Interacting with Figments& Glamers

[User3]

As a lot of folks know, you can get a lot of bang for the buck with versatile figment spells like Silent Image and Minor Image.

Since I play with different gaming groups, I get a really wide range of DM responses to the way that "interaction" or "studying the illusion carefully" is interpreted in regards to seeing if the creature affected by the figment/glamer even gets an attempt to save.

I try to have each DM read both Pg. 173 of the 3.5 PHB (paragraph titled: "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief):" and the final paragraph in the Disguise Self spell text (regarding interaction). My intention is to show the DM that interaction is a somewhat labor-intensive process. It involves dedicated scrutiny and probing (for lack of a better term) in order to determine that something is amiss. I can't help but think too, that "interaction" is even further complicated for the target of a figment, when getting pelted by arrows, spells, and weapons from the rest of your party. Assuming these attack forms are not hindering the effectiveness of the illusion (say, your archer launching arrows through the figment of a harrassing ninja). Since one of the best things about the Silent/Minor Image spells is its ability to get foes to waste time and actions on the interaction and attack of a figment, while allowing you and your party "free" time and attacks in response.

So my query to you folks is this .... how can you best maximize the figment spells in tactical combat?

All the while helping DM's by giving them more concrete ajudication parameters beyond the 2 PHB page references I mentioned earlier?

Thanks!

[Username17]

* If you search an area with a Figment or Glamer in it you are entitled to a save to see through it (which, BTW, includes Invisibility and Silence, although Silence is clearly misplaced into the Illusion school being an Evocation).

* If you make an attack roll into or through a Figment or Glamer, you get a save.

* If you touch or are touched by a Figment or Glamer, you get a save.

That's pretty much it. So if there is a Minor Image of a bunch of elven warriors with bows launching arrows around (and the wizard has the presence of mind to have them all miss), none of the enemies get a save until they themselves waste an attack on one of them or move through a square occupied by one (for example, because they are attempting to overrun, which is really just another form of attack). If there is an "Illusionary Wall" of a floor right over a pit, a character who searched the area would be entitled to a Will Save to see through it (also a search check: DC 20 to determine that the area was unsafe, and a DC 29 to determine that the Floor has a spell effect trap).

-Username17

[da_chicken]

I find it best to roll for saves whenever something happens that shouldn't, or when nothing happens and something should. Sounds that are out of place, etc. Seeing, smelling, and hearing what you expect doesn't grant a save. Of course, if you've never seen the object before at all, you're likely to study it intently, probably gaining a save in the process. Then again, you'd have no expectations. One person may never have seen an illithid, and simply believe the image before him until he studies it enough to realize it's fake. The next guy might notice right of the bat it can't be an illithid 'cause it has bright green skin.

The more familiar you are with the real version, the more likely you are to notice a copy. Making a dwarf too tall or too short, or with drow mannerisms, for example. Or giving an ogre unblemished skin. Familiarity breeds convincing illusions, and it breeds more natural resistance to illusion, too.

Certain forms of perception (blindsight, tremorsense) can render some illusions useless. None of them specify these as potential illusionary senses, AFAIK. This can be real frustrating to IIllusionists, so if you have a lot of these types of monsters planned, bear it in mind and consider adding these senses in. If a spell grants tactile and auditory, it could defeat blindsense (echolocation) and tremorsense. Tactile and olfactory and auditory could defeat blindsight in most forms. Olfactory alone obviously beats scent.

Additionally, I generally allow a save to anyone in close proximity (i.e., 5 feet/adjacent) to an illusion for an extended period of time. Roughly 1-10 minutes if they're just hanging out. Up to an hour or more if they're concentration is on something else. That's the basic "wait. why is there a draft here?" save.

I've been known to allow Spot or Listen checks (DC ~= spell's DC + 10 + 1 per 5 feet) to realize that something's wrong. However, you need to remember that skills shouldn't make magic obsolete, so this rule should not be blanket. This kind of folds back into the proximity triggers, but this is what you use if they're not adjacent. In any case, it simply allows a save.

Most animals and constructs (low or non-intelligent creatures) probably never disbelieve illusions, although they probably get the point the fifth time they try to attack the illusionary deer that something's wrong. Even if they do disbelieve it, they may not be likely to treat it any different. An iron golem could spend a lot of time trying to kill an illusionary warrior. As long as it wasn't provoked by something else, it would probably happily strike at this seemingly invincible new target endlessly.

Nothing hard and fast, though, 'cause illusions are tough for DMs. Still, remember that your PCs spend spell slots to do this stuff, and let them work accordingly. It's magic, not papier mache and food coloring. Make them about as powerful as equivalent level enchantments, necromancies, and abjurations. And reward creativity.

Edit: Dang spellings.

[Username17]

I find it best to roll for saves whenever something happens that shouldn't, or when nothing happens and something should. Sounds that are out of place, etc. Seeing, smelling, and hearing what you expect doesn't grant a save.

This is hugely subjective, immensely complicated, and directly contradicts the few examples of how this works given in the book (ex.: Disguise Self).

Thus, it is wrong. While you might find it best to do it this way, it is flat out incorrect as far as universalizing rules interpretations goes.

Additionally, I generally allow a save to anyone in close proximity (i.e., 5 feet/adjacent) to an illusion for an extended period of time. Roughly 1-10 minutes if they're just hanging out.

Again, Disguise Self specifically says this doesn't happen as an example of using the normal rules. There is no "There is an illusion nearby" save. If you aren't poking it, prodding it, or taking time out of your life to stare at it intently you don't get a save. Period.

The rules on this really are extremely simple - your guidelines contradict them and are by your own admission almost impossible to adjudicate. Why you would embrace something which so clearly is devoid of advantage over the actual printed rules is boggling to me.

-Username17

[Psifon]

The frustration that I always have with figments is that my DM's consitantly, and over the course of MANY DM's don't like their plans to be thwarted by illusions. As a result, at most I cause one round of lost actions from the monsters. This sucks ass. I agree with Franks interpretation of things here, and most DM's simply don't bother with it. This creates three situations, all of which suck.

1) I am discouraged from using illusions because they don't work as advertised.

2) When I DM, these same players don't use illusions, because they can't imagine that I would let them work as advertised, since they don't.

3) No one ever plays an illusionist.

I really object to this situation, but I can't seem to get past #1 without bogging down the gaming session with rules arguements, so I tend to default to the group norm.

This suck, but I guess I will have to take a stand If I want it to change.

[Machine_Kiss]

Keep in mind too, on Pg. 173 (PHB), it states that all figment's have a AC of (10 + its size modifiers).


So let's say you make a Minor Image of an evasive/dodging stealthy rogue (waving ominously his twin short swords at the foe) right next to an Ogre. Now, regarding Frank's 2nd bullet point:

* If you make an attack roll into or through a Figment or Glamer, you get a save.]

If our Ogre missed the attack roll against the figment rogue, he should *not* be entitled to get a save. Reasoning being, since the Ogre missed the rogue and whom the Illusionist concentrated on to ensure the figment acted like he deftly evaded the Ogre's blow. All somewhat realistic so far, right? BTW, I really don't like that AC restriction for figments. As the AC of a stone pillar and a dodging rogue should not have such rigid guidelines.

Also, how would you ajudicate the above circumstance if while the Ogre is being kept busy by the harrowing dual swords of the dextrous, shifting rogue .... the party's archer was firing arrows and the party's other Mage was firing Magic Missiles at the Ogre?

Would not the Ogre's ability to even notice potential ideosynchracies in the rogue's reality be flawed? Especially if those arrow and Magic Missiles are hitting the Ogre and hurting him. I would think that "interacting" entails some fairly detailed scrutiny and that would be severely hampered by getting a painful arrow lodged in your gooch and a Magic Missile in your midsection.

***********

Also note: Figments, even Silent Image, are excellent vs. constructs such as Iron Golems, mindless undead, some plants, etc. Most types of these creatures acknowledge their surroundings for what they are. They do not even get a chance to save in some circumstances (say, placing a figment of gaping pit in front of them). The zombies do not have the mental faculties to probe, poke, & inspect such a landscape feature immediately facing them.

*********

As Psifon has noted, it really sucks that so many DM's either hate illusion ajudication or are incapable of rendering fair & useful rules judgements on them. For truely creative characters, this can be a real letdown as Figment spells really shine in their hands. And too often, DM's do not like seeing an Illusion spell achieving effects greater than the sum of its parts. A good example is seeing how Silent Image can create a figment of black space (i.e. pitch-black darkness). Rules-wise, legal ... but it trumps the need for the Darkness spell.

*******

Also, anyone ever see how you can possibly even "interact" with the figment cantrip Ghost Sound? How the hell can you? Answer?. You can't.

Edit: Fixed quote tag - fbmf

[Username17]

If our Ogre missed the attack roll against the figment rogue, he should *not* be entitled to get a save.

In general, yes. Note that some attack types from the Ogre need no attack roll - such as Overrun attempts or cones of cold (if he was an Ogre Mage, for instance).

Also, how would you ajudicate the above circumstance if while the Ogre is being kept busy by the harrowing dual swords of the dextrous, shifting rogue .... the party's archer was firing arrows and the party's other Mage was firing Magic Missiles at the Ogre?

It makes no difference whatsoever. The fluctuations in attention to detail, the presence of mind to overcome the obvious and see through the falsehoods, all of it is represented by the fact that you generally don't take precious actions to search when you are having lazer beams shot at your head - coupled with the fact that the Willpower Save (once allowed at all) is randomly generated a success or failure by the rolling of a numbered icosohedron.

An Ogre who doesn't have anything to do except wander around slowly and be suspicious might simply search the area in front of him - slowing his progress immensely and entitling him to a preemptive Will save upon encountering an illusion. An Ogre who, in the midst of battle, swings his club with reasonable facility at an illusionary foe is also entitled to a Will save. The Will saves get no bonuses or penalties for "distractions" - whether real enemies are fighting you or not.

Now what real enemies can do - is providse incentive for an enemy to actually engage illusionary foes. If there are twenty real archers and thirty illusionary archers, and one of the real archers criticals an enemy Catoblapes - there is a very strong probability that it will shoot its Death Ray at one of the archers (and a very low probability that it will end up shooting said ray at the specific Archer who fired the lucky shot).

A good example is seeing how Silent Image can create a figment of black space (i.e. pitch-black darkness). Rules-wise, legal ... but it trumps the need for the Darkness spell.

Not entirely. Everyone so enshrouded in blackness is actually physically interacting with said blackness and receives a Will Save. This can be good, actually, as the PCs can end up telling each other about the illusion in a language the enemy doesn't understand (or have party-specific call-signs to signal this trick). This allows the PCs to very often see their enemies when their enemies in turn cannot see them - which is awesome (although it requires concentration and doesn't always work).

You don't even have to cover the whole area - just the faces of the enemies (although this only blinds the enemies you can perceive).

Also, anyone ever see how you can possibly even "interact" with the figment cantrip Ghost Sound?

No problem. The sound has an origin point. People moving into the origin point are "touching" it and get a save. You interact with it in exactly the same way as you interact with a Silent Image. Only in this case instead of being visible things with no substance it is audible things with no substance.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

1072313783[/unixtime]]The rules on this really are extremely simple - your guidelines contradict them and are by your own admission almost impossible to adjudicate. Why you would embrace something which so clearly is devoid of advantage over the actual printed rules is boggling to me.

-Username17

Damn. Caught by the D&D rules police again. Oh, well. Back to Arkham.

[Crissa]

I rather like da_chicken's rules... IE, if there's a fault in the illusion, then that could give a skill check not to find the illusion, but to find the fault. The draft from the door hidden by a figment.

How do you interact with sounds? You listen to them. Actual sounds have actual sources, whereas figment sounds do not. Same with silence. Can you tell the difference between tinnitus and your TV whining?

Now, if the sound doesn't repeat, it'll be hard. But that's why some people miss listen checks, and you don't need a listen check to hear a succubus using telepathy or similar... Think psychosis.

-Crissa

[Username17]

Not just no... hell no. DaChicken's idea was without value. The whole idea os there being "flaws in the illusion" is completley impossible to adjudicate. If we had no game mechanics at all, we'd have to do it that way, where the DM would describe a scene and little incongruous bits of description would act as signals to the players that illusions were happening. Of course, this wouldn't in any way allow us to adjudicate whether an NPC was affected by one of the illusions used by a PC. Also, like all "pure roleplaying" ideas, it rewards perceptive players rather than perceptive characters.

No.

The rules for illusions are that you get a save when you carefully study the area it is in, or when you physically interact with it. Interacting with a visible illusion does not mean that you see it. Interacting with an audible illusion sure as fvck doesn't mean that you hear it.

You can go ahead and describe the making of your will save as noticing incongruities in the illusion which are followed by the scales lifting from your eyes. That could be kind of cool.

But it doesn't happen until you put your hand on it or take time out of your busy day to search the area and then make a will save. Period.

-Username17

[Murtak]

In our campaigns we do allow a will save without physical interaction if the illusion is quite blatant. A couple of days ago the party illusionist wanted to merely create a one-round diversion and created a silent image of a flowered wallpaper appearing over a stream of lava. But even so, seeing through it still required an action. And if he had instead created something remotely reasonable it would have taken at least an arrow fired at it to get an opportunity for a save.

[RandomCasualty]

1121628869[/unixtime]]
The rules for illusions are that you get a save when you carefully study the area it is in, or when you physically interact with it. Interacting with a visible illusion does not mean that you see it. Interacting with an audible illusion sure as fvck doesn't mean that you hear it.

I still wonder how it is that you "interact" with a ghost sound spell. Apparently you're supposed to be able to because it has a saving throw, but I'm not sure how exactly you'd do that.

[Josh_Kablack]

On a related note, what exactly does the "thermal" component of Major Image do now that Darkvision is no longer infravision?

Can you use it to air condition your tent in the jungle or keep your toes warm in a blizzard?

[PhoneLobster]

I personally suspect the "thermal" component exists exclusively to provide fodder for confusion about major image fireballs.

[User3]

Just to add to the store of interation rules, lets not forget the ability "Seen It Before" from the Ardent Dillettante in the Planar Handbook. They get a whole ability to make saves when they percieve illusions with any sense. Then they can interact with the illusion to get new saves.

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My vote for an alternate illusion system is this: no saves, no checks, no damage, no touch or substance, no heat.... just control of the horizontal and the vertical. Illusions are only sounds and sight.

So an illusionary item exists, but you do not have any special compulsion to react to it. If you see a Mirror Image, you get to choose what image you attack, and good for you if you hit the right one. If an illusionary wall exists, you see only a wall. If you don't check that wall in some way, then you won't find out its an ilusion.

It like how a person believes in the existence of a car in his front drive, even if he doesn't walk over there and touch the hood and get behind the wheel, right? For most people, perception is reality.

Checks can be made to determine if the illusion is wrong in some way(opposed by the illusionists own skills), but this does not in any way affect your perception of it. So if you make a Listen check and an't hear a silent Ogre running at you, you can choose whether to think its a Silent Image or a Silenced Ogre or some other magical effect, and then act accordingly. When the Ogre fails to hurt yoiu for a few rounds, you will most likely choose the former, but you'll never know for sure.

Shadow magic should just be a Will save and only the affected person being hit by the recreated spell. So, an orc hit by a Shadow Conjuration version of Summon Monster II would suddenly be attacked by a Summon Monster II monster that only it can percieved or harmed by him, and that only attack or affect him. Higher level versions would affect multiple targets. There shoud be a translation list of "impossible acts" to "real effects" that works like:

*Flying due to Shadow monster = character being told he is flying, but he is being affected by events and terrrain on the ground.
*shadow buffs = player being told his character has a bonus
*shadow items = player is told his character feels and senses the item, but impossible actions(like stabbing an enemy with a Shadow sword) fail as if the item ddi not exist.

This system puts thermal perception under Shadow magic, but smell can be under either kind of illusion. Exotic senses(Tremorsense, Detect Evil, Deathwatch, etc) should autmatically punch through illusions in their respective area, but shadow magic should con as the real spell would.

[RandomCasualty]

1121754067[/unixtime]]
My vote for an alternate illusion system is this: no saves, no checks, no damage, no touch or substance, no heat.... just control of the horizontal and the vertical. Illusions are only sounds and sight.

Problem with this is when you try to create illusions that deliberately block sight, like the box on someone's head, or the floating cloud of darkness around them.

While I don't really have a problem with purely visual and auditory illusions, You have to in some way address people using them to screw with the other guy's vision in a cheesy way.

[Username17]

Indeed, the K method would allow for a flawless blind attack or an Improved Invisibility the way everyone already plays it.

Oddly enough, I don't have a problem with that. If a PC wants to concentrate to blind all her foes for the duration, what's the big deal? It's a fifty percent miss chance most of the time. You are giving up one action per round to negate half of the actions of your enemy (unless they have blindsight or whatever). Even if the player can fit all of their enemies into the illusion, that's rarely going to be that good of a deal except in the direst of circumstances.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1121764844[/unixtime]]Indeed, the K method would allow for a flawless blind attack or an Improved Invisibility the way everyone already plays it.

Oddly enough, I don't have a problem with that. If a PC wants to concentrate to blind all her foes for the duration, what's the big deal? It's a fifty percent miss chance most of the time. You are giving up one action per round to negate half of the actions of your enemy (unless they have blindsight or whatever). Even if the player can fit all of their enemies into the illusion, that's rarely going to be that good of a deal except in the direst of circumstances.

Well it isn't a big deal when you're considering the actions of a high level PC, but it can be a big deal if you've got a bunch of apprentice wizards doing it. The thing wtih the blinding illusion attack is that it isn't level scaled, it applies to all levels equally, making a few 1st level wizard companions a big buff bonus in combat against anything.

[User3]

Problem with this is when you try to create illusions that deliberately block sight, like the box on someone's head, or the floating cloud of darkness around them.

I've never liked it that most people play illusions in a way that lets them react instantly to all actions, like being able to keep a box of darkness on an enemy's head during a battle where guys are dodging, weaving, falling down, being bull rushed or tripped, etc.

So as another fix, you say that to have an illusion perfectly react to someones actions in an initiative count, you have to Ready a Concentation action (first round is free to Ready). In this way, if you want to keep an enemy Ogre's head in darkness, you can only do it to one Ogre. The other Ogres will most likely move out of the illusions on their turns or move their heads in a a way to not be in the illusion(as freezing when suddeny in darkness is not a common reaction).

Since the illusion will be on a delay for most people they most likely will only be in the illusion on the illusionists turn (being blinded in such a way that others get bonuses to hit them), but will be out of the illusion on their own turn (thereby not having a miss chance or penalties to hit).

Large blanket darkness illusions (like one square blocks of darkness on your enemies' squares) that cover many squares will conceal the enemy as well as blind them, making this tactic less useful to the party (as there are no saves to K illusions, so darkness is equally debilitating).

----------------------

This approach does lead to illusions not reacting to people when it might be appropriate(like an illusion of the party fighting a band of orcs). The solution to this is to let illusions be "programmable" with stats based on the spell's level. The illusionist would get a max AC and Attack mod for his illusions, movement rate, etc, just like a monster. These stats would increase with higher level illusions. Illusionists that are directly controlling part of illusion (though a Ready action) would be able to set any stats they wanted.

So an illusion of roving blobs of darkness that envelop and blind foolios would have a movement rate for the blobs, meaning that some people will move out of the way of the blobs. Causing them to disappear and reappear on foolios is possible in this case, bt it would give NPCs more reason to believe that they are in the presence of an illusion and not something like a Shadow Ooze or some damn thing. This might lead them to leave the AoE of the spell.

[RandomCasualty]

Probably it'd be easiest to just eliminate illusions that blind people and that stuff, and stick wtih traditional illusions of solid objects and sounds. No illusionary mist, no illusionary fog or illusionary darkness. And no illusions that block people's eyes and continually blind them.

Otherwise you'll run into the situation that every group just wants a few 1st levle illusionist followers with them.

Just stick wtih the classical illusion, where you create an illusion of a wall, a dragon or whatever. None of the cheese stuff like conjuring boxes over people's heads. If you want something like that, the opponent should at least get a save and SR to avoid it, since the spell effect is no longer free standing but actually cast on someone.

[User3]

Otherwise you'll run into the situation that every group just wants a few 1st level illusionist followers with them.

By the time Leadership is available, AoE spells are quite common.

Good luck keeping those 1st level Followers alive.

[User3]

So as another fix, you say that to have an illusion perfectly react to someones actions in an initiative count, you have to Ready a Concentation action (first round is free to Ready).

That's not a fix. That's not even a difference. Having to concentrate every round to keep your illusion functioning is the normal rules. Only spells like Programmed Illusion can react to stimuli without constant input, and I think I've seen that spell cast a grand total of once ever.

I honestly think your idea has merit, but don't try to sell it with "new rules" that are just the old rules.

-Username17

[Murtak]

Probably it'd be easiest to just eliminate illusions that blind people and that stuff, and stick wtih traditional illusions of solid objects and sounds. No illusionary mist, no illusionary fog or illusionary darkness. And no illusions that block people's eyes and continually blind them.

How exactly do you propose to make this work? Sure, "only solid objects" is a rule that you can follow. But "no illusions that block people's eyes"? So I can create an illusion of a box in the middle of the room but not on top of your head? What about two feet away from you? Five feet? And once you picked a range, what happens when someone steps into that range? Does the illusion disappear?

[dbb]

I was about to stick up for Programmed Image, because in older editions it completely rocked. But the current version is the suck, unless your DM allows you to attach it to portable objects the way you used to be able to.

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1121804906[/unixtime]]

Probably it'd be easiest to just eliminate illusions that blind people and that stuff, and stick wtih traditional illusions of solid objects and sounds. No illusionary mist, no illusionary fog or illusionary darkness. And no illusions that block people's eyes and continually blind them.

How exactly do you propose to make this work? Sure, "only solid objects" is a rule that you can follow. But "no illusions that block people's eyes"? So I can create an illusion of a box in the middle of the room but not on top of your head? What about two feet away from you? Five feet? And once you picked a range, what happens when someone steps into that range? Does the illusion disappear?

Well how about this...

If someone is inside an illusion, anyone can see them as a semi transparent image.

If you are inside an illusion, you can see out of it as though it were transparent.

So illusions only block sight if they are between you and the target. An illusion on top of someone becomes immediately obvious to both sides.

Also illusions can't be super precise as far as tracking individual body parts. You can't anchor a general illusion to perfectly follow the target's eyes. So putting a sheet in front of his face just means he ducks and then he can see again. And given that combat is assumed to be constantly mobile, he'd take possibly a -1 penalty or something to do that, making the spell not at all that useful for that purpose.

Creating a helmet or box on someone should be more of the disguise type illusions and the target should be able to see through them, but not onlookers, much like if you used an illusion to try to disguise someone to look like an orc or a tree.

You can have combat illusions also that screw up the target, but those should be specialized spells that grant saves to resist. If blindness spell grants a save, an illusion that tries to blind someone should as well.