Let's participate in an Arena

[MrWaeseL]

Link to possible candidate

I say we show off our min/maxing power and rules abusing to someone other than the gaming den regulars, and an arena game is the perfect setting, especially one such as this:

1. The following are authorized sources: EVERYTHING. Well, everything D&D 3E at least.

Who's with me?

[erik]

The whole thing looks ruther under-regulated. It sounds as if stuff from Relics and Rituals is allowed even. Ew. Infinite loops are not disallowed. There doesn't seem much point in seeing who can be more infinite.

[Josh_Kablack]

I can totally be more infinite than you

[User3]

Oh snap! Mr. Kablack just whipped out his Infinity Plus One!!!

[rapanui]

Isn't there a mathematical concept for different levels of infinity? They use the hebrew letter aleph, I think. I believe it is purely theoretical mathematics at any rate.

Of course, back on topic, it might be interesting to see what the earliest (in terms of character level) infinite power loop is, what the most reliable (less easily disrupted) infinite power loop is, and what the fastest (to get up and running after getting your turn in the initaive queue) infinite power loop is.

Or it might not. :|

[Neeek]

1112677426[/unixtime]]Isn't there a mathematical concept for different levels of infinity? They use the hebrew letter aleph, I think. I believe it is purely theoretical mathematics at any rate.

Yes, there are. There are also different senses of "bigger" infinites. There is aleph null(which represents the size of the set of all natural numbers), there is also aleph 1(which represents the size of the set all real numbers, proven to be *actually* bigger than the set of natural numbers by a guy called Cantor). Aleph 1 usually represents the the size of a set that cannot possibly be counted(due to Cantor's Diagnolization Proofs, which are incredibly cool).

[Username17]

Yes. Remember that both the odds and the evens are precisely half the size of Aleph Null. This should come as no surprise, since they grow at the same rate and when added together are the natural numbers.

So yes, the infinite has comparable size. Not definite size of course, but comparable.

-Username17

[User3]

Is there a list of all the (infinite) power loops somewhere? I'm sure I saw at least a partial list somewhere, but I couldn't find it again.

[Sma]

OTOH there´s the Spelldancer, Astral Projection, Artificers and Infinite skills, Balor/Chronotryn Mining and the weird Phoenix Shpechange Magic Jar Interaction.
That´s probably only a small subset though.

[Aycarus]

1112678323[/unixtime]]Yes. Remember that both the odds and the evens are precisely half the size of Aleph Null. This should come as no surprise, since they grow at the same rate and when added together are the natural numbers.

The odds and evens actually have the same size as Aleph Null. This can be demonstrated by showing that for every element of the natural numbers, you can find a bijective map between the two. So 1 maps to 1, 2 maps to 3, 3 maps to 5, etc. As a result, for every odd number you can find an associated natural number and so they must have the same size. Similarly, the rational numbers have the same cardinality (size) as the natural numbers. When dealing with infinity, you get weird cases like strict subsets having the same size as their superset.

[Joy_Division]

Yeah there's invertable formulae mapping the natural numbers to the evens and the odds y= x/2 for even and y= (x+1)/2 for odds where y is the corresponding natural number. So they have the same size. As far as I know aleph-nought is the "smallest" infinity. So any infinite subset of the Rational numbers has the same cardinality.

[Neeek]

When dealing with infinities, there are generally considered to be 2 ways to be "bigger". One is correspondence, the other is containment. The natural numbers are bigger than the evens in the containment sense, but not in the correspondence sense, for example, and the both have size Aleph null. The set of reals between 0 and 1 on the other hand is bigger than any set of natural numbers in both senses, and therefore get the size designation Aleph one.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Enough with the definition of infinity. Back to the Great Arena Debate.
[/TGFBS]

[Josh_Kablack]

1112715667[/unixtime]]Is there a list of all the (infinite) power loops somewhere? I'm sure I saw at least a partial list somewhere, but I couldn't find it again.

Okay, here are some of inifinite loops of which I am aware:
(yes, I know some of these hinge on questionable rules interpretations)


Core Rules

Construct, Outsider or Undead type + Profession (or just having and Int or Cha score) = Infinite wealth (acquired via working over infinite time)

Wall of Iron + the listed price of 1 lb of Iron + the listed price of a 5th level spell = Inifinite Wealth

Polymorph + Awaken + Awaken + Awaken....etc = Stat boosts and +2 HD for 250 xp a pop. This one isn't actually infinite- unless you have an XP generation loop, it will eventually run out (but see Thought Bottle, below)

Planar Ally (and similar calling spells.) + Trumpet Archon (or similar spellcasting outsiders) = Infinitely many called allies.

Simulacrum + Temporary Increases to Caster Level and/or Hit Dice = Infinitely Powerful minions.

Shapechange + Shambling Mound Immunity to Electricity ability = Infinite Con

Shapechange+ Grey Ooze Split ability = theoretically infinite duplicates

Shapechange + Grey Ooze Split ability + Greater Barghast Feed ability = theoretically infinite hit dice

Shapechange + Balor's Vorpal Sword Ability + listed price for 9th Level Pearl of Power = infinite wealth. (Without the PoP or some other way to trade your spell for more spells, this is not infinite, merely very very large)

Astral Projection + Plane Shift + optional Greater Teleport = doubles your equipment on each iteration, so if you take 2 scrolls of each with you the first time around, you can recurse infinitely, gaining infinite wealth and infinite bodies in suspended in animation.

Magic of Faerun
Spelldancer loop

Psionics Handbook (the old one, not the XPH)

Infinite Wealth + Grey Ioun stones = Infinite PP. This isn't actually an infinite loop, but it's a useful conversion of one type of infinite loop into another.

Fission + cleric buddy with Restoration = infinite cohort duplicates of yourself at 2 levels lower.

Fission + Metaconcert = Infinite PP. This got harder and harder to do with each errata, but it never got totally impossible.

Master Dorje + Psychic Chiurgery + some stuff I forget + a lot of gold (about what a 32nd level character is expected to have, IIRC) = Infinitely many Powers Known for any number of people.

Claws of the Vampire + standing on the ground = Infinite Healing out of combat.

Mindfeeder Weapons + abused pet = Inifinite temporary PP.

Deities and Demigods

Alter Reality all by itself= Infinite actions taken inside 1 round with infinite duplicates of infinite allies made all in one action.

Savage Species

Illithid Savant Acquire Class Feature class feature used to acquire itself = Infinitely many class features and special attacks and special qualities acquired. If allowed, this is the big one, since it's open-ended nature allows it to have every other infinite loop in the game.

MM2

Shapechange x2 + Jovoc Aura of Retribution + 2 points of damage = Infinite instant non-preventable damage which ignores all immunities

Magic Jar + Shapechange + Phoenix Immolation Ability = This gets listed as an infinite loop a lot, but I don't think it actually is. Broken, hell yes, but if there is recursion here it triggers off of Spell-Like Metamagic and not off of Immolation.

Complete Arcane:

Absorbtion + Empower Spell + a 12th level spell slot + any creature with an at will (Sp) ability = infinite spellcasting

Thought Bottle + Wish = infinite wealth, infinite XP components, nigh-infinite Wishes and a bunch of other infinite crap too.

Ebberon

Artificer Skill Dancing. I'm not even sure how this works, but I know it's there.

[Username17]

You missed a spot.

Core Rules:
[*] Wish as Spell-like ability (as form an Efreet) + its own "create magic item" power = Staff of Wishes, infinite anything, and you win D&D. This one is called More Wishes.

[*] Source of Level Loss (ex.: Wight) + Source of Lycanthropy (ex.: Werewolf) + Break Enchantment + Restoration = Infinite Level gaining of any class. This one is called Difference Engine.

[*] Simulacrum + Scribe Scroll or Archmage class = Infinite Duplicates of yourself.

[*] Fabricate + listed price for damned near anything = Infinite Wealth.

[*] Shades + Trap the Soul + Shadow Plane Casting = Instantaneous, unresistable Pokeball.

---

Artificer Skilldancing works like this:

1. You get yourself a Staff of Powersurge. And a Staff of Skill Enhancer. And a Staff of Item Alteration.

2. You use the Staff of Powersurge on the Staff of Power Surge. Then you use it on the other staves, and itself some more, and so on. This gives you unlimited charges on all three staves so long as you don't stop the madness for more than a few minutes.

3. You Skill Enhance your own Use Magic Device.

4. You Item Alteration your UMD bonus to an Insight or Morale or Luck Bonus. Then you can Skill Enhance yourself again. And so on until you have all the stackable bonuses you feel like having.

5. You use your massive UMD test to give yourself a higher effective caster level when using staves, which makes all of your Skill Enhancers last longer and provide a bigger bonus.

6. Repeat with your now even larger UMD-based caster level.

7. Repeat until your UMD bonus is arbitrarily large.

8. Go to sleep, safe in the knowledge that your new caster level is effecively so large that your Power Surges are lasting well into next week.

9. Get a staff of Holy Word.

10. Kill Hextor in one shot with your effective caster level of 37,000,274.

-Username17