RPS - My Own Games and Games I've Worked On

[Neurosis]

GNS? I've got your GNS right here. To paraphrase some guy called "Jeff Grabowski". Also, ACTUALLY READING the RPS model article, here are some interesting pull quotes.

Any RPG worth playing will fall into one or more of these categories.

Initial emphasis his, additional emphasis mine.

Stupid games do not take themselves seriously. PCs can die horrible deaths and other grim stuff, but that horrible death might involve being eaten by a horde of zombie chickens. Big dice charts, such as wandering monsters or random mutations, are often associated with this style of game. Most comedy games fall into this category, as do all the good versions of Gamma World.

The tildeer on that second quote is that "Stupid" games would be better tagged as "Silly". Which IS a meaningful difference in interpreting this "model".

Context: I am the line developer for at least THREE actively supported game lines. Since some of you know how bad Jason M Hardy (the M is for MORMON) fucked up jus the one, you understand how crazy this be.

This post is not meant as an advertisement but if you want to actually buy one of my games, don't let me stop you.

SPLINTER - You know it's cool because the name is in ALL CAPS. Also you can be a motherfucking were-lich with a motherfucking plasma rifle more or less as a starting character (or within 30 real-time minutes of chargen, which should take less than an hour). The high-concept of SPLINTER--an RPG within an RPG, randomly generated dungeon crawls are the bread and circuses of dystopian future Earth, it's a deconstruction of violent entertainment that is also a pulse-pounding example of same--is Pretentious. The execution of the game-within-a-game is intentionally Retro in feel, but not in mechanics. It's D&D with dice pools, which is pretty cool, but it's also a deconstruction of Gygaxian fuckery that is also a prime example of same.

Conclusion: SPLINTER IS R + P

The Singularity System - I am positive that the Singularity System is neither Retro, nor Pretentious. I pitch it as a setting-neutral sci-fi RPG that is a reaction to everything I liked about Traveller and everything I hated about Traveller. Mechanically, it's what I think SR5 should have been. But with fucking spaceships instead of goddamn elves and magic.

If you just want to tell me you think it's Stupid, please instead a) find the nearest barrel of cocks, b) suck.

If you actually have constructive criticism* why you think it's Stupid, that I want to hear, but I'd ask you to hold off until if/when I have sold enough copies to justify the second edition. Because until then, even if tere is Stupid in there, my hands are tied to fix it.

Psionics - Good news: you have enormous psychic powers. Bad news: you are a teenager (probably, or an adult if you really want to be) with serious emotional problems. Good news: you have enormous psychic powers. Bad news: there are six Conspiracies trying to indoctrinate and/or vivisect you, they secretly control most of the world's LEOs, and none of this is going to help the aforementioned serious emotional problems. Good news: AGAIN, enormous psychic powers. They'll let you push-back against the fucked up system. They'll let you push back hard.

Tildeer: roll dice, cars explode. The thing I am most happy about in this system is that a starting character can easily throw an armored SWAT APC at the SWAT guys that just piled out of it (just like bowling!), and it shouldn't take more than 15 seconds of real time to resolve how hard they get smushed.

If a game where getting XP for incinerating cops with your mind offends you, then Psionics is not for you. If on the other hand an RPG where getting XP for incinerating cops with your mind is something you want to stick your proverbial dick in (thanks Prak), Olidamarra bless you and the download link is back up there.

Conclusion: Psionics is Pretentious because it's a dead fucking serious exploration of where psionic powers, serious emotional problems, and drug abuse meet, both mechanically and thematically. As a "rules-medium", it is also the rules lightest of my games, and thus I do try to sell it to the storygame swine set.

You might think it's also "Stupid" because it strongly encourages you to play as a teenager, but that's just like, your opinion, man.

The Secret Fire by George "Boy Did I Fuck Up The Dragonlance Cartoon" Strayton: Grudge disclosure warning: when I was young, scrappy, and hungry, this overpaid incompetent asshole paid me $100 measly dollars to write basically his entire fucking Monster Manual in 24 goddamn hours. I agreed to do this because he promised me that "with jacket quotes from Monte Cook, my game is guaranteed to be a best seller" and then I could "have as much work on the inevitable sourcebooks as I wanted, paid at AT LEAST $0.07 a word".

Like I said, I was young, dumb, and full of...optimism.

Having written this shit-eating moron's Monster Manual in 24 hours for sub-minimum wage, I emailed him a week or two later asking "What's the deal with that follow-on work which will pay real money**?". He ignored me for 48 hours, then told me he had a really bad migraine, and since then I have never heard from him or successfully gotten through to him again. This was back in 2011.

As for his game? Well unlike any of mine, there's a good reason you (probably) haven't heard of it.

It's Retro as fuck, and at the same time Pretentious for its laughably serious efforts to merge the mechanics of AD&D and 4E (keep in mind, this was back in 2011 when people were like...actively rioting over 4E and it wasn't just a bad memory) and to declare assertively that AD&D was about the Lovecraftian outer gods and gosh-darn-it-always had been.

Conclusion: Burning a hole in the corner of Retro and Pretentious, executed in a very stupid way. There are salvageable ideas, but the best parts of the game are probably the inside jokes I snuck into the "bestiary" chapter.

Shadowrun 5E - Mormon Game Labs LLC. Stephen "Rat" Bullkovic wanted to dig all of the dirty Adam Jury era transhumanism out of the game with a rusty spoon (thematically Retro + Stupid) because nanoware was "OP" and he didn't want players to have nice things. Aaron "Gully Dwarf" Pavao was ever-so-convinced that his Matwix Math would "just work", and could not have been more wrong (mechanically Pretentious + Stupid). Jason Hardy provided the strong editorial direction of a mildly retarded corgi: adorable, but functionally useless (Stupid).

Conclusion: The ? in the center of Jeff G's Pretentious + Retro + Stupid model? That's SR5.

* By normal human standards, not Den standards.

** By RPG industry standards.

[Kaelik]

Problem: All the terms in GNS are bullshit lies, basically all the specificity of tarot readings and astrology with all the internal consistency of a black gay jew KKK nazi.

Proposed Solution: If you just replace the dumb terms with equally dumb terms that are supposed to be a parody, and play it straight, then it all makes sense.

Success Chance: -100% +/-100%.

[Neurosis]

black gay jew KKK nazi.

I know you were going for a hyperbolic analogy, but little did you know you are basically describing an actual person, and I can link you to his youtube feed for your lulz and/or cringes.

[Kaelik]

black gay jew KKK nazi.

I know you were going for a hyperbolic analogy, but little did you know you are basically describing an actual person, and I can link you to his youtube feed for your lulz and/or cringes.

Spoiler alert, I don't give a shit. Lots of people hold contradictory views, and I don't give a shit. It doesn't magically make GNS, or parodies of GNS, into accurate game analysis.

[Josh_Kablack]

I am positive that the Singularity System is neither Retro, nor Pretentious....... it's what I think SR5 should have been.

Sorry man, but "it's what ____ should have been" is an autosuccess on Pretentiousness.

[erik]

Goddamn, Neurosis. You couldn't table this for another 4 years?
Maybe I should've been more clear in my past exultations of RPS over GNS. When I recommended RPS as more useful, it is useful to the extent that it is funny.

That is all.

[Krusk]

This post is not meant as an advertisement but if you want to actually buy one of my games, don't let me stop you.

This isnt an ad, but you link to the drive through rpgs for all of the things you are selling and ask for thoughts on it? What is the purpose of this thread outside of advertising?

Throw your shitty homebrew on a dropbox link or upload it somewhere so someone can read it and talk about it and maybe this would turn into a conversation. As it, its just you saying "hey buy my stuff", which is cool if you are honest about it. Just, you know, do that.

[Longes]

The Singularity System

I see your artist really likes Elite and Metroid.

[Neurosis]

I have a lot of artists that like a lot of things*.

That said, Singularity System (which is what I assume you're talking about) came out in mid-2013 when Elite: Dangerous (which is what I assume you're talking about) wasn't even being crowdfunded yet, IIRC. That means the art was probably drawn in very early 2013 or late 2012.

I myself fucking LOVE Elite: Dangerous. But coincidences do happen.

Serious for a second: taking the piss out of my own games was half the point of this thread. Actual use testing RPS as a model was the second half of the point. The third half (yes, three halfs, STFU) was drawing your attention to the fact that The Secret (Trash) Fire exists for your lulz and/or cringes.

*Unlike the Den, which hates everything seemingly as a matter of policy.

[Kaelik]

For future reference, Elite: Dangerous is a reboot of a series of games, the first one being made in 1984. Now, admittedly, I seriously doubt your artists stole any aspect of a 1984 computer game's graphics as inspiration for their work, but you know, for future reference.

[Neurosis]

I actually did know that. No salt, no irony, just like...I did know that.

[codeGlaze]

*Unlike the Den, which hates everything seemingly as a matter of policy.

We hate out of love.
Also, critique isn't always hate.
Also, also, out of a large enough group you will find someone to hate everything.

[Neurosis]

I generally describe the Den informally as a "collective of RPG lovers united in their frothing, vitriolic hatred of virtually every RPG ever written".

[Judging__Eagle]

We don't hate virtually every RPG ever written; we simply are aware of the flawed aspects that show up in most game's design, and are willing to point out the mechanical impact those design choices will have upon narrative.

Honestly; this place is the best for picking the minds of people who have a good understanding of the fundamental aspects of game design that most people.

A good example would be how "big name" RPG (D&D 3e, Pathfinder) designers have demonstrated that they have no idea about what good design is, and generally double-down on their design ignorance being the fault of the end user. Not themselves.

[deaddmwalking]

I'd like to offer a defense of the den. I don't think they hate all RPGs and it is likely a deliberate mischaracterization. But it at least invites some clarification. So here it goes:

With the right group of people, any game can be fun. With your friends, playing Cowboys and Indians can be a blast, and RPGs share some DNA with those type of games of the imagination. But the reason people move beyond those games is that 'consensus' isn't always easy to obtain. RPGs should provide a way to resolve success and failure and establish shared expectations regarding what results are 'reasonable'.

In other parts of the web, a 'game' will have defendants because it is 'fun' even if it doesn't provide a way to resolve success or failure or establish a common frame of reference. The general defense is 'the GM will handle that'. While that is something a GM could do , that is not a defense for any particular game because this hypothetical GM could do the same for any other game as well. Paying $50 or $200 or $2000 for a publisher to tell you 'do what ever you feel, man' isn't a good value, because you could do the same for free . That doesn't mean those games don't have value - the game may have good sourcebooks or adventures that provide good material - but the core mechanics can and should be evaluated on their own merits.

Now, lets say a game does deliver a robust resolution system and a frame of reference - it does deliver on the 'game' portion - it doesn't mean it is perfect. Taking 3.x as an example, the game really is good at least from level 2-5. Assuming, for a moment, that you have a game that works as expected for part of the play space, it's worth looking at how abd whether it can be improved to expand that play space. This area is where things tend to get contentious. If expanding the play space was easy, the designers probably would have done it. The den spends a lot of time discussing what makes the game work within the playable space. A change or improvement in one area may break another area of the game (ssince RPGs may only be constrained by imagination, a change in one area might have far-reaching effects. Sometimes, the 'cure' is worse than the disease (see 4th edition). Sometimes people try to 'fix' the wrong thing (see static versus variable dice rolls for damage).

The Den then serves as a laboratory for dissecting existing games to determine what works and why it works with the goal of improving existing games/ development for future games.

What can make the Den so frustrating is that we all like to believe that we all have good ideas, and sometimes, we don't. Being told your ideas are dumb is hard, even (maybe expecially) when you realize yourself that they're dumb. The fact is, most ideas sound reasonable until you follow them to their ultimate conclusion. I'd like to illustrate that point with an example idea:

There are 300,000,000 Americans. No matter how much you struggle financially, you can find a penny. If everyone sent 1 penny to a designated American, that person would be an instant millionaire. Why don't we take turns designating one individual to receive our pennies, and in no time, everyone will get $3 million.

If you follow that idea, you'll notice that it will cost each American $3 million to pay each other American. While a penny doesn't sound like much, repeating the process 100 or 1000 or 10,000 times doesn't seem so bad. The den does a good job of following each idea to its final conclusion to show whether it really does succeed. The penny idea doesn't - everybody ultimately breaks even (unless you pay for postage) so it doesn't turn every American into a millionaire.

Regarding 'Sons of Liberty', I haven't seen Hamilton as a musical. The concern I have with your classes is that they are all involved indifferent aspects of the game. Each class should be able to interact in each phase of the game. 'Colonel' would be a class that could participate in battles and fancy parties and might reasonably be expected to be involved in diplomacy. 'Mayor' might be another such class (assuming they are involved in raising militia). As far as game play, you might have a 'letter writing' phase followed by an 'action turn'.