Warhammer 40k

[Cielingcat]

I know we mostly talk about RPGs here, but there have been occasional Starcraft discussions and what-not. So I suppose that something in between (a tabletop wargame) could fit.

Anyway, a couple questions. First and most importantly, does anyone here play it? Second, if anyone does, what are your thoughts on Chaos Space Marines?

[Judging__Eagle]

Oh Em Gee.

Skulls for the skull thrown?


Seriously though, I've been playing chaos since 2nd Ed., I'm not that good, but it's a fun enough game.

I love the Dawn of War games as a result; finished a necron game and starting a new campaign with marines.

[Cielingcat]

I do always keep a squad of Berserkers handy to rush people. But they and the Raptors always die since my heavy support units never manage to actually do any supporting.

[Judging__Eagle]

Haha. Just shoot every squad that you've got at one enemy squad.

Seriously. Defeat in detail is the way to win 40k games.

Knocking out a few guys from a bunch of squads is nothing compared to shooting the ever-living crap out of one squad till it's dead.

[the_taken]

1180243205[/unixtime]]Haha. Just shoot every squad that you've got at one enemy squad.

Seriously. Defeat in detail is the way to win 40k games.

Knocking out a few guys from a bunch of squads is nothing compared to shooting the ever-living crap out of one squad till it's dead.

Thus the reason I almost bought a Necron/Tau army.

I used to play Utramarines, but it was becoming progressively expensive. It costs actual money to have a decent amount of available tactics. That doesn't go well with a tight budget of fine food, renovations, video games, D&D, and pack ratting. Plus the prices went up by like 10$ recently.

I've almost entirely dropped video games now. I bought a cube when the 360 came out, and just recently purchased Golden Sun.

[erik]

I used to play 40k in highschool (so 10+ years ago).

I was an eldar fan mostly because I liked customizing up my own overpriced special units (the exarchs, I think), and wraith guard... and a very unhealthy fixation with displacer cannons. In one huge coalition battle [had either 2v2 or 3v3 players] I think my many displacer cannons accounted for 1000+ points in kills... maybe a 60/40 split between enemies and allies. I don't remember which side won, I just recall that the terrain was all sorts of fvcked up by the end of that battle, and I was a menace to all.

My opinions on the factions are likely more largely based upon the players who routinely chose the same faction over and over than the units themselves. I barely remember any non-eldar specifics... definitely nothing on chaos marines I'm sorry to say.

[Draco_Argentum]

I have to build and paint my Tau. Unfortunately that will take approximately forever.

[PhoneLobster]

OK, I play this game, and like all right thinking folks who do so I hate it.

I only play it for the same reasons most do, its basically the only game in town.

So despite the rules being, well, not great, the miniatures being, well, not great, and the company being, well, EVIL (and nuts) you play it, because otherwise you spend a significantly larger amount of time playing nothing at all.

That being said 40K (and GWs other main thing warhammer fantasy) has made remarkable progress in the last decade in regards to being a more balanced and playable game with better quality miniatures. Still, considering where they started, and considering they remain you know, evil and insane, well...

I count myself lucky when the local gaming community loses interest in GW and more games of better alternatives are played so I can avoid fielding my half hand me down eldar army.

And as such as much as Talisman is perhaps my favourite of their line of stuff I dread its comming re release for the distraction it may prove from my opportunities to play Descent, which will almost certainly remain superior in that genre.

Also it annoys me no end both when I can't manage to get the local chumps to understand how stunningly ridiculous or inferior some things, like the newly revised swooping hawks, actually are...

[MrWaeseL]

I used to play Orks in highschool, but the fact that three dudes cost about 25 euros made me quit.

Don't play Chaos, play Orks. This also goes for you Tau and Eldar people. What were you thinking?

[nova88]

There is a (delayed once) Warhammer 40k RPG coming
out,uh,eventually.Details can be found at the black industries website.I played 40k third edition for a while,
then moved on.What's different in fourth edition?

[Username17]

Games Workshop has been losing a lot of position to Privateer and others, WH40K seriously seems to be on the way out. Certainly I haven't been falling over myself to play it since they nerfed the fvck out of my guardsmen. Again.

GW doesn't really seem to realize that doing what D&D does in a game where people physically buy WYSIWYG miniatures and paint them laboriously and artistically is totally uncool. But the purchasing public does - GW's monopoly is a thing of the past and their visibility at cons is a tiny fraction of what it once was.

---

That being said, the best possible way to cheese out a War Hammer army is to use secret army lists. That is, a 40K army list, once printed, is legal on the field of battle until specifically removed or changed by name. So if you play a big name "normal" army like Imperial Guard (like me) you get fvcked in your fvck hole as they constantly run changes on what units of your are good and what units you are allowed to have in what quantities and so on and so forth - my Guardsman Lascannons are a demented joke now costing as they do more than a Space Marine with the same lascannon!

The flip side to this is that if you run a "forgotten" army list, it may never get repealed. Chaos is great for this, because they have over a dozen special lists and I doubt there's a single person on the GW staff who could name them all in 5 minutes. So for example, you can still get 5 point guardsmen off the "Chaos Cultists" list, and you're allowed to take unit attachments of Chaos Cultists if you happen to be Alpha Legion. And you can take Imperial Guard Basilisks is you happen to be Iron Warriors and you don't have to buy the stupid fvcking overcosted fvcknut infantry that the new Guard codex requires you to take (if you aren't playing the thrice damned tank company).

So if you pull multiple attachments, you can have an old-school Guard army with heavy ordnance backed up by cheap-as-free infantry with a light mix of cheap heavy or special weapons - you just "have" to take a couple of units of Veteran Chaos Marines and a couple of HQ choices of Chaos Sorcerers or Chaos Lords in power armor. I know you're terrible broken up about that.

-Username17

[User3]

I've played for something like 10 years now, though its been pretty infrequent since I graduated high school. I have a blood angels army, and my brother chain-played through just about every fucking thing, acquired an army, painted it up, and then sold the thing on e-bay to fund his next army. It was really crazy.

I like a lot of the marine models, especially the customizability of the plastic ones. Unfortunately, most armies don't get a nice range of plastics, and a lot of them are still stuck with godawful pewter stuff from 30 years ago.

I play Blood Angels and Dark Eldar, and have thought about Slaanesh (Chaos), Eldar (virtually any craftworld except Biel-Tann or Ulthwe), and Imperial Guard.

Unfortunately, the infrequency with which I play means that I've had very little motivation to actually acquire more armies - and in fact most of my armies are still WYSIWYG for 3rd rules, and I'm still making appropriate changes for 4th. (Motivation when you play like 4x per year is low, as you can imagine). I'd like to play more, I just don't have the time.

For chaos, I really recommend choosing a specialized force, because (1) Its more fun to play, and (2) its more fun to customize. Of the chaos options available, Slaanesh (Emperor's Children) is my personal favorite, but Alpha Legion, Nurgle (Death Guard), and Tzeentch (Thousand Sons) seem like they'd be a blast. Night Lords are ok, but strike me as being too light on army distinctiveness, Iron Warriors strike me as too cheesy when played appropriately, and the others strike me as pretty boring.

[shirak]

40K is one of the great no-nos for me because it's been hyped by everyone around me for, like, forever. And then I got to play and it was fucking boring. I'll probably give it a serious shot at some point and my army will be made entirely out of Sisters of Mercy. Cause, man, those chicks are hardcore.

[Crissa]

Yeah, while I never had an army...

...I saved lists of my beloved factions from GW's mag.

Less options, yes, but who cares? Your units may not be in the local store, but at least you have them.

-Crissa

[Draco_Argentum]

I wouldn't buy Chaos right now. They're next dex up. No more basilisk for Iron Warriors or cultists for Alpha Legion are two big rumours.

[Cielingcat]

The new Chaos codex doesn't come out 'till the fall, and even then the models will still be usable. I won't buy any special units though, just the standard stuff like Terminators or Berserkers.

[User3]

1180364602[/unixtime]]The new Chaos codex doesn't come out 'till the fall, and even then the models will still be usable. I won't buy any special units though, just the standard stuff like Terminators or Berserkers.

Berzerkers and terminators are hardly standard. Even troop choices may not be standard depending on what faction you go with. In fact, Berzerkers in a non-khornate army strike me as out of place. (Black Legion is the absolute absence of flavor). The only chaos armies i've seen regularly use terminators are Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Some things are always going to be true: (1) Each god-devoted faction will have demons that are servants of their god. Those models will always be playable. (Whether or not you want to play them given their rules is a different question). (2) Most armies are going to use standard marines as troops. Note I said most. Death Guard are all going to want to be heavily converted, and your weapon choices are different. Emperor's Children are all going to want Sonic weaponry of some sort. Thousand Sons are all going to want to be those old-skool models with the egyptian headdresses. But if you know what faction you want, then buying basic marines suitable for that purpose is always a good idea (they'll always be playable).

The first thing to do when you're playing chaos is choose a legion that appeals to you. They are all playable. And as chaos is one of those armies that demands massive conversions, you're going to want to choose something you enjoy spending a lot of time crafting.

[Draco_Argentum]

'Pends on what you like to do. Converters probably don't care but some people might want to wait for the new models. Plus there are bound to be some units that get crap rules.

[User3]

Yeah, I play the game. A couple people touched on some current problems, but basically the people at GW make WotC's staff look like game design geniuses. They have very little sense of balance or interaction between the various armies. And instead of trying to actually balance lists internally and against each other, they seem to be further moving toward focusing on "fluff" and "spirit" of the rules. Essentially, if you want clarifications or well-designed products, you have to DIY (or switch to another game, which has been happening). And I do believe many people are switching to other games (Warmachine is one that comes to mind), simply because other companies seem to be focusing more on the actual game and gameplay issues, and actually care about the functionality of their rules (the fact that startup costs for a decent army at a typical game size is usually 2-300 dollars less for other games helps as well)

As for CSM, I would definitely wait on starting an army. There will be a new codex released around September, and changes should be significant. A lot of rumors are coming out about it, and essentially many of the current army compositions are going to be eliminated (for the most part, cult armies). Also, it will be designed similar to C:DA, so everything is simple (or very limited customization, depending on your viewpoint).

Currently, the Chaos codex has one of the better tourney lists (iron warriors with 6-9 oblits and full HS slots), and some lists that are also very competitive (alpha legion [as long as you can infiltrate] and siren Demon-prince/biker demon bomb armies). And as a whole the codex can put together competitive lists. The big problems Chaos has are generally small numbers (especially if you start upgrading stuff) and a lack of mobility. The lack of mobility really kills them against two of the top lists now (skimmer heavy eldar and tau). Rhinos are generally death traps in 4th ed, bikes are horribly expensive, and possesed/chosen with flight and raptors are overcosted to the point of really being unplayable (from a competitive standpoint). Which is why alpha legion, demonbomb, and IW are so popular: AL infiltrates to get close, demonbomb summons demons in someone's face to get close (making use of infiltrators or bikes to deliver the goods), and IW doesn't care because they sit back and blast you (with the option for infiltration to get close if necessary). Things I would stay away from in a competitive list are demons that aren't daemonettes, bloodletters, mounted daemonettes, and furies, raptors, possessed, any list devoted to a single god (unless you want a lot of champions or running lots of demons), and going over-the-top with upgrades (to units or vehicles).

[User3]

1180455445[/unixtime]]
The big problems Chaos has are generally small numbers (especially if you start upgrading stuff) and a lack of mobility. The lack of mobility really kills them against two of the top lists now (skimmer heavy eldar and tau). Rhinos are generally death traps in 4th ed, bikes are horribly expensive, and possesed/chosen with flight and raptors are overcosted to the point of really being unplayable (from a competitive standpoint).

Rhinos are absolutely essential to marine-based armies that intend to get close and personal (and probably even to those that don't). The trick is knowing how to use them. As a BA player my army lives or dies by good rhino tactics. The key is not to let them get nailed with guys in them - generally this means that on turn one you grab as much movement as you can and then disembark behind the rhino, using multiple rhinos to create a wall of iron between you and the opposing army. Then you pop smoke. (if for some reason they got close enough you could disembark out front and rapidfire into them with your whole army, good deal, but that situation is pretty rare in my experience). Generally you also want some sort of fast assault troops (for BA that's Assault Marines) to leap frog the your wall in turn 2 and create some assaults with your tactical squads providing mobile fire support by running up behind them. Add some mobile tanks to your rhino wall (For BA: Baal Predators and Vindicators), and you've got a good mobile army list.

Chaos can achieve similar things. However, Chaos bikes are better than their jump troop options in a lot of ways, but less able to ignore any unintentional terrain created by immobilized or destroyed rhinos.

Alternately, a lot of chaos armies are really good at the short-mid range firing game. Emperor's Children is amazing at 24", and can use Rhinos for early position advantage and then rely on walking its troops where it needs them to be. Death Guard heavy support squads with 4x plasma or melta can wreak havoc, and Death Guard absolutely needs rhinos anyway because all their shooting options are up close and personal.

Finally, marines will generally own non-melee specialist troops in melee, so even sending in your boltgun puds is often a good idea. The maneuverability that rhinos provide lets you concentrate your forces early, get close for assaults, or sometimes even back away from combat specialist armies. Even if you only get that 12" the first turn, the game is so short that those 12" can be critical.

So yes, rhinos are deathtraps - which is why everyone who uses them uses them as a first turn transport option and then as moving terrain. They're also absolutely essential.

Which is why alpha legion, demonbomb, and IW are so popular: AL infiltrates to get close, demonbomb summons demons in someone's face to get close (making use of infiltrators or bikes to deliver the goods), and IW doesn't care because they sit back and blast you (with the option for infiltration to get close if necessary).

Admittedly, i've been out of the loop for a bit, but as I recall none of these armies have won a GT. Thousand Sons has however. Which suggests your "conventional wisdom" on what makes a good army to be lacking.

And Demonbomb is actually a really crappy army because there are ways to totally hose it - my favorite is Librarian - the mere presence of one on the field can give the chaos player a really bad time. (Demonbomb specifically refers to the Slaaneshi all demons + prince army where the prince takes ~8 minor power rolls and tries to get Siren so it can move about without being targetted and summon the whole army next to the enemy.)

Things I would stay away from in a competitive list are demons that aren't daemonettes, bloodletters, mounted daemonettes, and furies, raptors, possessed, any list devoted to a single god (unless you want a lot of champions or running lots of demons), and going over-the-top with upgrades (to units or vehicles).

Daemonettes are indeed awesome, I can indeed attest to that. Bloodletters are ok, but really expensive. I also detest khorne flavor-wise and mechanically.

Army lists devoted to single gods can be really flavorful and can work really well. Ok, except World Eaters... man that army sucks. I've seen very successful Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons armies. In fact, I recommend them because they have great flavor *and* good mechanics.

Also remember that competitive play isn't just about winning games. You're also being judged on your painting, on your converting, and on your sportsmanship. Playing to win isn't just about being able to defeat all comers, its about being able to do so with an army that makes people go "wow, cool", not "OMFG teh cheez0red"

[User3]

1180458432[/unixtime]]

1180455445[/unixtime]]
The big problems Chaos has are generally small numbers (especially if you start upgrading stuff) and a lack of mobility. The lack of mobility really kills them against two of the top lists now (skimmer heavy eldar and tau). Rhinos are generally death traps in 4th ed, bikes are horribly expensive, and possesed/chosen with flight and raptors are overcosted to the point of really being unplayable (from a competitive standpoint).

Rhinos are absolutely essential to marine-based armies that intend to get close and personal (and probably even to those that don't). The trick is knowing how to use them. As a BA player my army lives or dies by good rhino tactics. The key is not to let them get nailed with guys in them - generally this means that on turn one you grab as much movement as you can and then disembark behind the rhino, using multiple rhinos to create a wall of iron between you and the opposing army. Then you pop smoke. (if for some reason they got close enough you could disembark out front and rapidfire into them with your whole army, good deal, but that situation is pretty rare in my experience). Generally you also want some sort of fast assault troops (for BA that's Assault Marines) to leap frog the your wall in turn 2 and create some assaults with your tactical squads providing mobile fire support by running up behind them. Add some mobile tanks to your rhino wall (For BA: Baal Predators and Vindicators), and you've got a good mobile army list.

Chaos can achieve similar things. However, Chaos bikes are better than their jump troop options in a lot of ways, but less able to ignore any unintentional terrain created by immobilized or destroyed rhinos.

BA rhino's are a little better than just regular rhinos (turbocharged engines help a lot, and soon they're dropping to 40 pts w/ smoke and turbocharged). Rhino's are hardly essential for MEQ's. Loyalists do much better with drop pods. And I have used the rhino wall in the past, but in my experience it's usually better to just go with infiltrate, because at most all you get is an additional 6 inches (one turn) of rhino use, then it's a 58 pt piece of terrain (which can also constrict your own lane). The reason I don't feel it's a good mobility investment is because you're not actually using it most of the time for mobility. The rhino's best use is to create chokepoints and firelanes. Under the 4th ed rules, the only really effective transports are the skimmers (due to being practically unkillable for Eldar, and cheap and effective for Tau). Everything else (unless you have some special rule) makes them too unreliable, with the pin check for them being destroyed.

The only way to make rhino's function at all as a transport is to attempt to run fully mechanized (all rhinos, with other vehicles as support). Have many redundant units, so when (inevitably) some things get pinned, you still have enough to survive intact (and can hopefully block shooting lanes with the assaults from surviving rhinos). But this can still be screwed by many factors.

Alternately, a lot of chaos armies are really good at the short-mid range firing game. Emperor's Children is amazing at 24", and can use Rhinos for early position advantage and then rely on walking its troops where it needs them to be. Death Guard heavy support squads with 4x plasma or melta can wreak havoc, and Death Guard absolutely needs rhinos anyway because all their shooting options are up close and personal.

I played both EC and DG. Problem with the mid-range game against most armies is that EC either will lose to people who want to dedicate to assault (because they don't have the mobility to avoid most quality assault troops, and they have to get too close to be effective), or they lose to a true shooting army because they can't keep range. Best way I've found to try dedicated EC is with only 1 or 2 units of true Noise marines, then run the rest like a regular Black legion (taking advantage of the fact that MoS still gives most weapon options). Bonus of doing this is you will get your 6-man las/plas squads with a free champ upgrade (who you upgrade to make him good in H2H). I like infiltrate on the noise marines, and summon demons of of them.

DG suffer from the same problems, only worse because they don't get to use regular weapons. Their range is really really short, and rhinos are a worse investment for them. If they blow with guys in them, it negates one of the advantages of the army (higher than normal toughness). I've again gone to infiltrate with them, with maybe a couple specialist squads in rhinos to hug the sides and hopefully strike from the flanks.

Finally, marines will generally own non-melee specialist troops in melee, so even sending in your boltgun puds is often a good idea. The maneuverability that rhinos provide lets you concentrate your forces early, get close for assaults, or sometimes even back away from combat specialist armies. Even if you only get that 12" the first turn, the game is so short that those 12" can be critical.

So yes, rhinos are deathtraps - which is why everyone who uses them uses them as a first turn transport option and then as moving terrain. They're also absolutely essential.

Again, that 12 inches is really only 6, since they could've just walked that far. Hopefully the new CSM codex will follow the DA and upcoming BA update in dropping the rhino's price. As it is, no top-tier competitive army uses rhinos. "Everyone" does not use them, and they are more often than not a waste of points. Loyalists are much better off with drop pods, and most chaos lists either ignore them all-together (IW) or use infiltrate to get key units in position.

Which is why alpha legion, demonbomb, and IW are so popular: AL infiltrates to get close, demonbomb summons demons in someone's face to get close (making use of infiltrators or bikes to deliver the goods), and IW doesn't care because they sit back and blast you (with the option for infiltration to get close if necessary).

Admittedly, i've been out of the loop for a bit, but as I recall none of these armies have won a GT. Thousand Sons has however. Which suggests your "conventional wisdom" on what makes a good army to be lacking.

IW has won GT's, numerous ones. And remember (as you mention earlier), North American GT's are not based solely on an army's effectiveness, there's a lot of extraneous things that go into overall winner. 40k's tourney system is hardly like a CCG, where the cream rises. There's a lot of non-tabletop stuff that goes into effectiveness. Since you've "been out of the loop", maybe you should actually research some of this before criticizing my knowledge of the subject. IW, Zilla 'nids, and Mech Eldar are generally considered to be the 3 most effective all-around armies. TS are also considered to be one of the least-effective armies (although based on rumors, this might change very soon).

And Demonbomb is actually a really crappy army because there are ways to totally hose it - my favorite is Librarian - the mere presence of one on the field can give the chaos player a really bad time. (Demonbomb specifically refers to the Slaaneshi all demons + prince army where the prince takes ~8 minor power rolls and tries to get Siren so it can move about without being targetted and summon the whole army next to the enemy.)

There are ways to totally hose ANY army. Also, demonbomb is any army where the whole goal is to deliver masses of demons to the enemy as quick as possible. Siren prince is one way, large infiltrating squad another way, and bikes turbo-boosted is yet another. The fact that one army (loyalist marines) has one thing to make one manner of bombing difficult (not even impossible, just difficult) hardly means it's a crappy list. Your advice about using a librarian is undoubtedly very useful for orks :/ .I've often said it's overrated, but a solid wordbearer list based around the demonbomb can be very effective, especially if you can get the first turn.

Things I would stay away from in a competitive list are demons that aren't daemonettes, bloodletters, mounted daemonettes, and furies, raptors, possessed, any list devoted to a single god (unless you want a lot of champions or running lots of demons), and going over-the-top with upgrades (to units or vehicles).

Daemonettes are indeed awesome, I can indeed attest to that. Bloodletters are ok, but really expensive. I also detest khorne flavor-wise and mechanically.

Bloodletters are very expensive, but they at least have some survivability with their power-armor codpiece. Can't really comment on the flavor of khorne (personal preferences) but mechanically they are pretty bad.

Army lists devoted to single gods can be really flavorful and can work really well. Ok, except World Eaters... man that army sucks. I've seen very successful Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons armies. In fact, I recommend them because they have great flavor *and* good mechanics.

Also remember that competitive play isn't just about winning games. You're also being judged on your painting, on your converting, and on your sportsmanship. Playing to win isn't just about being able to defeat all comers, its about being able to do so with an army that makes people go "wow, cool", not "OMFG teh cheez0red"

See, I was addressing the question as one of tabletop effectiveness. This really surprised me to see on this board of all places. If you replace {Army list devoted to single god} with {melee class} and the lists you named with monk, paladin, and fighter, this would be one of the WotC posts that are so often flamed around here. The mechanics for god-based cult lists SUCK! You give up lots of options, and make your squads ungodly expensive for the benefit of saving 13 (10 for chosen) points per unit that 1. fits a specific number and 2. was gonna get a champion upgrade. Also, since there's only 2 gods with demons that aren't trash anyways, the +1 summoning isn't even that good.

And that paragraph is followed by one that essentially says "well, it doesn't matter if your character sucks, as long as it's a cool concept and you are having fun". You can create any character and have fun, and you can play any army and have fun. But that does not mean that any character or army is effective. I was attempting to address concerns about making an EFFECTIVE CHAOS ARMY. Not how happy you can make fluff fanboys, or how cool you can paint. Also, there are some tourneys (the UK GT is one big one) where tabletop effectiveness is all that matters.

[User3]

1180463744[/unixtime]]
The only way to make rhino's function at all as a transport is to attempt to run fully mechanized (all rhinos, with other vehicles as support). Have many redundant units, so when (inevitably) some things get pinned, you still have enough to survive intact (and can hopefully block shooting lanes with the assaults from surviving rhinos). But this can still be screwed by many factors.

Well, redundancy is a good thing anyway. So there's no reason to discourage rhinos because they also encourage redundant thinking.

Alternately, a lot of chaos armies are really good at the short-mid range firing game. Emperor's Children is amazing at 24", and can use Rhinos for early position advantage and then rely on walking its troops where it needs them to be. Death Guard heavy support squads with 4x plasma or melta can wreak havoc, and Death Guard absolutely needs rhinos anyway because all their shooting options are up close and personal.

I played both EC and DG. Problem with the mid-range game against most armies is that EC either will lose to people who want to dedicate to assault (because they don't have the mobility to avoid most quality assault troops, and they have to get too close to be effective), or they lose to a true shooting army because they can't keep range. Best way I've found to try dedicated EC is with only 1 or 2 units of true Noise marines, then run the rest like a regular Black legion (taking advantage of the fact that MoS still gives most weapon options). Bonus of doing this is you will get your 6-man las/plas squads with a free champ upgrade (who you upgrade to make him good in H2H). I like infiltrate on the noise marines, and summon demons of of them.

DG suffer from the same problems, only worse because they don't get to use regular weapons. Their range is really really short, and rhinos are a worse investment for them. If they blow with guys in them, it negates one of the advantages of the army (higher than normal toughness). I've again gone to infiltrate with them, with maybe a couple specialist squads in rhinos to hug the sides and hopefully strike from the flanks.

I'll agree you can go with infiltration. There are however disadvantages. One of the advantages of rhinos is that you can use your 12" for repositioning as well as advancing. The second advantage is that any which do survive to the lategame can be used for transports as needed. Once you've infiltrated a squad you've committed to them being there more or less. Which isn't to say infiltration is bad, just different.

And of course, reliance on infiltration does lead to mobility problems when you're fighting against armies that *can* "redeploy" easily. (where by redeploy I mean quickly move units around the board - i guess things like summoning are vaguely similar - rapid coalescence of military presence certainly qualifies).

Finally, marines will generally own non-melee specialist troops in melee, so even sending in your boltgun puds is often a good idea. The maneuverability that rhinos provide lets you concentrate your forces early, get close for assaults, or sometimes even back away from combat specialist armies. Even if you only get that 12" the first turn, the game is so short that those 12" can be critical.

So yes, rhinos are deathtraps - which is why everyone who uses them uses them as a first turn transport option and then as moving terrain. They're also absolutely essential.

Again, that 12 inches is really only 6, since they could've just walked that far. Hopefully the new CSM codex will follow the DA and upcoming BA update in dropping the rhino's price. As it is, no top-tier competitive army uses rhinos. "Everyone" does not use them, and they are more often than not a waste of points. Loyalists are much better off with drop pods, and most chaos lists either ignore them all-together (IW) or use infiltrate to get key units in position.

I won't deny drop pods are awesome. However, I've seen plenty of mechanized loyalist armies. And every successful chaos army i've seen has had some rhinos.

Which is why alpha legion, demonbomb, and IW are so popular: AL infiltrates to get close, demonbomb summons demons in someone's face to get close (making use of infiltrators or bikes to deliver the goods), and IW doesn't care because they sit back and blast you (with the option for infiltration to get close if necessary).

Admittedly, i've been out of the loop for a bit, but as I recall none of these armies have won a GT. Thousand Sons has however. Which suggests your "conventional wisdom" on what makes a good army to be lacking.

IW has won GT's, numerous ones. And remember (as you mention earlier), North American GT's are not based solely on an army's effectiveness, there's a lot of extraneous things that go into overall winner. 40k's tourney system is hardly like a CCG, where the cream rises. There's a lot of non-tabletop stuff that goes into effectiveness. Since you've "been out of the loop", maybe you should actually research some of this before criticizing my knowledge of the subject. IW, Zilla 'nids, and Mech Eldar are generally considered to be the 3 most effective all-around armies. TS are also considered to be one of the least-effective armies (although based on rumors, this might change very soon).

I do know that BA won a German GT a year or so ago with a mechanized list. That was before the new Eldar codex, however.

My impression has always been that player experience meant at least as much as mechanics in how well armies perform on the table, because 'good' play really is a learned skill, not something you can necessarily explain to someone new to the game.

Army lists devoted to single gods can be really flavorful and can work really well. Ok, except World Eaters... man that army sucks. I've seen very successful Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons armies. In fact, I recommend them because they have great flavor *and* good mechanics.

Also remember that competitive play isn't just about winning games. You're also being judged on your painting, on your converting, and on your sportsmanship. Playing to win isn't just about being able to defeat all comers, its about being able to do so with an army that makes people go "wow, cool", not "OMFG teh cheez0red"

See, I was addressing the question as one of tabletop effectiveness. This really surprised me to see on this board of all places. If you replace {Army list devoted to single god} with {melee class} and the lists you named with monk, paladin, and fighter, this would be one of the WotC posts that are so often flamed around here. The mechanics for god-based cult lists SUCK! You give up lots of options, and make your squads ungodly expensive for the benefit of saving 13 (10 for chosen) points per unit that 1. fits a specific number and 2. was gonna get a champion upgrade. Also, since there's only 2 gods with demons that aren't trash anyways, the +1 summoning isn't even that good.

And that paragraph is followed by one that essentially says "well, it doesn't matter if your character sucks, as long as it's a cool concept and you are having fun". You can create any character and have fun, and you can play any army and have fun. But that does not mean that any character or army is effective. I was attempting to address concerns about making an EFFECTIVE CHAOS ARMY. Not how happy you can make fluff fanboys, or how cool you can paint. Also, there are some tourneys (the UK GT is one big one) where tabletop effectiveness is all that matters.

Huh, I was under the impression that all GTs took painting/conversion into consideration.

The difference is that no one judges your D+D character in any mechanical way on how flavorful it is. Whereas in WH40k you get scored equally on flavor as you do on effectiveness.

In addition to that, any given class in D+D has no flavor advantage. That's not true in WH40k. Many chaos armies have a clear flavor advantage over most other armies. The sky is the limit for conversion potential, which means few or no other armies are going to look at all like yours, and the fluff almost writes itself. Compare to loyalist marines, where the idea of 'uniform' limits the ability to differentiate your army from others. And something like Tyranids doesn't and can't have much of a backstory because it really is just like every other Tyranid army. Chaos is the most individual list - that's a real strength, and you should play to that individuality.

Finally, it takes a lot more effort to paint and construct a quality army than it does to build a character. You're going to have to enjoy building your army. And that makes theme and flavor really important, because otherwise you'll either never finish or do a substandard job.

So I think flavor is just as important, if not more so, than mechanics for building a competitive army list.

[Username17]

Rhinos are the opposite of Star Trek Movies. The Odd editions are good, the Even editions are bad.

Rhinos were aw inspiring must-haves in WH40K 1st and 3rd edition, and worthless death traps in 2nd and 4th edition.

-Username17

[User3]

1180467835[/unixtime]]

1180463744[/unixtime]]
The only way to make rhino's function at all as a transport is to attempt to run fully mechanized (all rhinos, with other vehicles as support). Have many redundant units, so when (inevitably) some things get pinned, you still have enough to survive intact (and can hopefully block shooting lanes with the assaults from surviving rhinos). But this can still be screwed by many factors.

Well, redundancy is a good thing anyway. So there's no reason to discourage rhinos because they also encourage redundant thinking.

It can be a good thing. But taking redundant bad units isn't a good thing. Redundancy is just the only way to make a sub-par option (rhino) playable

Alternately, a lot of chaos armies are really good at the short-mid range firing game. Emperor's Children is amazing at 24", and can use Rhinos for early position advantage and then rely on walking its troops where it needs them to be. Death Guard heavy support squads with 4x plasma or melta can wreak havoc, and Death Guard absolutely needs rhinos anyway because all their shooting options are up close and personal.

I played both EC and DG. Problem with the mid-range game against most armies is that EC either will lose to people who want to dedicate to assault (because they don't have the mobility to avoid most quality assault troops, and they have to get too close to be effective), or they lose to a true shooting army because they can't keep range. Best way I've found to try dedicated EC is with only 1 or 2 units of true Noise marines, then run the rest like a regular Black legion (taking advantage of the fact that MoS still gives most weapon options). Bonus of doing this is you will get your 6-man las/plas squads with a free champ upgrade (who you upgrade to make him good in H2H). I like infiltrate on the noise marines, and summon demons of of them.

DG suffer from the same problems, only worse because they don't get to use regular weapons. Their range is really really short, and rhinos are a worse investment for them. If they blow with guys in them, it negates one of the advantages of the army (higher than normal toughness). I've again gone to infiltrate with them, with maybe a couple specialist squads in rhinos to hug the sides and hopefully strike from the flanks.

I'll agree you can go with infiltration. There are however disadvantages. One of the advantages of rhinos is that you can use your 12" for repositioning as well as advancing. The second advantage is that any which do survive to the lategame can be used for transports as needed. Once you've infiltrated a squad you've committed to them being there more or less. Which isn't to say infiltration is bad, just different.

And of course, reliance on infiltration does lead to mobility problems when you're fighting against armies that *can* "redeploy" easily. (where by redeploy I mean quickly move units around the board - i guess things like summoning are vaguely similar - rapid coalescence of military presence certainly qualifies).

Any army that can swiftly redeploy won't have any problems with a few rhinos. And you keep saying that rhinos are reliable transport, when they aren't. If that rhino gets blown up, essentially the contents will take some casualties and lose a turn. And as you said before, since turns are so few in number, missing one can be a big deal. Infiltration isn't always optimal, but it's the best option chaos has.

Finally, marines will generally own non-melee specialist troops in melee, so even sending in your boltgun puds is often a good idea. The maneuverability that rhinos provide lets you concentrate your forces early, get close for assaults, or sometimes even back away from combat specialist armies. Even if you only get that 12" the first turn, the game is so short that those 12" can be critical.

So yes, rhinos are deathtraps - which is why everyone who uses them uses them as a first turn transport option and then as moving terrain. They're also absolutely essential.

Again, that 12 inches is really only 6, since they could've just walked that far. Hopefully the new CSM codex will follow the DA and upcoming BA update in dropping the rhino's price. As it is, no top-tier competitive army uses rhinos. "Everyone" does not use them, and they are more often than not a waste of points. Loyalists are much better off with drop pods, and most chaos lists either ignore them all-together (IW) or use infiltrate to get key units in position.

I won't deny drop pods are awesome. However, I've seen plenty of mechanized loyalist armies. And every successful chaos army i've seen has had some rhinos.

Just because you have seen them does not make them effective. Again, I am not sure you have played in a competitive environment. AL, IW, and demonbomb armies all make little or no use of rhinos. And they are the most effective chaos forces.

Admittedly, i've been out of the loop for a bit, but as I recall none of these armies have won a GT. Thousand Sons has however. Which suggests your "conventional wisdom" on what makes a good army to be lacking.

IW has won GT's, numerous ones. And remember (as you mention earlier), North American GT's are not based solely on an army's effectiveness, there's a lot of extraneous things that go into overall winner. 40k's tourney system is hardly like a CCG, where the cream rises. There's a lot of non-tabletop stuff that goes into effectiveness. Since you've "been out of the loop", maybe you should actually research some of this before criticizing my knowledge of the subject. IW, Zilla 'nids, and Mech Eldar are generally considered to be the 3 most effective all-around armies. TS are also considered to be one of the least-effective armies (although based on rumors, this might change very soon).

I do know that BA won a German GT a year or so ago with a mechanized list. That was before the new Eldar codex, however.

My impression has always been that player experience meant at least as much as mechanics in how well armies perform on the table, because 'good' play really is a learned skill, not something you can necessarily explain to someone new to the game.

Experience is always a big factor. To go back to the roleplaying comparison, a lvl 20 wiz played by someone who is new to the game (or has misconceptions about D&D mechanics) will be less effective than a lvl 20 rogue, or even fighter (depending on knowledge/experience disparity). Likewise, a novice to the game will get his MechEldar destroyed by a veteran, skilled ork player. But that really has little to do with a discussion about an army's effectiveness.

Army lists devoted to single gods can be really flavorful and can work really well. Ok, except World Eaters... man that army sucks. I've seen very successful Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons armies. In fact, I recommend them because they have great flavor *and* good mechanics.

Also remember that competitive play isn't just about winning games. You're also being judged on your painting, on your converting, and on your sportsmanship. Playing to win isn't just about being able to defeat all comers, its about being able to do so with an army that makes people go "wow, cool", not "OMFG teh cheez0red"

See, I was addressing the question as one of tabletop effectiveness. This really surprised me to see on this board of all places. If you replace {Army list devoted to single god} with {melee class} and the lists you named with monk, paladin, and fighter, this would be one of the WotC posts that are so often flamed around here. The mechanics for god-based cult lists SUCK! You give up lots of options, and make your squads ungodly expensive for the benefit of saving 13 (10 for chosen) points per unit that 1. fits a specific number and 2. was gonna get a champion upgrade. Also, since there's only 2 gods with demons that aren't trash anyways, the +1 summoning isn't even that good.

And that paragraph is followed by one that essentially says "well, it doesn't matter if your character sucks, as long as it's a cool concept and you are having fun". You can create any character and have fun, and you can play any army and have fun. But that does not mean that any character or army is effective. I was attempting to address concerns about making an EFFECTIVE CHAOS ARMY. Not how happy you can make fluff fanboys, or how cool you can paint. Also, there are some tourneys (the UK GT is one big one) where tabletop effectiveness is all that matters.

Huh, I was under the impression that all GTs took painting/conversion into consideration.

The difference is that no one judges your D+D character in any mechanical way on how flavorful it is. Whereas in WH40k you get scored equally on flavor as you do on effectiveness.

This depends on the tournament and setting. And actually, most tourneys don't even judge directly on "flavor" but on some vague idea of proper composition. These "soft scores" are always variable. You cannot make any universal, transferable judgments based on an army's effectiveness by bringing up theme or fluff. You could have all the background in the world supporting you, but if player X or judge Y thinks your list is overpowered/unthematic you're screwed. And many tournaments have this happen. And there are times where you are judged in D&D based on your character's flavor. If your playgroup thinks that your character would not do something, they often will voice their opinions. Or some GM's will not allow actions that they think go against a character's "theme". And sure, these people are jerks or whatever insulting term you would call them. Just like the fluff nazis and people who claim to know about how an army "should" be composed in a tournament.

In addition to that, any given class in D+D has no flavor advantage. That's not true in WH40k. Many chaos armies have a clear flavor advantage over most other armies. The sky is the limit for conversion potential, which means few or no other armies are going to look at all like yours, and the fluff almost writes itself. Compare to loyalist marines, where the idea of 'uniform' limits the ability to differentiate your army from others. And something like Tyranids doesn't and can't have much of a backstory because it really is just like every other Tyranid army. Chaos is the most individual list - that's a real strength, and you should play to that individuality.

As an aside, if you think one of Chaos' strengths is uniqueness and individuality, you will probably be disappointed with the new 'dex. But even here, you are wrong. Because I can assure you that the 1ksons are far more uniform and regimented than any marine chapter. And as for tyranids having no background, background is what someone makes of it. For instance, I could devise a segment of a hive fleet that got broken off from the main. You could do tons of conversions of how different bugs mutated and adapted to fit the local location (this is actually the explanation given for many of the native creatures of various death worlds). And maybe being cut off for a long time woudl allow hive tyrants to evolve some form of autonomous sentience. Or what about genestealer cults? There's plenty of fluff for all the armys out now, none has an advantage over another. It is all someone's personal perception that gives that fluff validity. Just like in D&D. Fighter could be considered the best class for "background" because the only expectation people have is that he hit stuff with a weapon in combat. But take a wizard. Some DM's that I have seen think all wizards should be throwing fireballs at everything. You diverge, and they get bent out of shape.

Finally, it takes a lot more effort to paint and construct a quality army than it does to build a character. You're going to have to enjoy building your army. And that makes theme and flavor really important, because otherwise you'll either never finish or do a substandard job.

So I think flavor is just as important, if not more so, than mechanics for building a competitive army list.

It is undoubtedly true that it takes more effort to construct a quality army than to build a character. But many people really don't care about doing dioramas, or having showpieces, or characters with 50 pages of background each. Some people just want to play a wargame.

And as for flavor being more important for building a competitive army list, that's pure crap. Because there's almost as many tournament guidelines for judging character/fluff/theme of an army as there is tournaments. Making a list that will excel in all of those is impossible. It is however possible to make lists that excel in the non-variable portion of the game, the tabletop. You can have the most flavorful, well-painted, themed army and never win any tournament as you rack up 0fers. But you take a competitive, well-build take all comers list and you will win games, and tournaments (even some big ones).

I'm not saying discount theme alltogether, but people have to find out how much effectiveness they are willing to give up vs. how themed they want their list. And I was only addressing the more objective portions of this decision (tabletop effectiveness) as opposed to the subjective (theme, fluff, painting, etc).

[User3]

1180475195[/unixtime]]Rhinos are the opposite of Star Trek Movies. The Odd editions are good, the Even editions are bad.

Rhinos were aw inspiring must-haves in WH40K 1st and 3rd edition, and worthless death traps in 2nd and 4th edition.

-Username17

Never thought about it like that (don't have any 1st ed experience) but it's true. In 3rd ed, the rhino rush was the way to go. 2nd ed they were mobile coffins, and 4th ed they're close to that