How About Midnight?

[Captain_Bleach]

So, in my seemingly eternal quest to find some semblance of sense in D&D at all levels, I stumble across this game. I look at several reviews for the game, and a lot of them are positive.
The setting appears richly detailed, and plenty of helpful examples of the overall theme are readily supplied to you so you can easily describe the type of campaign setting that you are running without being stumped the next time someone asks.
But you all know why I really brought this up; how is it game-balance wise? Are there any broken builds or rules inconsistencies that jump out at you?
Also for the magic system: It says that in the setting, spell casters that do not pledge their allegiance to Izrador (Dictator of the Entire Setting) are hunted down and killed. Knowing the typical "kick in the door" D&D players, they most likely will simply look at this as a quick way to garner Experience Points. The spell system is slightly different, and I want to know if it holds up well. Also, from what I read of the setting, what is to prevent players from going "screw it, let's just pledge our lives to Izrador and give up our souls, which would probably have been destroyed by his minions anyway, so we can have power and suitable living conditions as long as we do whatever he tells us to do?"
It also states in some places of text that Izrador is infallible and cannot be destroyed, but your goal is to make his reign as difficult as possible as long as you draw breath. While this "fatalistic courage" may appeal to believers in Ragnarok and Call of Cthulhu fans, what about others, both players of the game and people in the setting? If one cannot win, why be a hero? Regardless of what the PCs do, it appears that they will never be free of tyranny, whether they be an oppressed majority or underlings for "the man."
However, if it has a good and balanced rules system for d20, then I might just be interested in using its materials for other settings. Here is the link

[Leress]

link doesn't work

[Captain_Bleach]

Fixed.
Link is now at the end.

[Username17]

The Channeler really perplexes me. It's a really shitty class actually. In 20 levels you get essentially 11 bonus feats (Magecraft, 4 Metamagic Feats, and 6 Spellcasting feats). That's just what a Fighter gets. The Channeler also suffers less Subdual Damage, but the Fighter has more hit points.

The Fighter actually has more spellcasting potential over 20 levels. It makes my head explode. Of course, since the first level of Channeler gives two bonus feats that you'll have to take anyway you'd be a damned fool to not take it.

Anyhow, the basic concept with magic is that anyone can cast it if they set fire to all of their feats. And since this is D&D magic this means that really noone gets any feats because you'd be a damned idiot to not spend them all on being a Wizard in addition to whatever else it is that you do.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

From what I read, magic is a restricted art. Do the spell feats have any prerequisites that reflect the hidden art?

And what of the rest of setting?

P.S: Trollmann, every d20 campaign/setting that I mentioned so far, you have so far said was poor. In your opinion, what d20 games/settings out there are good?

[Voss]

Meh. Its essentially Dark Sun without the deserts (including the evil not-quite-but-pretty-much-a-cleric class). Evil has won! Life sucks. The underdog challenge angle might be fun for a while, but the longer you play the more you'll realize that they added and subtracted things from 3.x without any regard to the overall balance.

Bigger racial bonuses! Hurrah. Playing the equivalent of LA 1 races makes no difference if everyone is and no one gets hit with the penalties.

Magic gets a weird nerf bat, but with all sorts of work arounds. I'm sure if someone cared to make the effort, you could still break the world just as easily.

Random new core classes that add... things. And stuff. And general weirdness. Some abilities are pretty cool, others suck. The defender is worth a read just for the alignment section, which is pretty much a classic case for how badly D&D has fvcked law vs chaos up.

The wildlander is a good illustration of reasons why some people shouldn't try to write classes. Take the Danger Sense ability. It kicks in at 3rd level, and then sort of progresses every three levels afterwards.
3rd- +4 on spot checks to notice other creatures at the beginning of an encounter.
---OK...
6th- never surprised. always gets a partial action during a surprise round.
--- useful
9th- (and every 3 levels after) +1 initiative.
---Wait, what? The capstone ability comes at 6th level, and then they break Improved Initiative up over 12 levels? come on...

And then of course, everyone gets a tree of supernatural abilities (and stat boosts) for, you know, being heroes. Or something.

And we'll pretend that the hero trees and the greater stat bonuses make up for largely ripping out magic items and replacing the creation system with a kludge. And a premise that, on paper, makes magic items rare and bad to have. Good luck with those CR8+ critters. anything beyond fights with other humanoids with class levels and a lack of magic items is going to be a complete and utter crap shoot. This time you get a cakewalk, next time you get a TPK.

Hurrah. Its easy to see what they were going for in terms of setting, but its just as easy to see that, rules-wise, they didn't have any idea how to get there. Or what the effect of their changes would actually be in practice.

Oh, and don't forget to add in a deluge of half-races. Just to annoy people with a passing knowledge of biology.


By the way, I sympathize with your quest. I'd also like a functional setting, and some decent revisions to the rules. But alas... all is dark.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186122772[/unixtime]]
By the way, I sympathize with your quest. I'd also like a functional setting, and some decent revisions to the rules. But alas... all is dark.

Then I will make my own setting. I would appreciate comments, criticisms, and suggestions for the creation of my setting.

I will be making it shortly in a new thread. I stopped making it a while back, but your responses to my setting questions has inspired me to start anew.

[Voss]

Huh. Never got that response out of anyone before.

Usually people just whine about my 'negativity and cynicism'

I've never actually inspired someone before. You folks are an odd bunch.
Some interesting ideas, though.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186202421[/unixtime]]Huh. Never got that response out of anyone before.

Usually people just whine about my 'negativity and cynicism'

I've never actually inspired someone before. You folks are an odd bunch.
Some interesting ideas, though.

First off, I would like to start off with deesigning a new magic system.

If the two kinds of casters should be "damage blasters" and "healers," then I will make two casting classes that mimic such roles, not being good in anything else. In addition, I will make magic not solve everything, and have non-magical alternatives be the only ways to solve several problems. In addition, what would you guys recommend to limit casters to make them on par? Here are the choices so far:

Drain: Magic taxes the caster in some way, with "overcharging" being lethal.

Put the non-casting classes on par with the casters, which would involve all sorts of big enhancements.

Alter every monster in the Monster Manual be able to be destroyed by a "spell-less" party. Otherwise, make said monsters special occasions, and never be the result of random encounters or "casual" battles.

Have Save-Or-Die spells eliminated, and Save-Or-Lose spells upped in level, or restricted. Example: Sleep deals nonlethal damage, making the subject drowsy, until the character "falls asleep" by being knocked out.

Give characters some way to not be "gear dependent."

My final choice: Just use Iron Heroes.

Of course, using rough game statistics is not my specialty. I am in between "casual" and "hardcore."

[virgil]

I don't know if this will help, but this is someone's work on fixing the magic system in Iron Heroes, if you're going that route...Ironcarnum

Also, as much as it tries to fit itself in the standard D&D encounter system, there are some monsters that will cause hiccups; namely the ones with alot of spell-like abilities, since they bring the old baggage with them.

[RandomCasualty]

1186208035[/unixtime]]
If the two kinds of casters should be "damage blasters" and "healers," then I will make two casting classes that mimic such roles, not being good in anything else. In addition, I will make magic not solve everything, and have non-magical alternatives be the only ways to solve several problems. In addition, what would you guys recommend to limit casters to make them on par? Here are the choices so far:

Well who says the two kinds of casters are damage dealers and healers?

Honestly if you're just looking for a straight damage character, the rogue should reign supreme there, and as for healing, I'm not even sure if you need one for mundane damage, instead it's probably easier to just incorporate a better recovery mechanic. Spiderman doesn't need a cleric when he gets wounded, and neither should your characters. Combat healing really doesn't happen in most fantasy stories except via regeneration powers.

[Username17]

1186208660[/unixtime]]I don't know if this will help, but this is someone's work on fixing the magic system in Iron Heroes, if you're going that route...Ironcarnum

Holy crap that's a lot of work. Seriously, that's a fvck tonne of effort that someone put into that. Unfortunately it seems to fall into all the Iron Heroes traps of poor design (which is unsurpirising I guess because it's designed for IH).

• The system is way too token-centric. Most of these magic options are only used once per round or even out-of-combat. There's no reason to keep track of a dynamic token pool.
  
  
• There are way too many ways to flush feats down the toilet. Want to spend a feat to "have a short sword"? I didn't think so, how about spending a second feat for the same benefit?
  
  
• Even the number of feats that IH characters get is still way short of how many you'd need to actually do any of this shit it's talking about.
  
  
• The number of feats and masteries you have to pick up before your Magic is actually good at anything is so high that you can't actually dabble in it - you must keep flushing feats into the hole or all the feats you've spent are wasted.

Argh. Giving people feats every level and granting them the option to either keep their abilities level appropriate or get new abilities that also aren't level appropriate is not good game design. It's not fair to anyone, and it's fvcking insulting.

You're 9th level, you're fighting a Dire Rhino. It has 229 hit points. I literally don't give a fuck if you can shoot a d10 fire bolt at your enemies.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

1186245879[/unixtime]]

1186208660[/unixtime]]I don't know if this will help, but this is someone's work on fixing the magic system in Iron Heroes, if you're going that route...Ironcarnum

Holy crap that's a lot of work. Seriously, that's a fvck tonne of effort that someone put into that. Unfortunately it seems to fall into all the Iron Heroes traps of poor design (which is unsurpirising I guess because it's designed for IH).

• The system is way too token-centric. Most of these magic options are only used once per round or even out-of-combat. There's no reason to keep track of a dynamic token pool.
  
  
• There are way too many ways to flush feats down the toilet. Want to spend a feat to "have a short sword"? I didn't think so, how about spending a second feat for the same benefit?
  
  
• Even the number of feats that IH characters get is still way short of how many you'd need to actually do any of this shit it's talking about.
  
  
• The number of feats and masteries you have to pick up before your Magic is actually good at anything is so high that you can't actually dabble in it - you must keep flushing feats into the hole or all the feats you've spent are wasted.

Argh. Giving people feats every level and granting them the option to either keep their abilities level appropriate or get new abilities that also aren't level appropriate is not good game design. It's not fair to anyone, and it's fvcking insulting.

You're 9th level, you're fighting a Dire Rhino. It has 229 hit points. I literally don't give a fvck if you can shoot a d10 fire bolt at your enemies.

-Username17

So, Frank, are there any D20 products/creations out there that you think did a good job?

[Username17]

So, Frank, are there any D20 products/creations out there that you think did a good job?

There are a number of supplements that provide good playable character classes and options for magic users. The Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), for example, works fine. He's totally playable against opposition you are likely to face from 1st level to 20th level and he neatly synergizes with a lot of other character types.

But noone seems willing to write that kind of versatility and power for Fighting Men. As soon as your character is described as a "swordsman" rather than a "spellcaster", suddenly everyone wants to write you in as a 3rd level character. Seriously, people bitch and complain when fighters are able to match large creatures in hand-to-hand. Large creatures start in at CR 3 and it only gets worse from there.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

But noone seems willing to write that kind of versatility and power for Fighting Men.

Then if nobody else will, then we should.

I was thinking at first of revitalizing the Fighter class. I suggest making the class gain 4+Int Modifier in Skill Points, and Balance, Escape Artist, Listen, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Tumble as class skills. The Barbarian gains so much more as a melee attacker than a Fighter who specializes in melee, and Greater Weapon Specialization does not cut it.

Then I though of making "talents" the Fighter gains at 1st level, 3rd level, and every odd-numbered level. Here are a few example talent trees.

Guardian: You are skilled in the arts of protecting others.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Int 13.
You can apply your AC bonus from Combat Expertise to one adjacent ally.

Defender: You can push your charge out of the way of danger.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Int 13, Guardian.
If your ally that you are applying your Combat Expertise bonus to is exposed to an effect requiring a Reflex save, you roll the Reflex save, which has the same DC. If you succeed, you push your ally out of harm's way, and you roll the Reflex save to see if it effects you or not.

Superior Protection: You may apply your total base attack bonus as an AC bonus to your charge, applying an equivalent penalty to your attack rolls.

Note: The charge can only benefit from the benefits of one Fighter with these effects at a time.

Reflexive Training: As you select this talent, your Reflex save gains the "good" progression.
Prerequisites: None.

Devoted Training: As you select this talent, your Will save gains the "good" progression.

Splitter: You can fire a large amount of projectiles in a cone-shaped burst. This can only be used with bows, repeating crossbows, or in more modern campaigns, blunderbusses. You fire at least five bits of ammunition in a 15-foot cone-shaped burst. Anyone within the cone must make a Reflex Save (DC 10+1/2 Fighter level+Fighter's Dexterity modifier) to take half damage. Weapons designed to make cone-shaped bursts (blunderbusses, automatic firearms, etc.) add +5 to the Reflex DC. In addition, the weapon deals an additional +1d6 points of damage per 2 Fighter levels.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dex 13.

Improved Splitter: Your cone-shaped burst increases to 20 feet, and anyone within the cone must make a Reflex Save (DC 15+1/2 Fighter's level+Fighter's Dexterity modifier) to take half damage.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dex 13, Splitter.

Advanced Splitter: Your cone-shaped burst increases to 30 feet. You do double the base damage you would normally do with your weapon. In addition, the weapon deals an additional +1d6 points of damage per Fighter level. Example: Light Repeating Crossbows do 2d8 damage+any modifiers. The cone's Save DC increases to DC 20+half Fighter's level+Fighter's Dexterity modifier.

So, how are these talents so far, Frank?

[RandomCasualty]

Half the problem with fighter/caster balance is that not only is there a flavor discrepancy of magic vs nonmagic, but there's also a mechanical separation too.

Fighters have no limitations on their actions. You can keep swinging all the time, and wizards have per day uses of spells. Now, we all know this system doesn't work at all... and it really prevents us from ever getting anywhere with game balance.

It's a bad idea to give some classes limited use abilities and others none, especially when the limitation is as vague as "one game day." I've always found it stupid that the game rewards people for halting the action and resting after every fight.

If you want to fix fighters and magic users, you really need to dig deep into the core of the X/day mechanic and remove it. Replace it with something that people care about like X/adventure or X/encounter. Then we can actually get to balancing magic and combat.

[Username17]

So, how are these talents so far, Frank?

Splitter: You can fire a large amount of projectiles in a cone-shaped burst. This can only be used with bows, repeating crossbows, or in more modern campaigns, blunderbusses. You fire at least five bits of ammunition in a 15-foot cone-shaped burst. Anyone within the cone must make a Reflex Save (DC 10+1/2 Fighter level+Fighter's Dexterity modifier) to take half damage. Weapons designed to make cone-shaped bursts (blunderbusses, automatic firearms, etc.) add +5 to the Reflex DC.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dex 13.

See? This is exactly the shit I'm talking about. As soon as something is a "Fighter" ability it gets pre-reqs, it gets non-scaling, and it does small damage. You're talking about something that uses up literally three levels worth of class features, and at the end of the day it's just a second level spell.

Literally a second level spell - called whirling blade from page 238 of the Spell Compendium or knife spray from page 87 of Defenders of the Faith. And noone uses those spells because they've got shit to do with their 2nd level spell slots. Having a character give up their whole list of class features for three whole levels just to do that is insulting.

Even just stepping away from the big bad boogey-boogey of the Wizard as a comparator, you're fifth level. You're fighting a phase spider. Do you give a rat's ass whether you can do 2d8 of damage in a small cone? I'll give you a hint:

No,

---

The entire implementation of getting a level and getting a feat that you can spend for a situational +1 is bullshit. If fighters are going to gain levels, we have to accept revolutionary changes for Fighters. They can't just do the same thing "with an additional +1" every level. Hell, the monsters get more than a +1 every level, and they do extra crazy crap on the side.

The Fighter feats are crap. Giving out more fighter feats is crap. Giving out extra special powers that are roughly analagous to Fighter feats is crap. All of it. It all sucks my ass with a straw, and that's uncomfortable and I want it to stop.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

So when somebody tries to fix the gap, you insult them?
If you expect to be treated with respect you should refrain from judicious use of swear words. It does not help at all and alienates those who would otherwise appreciate your criticisms. Also, it is just a game. Nobody's lives are at stake, nobody in the real world is getting hurt, oppressed, or killed over broken game rules.
If you expect me to take you seriously over discussion of game rules, then you should refrain from childish taunts and curse words.

So if the key thing is that it is non-scaling and does small amounts of damage, I will have the damage scale. You forgot to notice that the Save DC scales.

[Leress]

*Points to the supplements at the of this section (Races of war)* You might want to read those first, Captain.

We have already been through this.

1186275720[/unixtime]]So when somebody tries to fix the gap, you insult them?
If you expect to be treated with respect you should refrain from judicious use of swear words. It does not help at all and alienates those who would otherwise appreciate your criticisms. Also, it is just a game. Nobody's lives are at stake, nobody in the real world is getting hurt, oppressed, or killed over broken game rules.
If you expect me to take you seriously over discussion of game rules, then you should refrain from childish taunts and curse words.

So if the key thing is that it is non-scaling and does small amounts of damage, I will have the damage scale. You forgot to notice that the Save DC scales.

The thing is... you only have so many feats. Throwing new ones on the fire doesn't give the class more options. A wizard can switch his spells daily; but once you take a feat, that's it.

Also Frank was not insulting you, he was showing that you are using the same paradigm that was use to make our current feat system.

You may want to check some of the older discussions to see where he is coming from.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186279478[/unixtime]]*Points to the supplements at the of this section (Races of war)* You might want to read those first, Captain.

We have already been through this.

1186275720[/unixtime]]So when somebody tries to fix the gap, you insult them?
If you expect to be treated with respect you should refrain from judicious use of swear words. It does not help at all and alienates those who would otherwise appreciate your criticisms. Also, it is just a game. Nobody's lives are at stake, nobody in the real world is getting hurt, oppressed, or killed over broken game rules.
If you expect me to take you seriously over discussion of game rules, then you should refrain from childish taunts and curse words.

So if the key thing is that it is non-scaling and does small amounts of damage, I will have the damage scale. You forgot to notice that the Save DC scales.

The thing is... you only have so many feats. Throwing new ones on the fire doesn't give the class more options. A wizard can switch his spells daily; but once you take a feat, that's it.

Also Frank was not insulting you, he was showing that you are using the same paradigm that was use to make our current feat system.

You may want to check some of the older discussions to see where he is coming from.

To the Bold: Sorry about that.

To the Italics: I still think that that swearing at someone is unnecessary.

[virgil]

Frank's swearing seems to be a style of his, and I rarely see him degrade it into personal attacks, just a way to show emphasis on his opinion.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186283022[/unixtime]]Frank's swearing seems to be a style of his, and I rarely see him degrade it into personal attacks, just a way to show emphasis on his opinion.

Does he swear as much as he does in the Shadowrun products that he writes as he does on these boards?:bricks:

[Username17]

“You need to calm down, dude. He’s a magician, right? He’ll want a clonal hand, not some off-the-rack shit.” He looked to Tani for some confirmation, but the impassive faceplate of her chemsuit was of little assistance.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

1186295515[/unixtime]]

“You need to calm down, dude. He’s a magician, right? He’ll want a clonal hand, not some off-the-rack shit.” He looked to Tani for some confirmation, but the impassive faceplate of her chemsuit was of little assistance.

-Username17

Swearing is all well and good, but using the same words over and over can get repetitive.

Also, I apologize if I assumed that you were personally attacking me. I realized that you are this way to almost everbyody.