Why is mounted combat so good?

[Crissa]

Why is mounted combat better than any of the large monster races that have multiple attacks?

Why is it different?

The mount moves on the rider's init, acts at the rider's direction, and pretty much does little else.

Why isn't combat simplified for mounted to be the same as having extra mass and an extra attack?

-Crissa

[Voss]

Other than insane damage on mounted charges, I wasn't aware it was that better. Or complicated, for that matter.

Care to explain?

[MrWaeseL]

Because it uses damage multipliers instead of extra damage.

[Crissa]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedCombat

Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit.

In 3.0, this wasn't limited to once a round. Still, it doesn't transfer the attack to the rider - it negates the attack.

Damage multipliers come from any charge, mounted or no; so that's not quite it...

But a dragon with a guy on his back is more dangerous than a dragon and a guy, or a larger dragon.

-Crissa

[Lago_AM3P]

I think it's unbalancing and unfair, but unlike a lot of design intent it doesn't actively piss me off.

The problem with mounted combat is that, especially at low levels, your mounts are REALLY BADASS. Seriously. I'd rather have two heavy warhorses watching my my back in melee than two second-level fighters. A pack of riding dogs is cheap and will tear most low-level opposition to shreds.

Except that not too far into the future, your mounts become paper towels and liabilities. It's a crying shame.

[Voss]

1190506420[/unixtime]]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#mountedCombat


Damage multipliers come from any charge, mounted or no; so that's not quite it...

-Crissa

What now? Lance + spirited charge are only throwing that x3 (or x2 if just a lance) about if the character is mounted. I'm not aware of any feats that give you damage multipliers if you charge unmounted. And really, its only a issue because they stupidly allow all of your damage modifiers to apply, rather than just the damage die.

[JonSetanta]

It is good? What?

[Crissa]

Mounted combat allows for negating an attack once a round. It allows for ranged attackers to be unstoppable - literally, they don't have to stop or slow to shoot. The mount can engage in melee, even, while this is happening - and this is all a static skill roll.

A dragon ridden by a guy is more dangerous than a dragon and a guy, even though they have the same CR. A dragon ridden by a guy is still more dangerous than a larger dragon with more attacks than both put together.

1190507937[/unixtime]]And really, its only a issue because they stupidly allow all of your damage modifiers to apply, rather than just the damage die.

Does this really make it good? Why?

The mounted charge option is really replacing two charging characters with one attack roll. So why is it uber-powerful to replace two attacks with one that's twice as damaging?

Anyhow, that's not really a big deal; charging may allow for a huge damage bonus, but who's going to allow more than one charge to happen in a combat? It's just a shorthand for putting the two attacks into one. Perhaps a static size bonus would be more appropriate, but that's really not why mounted combat is dangerous - the rider could be casting, shooting, or swinging while the mount is as well.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Ah thanks Crissa.

I still prefer spellcasting, though. And explosions.

Statted out a Living Meteor Swarm recently, maybe someone can ride that.

[Sma]

The mounted charge option is really replacing two charging characters with one attack roll. So why is it uber-powerful to replace two attacks with one that's twice as damaging?

Because you replace one weak ass attack + one supposedly level appropriate one, with one thats worth 3 level appropriate attacks.

[Crissa]

1190518321[/unixtime]]Because you replace one weak ass attack + one supposedly level appropriate one, with one thats worth 3 level appropriate attacks.

...A specific singular attack happens to get an extra attack? Woo! That means the feat chain is worth one Cleave!

@-@

Why that attracts attention like a flame to a moth is beyond me.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

That Ride-check-to-avoid-a-hit is cool, I just looked it up. Usually I blow over the Ride section in AD&D and 3.x but now that you mention it, it's damned good.

Phantom Steed is worth using but I don't like the 'steed' part, rather have like... Phantom Wings or Phantom Tentacles that function the same as the original spell.
Just don't like horses heh

[Voss]

1190515420[/unixtime]]Mounted combat allows for negating an attack once a round. It allows for ranged attackers to be unstoppable - literally, they don't have to stop or slow to shoot. The mount can engage in melee, even, while this is happening - and this is all a static skill roll.

This only matters if the opponents have no ranged attacks or spells, or are slower than your mount. A smart spellcaster will blow the hell out of your mount, negating a good chunk of your feats. And since you you can only negate an *attack*, the field is essentially open for spellcasters to screw with you.

A dragon ridden by a guy is more dangerous than a dragon and a guy, even though they have the same CR. A dragon ridden by a guy is still more dangerous than a larger dragon with more attacks than both put together.

Well, that depends on the dragon. And the guy. Monster mounts are a slightly different kettle of fish to horses/ponies/dogs. A dragon can easily be better off not charging. And depending on what its doing, better than a guy on his back with a lance. A guy on a horse? Charge away. It will always be better, because...

1190507937[/unixtime]]And really, its only a issue because they stupidly allow all of your damage modifiers to apply, rather than just the damage die.

Does this really make it good? Why?

Yes. Yes it does.
Take, for example (I'm not going to bother to optimize the hell out of this, just take it as understood that this could be even better) a 12th level fighter with a 20 strength, weapon focus, specialization, greater focus and specialization and a +3 lance. And the spirited charge feat. Thats a base of +22 to hit and damage is d8+12
Charging, he's at +24 to hit and does 3d8 +36
Full attack, he's got 3 attacks a +22, +17 and +12. Odds are, at least one of those attacks is going to miss, and he'll do less damage.
Looking at the CR 12 critters in the MM, AC ranges from 17 to 27. The charger hits on a 3+, the non charger will probably miss with his last attack 25% to 50% of the time, and thus, do less.

The mounted charge option is really replacing two charging characters with one attack roll. So why is it uber-powerful to replace two attacks with one that's twice as damaging?

It isn't, actually. Nothing is stopping the mount from attacking, as far as I can tell. And the lancers attack (assuming he isn't a moron) is three times as damaging.

Anyhow, that's not really a big deal; charging may allow for a huge damage bonus, but who's going to allow more than one charge to happen in a combat?

How do you propose to stop him from riding away? Even assuming the target isn't dead by the end of his charge? There may be an AoO involved, but if its against the mount, hey, that can be negated!

It's just a shorthand for putting the two attacks into one.

No it isn't. Check the ride skill, directing a warhorse to fight is a free action. Nothing prevents you and your mount from attacking on the charge. In fact, since the mount is charging, it explicitly gets an attack (because thats what a charge is). The mounted rules allow the rider to attack too. And it gets ridiculous if you've got a druid with a rhino between his/her legs.

Perhaps a static size bonus would be more appropriate, but that's really not why mounted combat is dangerous - the rider could be casting, shooting, or swinging while the mount is as well.

-Crissa

The thing is, if you're doing anything other than charging, there isn't much point to a mount. You don't have any real advantage over someone with a magically enhanced movement, except for the benefit of ride or concentration checks to screw you up.

Charging with a lance (and spirited charge, plus whatever other feats you want to tack on), means that instead of taking full attacks and accepting the fact that some are just going to miss, you get all you lovely damage in one big bunch thats very likely to hit. Its one of the reasons the iterative attacks are screwed up: not only are you throwing your mobility out the window, they just aren't very good. Only if the character is a pure 16th+ warrior-type does he have a chance of doing more damage in a round than a charger. (With attacks, of course. Not spells). A rogue can go off in a different direction, especially since sneak attack doesn't multiply,

[Crissa]

Voss, those are stupid arguments. With real stupid.

Why isn't your Fighter riding a level-appropriate mount?

Who cares how much of a plus to hit he is? He'd be that much anyhow with Cleave.

Who cares that he gets an extra attack off? You just had him run off.

How do you stop him from charging? Have you ever heard of something as simple as a chair? Charges have to be straight and unimpeded.

A spellcaster stops a Fighter! Oh, geepers, how inappropriate! 9-9

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

I see valid points in both you statements but it seems to come to a matter of opinion between "I like mounted combat" and "I don't like mounted combat" IMO.

[Crissa]

Why the focus on charging, as if it were the only thing you could do from a mount. Then the argument that it was overpowered, and then the argument that it wasn't because... Because mounts can be killed?

That seems ujnrelated to my argument, 'A mounted critter is more dangerous than two critters.'

Perhaps mounts don't scale in later levels appropriately. But that doesn't stop riding from being better than working with. One expects Master Blaster working together to be more efficient than both of them not working together, but really... More dangerous than a Blaster that has Master's stats, too?

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Dragonriding is Epic, like since the dawn of D&D (it's in all the fancy art), but hard to pull off without 'lagging the game'.
Flying combat on top of mounted combat with all those actions is just too much.

But still.. a spellcaster on a dragon (that is under the caster's control) is easily more dangerous multiple times more than 2 dragons or 2 spellcasters.

[erik]

1190523340[/unixtime]]
A smart spellcaster will blow the hell out of your mount, negating a good chunk of your feats. And since you you can only negate an *attack*, the field is essentially open for spellcasters to screw with you.

That isn't always true.

I love it when enemies target my mount, as I play an 8 Druid/1 Fighter deep halfling cavalry in Living Grayhawk. My mount for currently is a Dire Bat with generic leather armor barding and barkskin +3 as the only buffs (plus bonus HD). That clocks in at an AC of 27 (sometimes Reduce Animal for an AC of 28 for tighter dungeons and fast mount/dismount). My ride score is only +15 or so. The smart DMs do not bother targeting my mount since it is frickin hard to hit and has evasion and a mighty reflex save. On the rare occasions where my mount goes down, I just summon more and get back to business.

For the reason of mount hardiness alone Druids make great chargers. They have even more going for them than just that though.

I currently play my charger with a wizard who grants me Shock Trooper via the Heroics spell. Messy. Once I find access to the Lion's Pounce spell (swift action for full attack on charge, 3rd level druid spell from SpellComp) there ain't gonna be nothing that can survive my charges.

I generally don't bother attacking with my mount since that negates the awesomeness of Ride By Attack. I like being able to set myself up for another devastating charge next round... and I also like not hanging around for a retaliatory full attack if I get screwed by the occasional natural one on my spirited charge attack roll.

1190523340[/unixtime]]
The thing is, if you're doing anything other than charging, there isn't much point to a mount. You don't have any real advantage over someone with a magically enhanced movement, except for the benefit of ride or concentration checks to screw you up.

Actually there's a lot of goodness in mounts even for non-chargers.
* Full archery attacks with movement
* Flight capability and/or alternate modes of movement
* Take cover with a ride check for +4 AC
* Extra encumberance
* +1 Melee attack bonus for high ground
* It can attack too
* Inexpensive and undispellable fast movement

An encounter of a low level party vs a Monstrous Crab can either be a brutal TPK or laughably easy, depending upon whether the party has mounts. That critter will tear a new asshole into a party on foot, whereas if you're on horsies you can just double move away while killing it for chump change in arrows and bolts... charging doesn't even have to enter the picture.

[JonSetanta]

Yes just buff the mount to prevent it from being knocked out from under you....

[Voss]

1190524480[/unixtime]]Voss, those are stupid arguments. With real stupid.

You are the one who wanted to know about mounted combat, and why it was better. Don't throw a hissy at people trying to help you out.

Why isn't your Fighter riding a level-appropriate mount?

Because he's a fighter, and has no access to such, unless the DM is an idiot and lets the leadership feat in?

Who cares how much of a plus to hit he is? He'd be that much anyhow with Cleave.

What is he cleaving? Against a CR appropriate critter, there is going to be 1 of them. 9 times out of 10, if you have an opponent so weak you can cleave to another weak opponent, it doesn't matter what you do. You're killing things that aren't a challenge anyway.

Who cares that he gets an extra attack off? You just had him run off.

This is a bit vague, but I'm guessing you're referring to the fighter. A charger will do more damage by withdrawing and recharging than sitting on his ass in front of a monster. General monsters get a better deal out of multiple attacks I high level. So standing in front of them isn't particularly clever.

How do you stop him from charging? Have you ever heard of something as simple as a chair? Charges have to be straight and unimpeded.

Oh, are we throwing arbitrary obstacles into a rules example? Thats productive. Nevermind that I was just demonstrating the damage difference in one strong attack against lesser weak attacks.

@clikml- I wasn't thinking of someone being that stupid. I was thinking of a simple hold monster. Mounts don't deal to well with will saves, in general.

And yes, horse archers will eat a closet troll alive. But as I noted before, a reasonably intelligent DM won't throw a slow creature with no ranged/magic attacks at a party in an open field and let them kill it for free XP.

Druids make great chargers because druids are broken, and frankly excel at almost any role. And the charge build isn't terribly feat intensive, anyway. First or second level. Whee.

[JonSetanta]

Put that closet troll on another mount, though, and the tides have turned...

[Koumei]

1190530466[/unixtime]]
Because he's a fighter, and has no access to such, unless the DM is an idiot and lets the leadership feat in?

Wait, so the DM is stupid to give the (already underpowered) fighter access to something level-appropriate?

[cthulhu]

I think the real reason mounted combat is better is that knights riding warhorses is 'cool' and the designers wanted to encourage that. And the problem with knights riding warhorses is the horse gets blown out from under you, hence the negating attacks thing.

Hence the decisions. I don;t think it runs much deeper than that

[Voss]

1190536903[/unixtime]]

1190530466[/unixtime]]
Because he's a fighter, and has no access to such, unless the DM is an idiot and lets the leadership feat in?

Wait, so the DM is stupid to give the (already underpowered) fighter access to something level-appropriate?

No. Because a smart fighter wouldn't waste a cohort slot on a mount. He'd bring along a pocket spellcaster and magic item creator. If he has a druid, for example, it could buff, make items in down time and cast Phantom Stag, Summon Natures Ally #, or whatever, whenever the hell the fighter needed a steed.

[Neeek]

1190574614[/unixtime]]
No. Because a smart fighter wouldn't waste a cohort slot on a mount. He'd bring along a pocket spellcaster and magic item creator. If he has a druid, for example, it could buff, make items in down time and cast Phantom Stag, Summon Natures Ally #, or whatever, whenever the hell the fighter needed a steed.

Of course, he could just ride the druid.