TNE: Setting: Suggestions

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TNE: Setting: Suggestions

Post by Judging__Eagle »

  1. Not Pseudo-Medival "Yurp"
  2. India, but we sort of know about this place, and we once talked at length about it. I think we all want a clean page though
  3. Africa, seriously, every tribe could be a different species, and the place seriously had iron age nations with infrastructes that could support standing armies in the same continent as there were stone-age bushmen.
  4. Pre-colonisation Americas. North or Central or South, also pretty well known, but not massive diversity in terms of tech levels; most of them were copper/bronze age at best
  5. Australia. Only one real culture group, and it was pretty much unified b/c they were so spread out
  6. Polynesian Islands, lots of culture groups, some differences in tech levels
  7. Japan?
  8. China?
I'm for Africa, it's got a wide range of culture groups, we have a wide range of tech levels, we get to throw out all of the prejudices that other people might have, and there's tons of background info that merely needs to be researched instead of generated.

Yurp can go suck a loaded shotgun. Also, let's get rid of white people. They typical human in TNE is brown.
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Post by ckafrica »

My biggest fear with being too earthlike is it lends to bad stereotypes. If we go fantasy lets go crazy all out fantasy. Let's mix stuff up so it's not recognizable as something we've seen a million times. Lets have the whole world be neopolitan or moon mist flavored
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Post by Username17 »

I'm reminded of my old work on Atayala, which was a continent based mostly on China and Siberia. The idea there was that the people there had a perfectly workable 6 element system and a powerful magic empire that ran everything and then people discovered iron. So the empire came crashing down as all bronze age empires did historically when iron came butting in - because frankly the power and wealth of the empire where it could provide enough bronze and magic to field an army at all was no longer impressive when literally every barbarian tribe could now do the same with the newly available iron weapons.

I had the remaining empire flee to an island and protect themselves from iron using monsters with weather control and incredible xenophobia, while the continent collapsed into a series of tribes that used different magics and were currently being gobbled up by nation building processes. I did a few things on a Culture Focus series set in that world. I think that they are still in the My Own Creations folder somewhere.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

ckafrica wrote:My biggest fear with being too earthlike is it lends to bad stereotypes. If we go fantasy lets go crazy all out fantasy. Let's mix stuff up so it's not recognizable as something we've seen a million times. Lets have the whole world be neopolitan or moon mist flavored
In my experience, people make the most unique settings when they try to work with something historical. When they go all 'everything's crazy and new', they tend to just fall back on their own cultural stereotypes.

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Post by Username17 »

Yes, here they are:
So I was thinking of going with just humans, rakshasa, alfar, and ormigans. Seems to cover things nicely enough.

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Ant people and Tiger people, yep, that works for me.

ckafrica, the reason I'd rather go for a real world setting that is unknown is that you've got the ground work done, and it's usually pretty crazy to begin with. From there you are extrapolating how everything interacts.

Usually the second stage is not done, because the writer spent too much time doing the first part, and getting married to it.
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Post by zeruslord »

I'd object to going with just alfar, because it leads rapidly to build-your-own race territory in every game. Saying "I'm going to play an alfar" is less helpful than "I'm going to play a medium humanoid" because the latter at least nails down size. Unless rakshasa and ormigan represent more than just tiger people and ant people, we run out of races or make them too broad.
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Post by Bigode »

FrankTrollman wrote:I had the remaining empire flee to an island and protect themselves from iron using monsters with weather control and incredible xenophobia, while the continent collapsed into a series of tribes that used different magics and were currently being gobbled up by nation building processes. I did a few things on a Culture Focus series set in that world. I think that they are still in the My Own Creations folder somewhere.
BTW, was the resemblance of the remainder to Japan (kamikaze ...) on purpose?
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Post by Crissa »

I still want TNE to be more about how to make a balanced game for a setting than about a specific setting at all.

I think we have dozens of stories - but only a few people capable of turning those stories into playable games. So we should focus on providing tools which turn stories into playable games.

Limiting the genre simulation I'm okay with, but honestly, I don't care if the humans are purple or not, I've seen it enough times. I'm more worried about the game being able to be a game than the game being able to have a setting.

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Post by Bigode »

Crissa wrote:I still want TNE to be more about how to make a balanced game for a setting than about a specific setting at all.

I think we have dozens of stories - but only a few people capable of turning those stories into playable games. So we should focus on providing tools which turn stories into playable games.

Limiting the genre simulation I'm okay with, but honestly, I don't care if the humans are purple or not, I've seen it enough times. I'm more worried about the game being able to be a game than the game being able to have a setting.

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Look at what's being done about Warhammer now. There are 2 games being made, with many mechanics in common. That probably's what'll make any particular game tell its intended stories the best.
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LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
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Re: TNE: Setting: Suggestions

Post by virgil »

Why do we want a clean slate from India? Atalya's good too, don't get me wrong.
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Post by Username17 »

Crissa wrote:I still want TNE to be more about how to make a balanced game for a setting than about a specific setting at all.
I'd like a girl friend, a fancy house, and a mercedes full of cheerleaders. But that isn't going to happen.

The fact is that the rules that evoke one setting and another setting are wildly different. Not a little bt different, wildly different. DMH, AWoD, and Warp Cult all use the same basic action resolution and they don't even have the same attributes. Your "game creation tool kit" goes about as far as
  • Pick One:
  • Roll a d20
  • Roll a pile of d6s and add them together.
  • Roll a variable number of d6s and count hits.
  • Roll percentile dice.
    Then compare to modified target number to determine success.
Seriously, that's as far as the "tool kit" takes you. It gives you an action resolution system. It doesn't give you a skill list, a power list, or even a combat turn sequence. Dead Man's Hand and AWoD don't have three dimensional terrain on the board with an assumption that players are going to march their characters around it with tape measures. And Warp Cult does. Because it is a different setting and it makes sense to do it that way.

Having a universal game system that does whatever it is that you want it to do is not an unreasonable thing to want. But it is an unreasonable thing to expect to actually get. Because the world straight up does not work that way.

d20s claim that it could generate anything from Romance of the Three Kingdoms to Arabian Nights to Iron Kingdoms to The Shadow to Forgotten Realms was a very attractive story. But it was a lie. d20 couldn't even generate the FRCS because internal contractions between the setting and the game system would tear the setting apart if placed under any scrutiny.

I'd object to going with just alfar, because it leads rapidly to build-your-own race territory in every game.
That's fair. I'm not super wedded to them. My thought is that humans from Senicia and humans from Hive Mosyna are so different that they fill in the void that fantasy players feel because there aren't any rhino-nosed-goblins or whatever. As such, you could throw down some cultures of Alfar with wackier abilities.

Some kind of racially malleable creature is an absolute must. Because otherwise you can't have a good explanation for monsters of the week. My original thought was for Dragons that could voluntarily change their body around as they grew older. And as they grew older and largr they would all eventually go mad and start breaking shit. So you had dragons with poison stingers and dragons with lots of legs, and fire breathing dragons and winged dragons and whatever.

You need something like that or it becomes practically impossible to explain why you have a Couatl and a Sea Serpent and a Cave Drake in the same setting.

Rakshasa are more than just tiger people. The word means something similar to "ogre." The ones with Tiger Heads are the Palankasha. Other Rakshasa have other monstrous traits, like tusks and horns and donkey heads and stuff.

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Post by Crissa »

That's why I think being wedded to a genre is good enough.

But I don't think it matters if your pantheon is Swedish or Latin if it's still throwing swords and swinging spells and raiding temples and castles.

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Post by Username17 »

Crissa wrote:But I don't think it matters if your pantheon is Swedish or Latin if it's still throwing swords and swinging spells and raiding temples and castles.
It totally does.

For example: if you have a seven elements system the game mechanics are fundamentally different than if you have five or thee. The fact that every character in Warp Cult is likely a human and not everyone is a psyker shifts more of the character customization options into perks. It literally makes the system different. While in AWoD every character is a special monster type (one of 3 types of one of six types) that has in-built magic powers and can learn other magic powers. This puts more of the customization onto character magic and allows us to fold the stunt perks back into skill checks. And so on.

The game isn't the same once you've made it different, and mechanics will reflect that if the game is good.

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Re: TNE: Setting: Suggestions

Post by JonSetanta »

virgileso wrote:Why do we want a clean slate from India? Atalya's good too, don't get me wrong.
A more original setting such as Dominaria works better IMO.
"Fantasy India" goes as far as yet more "Medieval Europe" what-ho and forsooths.
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Post by baduin »

One question: do you want to make the game for yourself (ie - Frank for Frank, Judging Eagle for Judging Eagle etc), or for wider distribution?

If the first - the best thing will be to do what you want to do.

But if you want to have some wider audience, I suggest there is one game which has a nearly perfect setting, or at least metasetting: D&D. There is a reason why it became so popular, and it certainly isn't the perfection of the rules (independently from edition). The best solution would be to keep to the industry standard, with some alternative window dressing.

And what is the meta-setting of D&D? It started as a post apocalyptic science-fantasy set in the future North America, a kind of Shadowrun one thousand years after a nuclear war, with the characters being ignorant barbarians digging up plasma guns and summoning demons to conquer the world. It was filled with all kinds of mad ideas from sword-and-sorcery literature and popular superstition (both derro and negative energy are borrowed from a novel about underground mind-controlling gnomes written by a literal madman).

Later it was covered up with a thick layer of Tolkienism, with a side serving of traditional folklore/horror films about vampires, werewolves etc. But as you get to higher levels, Tolkienian elements tend to disappear.

Forgotten Realms was a quite different, typical quasi-Tolkien setting, which was bought wholesale and bolted on the D&D framework; at lower levels it works more or less OK, and at higher levels the NPC casters are supposed to keep everything frozen for their own convenience in a kind of cold war.

So, the settings are mostly incoherent. The meta-setting, on the other hand, is quite well defined. The common elements are the ruins of previous empires, where you can find powerful artifacts, the fact that common people live in quasi-medieval, or at least low tech and low power world, and the real power belongs to people who scavenged some ancient magic or technology from ruins at a tremendous risk to themselves. A detachment of horse-archers and knights is useful, but if you personally have a powered armor, a plasma gun and a nuclear hand-granade (or equivalent spells) your guys will tend to win no matter the odds. For that reason the real power is not correlated with the area and people controlled.

The balance factor is that all nuclear hand granades in easily accessible places have been found and set off long ago, so if you want to find the really good toys, you must dig deep.

The metasetting is supposed to be inherently unstable, since the first people to get to high level will blow it up. In fact, most of the settings get blown up repeatedly. That is why intelligent people tend to escape to personal demi-planes.

Tekumel is a good example of a D&D setting without the "faux medievalism". It works but is not so popular - most people want that pseudo-medievalism, at least as the beginning. Everything gets very strange very quickly, so it helps to have some background of normality.

What is the conclusion? IF (and it is a big if) someone wants to produce at least a somewhat popular game, it is best to keep to the basic rules of D&D metasetting. The cultural backgrounds can very widely, but the method of advancement should remain the same, and the power of various special effects (flying, ranged area attacks, invisiblity, incorporeality etc) should be similar.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Very post apocalyptic settings would indeed allow for some interesting stories.

You can keep everything "low-tech", and have the odd high tech thing/culture/idea laying about and it wouldn't kill the setting.

Personally, I'd like a setting where I can use real earth maps to make real game world maps.

So you could easily have Nurome being managed by a bunch of hobgoblins, while the travelling wooden cart worshipers of Deva are halflings that have silf headscarves and are accused to kidnapping childrens or stealing money.

At one point Frank explained pretty well why magic hasn't completely bootstrapped the D&D world up to "our" time setting. The reason being that for every 11th level wizard that is able to Fabricating or creating Walls of Stone, there are literally dozens of lower level wizards who can only cast Fireball, but no "productive" spells. The desctructive capabilites of the weak keep the productive capabilites of the few in check.

Sort of like some sort of bizarre inverse group of prey to predators.

Oh, that works too. Weak characters go after and harass more powerful ones in the off chance that they might get any amount of swag.

So, you may be an 11th lvl Fighter, but low level guys are constantly going to be trying to pull all sorts of shit in order to get your stuff. Be it raid your home when you're not there, or ambush you on your own.

Of course, an 11th lvl anthing should be able to mop the floor with a bunch of level 1-4's. However the few low level characters that successfully ambush even one 11th level anything have both suddenly gained a pile of power (rare items, or even actual magic items), and have reduced the power of "Civilization" vs "Team Monster".

Of course, most adventurers aren't amoral, selfish, Robin Hoods. However the existence of such desperate people means that high level characters don't usually go around actively being noticeable by lots of people. High level Warriors wander from town to town looking for more powerful enemies to take on and rob, while high level casters will sit on their duff in a hidden place and send out scrying sensors to do the same. Hell, the members of the same adventuring party could very well do that; calling on their missing party members when they see a good target to group up against while wandering around on their own or in small groups in order to find forgotten relics of the past.

Also "magic" chainswords.

In some ways, the "lore" for WH40k is a lot like D&D. Most of the characters that have "unique" or "special" weapons did things like "find them in a dungeon" (Abbadon, Drach'nyen) or "loot them from ancient Xenos ruins" (Some Space Wolf stuff, various other people's stuff) or "steal them from a defeated enemy" (Commisar Yarrick's power claw) or "Were forged long ago, and no one knows how to make anything like it" (tons and tons of stuff). So, magic chainswords or power armour are very well a possiblilty in a "D&D" setting game.
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Post by Bigode »

That works and I'd have no problem with it, but the moment you do it, ant emphasis the anachronisms get'll have been diverted from emphasis on African/Indian elements.

Which I, at least, would prefer. If I wanted (and I will want, but for other games) sci-fi, it's gonna be cyberpunk - a.k.a. Shadowrun (yeah, I know there's magic there too - but there's the Matrix, complex politics, and so on).
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Post by Username17 »

The thing is that D&D's original metasetting isn't popular. These days D&D pretty much ignores that Greyhawk was ever set in the distant future of Earth or that there were relics of modernity lying around hither and yon. Go back as far as you want in the Eberron time frame and you won't find any reference to plastics and cars. At all.

The idea of post-apocalyptic fantasy was big back in the late sixties and seventies when D&D was formed. Dying Earth, Thieves World, River World, and so on. But while several franchises set up at that point that have lasted to today, they did so by being the established major franchises rather than by being any particular thing that had great resonance with a timeless demographic. Let's face it: in 2008 Warhammer Fantasy no longer claims to be taking place on a far future world in Elvish space - that's retired fluff. The packaged settings of 4th edition D&D don't have lost blaster pistols in them. Hell, they aren't even attached to Spelljammer spheres anymore.

These days, fantasy works don't set themselves up as dark futures. Even when fantasy worlds do intersect with our world somehow, they usually do so in the past like Full Metal Alchemist. Gamma World and Demon Winter are frickin obscure to people playing the game today. Fuck, the later versions of Might and Magic pretty much disregarded the space ships and laser pistols altogether.

3rd edition D&D has an assumed world of Diablo, and 4th edition has an assumed world of Warcraft. It's not a campy retro-future anymore, and no one seems to mind.

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Post by baduin »

No, they retired the post-apocalyptic and science-fantasy SETTINGS.

Meta-setting is finding fun stuff in ruins and taking it from monsters. 4ed keeps going about "point of lights" and "fallen empires" such as Nerath, Arkhosia, Bael Turath etc

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1066620

In Eberron there is a whole dead nation to loot.

It does not matter whether the fallen empires were technological or magical. As you said, it is simply a justification for Diablo economy. The Diablo economy or some variant is actually an essential part of the game - it provides both a reason for dungeon-crawling and the reason why the most powerful people in the world are a bunch of grave-robbers, not knights, generals and the like.

You can do this in Africa - why not? Read up on Haggard and Burroughs, Egypt, Atlantis, Prester John, Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Kush, Meroe. Or you can play in the modern or near future Africa. This is nearly perfect D&D land already: you loot diamonds and buy better guns. Pygmies with poisoned arrows, AK-47s, technicals, tanks, and modern aircraft.

A high-level cleric with henchmen and hirelings:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world ... wanted=all
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Post by Crissa »

Frank, I think you're jump genre there by putting in psykers or whatever and changing what makes a character a character.

Which would mean you're pulling out an argument which is totally outside the bounds of mine.

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Post by zeruslord »

Frank wrote:That's fair. I'm not super wedded to them. My thought is that humans from Senicia and humans from Hive Mosyna are so different that they fill in the void that fantasy players feel because there aren't any rhino-nosed-goblins or whatever. As such, you could throw down some cultures of Alfar with wackier abilities.
Alright then. I'm fine with four malleable races, but some of them still might be too broad.

How much of the existing mechanics are we looking at keeping or will we be able to write genre-appropriate rules from scratch?
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Post by Username17 »

zeruslord wrote:How much of the existing mechanics are we looking at keeping or will we be able to write genre-appropriate rules from scratch?
At this point, I think that The Den has more than enough mechanics floating around it to be assembled into a game in a rather short amount of time should the projected results of the game be nailed down.

Basically at this point the game is like a protein that is supposed to perform a certain task. Once we nail down what that task is we can in fact assemble the game procedurally if we have sufficient amino acids (represented by free floating game mechanics taken from the soup of the Den). And frankly I think we do.

I mean, Warp Cult was assembled into a barely playable condition in like a week and a half. Once the actual benchmarks are fixed it's a simple matter of regression to generate what the mechanics "should" look like.

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Post by zeruslord »

In that case, why are we worrying about the cultural background yet? We need to go back to the very bottom level. What genre are we trying to simulate? Clearly some sort of fantasy, but do we want sword and sorcery, high fantasy, epic fantasy, or D&D crazytown?
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

zeruslord wrote:D&D crazytown?
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