Player choice on gameplay [not 'optimum', more... variety?]

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Player choice on gameplay [not 'optimum', more... variety?]

Post by Judging__Eagle »

On an unrelated note, if I were running a Star Wars game, I'd steal Frank's adventure karma idea and make Dark Side stronger (lightning and stuff) but penalizing a character with negative karma which would be occasionally used to get the character temporarily under the GM's control and Light Side handing out positive karma which the players could use to wrestle the control of the environment away from the GM.
That could work as a method for players that go for mechanically weaker/harder options.

The more that players take the easy mechanical route (play Dark Side, evil, steal the evil sword of supreme power); the harder it is for them to stray from it. This is done by limiting the character's choice, or perhaps even having the character commit acts that are in line with what they have previously been doing.

While characters that take the harder mechanical route (play Light Side, good, use your father's sword) are able to enforce more of their own choice on what happens in game. Which could seriously include powers like "Tell the DM to go fuck his bullshit railroading. This lets you wreck campaigns. You need a 2/3 Vote from other characters with white marks; this costs 5 white marks."

Black and White

The decisions you make every second, every day, every month. These determine if you are a good man, or not.

In many tabletop games, killing people is easy.

Mid level adventurers can wipe out dozens of enemies that were a challenge for starting adventurers, and in a group, mid-level adventurers can potentially wipe out hundreds of such enemies (thousands if the situation is right, and some planning takes place).

So, the question is, why don't they just do so whenever it's convenient?

Because evil acts tend to influence a character into performing more evil acts. It's a path of blood that gets deeper the further you go along it, and after a while you figure that it's better to keep going forward, and hope that there's a shallow part, or that you can rise out of it. This is almost never the case, but still people think it's possible.

Conversely, why do some people intentionally sacrifice themselves in order to perform an act that will help others, and often will harm no one?

Because good acts tend to influence the world around the character doing good acts. People will seriously copy you, if they see you performing a good act. This is why paladins or knights lead troops, they can inspire by their own action. Inspired people do anything a lot better than uninspired people.

So... a system of black and white marks should be set up; certain types of acts generate white marks, certain acts generate black ones.

Now, a character records black and white marks on their sheet; each type of mark can be used to activate special abilities from a list (any character can use the abilities on either list, so long as they have the marks remaining to do so). Also, marks can be used to buy each other off, reducing the total that a character has. This is done at a rate of 1 mark spent, to reduce the total remaining marks in your other pool by 2.

Black Acts:

Lying/Deception:
-Wielding non-obvious weapons (any item that does not look like a weapon counts; the wizard with his quarterstaff is blacker than the knight with his sword drawn; a wizard wielding a club, crossbow or a dagger is different, those are weapons, or at least they aren't pretty innocuous)
--Wielding concealed weapons (ex. rogues with daggers)
---Using unseen attacks of any kind (this ranges from being invisible to your target, to using a blade poison. They are both effects that cannot be seen, but can harm their target greatly)
-Ambushing enemies (specifically attacking in the surprise round, but not when the first round of combat starts and some people are flatfooted; this is like unseen attacks, but not as bad)
(0)*Lying for the benefit of an other , and for no harm
-Lying for no self-benefit, and for no harm
--Lying for benefit, and for no harm
---Lying for benefit, and with harm

Doing no good:
-Ignoring the problems of others
--* Using Mind Control abilities [This is combined with any act that a controlled subject does; so a subject killed with mind control counts as both

Stealing/Theft:
-Theft (only applies to the living, the dead own nothing)

Harm:
-Choosing to commit a self-beneficial act that you know might hurt an other creature (I'm seriously contemplating including stuff like zombies and stone golems when I say thing)
--Choosing to commit a self-beneficial act that you know could hurt an other creature
---Choosing to commit a self-beneficial act that you know will hurt an other creature
---Choosing to commit any act that you know will harm an other creature [Yes, this gets added onto nearly everything, yes, it's going to make people very black if they're not careful]
---Attacking creatures that cannot defend themselves (baby kobolds yes, but CR 1/2 Orcs vs a lvl 10 fighter = fair game, the orcs can run away; using fly vs enemies that can't reach you also works

White Marks:

+ carrying weapons that are obviously weapons

+++ choosing to help others weaker than yourself, for no benefit (white marks don't count)
++ choosing to help others weaker than yourself, for benefit

++ attacking enemies that are armed and ready to fight

++ sparing the life of an enemy

+++ freeing any creature from a lack of choice (this shouldn't be increased or adjusted, freeing a 10,000 year old stone golem's inner elemental by killing it is just as good as freeing a person enslaved that morning).

[plus some others]

==========

With this sort of an alignment system, "Paladin" and "Blackgaurd" are more of a title than a class. Wizards can be Paladins, just as Sruids can be Blackguards. I'm considering having healing (duh, white), harming (black), outsider-blasting (both), and group (white) and self (black) buffs.

Some grey powers costing both white and black points might also be an option, since sometimes Good and Evil need to work together in order to stop Team Outer-realm.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

It's not clear why would you ever want to buy off marks right now, since they're just used to trigger special alignment abilities. Did I miss something, or was that something to be added later?
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Post by Murtak »

That sounds a little like Seventh Sea's arcana mechanics, where a hero can have either a virtue or a hubris and can pay a drama die to activate a virtue or the DM can pay a drama die to activate a hubris.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

More to be added later; mostly penalties assumed with being too white, or too black. Then abilities that you can activate. Black and White mark pools would act as a sort of passive bonus to a character; with a few categories:
-only white
-more white than black
-a somewhat even amount of white/black, (no more than 10% difference in scores; so 9 white and 10 black is still grey; as is 600 white and 540 black; no, scores will not reach that high)
-more black than white
-only black marks

I'm guessing something along the lines of the size of your pool also affecting the size of the bonuses given.

So, preserving an only white or only black pool would have advantages. If you're evil, you are treated with respect by evil creatures, if you're good, everyone else treats you with respect. Of course, the other side will haet yew. Neutrals are more "survivors" and "mercenaries" and "professionals"; they get respect, but aren't welcomed with open arms by most people.

Too white means:

Our village needs...
-Your group will approached all the time to right wrongs. You only get xp out of it. If that. Eventually you will simply hire teams to deal with all the low level bullshit people want to ask you about. Unless you leave the material plane.

Oh, you really are a saint, your disciples must feel so good to be in your presence
-Your fellow Players will consider you an asshole, since a character with the most white marks is considered the one to speak to by most NPCs; the village elders want to talk to the "Saint" (a very white character), not the people that they assume are her disciplines (the rest of the party, even if they are higher level, are actually awesome).

Why, yes. This is the only well here for more than a week's travel. If it got poisoned, we'd probably die
-People will trust you more often (of course, if you lie, you get black marks by the truckload, but you figured that out)

Too Black means:

Everything is blades and blood
-You seriously have to roll will or concentration checks against your current black marks, if not you start face-stabbing random people.

Why? So? Serious-sss?
-Any NPC that bugs you is seriously up for a face-stabbing. No, you have no choice (well, you did have a choice, except that you didn't realize that a life of violence begets only violence); yes your other players will be pissed that your guy "lost control" of themselves. Them's the breaks. Don't forget to set everything on fire while you're at it.

Kill the blackguard! Ignore her minions!
-People will expect villany from you, and will often try to use it on you before you can use it on them (seriously, expect to be ambushed, poisoned, snuck up on, mind-controlled etc. much more often than the other PCs are). This is the inverse of Author Plot-Armor; NPCs will send an uneven amount of hurt your way, even at the expense of not attacking other party members.
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Re: Player choice on gameplay [not 'optimum', more... variet

Post by MartinHarper »

Whenever bad/unlucky things happen to you, such as being falsely accused of a crime, you can get rid of a black mark. If something bad/unlucky happens to you, and you have no black marks against your character, you can veto the DM, and say that that thing does not happen. If you have many black marks, the DM is encouraged to have more bad/unlucky things happen to you.

Conversely, you can spend a white mark to make good/lucky things happen to you. It is up to you what form you want your character's good luck to take. A store of white marks can also help your character resist the temptations of devils and the lick, providing a bonus to Will defence.

If you are mind controlled, or drunk, or insane, or following orders, and you do bad things, you get black marks. If you selfishly do good things because you want some rewards for good karma, you get white marks. The universe is not human, and does not care for your human motives or human excuses. If you kill someone, the blood is on your hands.

Certain powers, such as Dark Lightning, can only be used if you have a minimum number of black marks, while others can only be used if you have a minimum number of white marks. Additionally, characters with more than a certain amount of black or white marks grow horns or a halo, respectively. It is possible to have both. Growing horns is painful.

NPCs have a more simple system, and are either white, black, or grey. Players gain a significant benefit when they try to convince a black NPC to do black things (such as betraying their black allies) or to convince a white NPC to do white things. Most NPCs are grey. Killing black NPCs in an honourable manner does not generate black marks, but most other killing does. Black NPCs have horns. White NPCs have halos.

Most people are born into this world with black and white marks from previous lifetimes. When you create your character, decide how many of each mark she has.
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Post by Crissa »

With mark systems there's always the chance that players will pretend to be good only enough to pay off the bad things they do, so they pick and choose which good things they like off your list.

'I gave to the orphanage, so who cares that I slaughter innocents along the roads?'

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Crissa wrote:With mark systems there's always the chance that players will pretend to be good only enough to pay off the bad things they do, so they pick and choose which good things they like off your list.

'I gave to the orphanage, so who cares that I slaughter innocents along the roads?'

-Crissa
"Because you'll get black marks, and you can't use the Healing Touch ability at will anymore, and you're no longer providing any allies around you with your +X bonus. You'll need to amass a pile more black marks before you get Pain Touch and the ability to apply a -Y penalty on any creatures around you."



I'm thinking that Martin Harper's idea is a good one, but I'm probably going to maul it.

Something where failed anything critical removes a black mark.

So, failing a hide check in a playground, not critical. Failing a hide check in a playground for Succubi, very critical. Missing attack rolls, failing a saving throw, etc. would also remove a black mark.

If you have no black marks, you can still fail, but you're not allowed to botch. Even against stuff like say.... an SoD. Yes, people with no black marks can't be Finger of Death'd (I'm not sure what happens instead, but they're not auto-killable).

If you burn a white mark, you get a bonus to your next roll, equal to how powerful you as a character are (so... burn a white mark, get a bonus to the next roll equal to your level? or 4, whichever is higher).


I'd like to have a system where intentions matter a lot (i.e. a Kantian system), but that's personal bias.

You get access to Light or Dark powers based on your current pool of Light/Dark points. Grey powers lose power the larger the difference there is between your Light and Dark points. Light powers and Dark Powers have a base effect, and then have their effects reduced based on how many opposing Light/Dark points a character has accumulated.

Or ... something; I'm thinking a list of level-scaling powers; that get reduced by 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 based on a comparison to the other side; I was thinking that if your:

-Light/Dark is equal, you use Grey Powers at full, and Light/Dark at 1/2

-Light/Dark is slightly unequal; you use Grey Powers at 3/4; weaker side at 1/2, and stronger side at 3/4

-Light/Dark is very unequal (ie. the Weaker side is no more than 1/2 the total of the Stronger Side), then you use Grey at 1/4, weaker side at 1/4 and stronger side at full power

-If you have only one side, you can't use the other side's abilities, but your current powers get a boost (+X or +%; i'm not sure if a flat number, or a scaling number is better, since the former can seem too small, and the latter can get out of hand at the end of the game) or the character gets an always on boost/buff

So, you've got people like Palpatine, Jabba the Hutt and Vader; who all have Dark points.

People like Boba Fett and (SW:E4) Han Solo (who shoots first) who are Grey.

Then people like Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia, who are Light.

I'm assuming that the bonus/number/value that any Light/Grey/Dark power should be.... say.... 3+level? unless they have a listed number.

[Note: where listed below, X is equal to character level + 3; mixed mark types will affect this value]

Light Powers

All fiends fear the emperor's wrath!

Into the breech dear friends!

As a move action, you rally your allies. Allies within close range gain X as DR or ER [One type] until the start of your next round.

Anvillania, Anvillania, Anvilla-a-a-ni-ia!

As a standard action you can begin singing the anthem of a nation that you owe allegiance to. All enemy creatures that can hear you (they must make a listen check), and have more Dark Points than Light points suffer damage equal to X. If a creature cannot understand you (due to distractions, or a failed listen check, but not if they have a different language), then they are not presently affected, but they are instantly alerted to the fact that someone of you nation is within range of their hearing.

This ability does extra damage equal to your ranks in the Perform skill, so long as you have Perform (Song) or similar (can also be instruments, and the song can be solely instrumental).

Grey Powers

Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun.

Quick to fight, quick to run

Burn a swift action, gain +30' to your speed for your personal movement speed. You can grant this ability to a number of creatures within light of sight equal to X; you can apply this to enemies, and the effect lasts until the start of your next turn.

Cold Eyes

If you spend a full round action, you may add X to the result of your next attack roll or next damage roll. Note, this is added to the result, so after critical hits.

Dark Powers

They will cry out: "help us!" and I will say "no."

Maim! Kill! Burn!

Any time that you injure an other creature, kill a creature or use a fire-based attack of any kind, you may spend a swift action to heal yourself of X amount of hit points. You may elect to have these healed hit points affect an other creature within close range that is as alive as you are (so, if you're alive, not undead, if you're a construct, you can heal constructs).

I find your lack of faith. Disturbing

Your will mentally lifts a creature. Your Strength counts as it normally is, plus you gain a bonus of X to your strength for the purpose of this ability. you must be capable of lifting the creature with your modified strength score. The creature only hovers above the ground, but that is enough for your grip to choke them. The lifted creature suffers the DMG effects of being underwater (and will begin to drown/choke once a number of rounds equal to their Con score pass).

I am going to break this man's pinky finger.

If you succeed on a grapple check to pin an enemy, you may elect to simply lock the enemy and begin dealing damage to them. The grappled creature takes damage as if you were hitting them with a slam attack of a creature of your size (or greater if you can do so).

Every time you do so, you may make an intimidate check on both the creature you are grappling, as well as any creatures that know what you are doing (either by witnessing it, or hearing it, etc.). You may elect to deal minimal damage with these attacks, or simply cause pain (deal no damage) in order to not kill your victim of interrogation.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MartinHarper »

Powers. All-White, All-Grey, and All-Black teams are possible, so each side needs to do the same thing, but in a different way.

White: regular healing, mass healing
Grey: damage shields (4e temporary hitpoints)
Black: vampiric healing (do damage to heal)

White: buffs, mass buffs.
Grey: buff-stealing, dispelling.
Black: debuffs, mass debuffs.

White: AoE powers that only hurt Black targets.
Grey: AoE powers that only hurt enemies.
Black: AoE powers that hurt everyone.

Heroic archetypes

Things we might want the system to support. These are ways to use the system, rather than classes.

Paladin: White Hero.
The paladin attempts to keep his White as high as possible, and keep his Black at zero. This means that the universe largely works on his side: death rays fizzle, stormtroopers miss, and he always lands somewhere soft. On the other hand, doing the White thing can be hard, and any time he gains black marks his luck goes away.
System conclusions: buying off black marks is expensive.

Druid: Grey Hero.
The druid attempts to do the right thing, regardless of White and Black. Sometimes killing is the right approach, and the druid is willing to do that. He doesn't get the luck of the paladin, but his flexibility in approach gives him more options to get the job done.

Unforgiven: Black Hero.
The unforgiven used to be a mass murderer or other evil-doer. Perhaps in this life, perhaps in the last. Since then he has repented of his sins, but the universe has not forgiven him, nor is the corruption of the dark side so easy to banish. He gains access to more powerful Black powers, but is weak-willed in the face of temptation, and lacks the lucky boosts that White and Grey heroes get.
System conclusion: if you have more than X black marks, any white marks you get must go into reducing that debt.

Enemy archetypes

Black enemy
The big bad evil guy. More powerful black powers, and willing to do anything to achieve power. However, killing him is morally unambiguous, so even the Paladin can bring down the thunder.
System conclusion: don't underestimate the power of the dark side of the force.

Misguided enemy
If the system is based on intentions, rather than actions or consequences, then you get the nice option of a white enemy: one who thinks that they are doing the right thing, and may have all the luck of the paladin, but is actually doing great harm to the world.

----

I feel like doing this right would be tough.
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Post by cthulhu »

Why not track white and black marks completely seperately, and black marks are an ability that the GM can activate, whereas white marks give PC activation powers.
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Post by KauTZ »

Would giving more options to get rid of the marks be too complicated? The system seems set up for having a pool of both types of marks, so we don't want to make it where for every black mark, remove it, and a white mark, and vice versa.

You could fold having no marks at all into grey powers, or go with the more complicated option and write up "No Marks" Powers.

Some of the bad sides to Dark seem kind of... character idea screwing. You have your withdrawn callous blackguard who does horrible things, but that doesn't include killing people. More of a "I walk up to the high priest of light, break his nose, and steal his Holy Avenger. The Evil Cult down the road are going to corrupt this so badly it will become sentient." kind of guy. But no, you are deep in that Dark path, and you become a sociopath once in a while.

The only solution I could think of that is a big list of "Bad Things" that you choose some number of depending on how deep into Dark you are.
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Post by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp »

I'm gonna be honest with you. Morality systems is a big part I hate about Star Wars Saga.

Second. Healing = Good. Inflicting = Evil is BS. Bashing people with swords should be no different than casting a spell to hurt someone. Bad guys need to heal too. Don't arbitrarily take that away from them.
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Post by Elennsar »

The problem is, "healing is just you, know, healing" screws the entire concept that "healer" is someone you can trust to be a benevolent person.

That might work fine in a strictly mechanical sense - but it ruins the archetypes.

Plenty of ways to heal other than "the Lord's grace flows through my hands"/I cast cure critical wounds/etc. Medicine, things like bacta, etc.

As for morality systems in general...then how (when you care to do it) do you tell if someone is a Good guy or a Bad guy?

Sometimes it doesn't matter. But having it be just as good to side with the guys who torture twins to discover if they're empathicly linked as the guys who split atoms to bomb civilians without anything else to go on means that there is no reason to pick one over the other other than profit - which does not work when you want heroes.
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Post by cthulhu »

KauTZ wrote:
Some of the bad sides to Dark seem kind of... character idea screwing. You have your withdrawn callous blackguard who does horrible things, but that doesn't include killing people.

The only solution I could think of that is a big list of "Bad Things" that you choose some number of depending on how deep into Dark you are.
it boils down is the dark side supposed to be a viable choice in the long run, or is like something from Call of Cthulhu, where you pay a terrible price (sanity) for stuff that you cannot otherwise get (spells)

I like the CoC dynamic.
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Post by violence in the media »

KauTZ wrote: Some of the bad sides to Dark seem kind of... character idea screwing. You have your withdrawn callous blackguard who does horrible things, but that doesn't include killing people. More of a "I walk up to the high priest of light, break his nose, and steal his Holy Avenger. The Evil Cult down the road are going to corrupt this so badly it will become sentient." kind of guy. But no, you are deep in that Dark path, and you become a sociopath once in a while.
Like what? Other evil acts tend to pale in comparison once you're at the point of ending a creature's existence. The act you described is a mugging and an act of magical vandalism. That sort of thing seems more at home as a mercenary contract and less as the defining caper of a blackguard.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Even if you're not comfortable calling them "Good" points and "Evil" points, it might be best to avoid "black" and "white". Yeah, it's dumb, but those words carry the unfortunate weight of racial politics.
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Post by MartinHarper »

The "callous blackguard" example sounds Grey to me, rather than Black.

----

I'd prefer to have a less granular system. You could have a system with "white lie = 1 point, black lie = 2 points, eating meat = 3 points, hurting fool = 4 points, killing fool = 5 points", or whatever, but that could become tedious. Instead, we give lesser evils a cap per scene or per session:

Murder. +2 Black per death.
Torture. +2 Black per scene.
Killing (non-murder). +1 Black per death.
Causing pain. +1 Black per scene.
Dishonourable combat. +1 Black per scene.
Mind Control. +1 Black per scene.
Hostages/Kidnaps. +1 Black per scene.
Theft. +1 Black per session.
Lies (except 'white lies'). +1 Black per session.
Apathy (ignoring the problems of others). +1 Black per session.

Honourable combat. +1 White per scene (but you'll probably get black points from hurting and killing).
Saving lives/rescuing. +2 White per person.
Sparing the life of an enemy. +1 White per person.
Helping others. +1 White per session.
Honesty (to your disadvantage). +1 White per session.
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Healing = Good. Inflicting = Evil is BS. Bashing people with swords should be no different than casting a spell to hurt someone.
Force Lightning is a particular way of inflicting pain that you only get from the dark side of the force. That's not because killing someone with lightning is inherently worse than killing them with a cattleprod. It's just the way things are.
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Bad guys need to heal too. Don't arbitrarily take that away from them.
Black guys can heal by drinking blood, sacrificing minions, or sleeping in their coffins. White guys can't do that. White guys can heal by bathing in sunlight, or sprinkling fairy dust, or holding hands. Black guys can't do that.
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Post by Crissa »

But I liked my evil healer that asked for gold or conversions in order to do their job... You know, as long as they weren't going to die during negotiations. The other party need not know that detail, tho.

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

MartinHarper,

Took your notes, added my own comments.

Light: regular healing, mass healing [Mass healing..... yes, but it works the same way that the Dark mass-healing works (you generate a pool of HP based on your level, you spread it between yourself and people within close range). An action that I'm liking is "if you do not attack anyone in your round, you can heal with a swift action, you may still take AoOs between your actions and your next round"]

Grey: damage shields (4e temporary hitpoints) [I'd rather not, I want real healing. I'm thinking that "meditation" -> Healing makes more sense. Most "grey" heroes tend to be fairly intelligent and take their time between actions when they can. Giving them the ability to "catch their breath" makes sense for me. Something where the character burns an action, but doesn't move makes sense.]

Black: vampiric healing (do damage to heal) [I'm fine with this. The character has to burn say... a move action to heal, but they need to have killed, drawn blood, or injured any creature or used fire as a weapon in order to get the healing.]

Basically, "healing" costs actions and options, but should be viable. For Light, it's "you can't make attack actions in your round", for Grey it's "you can't move more than a single 5'-step in your round", for Black it's "you have to attack, but can't make a full attack action."

Note: when I say you heal "your level", I mean the scaling number that this system will use. It's probably something like "level +3", which isn't bad at level 1; and so-so at level 10. Maybe increase the effect via some sort of number Fibonacci sequence? So you heal your level +3 at levels 1-5; then.... hmm, how about, the "scaling" bonus is 150% of your current level, rounding down?

So,
level 1 = 2
level 2 = 3
level 3 = 5
level 4 = 6
level 5 = 7
level 6 = 9
level 10 = 15
level 16 = 24
level 20 = 30



Light: buffs, mass buffs.
Grey: buff-stealing, dispelling.
Dark: debuffs, mass debuffs.

[I want the buffs/debuffs to always be mass, you get a bonus based on your level; and you can apply it to a number of allies based on the same value. Grey should be the area with the most "tactical"/"strategic" buffs, while Light is out and out defenses and offensive powers.]

Light: AoE powers that only hurt Black targets.
Grey: AoE powers that only hurt enemies.
Dark: AoE powers that hurt everyone.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:I'm gonna be honest with you. Morality systems is a big part I hate about Star Wars Saga.

Second. Healing = Good. Inflicting = Evil is BS. Bashing people with swords should be no different than casting a spell to hurt someone. Bad guys need to heal too. Don't arbitrarily take that away from them.
Yep, haven't forgot about that at all actually.

Dark Heals by killing things. Light heals by applying the good touch.

I mean.... look at the Light and Dark powers that I wrote up for a "start", only Dark has a healing power right now, and it's one that basically says "you have Fast Healing = Your level; as long as you hurt/killed/used fire, you can apply the amount healed to other people". Yes, physically torturing someone else or scarifying yourself where you deal minimal damage will heal you, or the person your torturing. Dark is really fucking dark, and they regenerate due to evil things happening.
Maim! Kill! Burn!

Any time that you injure an other creature, kill a creature or use a fire-based attack of any kind, you may spend a swift action to heal yourself of X amount of hit points. You may elect to have these healed hit points affect an other creature within close range that is as alive as you are (so, if you're alive, not undead, if you're a construct, you can heal constructs).

Catharz,

Yeah, you raise a good point. I started changing from black/white to Light/Dark.

The racial undertones were bugging me as well. That happened as soon as I started to write stuff that stopped referring to the black or white marks against a character, and instead referred to characters as black or white.


KautZ,

The "callous" Darkgaurd you're describing sounds more like a pretty grey character.

If they were dark, it would go something like this:

"I'm going to change out of my armour in my room in the inn. Get some plain clothes, then buy some Light worshipper-type clothes."
[you're seeing a lot of black here]

"Then, I'm going to enter the Light temple, and beging exploring around. If I get caught or found out, I'm going to pretend that I was lost and wanted to see the whole of this wonderous temple.

Really, I'm looking for the rooms of the high Light priest and want to steal something that looks powerful."

"Once I've got what I want, I'm going to see if I can find the library, basement, supply room, pantry. If I can, I'm going to start a fire. Possibly in more than one room.

I'll then wait till the fire's are pretty big, and then cry out that a fire is happening; but I won't tell people about the 2nd, 3rd or 4th fires that I've started.

With the people inside trying to fight the fire, I'm going to go to a newly abandoned area and see if I can take some more stuff, in the confusion I'll probably kill. It's now easier to kill and not worry about reinforcements, as now everyone is distracted with the fire(s).

After some apres fire looting, I'm going to make leaving the church harder, probably by shoving bookshelves, pews, tables etc. in front of exits that I can find, or actually locking them, and breaking the locks, or whatever else I can do.

Then I'll leave."

I'll have:
-garbed myself in something i don't believe in
-entered somewhere under false pretenses
-stole [possibly multiple times]
-willing to lie [and may have lied while wandering around]
-destroyed property [multiple times]
-killed innocents or unsuspecting guards

That is what a Dark person would do.

Not only crime, but concealing and hiding their crime, or ability to commit crime, whenever possible.

Heck, the druid with a wooden staff is a fairly dark person. As would be the sorcerer. The rogue with a bow over their shoulder is not.

Elennsar,

Dark healers do it by stabbing themselves, or you, or a sacrificial chicken, or a slave, or an enemy; whatever. As long as pain and bloodflow occur they can heal.

Light healers touch you with their hands. Grey healers lead you in meditation.

Your "healers R goode" idea is a bullshit one that originates from modern fantasy. I'm going to set it on fire and laugh.

The evil witch was the only traditional way off getting supernatural healing performed in stories. I'm fine with re-embracing it. If you're not, tough shit. Healers aren't benevolent, they just heal.

Personally, I liked this one series where healing potions hurt you, and healing was caused by channeling life force into or out of a person who was able to channel life force from birth.

Cthulu, yes, I somehow believe that you would enjoy the CoC mechanic.

I want extremes to result in a loss in Player choice of action. Light characters have new problems dumped on them (and they will have to do something in order to stay white). While Dark characters will have themselves forced into acting darkly in order to remain that way.

I'm suspecting that "grey" characters will be the norm. They tend to be the norm in most D&D games, and I'm fine with that. I just want Light and Dark acts to be recognized and quantified. Apparently the game "Fable" did this, I'm not sure how it worked though, or how options were presented.

Crissa,

Evil healers are going to be really creepy and you might not want to meet one again because of the sort of things that they have to do. As in, they may make the players feel ill if described in detail.
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Post by Elennsar »

Your "healers R goode" idea is a bullshit one that originates from modern fantasy. I'm going to set it on fire and laugh.
If you disagree with it, say so. Do you really have to say "Not only do I disagree with it, but I think it sucks."?

No. So please don't. I'm not insisting you do things any given way, I'm simply stating an opinion.

And last time I checked, that isn't forbidden on pain of flaming.

Nor is that idea based entirely on modern fantasy - it may be found more often in it, but that's not the same thing as originating in it.

Regardless, if you think it makes sense and works nicely for healers to be dark/gray/light so it doesn't matter other than "how they did it", go for it.

If you don't want imput by people who don't agree with that assumption as appropriate, you should have said so.
Trust in the Emperor, but always check your ammunition.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I think it's worth checking out Paladin, which is a Beta, but which has some interesting thoughts on this subject.

Just scroll down to Tip Jar Games, and click on Paladin, which directly links to a .pdf
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Post by Roy »

Don't drag your bullshit brand Fail into this thread Elennsar. No one gives a shit.
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Post by Elennsar »

If you think the idea is undesirable mechanically and/or not fitting with the flavor desired, say so and move on. If you want to flame and troll because you can't stand having an opinion you don't like posted here, then find something more productive to do.
Trust in the Emperor, but always check your ammunition.
KauTZ
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Post by KauTZ »

Judging__Eagle wrote:KautZ,

The "callous" Darkgaurd you're describing sounds more like a pretty grey character.

If they were dark, it would go something like this:

"I'm going to change out of my armour in my room in the inn. Get some plain clothes, then buy some Light worshipper-type clothes."
[you're seeing a lot of black here]

"Then, I'm going to enter the Light temple, and beging exploring around. If I get caught or found out, I'm going to pretend that I was lost and wanted to see the whole of this wonderous temple.

Really, I'm looking for the rooms of the high Light priest and want to steal something that looks powerful."

"Once I've got what I want, I'm going to see if I can find the library, basement, supply room, pantry. If I can, I'm going to start a fire. Possibly in more than one room.

I'll then wait till the fire's are pretty big, and then cry out that a fire is happening; but I won't tell people about the 2nd, 3rd or 4th fires that I've started.

With the people inside trying to fight the fire, I'm going to go to a newly abandoned area and see if I can take some more stuff, in the confusion I'll probably kill. It's now easier to kill and not worry about reinforcements, as now everyone is distracted with the fire(s).

After some apres fire looting, I'm going to make leaving the church harder, probably by shoving bookshelves, pews, tables etc. in front of exits that I can find, or actually locking them, and breaking the locks, or whatever else I can do.

Then I'll leave."

I'll have:
-garbed myself in something i don't believe in
-entered somewhere under false pretenses
-stole [possibly multiple times]
-willing to lie [and may have lied while wandering around]
-destroyed property [multiple times]
-killed innocents or unsuspecting guards

That is what a Dark person would do.

Not only crime, but concealing and hiding their crime, or ability to commit crime, whenever possible.

Heck, the druid with a wooden staff is a fairly dark person. As would be the sorcerer. The rogue with a bow over their shoulder is not.
Well, you took my shitty idea and made it work, I thank you.

But my point still stands. You can be an Evil jerk who kills when it's necessary, without being sociopathic. The "bad stuff" of the dark pretty much says otherwise though.

Also, I notice the Galdalf gets some evil points for walking around with a staff. Is that intentional/coincidence/don't care?
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Elennsar wrote:
Your "healers R goode" idea is a bullshit one that originates from modern fantasy. I'm going to set it on fire and laugh.
If you disagree with it, say so. Do you really have to say "Not only do I disagree with it, but I think it sucks."?
Yes. Yes I do. I did so in my post where I described Dark powers as being able to heal, by doing dark things. I didn't describe a single "Light" healing power. I might even make Healing not be a Light power. Maybe Light gets offense powers; grey gets buffs and Dark gets healing and lying powers.

I also like to break new bowlderized things. "Healers are good" and "healers are female" are two things that I don't really like. Partly b/c they're lies, partly because they are boring, and partly because they limit the stories that can be told.

For a very large RP-heavy gaming group, I'm writing up a priest of the "Goddess of Beauty" that is completely batshit insane, bloodthirsty as Kharne (with the thinnest veneer of "don't kill people who will guard your back, yet"), and is still a follower of one of the "legal" deities of the game world since his goddess is a deity that gives healing to her clergy.

The reasoning and logic behind this character is that they consider everything to be a masterpiece ready to be 'created'. By masterpiece, I mean spreading pool of blood, and by 'created' I mean killed and gutted. They're a character that exults in the chaos of fighting and considers the screaming and noise to be a very unique type of music.

Usually this is a goddess for girls that want to comb their hair all day long (... it's literally one of their versions of prayer; tending to your appearance, or appreciating the beauty that you can observe).

I've discussed this character idea with other players that have been in the setting for a long time now (this group has been going for several years now), and I've had responses from other players ranging from "holy shit, your character is so wrong sounding (bloodthirsty healer), but you've focused on a character that is all about a specific aspect of this deity... so... pass?" all the way to "hmmm. I never thought about that before. Give it a shot. It will really be interesting to see."

If I stuck with "haelz is good", then I wouldn't have come up with that character idea.


On Gandalf, yes. However, I think we can agree that any concealed weapon is a concealed weapon. Paladins use swords because they are tools that are only meant to kill people. They aren't axes, they aren't bows, they are swords.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I like the idea that healing is neutral, but the methods by which it is done vary from alignment to alignment.
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Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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