Anatomy of Failed Design: Vampire

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Post by Username17 »

Anatomy of Failed Design
Vampire: the Masquerade

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More Clans

Pretty much every expansion clan gets one new discipline (except the Old Clan Tzimisce, because “fuck those guys”). When a new bloodline is written up, their bullshit new powers get written up along side them. Once a discipline got added to the pile in this way, they were in the pile – so sometimes an expansion bloodline had a discipline that was some earlier bloodline's big new thing. Like how the Nagaraja had Necromancy (which had been the Giovanni's big new thing) but also introduced Nihilistics as their own big new thing.

The expansion bloodlines also don't get nearly as much backstory and narrative focus as the main seven, and they are all officially optional (though later books pretty much assumed you were using all of the things). So by and large, these new disciplines were the biggest driver in you wanting to play any of these assholes. So if you were taken by Obscurica, Halitosis, or Petulance, you could try to convince your storyteller that you should be allowed to play one. And when enough players wanted to be one of these expansion clans, then White Wolf would make a clanbook for them and tell all the players that their characters had been incestuous corpse fuckers the entire time.

Assamites

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The Assamite clan are a bunch of quasi-Muslim dark skinned Middle Easterners who are terrorists and assassins. If that sounds super racist to you... well... it's super racist. But you gotta remember that this shit came out in the early 90s when the United States hadn't spent the last 13 years occupying parts of Iraq and presidential candidates weren't debating whether to ban entry by Muslims into the country. So while the Assamites are an offensive and racist caricature, at the time they weren't part of a culture of hate but instead merely the ignorant musings of people talking about exotic lands with no knowledge and little curiosity.

Assamites are blessed with Celerity and Obfuscate, which we recall were the things given to City Gangrel as well. That was the package of disciplines you wanted if you intended to kill people in combat by hitting them with damage until they died. It let you smuggle weapons places and ambush people with Obfuscate and then attack several times during the surprise round with Celerity and then you win. This was by far the most effective combat strategy, so the fact that there are not one but two “combat themed” expansion bloodlines that get exactly that combo means that some of the authors were totally fucking lying when they said that the trenchcoats and katanas style of playing the game was not the way they did it.

Their new discipline is Quietus. Which is a mysterious grab bag of powers that don't make an sense. You can turn off noise (so you can get away with shooting people with big guns) and then you can make poisons out of your blood? It's undergone a number of revisions because honestly no one gives a single shit about this discipline except for the part where it lets you use firearms in cities without alerting the police. Assamites were created because someone wanted to have a bloodline that was “good at combat” and absolutely every single thing about them is totally subservient to that. Their backstory, their clan organization, their culture and disadvantages are all stupid asspulls to put a fig leaf over having written a clan whose entire reason for existence was to be “best at combat.” And if combat was a thing where it especially mattered if you were good at it, Assamites might even be broken.

There's pretty much no reason for this clan to be a thing. They exist because there was a game mechanical niche. If a new edition had different combat rules, they wouldn't necessarily be best at combat anymore and then they'd have nothing at all. Basically the way to look at these guys is one of the authors angrily writing a workaround to the fact that they figured out that the Brujah aren't actually all that good at combat despite the fact that the fluff says that they are.

Followers of Set

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The Followers of Set, or “Setites” as they are sometimes known, are an Egyptian clan of snake vampires. “Lol Wut?” I hear you say. Well, fuck you. The Setites don't have powers related to the Set Animal, they have powers related to snakes. Because Set is a snake god in fucking Conan the Barbarian. Yes, the Setites are a vampire clan from ancient Egypt where the primary research was done by reading Marvel Comics. That sounds like it should be an exaggeration, but it really isn't. This is Ancient Egypt as explained in a child's book report of some issues of Conan The Barbarian from Marvel Comics. For real.

This actually makes the Setites the least racist of the independent clans, because their background is so poorly researched and ill-informed that it goes out the other side of racism and just becomes pure fantasy. We're talking about Cimmerians and Kothites, not real people. Which makes it a very weird fit for the World of Darkness, which is otherwise set in “Present Day, Present Time.” But we aren't oppressing or insulting any real world groups, so that's a thing. Kind of sad that we have to call that a win, but there you go.

From a discipline standpoint, the Followers of Set get Presence and Obfuscation. That's a cute contradiction and just the fact that they do both is evocative of shady dealer people. They got a persona as corrupters and malfeasants, and it slides in well. All the caveats about how Presence-only feeding works but is not inherently compatible with the Masquerade applies, but this is one of the few discipline sets which actually do what the role says they should do (the others being Toreador, Ventrue, and of course: Tremere). Their signature discipline is Serpentis, which is based primarily on “Shit Thulsa Doom got up to” from a thematic standpoint and “like Protean, only awesome” from an organizational standpoint. Each dot is a variant on the dot you get in Protean, but in general sexed up quite a bit (at least, for the first four dots). So the first dot of Protean gives you funky eyes and the second dot gives you a fight move, the third dot lets you hybernate during the day without catching fire, and the fourth dot gives you an animal form – all broadly the same as Protean except all of them are way better than the Protean versions. Where it gets weird is the last one just lets you rip your heart out and store it in a canopic jar, which is basically useless as opposed to turning into a mist which is pretty fucking cool. Heart-in-a-box is the kind of fire and forget one time ritual that Vampires learn for like one experience point and is a major let down for a discipline capstone. Not that you ultimately cared, because eventually they just said “fuck it” and gave Setites their own thaumaturgy paths and those had capstones that were just fine, thanks.

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I think Kaa is literally the reason that Eyes of the Serpent hypnotize people.

Snake vampires are definitely a thing. Some players are going to want to get their Lair of the White Worm on, and while the original Bram Stoker book (yes, that Bram Stoker) is kind of shit, the movie they made out of it is pretty cool. The Setites have potential, their powers actually help them do their shtick and they are altogether one of the clans that fires on the most cylinders. Definitely a faction you'd want to fix rather than purge.

One thing that I should talk about is the problem of evil. Not the Epicurius mic drop on theism, but the fact that the game is about blood drinking vampires. The Setites were unapologetically evil. But all the other factions are also evil, because they are secret societies of man eating monsters. What exactly does it mean that the Setites are “evil?” Different authors had very different ideas, with some being of the opinion that the Setites were ultimate villain material who were trying to destroy the sun like Montgomery Burns, while others were of the opinion that the Setites were basically just as bad as the other factions but were unapologetic about it and had more fun. This kind of moral ambivalence really hurt the ability to do cooperative storytelling. If one book presented the Setites as child molesting sun devouring lunatics and another book presented them as drug dealing hedonists it meant that very plausibly you could have two players sitting at the table with wholly irreconcilable concepts of what is going on and what acceptable actions there might be. White Wolf badly needed to get its head out of its ass and decide how bad its various flavors of bad guy actually were.

Giovanni

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Well, that went to a very weird place.

The Giovanni are a family of Italian mobsters and necromancers. Pretty much everything about them can be derived from that. That and really amazingly gratuitous racism. Basically think of any possible Italian stereotype you can, and throw it in there. They are food-centric sexual deviants who lead a crime family that is structured like a mafia family from a gangster movie. The necromancy is actually about contacting ghosts, but there's a lot of corpse fucking in here. Like, so much corpse fucking.

The inherently racist nature of the Giovanni would be a real problem if Italians faced any real discrimination in the United States anymore. If this came out in the 1970s or any time before that, the Italian American Defense League would have gotten every book with Giovanni in it labeled a work of hate. But these days the Italians are like Scottish people or the Dutch, and you're just allowed to say incredibly racist things about them and no one gives a shit. Racism is always a fairly dickish thing, but being a dick to people who are in the club is “gentle ribbing” while being being a dick to the disadvantaged is participating in systematic oppression. I can't get worked up about the cartoonish racism that defines the Giovanni's Italianness, even though it's basically the same thing as the racist tirades that define the Ravnos (shudder).

Giovanni had Potence, Dominate, and Necromancy. Potence and Dominate are probably the most generic Vampire disciplines, and were probably handed out because the author honestly didn't give a single ratfuck what other disciplines they got besides their magic death sight power. The Lasombra ended up in the same boat, and have the same default secondary disciplines. Necromancy was originally the protected shtick of the Giovanni, but quite rapidly various means of dealing with the world of the dead cropped up in regional sourcebooks elsewhere. Various Necromancy variants and alternate takes proliferated so severely that eventually White Wolf made Necromancy into a path discipline with associated rituals not unlike Thaumaturgy.

Moving forward, mafia clans of vampires are awesome. And necromancy is awesome. And there is absolutely no reason for this clan to exist. Mafias of vampires are better when they are multi-clan and White Wolf has established that they are completely incapable of making death magic in any way proprietary.

Ravnos

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The Gangrel were originally intended to have Gypsy connections.

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To the point that in the first set of the card game, the Gypsies are a Gangrel ally card.

This all has to do with the fact that in Bram Stoker's book called Dracula, Dracula pulls some strings with Gypsies to help him flee across Europe. Dracula had Gypsy allies, so Vampire: the Masquerade wrote up some Gypsy allies for one of the clans (the Gangrel as it happened). And this was of course problematic, because the Gypsy segment in Dracula is embarrassing and racist in retrospect. So when V:tM uses that shit pretty much straight, it's no longer embarrassing and racist in retrospect, but just sort of racist in an ongoing and upsetting way. Remember, Bram Stoker wrote Dracula as getting aids from Slovaks and Gypsies because Bram Stoker was racist against Slavs and Gypsies. Because it was Victorian England, and people were just racist sometimes.

Now the Gangrel are not actually well designed. As I complained about earlier, they don't do the things they are supposed to do. But they fail not only at the things they should do, but also manage to fall flat on the things that were a bad idea in the first place. So the Gangrel Gypsy connection is just sort of tacked on to one side and doesn't make any more sense than the Dracula Gypsy connection did in the source novel. Now the right way to handle that would probably be to quietly sweep that shit under the rug and never speak of it again. Like that stupid idea of turning back into humans at the end of the chronicle by killing your vampire sire. However, what actually happened was that some dumb asshole at White Wolf decided that the problem was that Gangrel just weren't “Gypsy enough” and decided to make a new bloodline that had the “Gypsiness” turned up to 11.
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Fucking seriously? Damn it White Wolf!
So they are tricksters and thieves who move around the margins of the worlds of monsters and men. Their powers are just the Gangrel powers with Protean swapped out for the power of illusion. Because they are Gypsies. They are an offensive racial stereotype. It's like if someone looked at the Followers of Set and decided that having an African clan didn't quite scratch the black people itch and they wanted a faction of Golliwogs.
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Fucking seriously? Damn it White Wolf!
Nothing can be done for this faction. The niche they were created to serve is a bad niche that you shouldn't serve.

Tzimisce

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The Tzimisce exist because the Gangrel suck. But unlike the Ravnos, who exist because some fucking White Wolf author said “That's not Gypsy enough! Gypsy Gypsy Gypsy!” the Tzimisce are here because Protean sucks at being a transformation power and the Gangrel don't make terribly convincing Draculas. So in walk the Tzimisce with an aristocratic history as scary Slavic Voivodes and a flatly better transformation power. These guys make better Draculas and they also make better transformation specialists. Their clan disadvantage is even that Dracula thing about having to ship dirt around if they move. But as such things inevitably do, the transformation shtick metastasized and became its own thing... and it went to a pretty weird place.

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Wait. What?

So the Tzimisce transformation powers are so much better that they can use them on other people, so they have this weird side-deal going on where they make human centipedes and deadly crab men and shit. Kinda cool, but a serious what-the-fuck. Also totally unplayable in LARP. Also, a kind of subtle point, but these assholes actually don't have mind control powers. In order to command your army of clawed mutant freaks you kinda need to have some kind of ability to do that, and they don't. Tzimisce are definitely one of those factions that really obviously needs more than three disciplines to do their shtick.

Really, transformation needed more than most disciplines to be put on some kind of path schedule where you could be a budget werewolf by taking the Wolf Path and a Conan villain by taking the Serpent Path. And there fucking needed to be an ability to rearrange your own face, because it is fucking ridiculous for there to be transformation magic and have that not be an option. Vicissitude filled a very obvious and very real hole in the rules, but did so in one of the most inelegant ways possible.

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This is how the Tzimisce get portrayed, but I have no idea how they are supposed to do that with Vicissitude, Animalism, and Auspex.

The other issue is that these guys were written for the Sabbat, because that is the book that was being written when this clan proposal was on the slush pile. These guys are all aristocratic and have strong ties to the land and shit and these guys are supposed to be one of the main clans of the rebel faction. The brooding domain lords of the East really doesn't fit with the flaming chainsaw wielding revolutionaries that the Sabbat are usually portrayed as. The Sabbat are deeply incoherent, and the Tzimisce don't help clear that shit up.

Lasombra

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There isn't much to say about the Lasombra so I won't say much. They are basically Ventrue with a disadvantage that could actually work (they have mirror problems, which is a real problem for the masquerade but something that can be worked with). They swap Fortitude for Potence because they are evil, but that doesn't matter because both disciplines blow. And they have the stupidly named Obtenebration, which is shadow magic. The ability to control shadows makes a token effort at convincing you that it's the evil version of Presence (which was doubtlessly exactly how it was first pitched) by giving you the power to “look awesome” through creative lighting control, but it's mostly about making solid tentacles of shadow to hentai rape people.

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Basically, the Lasombra are about what the Ventrue should have been. Pretty much across the board. The Ventrue do their shtick reasonably well if you mind caulk their unworkable clan drawback, and the Lasombra are pretty much the same thing but with a workable drawback and some proprietary sorcery.

Most of the general problems remain of course, but fundamentally we're looking at a clan whose purpose was to rewrite the Ventrue into being better and more playable. A modest goal, since of course the Ventrue are already one of the better and more playable clans, but this clan succeeds at this goal.
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Post by hyzmarca »

FrankTrollman wrote: Image
This is how the Tzimisce get portrayed, but I have no idea how they are supposed to do that with Vicissitude, Animalism, and Auspex.
Considering that all of those women look absolutely terrified, I'd assume that you're just supposed to torture your slaves into compliance.

Tzimisce are one of those clans you play if you want to inject your rape and forced transformation, and human furniture fetishes into the game and make things really creepy really fast. Likewise, the Giovanni are the clan you want to play if you want to inject your rape, incest, and necrphillia fetishes, and make things really creepy really fast.

To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised that there isn't explicitly a pedophile clan. But that's probably going a bit too far even for white wolf.
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Post by mlangsdorf »

Nath wrote: I admit it makes sense for vampires to embrace and thus induce into their clan companions whose interests are similar to theirs. And it's a feature of the game that clan affiliation makes your character a part of the secret history the game is about. But I think I would try to separate those two issues, by simply introducing the idea that one vampire's interests and even personality may change over the decades and centuries.
My problem with being the embraced into a clan theory is that, looking around a table at myself and my fellow players, there was absolutely 0% chance that any structured organization would have taken us on for the rest of eternity. I mean, first chance we get, we're rebelling against our elders and doing our own thing. Even shitty start-ups can hire people better suited to the organizations' goals and capable of showing more loyalty than a typical Vampire clan, and I've worked with plenty of sketchy people at start-ups.

My personal head canon solution for this is that vampires don't really know how to guarantee the Embrace. Oh, they'll tell you they know, but at the end of the day they drain someone's blood and then feed the sap some vampire blood and 75% of the time that ends with a dead sap on the floor. And sometimes someone gets bit once by a vampire and turns the next night and the Sire doesn't even know about the Childe until later.

So the observable fact that the Ventrue at the table was a 20-something rebel without a cause, instead of a 60 year organization man, wasn't a problem. Because the Ventrue hadn't intended to create him but the Prince was screwing over the Ventrue Primogen by forcing him to raise that particular Childe.
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Post by Blasted »

I've always had the impression that Tzimisce were an attempt to introduce Brian Lumley's vampires with their flesh-shaping thing. That's what we were using it for back in the day, anyway.
TBH This whole thread is making me simultaneously nostalgic for the goth rpg scene and unhappy at exactly how bad the game is/was. It's also reminding me that I promised some friends I'd run another AS game.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Blasted wrote:I've always had the impression that Tzimisce were an attempt to introduce Brian Lumley's vampires with their flesh-shaping thing. That's what we were using it for back in the day, anyway.
TBH This whole thread is making me simultaneously nostalgic for the goth rpg scene and unhappy at exactly how bad the game is/was. It's also reminding me that I promised some friends I'd run another AS game.
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand made the Tzimisce into the parasites from Parasyte. Their shapeshifting comes from the fact that they've been eaten and replaced by alien bodysnatchers.
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Post by Longes »

Giovanni had Potence, Dominate, and Necromancy. Potence and Dominate are probably the most generic Vampire disciplines, and were probably handed out because the author honestly didn't give a single ratfuck what other disciplines they got besides their magic death sight power. The Lasombra ended up in the same boat, and have the same default secondary disciplines. Necromancy was originally the protected shtick of the Giovanni, but quite rapidly various means of dealing with the world of the dead cropped up in regional sourcebooks elsewhere. Various Necromancy variants and alternate takes proliferated so severely that eventually White Wolf made Necromancy into a path discipline with associated rituals not unlike Thaumaturgy.

Moving forward, mafia clans of vampires are awesome. And necromancy is awesome. And there is absolutely no reason for this clan to exist. Mafias of vampires are better when they are multi-clan and White Wolf has established that they are completely incapable of making death magic in any way proprietary.
The biggest problem with Giovanni being the only vampire necromancers is that Giovanni are the only vampire necromancers. If a Giovanni wants to come to Texas to enslave the black ghosts - who the fuck cares? If a Giovanni is about to pillage the Underworld's version of library of Alexandria - who's there to stop him? Without necromancy you can't see or interact with ghosts in any way, so all necromancy-centric Giovanni plots are for Giovanni only.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

hyzmarca wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: Image
This is how the Tzimisce get portrayed, but I have no idea how they are supposed to do that with Vicissitude, Animalism, and Auspex.
Considering that all of those women look absolutely terrified, I'd assume that you're just supposed to torture your slaves into compliance.

Tzimisce are one of those clans you play if you want to inject your rape and forced transformation, and human furniture fetishes into the game and make things really creepy really fast. Likewise, the Giovanni are the clan you want to play if you want to inject your rape, incest, and necrphillia fetishes, and make things really creepy really fast.

To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised that there isn't explicitly a pedophile clan. But that's probably going a bit too far even for white wolf.
Well if you wanted to be a pedophile at the table, you either a) played a Venture who only fed on little kids or b) got your Loli Sex Goddess on in Changeling.

The groups I like are Gangrel and Lasombra, solely because they share a name with cool professional wrestlers. Also Tremere because I am a filthy powergamer and like magic vampires. The Settites having fun with their evil is cool too, and you could thread the needle with the sun-eating edgelord shit just being some things the goofier Settites do. But it seems like if you were doing a Vampire Heartbreaker at this point, the clan load out would look kind of like this:

Everybody gets super strength, super toughness and a way to feed (minor mesmerism and the Bloodlines quick nibble clouds the target's mind). Also Thaumaturgy or an equivalent.

The Brujah's Rage Against The Machine gimmick becomes a default style for Anarchs/Sabbat/whatever the young bucks are. The Lost Boys thing can probably go to the Toreador or the Malks.

The Gangrel and the Nossies combine: vaguely animalistic skulkers who have enhanced senses, are good with animals, and make excellent stalkers. They have an increased bloodlust sort of thing. You could instead keep them separate and have the Gangrel and Brujah combine into something that didn't suck.

The Lasombra and the Venture just get folded into each other. They're the Remilia Scarlet/Bela Lugosi night aristocrats. Dominate, Shadow Magic, and something else to replace the punchy discipline. Not showing up in mirrors is fitting for a vain group.

The Tzimisce become full-on Alucard from Hellsing: horrific (yet still sexy and cultured) monster shapeshifters that get either Celerity (for murderizing) or Dominate (for rape play).

Malks get the Brujah flipping out problem, but also get the tricksy archetype the Tremere kind of have. Auspex can be flavored via hearing voices and seeing things.

Toreador grab the Lost Boys stuff, as well as the Ravnos fun loving aspect (with none of the racist Roma shit). They're probably the most "human" clan. Celerity, Dominate, whatever.

Settites are cool and can basically stay with some tweaking.

A reworked Baali that looks like Morrigan from Darkstalkers and fits the Daeva shtick from After Sundown can get the Assamite's power set.
Last edited by Mask_De_H on Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Longes wrote: The biggest problem with Giovanni being the only vampire necromancers is that Giovanni are the only vampire necromancers. If a Giovanni wants to come to Texas to enslave the black ghosts - who the fuck cares? If a Giovanni is about to pillage the Underworld's version of library of Alexandria - who's there to stop him? Without necromancy you can't see or interact with ghosts in any way, so all necromancy-centric Giovanni plots are for Giovanni only.
Well, there is the Medium merit, which lets you talk to ghosts, though you can't use any powers on them.
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Post by Koumei »

hyzmarca wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised that there isn't explicitly a pedophile clan. But that's probably going a bit too far even for white wolf.
Hahaha, oh you naive fool.
Mask_De_H wrote:The groups I like are Gangrel and Lasombra, solely because they share a name with cool professional wrestlers.
Interestingly enough, the wrestler Gangrel was named after the VtM clan. His gimmick was actually "A vampire from VtM". So fake fangs and frilly white shirt and drinking from a goblet of "it's totally blood, honest". The WWF Attitude video game even specified in its copyright screen that "Gangrel is a Trademark of White Wolf".

The Brujah's Rage Against The Machine gimmick becomes a default style for Anarchs/Sabbat/whatever the young bucks are.
The Young Bucks are a tag-team in the Bullet Club faction :P

And I generally thought the Sabbat played out more like a religious organisation to oppose the aristocratic organisation of the Camarilla, with no "anarchy, rawr" overtones. It was straight-up "We are the Catholic church, but without requiring you to believe in a god. But still with all the corruption and evil."
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Post by Mask_De_H »

The Bucks are also in Mount Rushmore 2.0 in PWG :biggrin:

And I do remember they had the copyright White Wolf on Gangrel's entrance tag sometimes. The Brood (and the New Brood, with Fatt and Juff) were ghouls Gangrel was really shitty at keeping in line, too.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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Post by Whipstitch »

The Tremere pretty much have to go. One you strip the bullshit from them they're just a bunch of assholes running a conspiracy. You know, just like everyone else in the fuckin' game.
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Post by Ancient History »

Frank and I were talking about it, and one of the things about the Clans is that the idea of the Clans as old and going back to the creation of the Kindred is bullshit. The population of vampires has to be based on the population of the kine they prey upon; you don't have a lot of old vampires from Assyria and Egypt because there weren't many to begin with. Clans just weren't a practical thing before the early modern age. What you would have instead is very loose, sporadic lineages stretched out across geographic areas that could sustain them - and in Europe, that would probably continue right up through late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages, when elders realized the benefits of small family units so that when they went into torpor, they could leave someone to manage their affairs and have someone that spoke the same language when they woke up, leapfrogging down the centuries.

The Clan as such probably would have come about as a concept after the Black Death ripped Europe a new asshole; the older generation, faced with a sudden drop in prey, would have entered torpor and the youngsters that remained and survived would have started corresponding each other, writing the history of the Kindred that they knew - which is when the foundation myth of Caine with its Biblical tie-ins would have become widespread and accepted, and the myth of Thirteen Great Clans came into being based on misunderstanding of the coherence and organization of the old bloodlines and lineages, and based on then-current ideas of royalty, with all the associated heraldry and symbolism. And it was mostly limited to Europe because the writers didn't travel much and didn't know shit about vampires beyond the Levant.

So the "Clan of Death" probably was founded by an old priest from Cappadocia and his or her descendants are scattered across Italy, but it wasn't exactly organized - like Italy itself - but it was written in the Kindred histories now, and that might have doomed them, because the Giovanni family figured the easiest way to gain respect and legitimize their nascent vampire clan would be to absorb and eat the Cappadocians - and the same think with Tremere and the Salubri. So the idea of some old "Clans" being eaten in the 14-16th century (and having lots of scattered pockets of descendants) makes a lot of sense if the clans themselves didn't exactly organize until a couple centuries before.

And the Setites in particular seem like a clan that would get started during the whole Egyptian revival. Like they're the type of vampire group that started when the British or French empire got interested in that sort of thing, rather than any sort of native cult. The original vampire hipsters.
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Post by Heaven's Thunder Hammer »

It's amazing reading Frank's assessment, is that it rings so many bells for me as a teenager reading the game. It's why nWoD tried so hard to mechanically re-balance the game...

Frank's points were obvious to me and in the back of my mind when I when I first started reading VtM in 1999. But because it was the second RPG I played, and I didn't have a lot of mechanical experience... You just sort of used the system as is, because, well, it was there.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Also, why are the guys who do magic called Clan Shiver and the guys who flip out and punch things called Clan Witch?
Last edited by hyzmarca on Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

I'm particularly contemptuous of people that act like Thaumaturgy in particular wasn't a known problem even at the time. Here's an ugly ass scan from one of their Thaumaturgy supplements.

Image

Just look at those disingenuous chucklefucks. As Frank already pointed out in terms of raw mechanics Thaumaturgy--particularly the rituals--is just a straight up cheaper path to power than the other disciplines offer. When it comes time to explain how Thaumaturgy is actually super hard they mostly just trail off like Chief Wiggum. The most charitable explanation I can devise for this paragraph is the idea that maybe they thought this and other roleplaying prompts would cue your MC to dick around with you enough that you'd feel sad despite having the nicest sheet in the coterie.
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca »

Whipstitch wrote:I'm particularly contemptuous of people that act like Thaumaturgy in particular wasn't a known problem even at the time. Here's an ugly ass scan from one of their Thaumaturgy supplements.

Image

Just look at those disingenuous chucklefucks. As Frank already pointed out in terms of raw mechanics Thaumaturgy--particularly the rituals--is just a straight up cheaper path to power than the other disciplines offer. When it comes time to explain how Thaumaturgy is actually super hard they mostly just trail off like Chief Wiggum. The most charitable explanation I can devise for this paragraph is the idea that maybe they thought this and other roleplaying prompts would cue your MC to dick around with you enough that you'd feel sad despite having the nicest sheet in the coterie.
I think it's more like "here's a huge book of PC options that you should never let your players use. I just wanted to write them because I like the concept way too much, and I love your money,"
Last edited by hyzmarca on Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mord
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Post by Mord »

Clans as social constructs don't need to have anything to do with Clans as mechanical bundles of attributes. K's concept about "Thirteen Great Clans" works just as well for three or four base vampire classes with more social divisions as it does for thirteen classes. I generally agree with Mask_'s thoughts about which buckets of mechanics go together, but I'd go even more extreme with the merges.

Getting everyone access to physical disciplines and blood magic immediately guts some of the mechanics of the clans (Giovanni, Tremere). Basic housekeeping to sweep clans that are really political movements (Brujah), demonyms (Assamite), and conspiracies (Tremere again) out of consideration for mechanical clan status eliminates a few more. What you end up with is something like this:
  • Assamites - They're Fighting Vampires who happen to come from the Middle East.
    Brujah - Miscellaneous low-power Vampires who dislike The Man. Mostly Fighting Vampires, some Passion Vampires.
    Gangrel - Obviously supposed to be Fighting Vampires, with increasing membership in the Ugly Vampire Club. The ones who live in cities have very little to distinguish them from Nosferatu anyway.
    Giovanni - A specific lineage and family of Rich Vampires who know some blood magic.
    Lasombra - Rich Vampires who know some blood magic and think the Ventrue are dicks.
    Malkavian - A weird kind of Passion Vampire. Maybe Crazy Vampire is distinct enough to be its own thing, but the whole concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The only people I've ever known to play Malkavians just do it to be game-disrupting assholes.
    Nosferatu - Ugly Vampires.
    Ravnos - Racist Passion Vampires.
    Setite - Passion Vampires with a snake fetish and a religious tax exemption.
    Toreador - Passion Vampires.
    Tremere - Rich Vampires who are members of a particular blood magic club.
    Tzimisce - Ugly Vampires who also have the Rich Vampire thing going on... This concept is totally schizophrenic; there's no reason why your crusty old nobles and your fleshwarpers would be in the same mechanical or social group. Especially given there is no mechanical support for the "noble" angle.
    Ventrue - Rich vampires.
So what do you have left?
  • Rich Vampires - Ventrue, Lasombra, Giovanni, half of Tzimisce
    Passion Vampires - Toreador, Malkavian, Ravnos, Setite, half of Brujah
    Fighting Vampires - Assamites, half of Brujah, half of Gangrel
    Ugly Vampires - Nosferatu, half of Gangrel, half of Tzimisce
Now, considering that this is an RPG, having a mechanical group that occupies a niche as mechanically important as "is best at fighting" is pretty offensive to every other class. All pretensions of horror and society aside, Fighty Guy is either going to win the game forever or lose the game forever to Mind Control Guy. Either way it's broken; I don't want to try to unpick the Vampire equivalent of a D&D party consisting of Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and Fighter, so nipping that in the bud:
  • Rich Vampires - includes social groups and character concepts that would fit into clans Ventrue, Lasombra, Tremere, Giovanni, and Old Clan Tzimisce
    Passion Vampires - includes social groups and concepts that would have been Toreador, Malkavian, Ravnos, Setite, or Brujah
    Ugly Vampires - Nosferatu, Gangrel, & Vicissitude Tzimisce (plus maybe Assamites if you really squint)
Hey, whaddaya know: it's basically After Sundown... :wink: There's not a lot of need for many flavors of mechanical vampire as long as you have mechanics that allow players to build on the same chassis in different ways.
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Post by Prak »

Mask_De_H wrote:Toreador grab the Lost Boys stuff, as well as the Ravnos fun loving aspect (with none of the racist Roma shit). They're probably the most "human" clan. Celerity, Dominate, whatever.
Give the new Toreador Chimerstry, it fits with the Lost Boys thing, it comes in from the Ravnos stuff, and it's the obvious power for "Vampire Artist"

With White Wolf's obvious hard on for fake martial arts on display in World of Darkness: Combat, and the Kailindo of Werewolf, I'm honestly surprised there was never (to my knowledge) a Tzimisce martial art which focused on the use of vicissitude. You could do a lot worse in combat than using Vic. to joint and bone people.
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Post by ScottS »

Don Michael Antonio Giovanni
Is that an actual human body part he's eating? (All I can guess is that it's a neck cutlet because of the fang marks in the one he's holding.) WTF are the bones :confused:
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Post by Username17 »

The nWoD concept of people being able to found their own blood lines is exactly what you need to explain the clans. The next thing you need is for those blood lines to actually pass on to childer (unlike nWoD) and for blood lines to be able to adopt vampires like the Baali.

A thousand years ago, Europe's population was more than 13 times less than it is now (56 million then and 742 million today). On top of that, the number of vampires that could be supported by any specific number of people was lower. People were more malnourished and simply had less blood and recovered from blood loss more slowly. A greater percent of the population was in tiny rural and isolated communities too small to support a vampire. And transportation technology and infrastructure was fucking bullshit, making the physical area that a vampire could hunt in smaller.

With each vampire limited to smaller physical areas that had lower population densities that needed more kine per vampire, the number of places that could support more than just Dracula and his brides was very small indeed. There was no place for clan hierarchies or sect divisions because the entire population of vampires from St. Petersburg to Dublin was something less than 500. Probably a lot less. Vampires from different lineages would only ever meet in a couple places like Paris and Rome. But remember that a thousand years ago the population of Paris was only 20,000 people so you had like two lineages of vampires at the meetings.

As populations rose and trade expanded, the amount of vampires could raise significantly. But in the 1300s that all comes cashing down as famine and plague sweep Europe. The population in 150 is more than 10 percent lower than it was in 1300. And that population loss isn't evenly distributed, with some areas in Tuscany losing more than two thirds of their people in a single generation. What that means is that a whole lot of vampires would have the support pulled completely out from under them and they'd be forced to move or starve or kill other vampires (or start overfeeding on their kine resources, which would drive the "plague" deaths up even higher and rapidly force the same choice). While the population of vampires probably nearly doubled from maybe 300 to about 600 between 1000 CE and 1300 CE, by 1350 it would have halved down to 300 again in an orgy of blood and death. And while European populations rebounded quickly, it would be a long time before the survivors of that little clusterfuck felt safe to start embracing new vampires.

But while the European population of vampires was probably in the 500 range (or less) for most of the last thousand years, in modern nights it's about seven and a half thousand. The vampires have added nearly seven thousand Europeans to their number just in the last 300 years or so. So obviously basically all the vampire sects and culture and rules for interaction and stuff were codified in that period. Just as humans saw the rise of the nation state, vampires saw the creation of the clans at the same time. This explains why the clans are named in Spanish and Italian rather than Assyrian and Hittite.

But what that really means is that someone had to awaken themselves a bloodline and then adopt a bunch of vampires into it in about 1700. Other vampires would follow suit, and a hundred years later most of the new vampires would be embraced into a declared bloodline.

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Post by Prak »

@ScottS: I believe they're called "a complete lack of knowledge of anatomy."

Also, on the subject of Giovanni, I'm Italian on my mother's side. My great grandparents came over on the boats. It has never fucking occurred to me to be offended by the Giovanni. Or Giovanni from Pokemon, for that matter.
Last edited by Prak on Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Maxus »

What's the ratio there? Seems to be about 1 vampire per hundred thousand people.
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Post by Milkmaid79 »

That's the default ratio. Obviously it varies depending on the quantity and quality of drugs available to the writers at the time.

I recall the Dark Ages book "explaining" that the vampire population in 1197 has diluted down to the 12th generation (in a game world where the vampire population in 1992 was 13th generation) with a throwaway line about how the circumstances of the Dark Ages had allowed the vampires to sire so often.
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Post by Longes »

Whipstitch wrote:I'm particularly contemptuous of people that act like Thaumaturgy in particular wasn't a known problem even at the time. Here's an ugly ass scan from one of their Thaumaturgy supplements.

Image

Just look at those disingenuous chucklefucks. As Frank already pointed out in terms of raw mechanics Thaumaturgy--particularly the rituals--is just a straight up cheaper path to power than the other disciplines offer. When it comes time to explain how Thaumaturgy is actually super hard they mostly just trail off like Chief Wiggum. The most charitable explanation I can devise for this paragraph is the idea that maybe they thought this and other roleplaying prompts would cue your MC to dick around with you enough that you'd feel sad despite having the nicest sheet in the coterie.
They actually have a point. Thaumaturgy, unlike every other discipline, requires you to have a teacher to learn any path other than your primary path. If the MC says "no one in Chicago knows anything other than Path of Blood and Path of Cockery", then your advancement scheme in Thaumaturgy came to a grinding halt and you have to leave the campaign setting or start buying up Dominate.
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Post by Prak »

Path of Cockery should be an actual fan path. It can be like a cock-focused version of Animalism, but better. Like Serpentism, but with cocks.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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