS popular manages to change that.

Well, combat does the same thing.

Any minigame is pretty much by definition going to interrupt the main game. You go from walking on the world map to some kind of combat screen where monsters attack. It's just as easily as: you go to disarm the trap and you end up with some kind of wiring puzzle to solve. Hell, even a long discussion with an NPC, or drawn out scenes of PC-to-PC dialogue may be considered interruption.

It really varies from group to group.

I'm not saying you should like riddles or puzzles. I'm just saying that you should accept the fact that some people may like them.

Personally as a PC, I enjoy solving them.

some minigames I dislike are:
-Dungeon exploration minigame (choosing random doors, drawing maps and making a ton of search checks).
-Haggling over goods or adventure rewards (really boring because the same things are said over and over again).
-Tracking encumbrance and logistical concerns with buying mundane equipment like 10 ft poles.

Everyone has their own shit they don't like. I'm not saying that all those things should be eliminated from everyone's game, I'm just saying that they're things I don't like.

[PhoneLobster]

Well there is another old thread floating around about mystery solving as well.

I found that one when I was looking for the riddles thread.

But it's a bit of a different argument in a lot of ways. The sane position was, the story and game go on regardless of whether players miss specific prepared clues or hunt down leads the GM hadn't anticipated. And ultimately the mystery must be resolved even if it isn't solved.

RCs argument was apparently that mystery adventures require players to investigate the specific line of clues the GM anticipated and if they go with questioning the stable hands instead of the barmaids then they can go fuck themselves or something like that.

[Starmaker]

You should definitely add point 8.

8) Riddles punish players for being intelligent and break immersion.
Occasionally, the players are smart enough to understand no one in his right mind would use an answer to a riddle as a password, and anyone not in his right mind shouldn't be trusted to be consistent. Thus the riddle either serves no particular purpose or creates a disconnect (if the archwizard, played by the idiot DM, is seriously dumb and set an actual answer as password).

In Exalted: Time of Tumult: Invisible Fortress II, there's a classic knight and knave riddle with such a "twist": to not get raped in the ass by over 9000 unsoakable aggravated, you should choose the other door. Which is fucking stupid, because once we've transcended the metagame and are now using in-universe logic ("the builders didn't want trespassers here, so they deliberately switched doors"), there's no reason at all why the correct solution shouldn't be "sit in the room until you roll at least 100 successes on Perception+Awareness to locate a secret door on the ceiling" - which is in fact the correct solution for all other rooms in that dungeon. That's bad design.

[mostly irrelevant]
That's the reason why I, being regarded as a good judge of character, refuse to hazard guesses about tv murder mysteries: there's no way to know whether the widow's not mourning believably enough because she's murdered her husband or because she's just a bad actress. The same with PC betrayals: no one is allowed to roleplay a traitor because the other players usually have no way of knowing whether the would-be PK is deliberately hiding his dark past or he was too lazy to write a fucking backstory.

I'm not against mysteries or even in-universe knowledge checks (the kind you go to an in-game library to research). In fact, I'm currently writing an adventure where in order to open the (presumably dead) BBEG's secret vault the PC will need to go to the past and ask the BBEG for the password - who, when constructing the vault, would set this exact password to guarantee only the PC would ever be able to open it. That's what I consider to be an okay mystery.

Riddles that protect passwords are really the magic world's equivalent of online security questions.

Yes, but sometimes the answer is 45697873413134687.94 and you have no way of guessing it, and sometimes it's "Wasilla High" and we know the rest of the story.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I think riddles can have a place in RPG adventures, depending on your audience.



I used this in a small D&D dungeon with four players. If they didn't answer it before opening the door it was attached to, they set off a hallucinogenic gas trap. Solving it took about 1 minute for the party. About 3 alternative ways to bypass the trap existed. If the players wanted to make a check to figure the puzzle out automatically, the DC was 16.

[PhoneLobster]

That's a bad riddle. It's far too vague, you could name about 30 or more remotely reasonable answers in that minute.

And what? do your players also have the option of making attack rolls OR stabbing you with a shiv? And if they do go for the shiv do you just let them try 20-50 times until they succeed?

But allowing players to potentially bypass it was certainly the right choice.

Of course putting it there in the first place was the wrong one.

After all, once again, why was it there?

You should definitely add point 8.

I've presented that one in other riddle arguments I've made.

Kind of an oversight on this one. But related to a lot of the other points anyway.

It's one of the more damning criticisms of the riddle in D&D. What the hell makes DMs think that players will think the correct answer is the rewarding answer? See my example on the "cunning evil overlord".

[Avoraciopoctules]

That's a bad riddle. It's far too vague, you could name about 30 or more remotely reasonable answers in that minute.

And any reasonable answer would work. A riddle doesn't necessarily have to have only one answer.

And what? do your players also have the option of making attack rolls OR stabbing you with a shiv? And if they do go for the shiv do you just let them try 20-50 times until they succeed?

I am willing to LARP battles. I keep several bins full of wooden sparring weapons in the garage for this purpose, and have taken up amateur carpentry so that I can produce new ones as needed.

But allowing players to potentially bypass it was certainly the right choice.

Of course putting it there in the first place was the wrong one.

After all, once again, why was it there?

The dungeon was the tomb of an adventurer. He wanted to design it so that it would become quite similar to the complexes he had explored in the past. This adventurer liked riddles and puzzles, so he stuck a few into the plans.

[Koumei]

How to deal with the Moria door puzzle: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Examples_of_Play

[PhoneLobster]

And any reasonable answer would work. A riddle doesn't necessarily have to have only one answer.

It kinda does.

I am willing to LARP battles. I keep several bins full of wooden sparring weapons in the garage for this purpose, and have taken up amateur carpentry so that I can produce new ones as needed.

You are frightening and terrible.

Also. That is a pretty bad game mechanic. You know, for a game that isn't a LARP.

The dungeon was the tomb of an adventurer. He wanted to design it so that it would become quite similar to the complexes he had explored in the past. This adventurer liked riddles and puzzles, so he stuck a few into the plans.

That sentence raises at least four distinct whys.

Why would he do that in the first place?
Why would "past complexes" contain riddles?
Why, as an adventure faced with annoying riddles, would he like annoying riddles?
Why would he include a riddle in that apparently pointless manner?

[Fuchs]

I loathe riddles. With a passion.