Complete Adventurer: Patching multiclassing...

[User3]

According to the pricing rules in the DMG, a headband of concious effort as many times per day as you please is 20,000 gp, which is pretty good for the wizard's auto-win any fort save.

Oh ya, and CAd doesn't totally hate bards. Improv is still there!!! Wohoo!!!

And, for that matter, there are a number of worthwhile spells for the secondary casters.

[grey_muse]

What's Improv?

CAd doesn't totally hate bards, but I don't think it really likes them either. I always loved bards when I was younger, and they were really neat around the time of 1st edition and The Bard's Tale video game. Then, 2e hit and they haven't been the same since.

I thought the Seeker of the Song from CAr was a really neat, viable PrC for bard that provided some (comparatively) reasonably powerful uses of bardic music -- until I realized you had to be level 10 to get in and not level 5. Ugh.

grey muse

[User3]

Improv was nerfed. It now can only provide a bonus equal to half your caster level.

[Sma]

Improvisation is a 6th level bard spell that grants a floating pool of two times caster level points that are assignable in nearly any portion (I think its max bonus equal to CL) as a luck bonus to just about any die roll you might whish to make.

[User3]

Any chance on doing a spell-list review for Complete Adventurer ala Arcane?

[Username17]

Spells and Wang!

There are a lot of spells here. Most of them are not worth giving a damn about. For example, Assassins suck my butt, so noone cares about Assassin spells at all unless they are so good for their level that people are considering using them with Limited Wish or Chameleons or something.

Accelerated Movement: This spell is... terrible. The whole point is that it allows you to move full speed while moving silently, but it only lasts 1 round/level, so it isn't actually good for anything. It continues to mention the ability to hide/movesilently while charging, even though this very book has a stealth nerf to those skills that make it impossible by defintion to charge and use those skills.

Allegro: Notice the subtle dig at halflings. It's third level for Bards (which means that it's basically a 4th level spell), and it's just Expeditious Retreat, Mass. And it doesn't work on Halflings. Dumb.

Arrow Mind: A belt of Arrow Mind costs 2000 gp. Seriously, no archer character should ever be without one. Ever. But since it is cast as an immediate action anyway, it should be on most Elven Wizard's speed dial at low level anyway.

Arrow Storm: In case you were wondering, this is as shitty as it looks. Maybe moreso.

Balancing Lorecall: If ever there was proof needed that Balance was an underpowere skill - this s it. Seriously. It's the same level as Levitate.

Bladestorm: In all ways superior to Arrow Storm, this one is potentially abusable when combined with Polymorph. Every natural weapon is a melee weapon - so this spell should be on every Chameleon speed-dial.

Bladeweave: Sweet! Again, combine this shit with Polymorph. In Giant Octopus form, you can make 9 extra touch attacks per round to force someone to make a save or lose their next action. Killer Combo!!!

Bloodhound: If you allow crap like Wieldskill, this spell is pointless. Otherwise it is situationally useful. Every Chameleon should remember that it exists.

Branch to Branch: If you can figure out the purpose of putting a 2nd level personal spell on the druid list that allows you to duplicate Woodland Stride, you get a cookie.

Cacophonic Shield: It's extra automatic damage, and that's hillarious. But in general it's too high level to care about. I am amused that it stops thunderstones if they go off outside the barrier - which is too far away from you for a thunderstone to reach anyway.

Cloak of the Sea: It kind of sucks, actually. But it's one more thing you can layer on yourself because the duration is extendable into tomorrow. So most high level characters will have it up even though it's not actually liable to make much difference.

Critical Strike: It sounds good. Then you see the duration, and it stops sounding good.

Daggerspell Stance: Only works while full attacking defensively, and it grants SR so crap that you don't care. You don't care.

Dirge of Discord: It's slow, but it has a concentration duration. Or to put it another way - an 8th level spellcaster just made an enemy fail a save and lost all the rest of her actions this combat and the enemy didn't die. WTF?

Dissonant Chord: If a 10th level spellcaster needs a method to inflict 23 points of damage with save for half at a range of 10 feet, this is the spell to call. Assuming for the moment that that's a stupid thing to do, this spell will never be called.

Distort Speech: Actually, this is a pretty good anti-mage spell. Expect this to be in a lot of Chameleon spell-books.

Distract Assailant: It's nerely free, but all it does is make an opponent flatfooted for a shrot period of time. I'd rather have a grease most of the time.

Divine Insight: This spell is nuts. Overpowered. And nuts. Good time. It's like Improv, but 2nd level and for Clerics.

Easy Trail: This spell is nerely meaningless. Occassionally it will come in handy, and every druid and chameleon should remember that they know it.

Embrace the Wild: Yeah! More 3.5 form stacking nonsense! This can layer onto any other wildshaping, and gives you the senses of a dire bat. This spell kicks "Blindsense" right in the nuts.

Entangling Staff: This spell stacks with Spikes. It is part of the whole Druidic "I kick your ass with a stick" thing that they can do if for some reason they don't want to turn into animals and kick your ass that way.

Exacting Shot: There are some cool things you can do with disruption weapons - but in general since this spell is only useful to rangers - it doesn't merit consideration.

Swift Spells: There a re a bunch of normal spells that come automaticlaly quickened in exchange for only lasting one round. These are lame. One round of Flight is worse than not having Flight at all. However, an item of command word Swift Whatever costs Level x Spell Level x 1800 instead of Level x Spell Level x 2000 for an always on effect. So if you aren't a spellcaser (and thus have no use for your swift action anyway), you can get exactly one magic item at 90% cost because you have to be saying "Zug Zug!" every god damned round of combat.

Focussing Chant: The bonus is small, but it stacks with everything. Also, if you intend on Cleric Archering, you weren't going to use any spells anyway - so it's something for Chameleons to keep in mind.

Foebane: It's a 4th level partial caster spell, and Holy Sword is better. Noone cares.

Forestfold: If skill-based stealth hadn't been so horrendously nerfed into uselessness by 3.5 - this spell would be awesome. As it, stealth doesn't actually do anything, so neither does this spell.

Golem and Grave Strike: These spells are completely worthless for what they are supposed to do (allow multiclassed Rogue/Casters to spend spell slots to sneak attack monsters otherwise immune). Although it is pretty interesting to make tokens of both for the Rogue. With a UMD check of 20 to activate (as in, no possibility of failure for our Rogue friend), you could be able to sneak attack constructs and undead at will for less than 2000 gold.

Guided Shot: Wand of Guided Shot + Flight = one victory. At 750 gp, that's not bad. Especially since you will likely get more than 750 gp from wasting an eney by this method (and it will likely not take an entire wand to waste most foes).

Harmonious Chorus: Whenever abusing Planar Binding, always remember to use this spell as well.

Hawkeye: Druids own you. With this spell they can basically be a better Scout than a Rogue, and rival the Cleric for Archer status.

...More later...

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

1105983018[/unixtime]]. . .until I realized you had to be level 10 to get in and not level 5. Ugh.

grey muse

At least that's easy to fix. Just make the class let you in at level5. Pity that's just a houserule, though.

[Username17]

Some more spells:

Healing Lorecall: It's a damn good thing that this spell can be jacked ot for a healing spell, because it pretty much defines the suck most of the time. Still, if you happen to be a Cleric and you happen to have a lot of ranks of Heal, it's a good enough spell. Unfortunately, to make proper use of it you need to spend an action ahead of time to make your healing go - and the big deal with it is that you can spend an action to heal someone and get their actions back from Nausea/Daze/Fear. So once you have it up and running, it makes healing a completely workable thing to do - assuming of course that you knew ahead of time that people were going to be losing actions due to status effects. It's a noble effort, but I give it thumbs down.

Healthful Rest: If this affects stat damage, this spell is astoundingly wonderful. If it doesn't, this spell is asstastic. While it doesn't say which it is, I will go out on a limb and say that regardless, the spell is nearly broken when used on allies who have Rapid Healing.

Herald's Call This spell insults me with its dumbness.

Hindsight: Overpriced and underpowered for most purposes, it also takes any mystery plotline out behind the shed and shoots it. I can think of little reason to allow such a spell into a game.

Hymn of Praise: The spellcaster levels stack, and a Chameleon can use it to give the bonus to himself.

Improvisation: It's been nerfed down significantly, but it's still one of the most powerful effects ever. Half your caster level gets added as a Luck Bonus to 4 rolls you make. Any four rolls you make. Astounding.

Insidious Rythm It's just like Distort Speech, but is higher level and not as good. I don't understand.

All Feinting Spells: There are a bunch of spells that modify feinting. Feinting in 3.5 is stupid, and noone cares. These spells will never be used, since with similar amounts of work you could set up sneak attacks in other, better, ways.

Inspirational Boost: This spell is great, oddly enough. If you were at all tempted to play a Bard who Inspired Courage every battle, you would be objectively better if you took this spell. It's a Swift Action that grants a +1 unnamed bonus to attack and damage rolls for the entire party for the entire combat - assuming of course that you had resigned yourself to being a Cheerleader anyhow.

Instant Locksmith: If you happen to have an assload of Disable Device, it's a swift action Knock spell at level 1. If you don't, it doesn't do anything at all. Rogue/Chameleons take note.

Instant Search: It's a spell that gives you the benefits of being a Deep Halfling for one round. Unlike Instant Locksmith, this spell is shitty and noone cares.

Iron Silence: See Forestfold.

Listening Coin: Absolutely astounding for a preparation caster - it is virtually worthless for a spontaneous caster. This is a spell that will make you automatically win one adventure in your entire life - nothing more, nothing less. It being on the Bard List actually means that it is on the Chameleon list - because those are the only people who would actually consider learning it. But boy will the rest of the party be happy with you that one time.

Listening Lorecall: One more way for Druids to own you. It stacks with Embrace the Wild, so you can get a very large pile of Listening and then layer this on top of it and have Blindsight. Because Druids need to own you. In the face.

Master's Touch: This spell is crap. But it is funny. It's a bard and wizard spell whose description opens up with "This spel is often found in the repetoire of adventurers who specialize in casting arcane spells." No shit?! Geez, I thought it would be found in the "repetoire" of people who couldn't cast arcane spells, assholes. There is exactly one use for this spell, and it is in getting Exotic Wepaon Prfoficiencies. Everything they tell you to do with it in the overly-worded spell description is retarded.

Mindless Rage: Combined with halfway decent tactics and mobility effects, this spell makes you own people. Note: opponent targetted by Mindless Rage cannot run or charge. So he makes a double move towards you, you make a double move away. Your friends all charge that jerk. Rinse and repeat. This is one of the best attack spells I have ever seen.

Nature's Favor: It's back. It's still overpowered. You can still use it on yourself as a Druid. It's a druid spell. WTF.

Nightstalker's Transformation: This spell is pretty crap. Except, of course, for the fact that Rogues can jack themselves up by duplicating it with UMD.

Protege: This spell is shit.

Sniper's Eye: Sufficiently good that Rogues and Chameleons should take note. Or it would be, except...

Sniper's Shot: All I'm saying is that a Command Activated Sniper's Shot vizer costs 1800 gold. It's hillarious.

Sonic Weapon: Part and parcel of the Wizard Archer that this book keeps wanting you to play as. It's a d6 of Sonic damage, at high level the description that comes to mind is "Eh. Might as well."

Spectral Weapon: There's probably something broken to do with this thing, involving Sneak Attacks I'm thinking, but I don't see it immediately and don't care. Expect this spell to never be used.

Tactical Precision: This spell is occassionally very nice. The Fighter wil continue to thank you for casting this spell until both he and you suck beyond redemption (what with him being a Fighter and you being a Bard).

Train Animal: Since the extra tricks are learned immediately when you cast the spell - it's just like Animal Messenger except better in all ways. A complete (if extremely minor) powerup for Druids.

Vine Strike: Like Grave Strike, this spell is to be used on magic items by Rogues. And not under any other circumstances.

Wail of Doom: This is a great multi-target save or die spell. Multiple targets, no allowed actions for the rest of combat on a failed save, small amount of damage, and (admittedly small) debilitating effects even on a successful save. This spell sets the bar for what makes an effective 5th level attack spell. Chameleons tkae note.

War Cry: If for some reason you were making a Bard Cavalier, this spell would be integral to oyur build. If, as is more likely, you are using Magic Items or Chameleon spell slots to move this onto a pounce-build - it's a huge powerup.

Wracking Touch: It turns a non-sneak attack into a sneak attack, which means that it can trigger all kinds of crazy crap. But for its "normal" use - it is sucky.

Wraithstrike: This spell is in all ways superior to those stupid Feint spells. And it still sucks.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

Healing Lorecall: It's a damn good thing that this spell can be jacked ot for a healing spell, because it pretty much defines the suck most of the time. Still, if you happen to be a Cleric and you happen to have a lot of ranks of Heal, it's a good enough spell.

Holy Smackdown! It's me!!

TA

[The_Hanged_Man]

Frank, I think I like reading your descriptions more than reading, or even using, the spells.

I don't get why you hate Feint so much. It lets you blow a ton of skill points so you don't have to worry about taking Use Magic Device or Listen, things you require lots of dice rolls and paying attention and stuff. Feint lets you not have to roll as many attacks, leaving more time for drinking beer, getting the last slice of pizza, and looking for good football or Simpson's on TV, or maybe playing Gauntlet (assuming you're playing at my friend Thaine's house, w/ big-screen HDTV - it's totally worth it.)

[Thoth_Amon]

Valkyrie needs food?

TA

[The_Hanged_Man]

Elf needs Food Badly! Man, that's a great game.

[grey_muse]

1106171605[/unixtime]]At least that's easy to fix. Just make the class let you in at level5. Pity that's just a houserule, though.

Right. The catch is that as the DM, most players won't want to play a bard anyway, and as the player, there's a good chance (in my experience) that the DM won't lower the requirements on the PrC.

*shrug* It's a shame, really. I love the idea of music as a powerful force, but the bard is total ass.

grey muse

[User3]

FRank mentioned something a few times when talking about Complete Adventure's spells. That being, you can craft magic items for "swift action" spells with command words -- that are also uttered as swift actions ???

Can someone clarify this? I thought command-word magic items took 1 standard action to activate.

thanks.

[Oberoni]

So, did anyone notice that 3.5 now has two versions of Forestfold? Complete Divine and Complete Adventurer?

Oddly enough, Divine's blows, but Adventurer's is still amazing.

[Lago_AM3P]

I fucking hate swift action spells.

They're designed so that they're bigger pieces of crap than real spells, but the thing is that you can cast them alongside real spells.

Except that most swift spells do stupid crap like last for one round. So they're not worth anything.

All swift spells serve to do is to remind paladins, assassins, and rangers how much they suck and then to remind non-casters how much they REALLY suck.

But at least they're a really good consolation prize for rogues, who got jacked hardcore by this book.

[Wrenfield]

1107834706[/unixtime]]I fvcking hate swift action spells.

They're designed so that they're bigger pieces of crap than real spells, but the thing is that you can cast them alongside real spells.

Except that most swift spells do stupid crap like last for one round. So they're not worth anything.

All swift spells serve to do is to remind paladins, assassins, and rangers how much they suck and then to remind non-casters how much they REALLY suck.

But at least they're a really good consolation prize for rogues, who got jacked hardcore by this book.

You're looking at those swift spells all the wrong way, Lago. They aren't best cast by those who say can cast them (Ranger, Sorc/Wiz, etc.). They are best cast and used in magical item manufacturing by Artificers and Chameleons. Which are the hot, new sexy way to use weird spells as such.

And its further proof to show you that fewer and fewer people who buy these non-core WotC books and understand just what is happening here ... will actually be dumb enough to play Rangers, Paladins, & Hexblades. Artificers and Chameleons, along with Divine Power Clerics and Druids are the best way to get hybrid spellcaster/combatants, and make use of these kind of spells.

[Oberoni]

1107834706[/unixtime]]I fvcking hate swift action spells.

They're designed so that they're bigger pieces of crap than real spells, but the thing is that you can cast them alongside real spells.

Except that most swift spells do stupid crap like last for one round. So they're not worth anything.

All swift spells serve to do is to remind paladins, assassins, and rangers how much they suck and then to remind non-casters how much they REALLY suck.

But at least they're a really good consolation prize for rogues, who got jacked hardcore by this book.

And that's exactly what they're for.

As of Complete Adventurer, a Rogue with some ranks in UMD can sneak attack pretty much anything. (stock up on those Wands of XXXX Strike)

Thus eliminating the class's famous Achilles' Heel.

I love it!

[Username17]

Interesting note:

The Sorcerer is a better Fighter than the Fighter. No crazy Polymorph tricks, no Fighter-replication buffs. No stupid Persistent spell shenanigans. None of that Cleric-Archer cheese.

No, the Fighter is so shitty that if you just take levels of Sorcerer in a pile and take those damn stupid Swift Spells you are better at hitting people with a stick than the Fighter could ever dream of being.

So let's look at the worst level of Sorcerer: Level 7. That's when you don't have Polymorph or Charm Monster yet because you are a god damned loser. You only have a BAB of +3. People make fun of you like all the damn time.

But you have Extend Spell, and you know:

Fists of Stone, Critical Strike, Arrow Mind, Master's Touch, Chill Touch
BladeWeave, Wraithstrike, False Life
Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mage Armor

Right. So here's combat close up:

Round 1: Cast Fists of Stone, Cast Blade Weave.
Round 2: Cast Extended Critical Strike, Cast Chill Touch. Make two touch attacks for 2d6 and 2d6 and Daze.
Round 3: Cast Extended Wraithstrike, Attack four times, all touch attacks, for 3d6+Bonuses, 2d6 and Daze, d8+d6+Bonuses, and 1d6 + Daze.

And now just wail on people. It's crazytastic. I mean, it's not all that great, but it's better than anything a 7th level Fighter could dream of doing. And so far we're doing it without actually having any magic items at all.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

True Frank.

And the versatile Artificer can do it even better by making Persistent those Swift spells that last 1 round ... last all day long. And we're talking about doing that at fairly early levels as well.

[Username17]

Yeah, all of those spells are personal - if you instead play a Wizard with Sacred Exorcist and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell you can end up with a Warrior Wizard who is simply superior to anything that a Fighter could ever hope to be.

But the point was not that you could trivially manage to abuse the crap out of those spells - but that if you just use them like you are supposed to you end up massively outshining the Fighter.

-Username17

[User3]

1107827012[/unixtime]]FRank mentioned something a few times when talking about Complete Adventure's spells. That being, you can craft magic items for "swift action" spells with command words -- that are also uttered as swift actions ???

Can someone clarify this? I thought command-word magic items took 1 standard action to activate.

thanks.

Anybody?

[Username17]

It's actually scrolls and potions that always take a standard action to activate. Command Word, Spell Trigger, and Use Activated items "usually" take a standard action to use (unless stated otherwise for the item) - and they've stated previously that wands/tokens of Feather Fall work at all - so logically a Wand of Critical Strike is god damned hillarious.

Essentially, having the spell being replicated have a casting time of "1 Swift Action" or "1 Full Round" is considered to be "stating otherwise" for the purpose of the amount of time it takes to activate the item.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1107834706[/unixtime]]I fvcking hate swift action spells.

They're designed so that they're bigger pieces of crap than real spells, but the thing is that you can cast them alongside real spells.

I rather like the idea of swift actions and swift spells, though I think the fighter really needs some of them.

I'd really like it if all buffs were swift actions, including stuff like rage and some other abilities. That way you could also safely give buffs to fighters as well, and keep all classes on the 1 swift action + 1 standard action + 1 move action paradigm. The problem right now is that fighters have pretty much no use for swift actions and that sucks. So casters are up 1 action.

The "gain a benefit until your next turn" idea is kinda cool, though I'd probably have had it so the 1 round swift action spells can't be extended, since the real cost of the spells isn't the spell slot but the action used to cast them.

But basically you either should get rid of quickening altogether or allow everyone ot have swift action stuff.

[User3]

Well, Fighters have always been up actions. The whole " I take a feat and get the effects of not having to cast Keen on my weapon(Improved Crit.)" or "I take a feat and get an extra attack on a full attack and don't have to cast Haste for that extra attack (Two-Weapon Fighting)."

Sure, it was a shitty paradigm, but if you picked your feats just right you could be as buffed as a spellcaster who'd had like 4 rounds of prep. Since combats lasted like 5 rounds, you were cool, and the spellcasters avoided self-buffing.

Then the caster hit 7th level and you cried since he's got death magic and Polymorph and you are holding your sword like a big useless metal wang.

PS. Frank, the last time I checked, Divine Metamagic only worked on Divine spells(check the first line).

PPS, I proposed a similiar idea
a while ago.