Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

[TiaC]

If each of our five passes was called a one-in-a-million throw, which was a very conservative estimate of the odds, then all five together made it a one-in-an-octillion chance.

Yeah, I wouldn't keep reading after that screwup either. It's a one-in-a-nonillion chance.

[Josh_Kablack]

Even worse, the authorial voice there is an AI describing its success in computing an especially difficult realtime N-body problem -- so that line is said by a character who is near godlike at math.

[phlapjackage]

If each of our five passes was called a one-in-a-million throw, which was a very conservative estimate of the odds, then all five together made it a one-in-an-octillion chance.

Yeah, I wouldn't keep reading after that screwup either. It's a one-in-a-nonillion chance.

I'm currently reading the book and enjoying it somewhat, although I haven't gotten to this point yet. Not as good as his past books, but better than most other new sci-fi.

It seems like this must've been the camel-straw-back moment for you, as it's hard to see how such a thing would cause you to rage-quit it. Something like "Ready Player One", I can see how errors in the minutia and trivia can do that, as that's the whole draw of the book. But Aurora isn't all about correct math calculations...

Even worse, the authorial voice there is an AI describing its success in computing an especially difficult realtime N-body problem -- so that line is said by a character who is near godlike at math.

Yet written by an author who is not an AI and not godlike at math, so it seems forgivable...

For my part, before starting on Aurora I had tried reading Stephenson's new book, Seveneves. I was totally turned off by the first paragraph of the book. Compared to The Deliverator, Seveneves first paragraph was so dry and boring...felt like Stephenson was just phoning it in (especially after starting to feel that way after reading Reamde). I tried to read for a few more chapters but it never overcame my initial impression and I stopped.

The moon blew up without warning and for no apparent reason. It was waxing, only one day short of full. The time was 05:03:12 UTC. Later it would be designated A+0.0.0, or simply Zero.

[Josh_Kablack]

Aurora is an otherwise well written book. It does some pretty nifty things with narrative tone and philosophy, and conversely it has some problems in that a "hard science" narrative cannot possibly maintain accuracy when it involves more scientific disciplines than the author can possibly be conversant in.

On top of that, the overall defeatist narrative about how "interstellar travel is technically possible, but futile" stands in sharp contrast to most sci-fi's can-do optimism in a way that is bound to be divisive among readers. It's a different moral than most such tales have, but it stands in such stark contrast to the rest of the genre that it will rankle many.


However, this isn't the thread for nuanced reviews. This is the thread for making fun of people who got paid real money to do things like be off by a factor of a thousand because they didn't know what the words for large numbers are.

And since you've dragged me in to mocking it further, I should point out that the error occurred in the context of the author using a really lazy idiom:

Scientists have calculated that the chances of something so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one.
But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

And if you don't think that sort of heroes are heroes because they get to ignore the odds, odds are just flavor text, thing causes real harm to gaming then you weren't reading this board back in 2009.


I could go on and on about how simple math errors are fundamentally dangerous to fields a lot more critical than TTRPGs, and how letting such errors go unchallenged causes real-world deaths in a number of macroeconomic and policy areas, but that sort of argument seems a bit abstract and hard to pin down, so let me take a simpler tack. How would you feel if your next paycheck were one thousand times smaller than it should be? Well, that's about how I feel about this sort of error making it into a book from an accomplished author who had a paid editor, double especially when the book is trying to be as plausible as possible.

For comparison, Charles' Stross's Neptune's Brood is a far-less plausible examination of the difficulties that relativistic limits put on interstellar travel, but avoids running into the same sort of suspension of disbelief issues, as it is clear satire of the shadow banking that lead to the financial meltdown of 2008, and therefore mainly concerned with the single science of accounting. In that book, the artificially intelligent narrator often displays her ignorance of things not related to accounting, economics and bookkeeping. Thus Stross doesn't can obscure his own ignorance (or knowledge) of genetics, biochemistry, medicine, ecology, computer science and orbital mechanics within the narrator's frame of reference and not open himself up to mockery.

[phlapjackage]

However, this isn't the thread for nuanced reviews. This is the thread for making fun of people who got paid real money to do things like be off by a factor of a thousand because they didn't know what the words for large numbers are.

This is my fault, reading this thread for awhile and based on the title, I thought it was more for when something occurred that made you stop watching / reading / following. But after re-reading the original post, I stand corrected. So as far as mockery goes, mock on.

And if you don't think that sort of heroes are heroes because they get to ignore the odds, odds are just flavor text, thing causes real harm to gaming then you weren't reading this board back in 2009.

I could go on and on about how simple math errors are fundamentally dangerous to fields a lot more critical than TTRPGs, and how letting such errors go unchallenged causes real-world deaths in a number of macroeconomic and policy areas, but that sort of argument seems a bit abstract and hard to pin down, so let me take a simpler tack. How would you feel if your next paycheck were one thousand times smaller than it should be?

Well, now here I think you're being a bit...hyperbolic? Sledding down a slippery slope? Errors in real-world calculations, be they on paychecks or TTRPGS or policy areas, surely are a far-cry from errors in calculations in a work of fiction. But I didn't mean to imply you couldn't challenge Aurora's math, see my mea culpa above.

Well, that's about how I feel about this sort of error making it into a book from an accomplished author who had a paid editor, double especially when the book is trying to be as plausible as possible.

Fair enough. Purely curious, how did you realize that the math was off? Do you make it a point to check these kinds of things, or is your math good enough that it instinctively leaped out at you as wrong?

[hyzmarca]

But his Secretary of Defense wanted to say something. She had represented Harlem in Congress, and after her defeat by a Black Muslim candidate the administration had given her the defense job to maintain her visibility; she was one of its biggest supporters in the black community. The 42nd Division was her baby – in fact, she had carried several of its babies, until the abortionist had restored her shapely figure – and she wanted it to have its chance to shine.

“Mr. President,” said the Honorable Kateesha Mowukuu, “I am the only black woman at this table. We have heard what these white men have to say. I would remind you that in this war, white men are our enemy. Now you will hear what a black woman has to say, and I expect all of you to listen with respect.”

“Black people have been the only warriors in history. White men can’t fight. It’s because their noses are too small. Courage comes from the nose, not the heart, as the African spiritual healers you call witch doctors have long understood. That’s why black people eat their snot. What do you white folk do with your snot? You wrap it up in a little white surrender flag and put it in your pocket. So you don’t have no courage.”

Okay, this novel is a pure political piece written by a hyper-conservative neo-luddite. I was expecting it to be a political piece, and a shitty one, at that. Still, this woman is the goddamn United States Secretary of Defense. It's like, for some reason Conservative speculative fiction authors can't make their liberal opponents anything but hyper-incompetent. And I'm honestly freaking tired of it.

[Maxus]

It's like, for some reason Conservative speculative fiction authors can't make their liberal opponents anything but hyper-incompetent. And I'm honestly freaking tired of it.

Conservatives as a whole have this hole in their brain where they can't understand why someone would be liberal. Like, they can't get their head around the idea that someone legitimately wants, oh, marriage equality or slightly higher taxes on the wealthiest because they think it's the right/most manageable thing to do, for actual reasons that aren't SATANIC ONE WORLD UN AGENDA or RESENT THE RICH FOR BEING SUCCESSFUL

[Prak]

To be fair, I can't comprehend why, other than outright bigotry, someone would be conservative.

[Maxus]

To be fair, I can't comprehend why, other than outright bigotry, someone would be conservative.

I can understand--the current system, or an old one, worked for them, or they thought it did, and they're afraid that too many changes will ruin whatever's good. I don't agree with them and think many of their fears are groundless, but I can understand that that's where many come from.

It's not so much bigotry as it is fear of change. Hell, I know conservatives who try to live up to that whole "Jesus wants you to be kind to people and do good" and are generally stand-up people who I just happen to disagree with about economics and the role of government, so it's not like every one of them keeps a set of KKK sheets in the closet.

And then you get the racists and the wannabe-theocrats and the Austrian school economists, who make up the most vocal part of the Republican party, and that's just too bad.

[Prak]

That's fair. On the other hand, I am the sole liberal in my family. My grandmother is not actively racist, far from having KKK sheets in her closet, but last Friday literally said she could not vote for One Nation, because Obama was enough. She didn't explicitly say she couldn't vote for a black man, but that was the clear intent. My dad is a deacon, and he and my mother certainly try to do the whole Jesus line, within their means, but of course its colored by their belief that abortion is horribly evil and gays are unnatural, and when I once asked how conservative christians were a thing, their explanation was a bullshit "the government shouldn't make us" line.

So, sure, not every conservative is wearing their best white robes on Sundays, but I have yet to meet one who was not at least casually bigotted.

Edit: Scratch that- I've met a single socially liberal fiscal conservative christian, if that counts, but so far as I know, he tends to vote democrat since the social issues are more important than the fiscal.

[Kaelik]

But his Secretary of Defense wanted to say something. She had represented Harlem in Congress, and after her defeat by a Black Muslim candidate the administration had given her the defense job to maintain her visibility; she was one of its biggest supporters in the black community. The 42nd Division was her baby – in fact, she had carried several of its babies, until the abortionist had restored her shapely figure – and she wanted it to have its chance to shine.

“Mr. President,” said the Honorable Kateesha Mowukuu, “I am the only black woman at this table. We have heard what these white men have to say. I would remind you that in this war, white men are our enemy. Now you will hear what a black woman has to say, and I expect all of you to listen with respect.”

“Black people have been the only warriors in history. White men can’t fight. It’s because their noses are too small. Courage comes from the nose, not the heart, as the African spiritual healers you call witch doctors have long understood. That’s why black people eat their snot. What do you white folk do with your snot? You wrap it up in a little white surrender flag and put it in your pocket. So you don’t have no courage.”

Okay, this novel is a pure political piece written by a hyper-conservative neo-luddite. I was expecting it to be a political piece, and a shitty one, at that. Still, this woman is the goddamn United States Secretary of Defense. It's like, for some reason Conservative speculative fiction authors can't make their liberal opponents anything but hyper-incompetent. And I'm honestly freaking tired of it.

That isn't even incompetent. That is just slapping all the racist (SJW) stereotypes he could think of onto a character at once.

I mean for fucks sake:

1) You can't listen to what white people say.
2) White people can't do anything right, in fact they have never even fought in a war.
3) I have a big nose.
4) And I'm proud of it.
5) Black people eat boogers!

Is that even a black stereotype? Really? Like, if I looked up dumb KKK websites would I even find them all accusing black people of being nosepickers? WTF.

I'm pretty sure no black person in the world has ever even accidentally met all of those characteristics at the same time. I don't even think the KKK accuses black people in general of doing/saying all those things.

[hyzmarca]

But his Secretary of Defense wanted to say something. She had represented Harlem in Congress, and after her defeat by a Black Muslim candidate the administration had given her the defense job to maintain her visibility; she was one of its biggest supporters in the black community. The 42nd Division was her baby – in fact, she had carried several of its babies, until the abortionist had restored her shapely figure – and she wanted it to have its chance to shine.

“Mr. President,” said the Honorable Kateesha Mowukuu, “I am the only black woman at this table. We have heard what these white men have to say. I would remind you that in this war, white men are our enemy. Now you will hear what a black woman has to say, and I expect all of you to listen with respect.”

“Black people have been the only warriors in history. White men can’t fight. It’s because their noses are too small. Courage comes from the nose, not the heart, as the African spiritual healers you call witch doctors have long understood. That’s why black people eat their snot. What do you white folk do with your snot? You wrap it up in a little white surrender flag and put it in your pocket. So you don’t have no courage.”

Okay, this novel is a pure political piece written by a hyper-conservative neo-luddite. I was expecting it to be a political piece, and a shitty one, at that. Still, this woman is the goddamn United States Secretary of Defense. It's like, for some reason Conservative speculative fiction authors can't make their liberal opponents anything but hyper-incompetent. And I'm honestly freaking tired of it.

That isn't even incompetent. That is just slapping all the racist (SJW) stereotypes he could think of onto a character at once.

I mean for fucks sake:

1) You can't listen to what white people say.
2) White people can't do anything right, in fact they have never even fought in a war.
3) I have a big nose.
4) And I'm proud of it.
5) Black people eat boogers!

Is that even a black stereotype? Really? Like, if I looked up dumb KKK websites would I even find them all accusing black people of being nosepickers? WTF.

I'm pretty sure no black person in the world has ever even accidentally met all of those characteristics at the same time. I don't even think the KKK accuses black people in general of doing/saying all those things.

In fairness, there are black people with prominent positions in the protagonist faction, who are all reasonable and competent.

On the other hand, the black protagonists voted to bring back lynching as a solution to black crime.

But on a whole, the author seems more anti-feminist than racist. Considering that the first paragraph in the book is about them burning a female Episcopalian bishop at the stake for heresy, because women can't be priests.

[Kaelik]

In fairness, there are black people with prominent positions in the protagonist faction, who are all reasonable and competent.

On the other hand, the black protagonists voted to bring back lynching as a solution to black crime.

But on a whole, the author seems more anti-feminist than racist. Considering that the first paragraph in the book is about them burning a female Episcopalian bishop at the stake for heresy, because women can't be priests.

I don't mean they are racist because this one black person is portrayed badly. I mean they are racist because wholly fucking fuck, those are just like straight up black stereotypes stabled onto a character (except possibly not the snot eating part, except that that is specifically called a black person trait by the author, so maybe they think it is).

It doesn't matter if their are competent black people or not, that shit is super fucking racist.

[Josh_Kablack]

To be fair, I can't comprehend why, other than outright bigotry, someone would be conservative.

Because some of the current American Conservative issues resonate strongly with them.

Here are some reasons to be Conservative which aren't especially bigoted:

• Lower Taxes.
• Less Government Intrusion into my own life.
• Desire to own guns and hunt.
• Desire for a strong military.

Whether, those are worthwhile ideals and whether actual American Conservatism advances those ideals as more than talking points are both debatable. Yet they are strong talking points on the side of the American Right and are at most tangentially related to the Us vs. Them tribalism so often exploited by US right-wing politicians.

[Prak]

Hm, fair enough, I suppose.

Since this has become the thread for taking about OotS...

There are two solutions for Roy's new problem that are fully within the rules- Never Send A Fighter To Do A Caster's Job (a cleric summons or gates in something that can ignore Antilife Shell and ends the fight, or Vaarsuvius pops in to see what's going on and does it), or one of the clerics, say, the cleric of Loki, casts Polymorph Any Object on Roy to allow him to ignore it (bonus points for Polymorphing him into a vampire).

Of course, I'm sure neither of those resolutions will be used. His sword has some undefined power against Undead, which could be Undead Bane, Disrupting, or DM Pity. Probably the last. He's already dispelled one effect, I'm sure this will be how he deals with the Antilife Shell as well.

Do you think Burlew realizes that he's actually proving how much fighters suck?

[Occluded Sun]

If Roy has a throwing weapon with the Returning property he can elegantly demonstrate why fighters don't suck.

If he throws the sword, he might be able to impale the Durkon's corpse, which would be quite dramatic as well.

[Kaelik]

If Roy has a throwing weapon with the Returning property he can elegantly demonstrate why fighters don't suck.

If he throws the sword, he might be able to impale the Durkon's corpse, which would be quite dramatic as well.

If he actually has a sword with the returning penalty he could make a single attack at -4 against a fullplate wearing and possible buffed Cleric for 2d6+Str+enhancement damage, and the Cleric could just ignore that, and continue casting spells.

[RobbyPants]

His sword has some undefined power against Undead, which could be Undead Bane, Disrupting, or DM Pity. Probably the last. ...

Do you think Burlew realizes that he's actually proving how much fighters suck?

He's already given him some bullshit ability that no one else knows.

[virgil]

His sword has some undefined power against Undead, which could be Undead Bane, Disrupting, or DM Pity. Probably the last. ...

Do you think Burlew realizes that he's actually proving how much fighters suck?

He's already given him some bullshit ability that no one else knows.

Eh, it looks like some variant on the Mageslayer Feat that lets him ignore defensive casting, hardly a bullcrap level ability. Unless there's some other ability I'm unaware of.

[Prak]

Robby- if you mean the sword thing, I looked back and it's a property of starmetal in that world. The guy who reforged Roy's sword with the golf ball sized chunk of meteorite said that it would make the sword +5 and particularly effective against undead, but without specifying what that meant. Could be Bane, could be Disrupting, could be some special DM Pity ability.

[Kaelik]

Robby- if you mean the sword thing, I looked back and it's a property of starmetal in that world. The guy who reforged Roy's sword with the golf ball sized chunk of meteorite said that it would make the sword +5 and particularly effective against undead, but without specifying what that meant. Could be Bane, could be Disrupting, could be some special DM Pity ability.

He's probably referring to the fact that somehow the starmetal has infected Roy and given him super powers.

[Maxus]

Robby- if you mean the sword thing, I looked back and it's a property of starmetal in that world. The guy who reforged Roy's sword with the golf ball sized chunk of meteorite said that it would make the sword +5 and particularly effective against undead, but without specifying what that meant. Could be Bane, could be Disrupting, could be some special DM Pity ability.

He's probably referring to the fact that somehow the starmetal has infected Roy and given him super powers.

The guy -did- describe it as a side effect and try to tell Roy how to stop the glowy green fire from happening.

Probably because Roy now has radiation poisoning or something.

[AndreiChekov]

To be fair, I can't comprehend why, other than outright bigotry, someone would be conservative.

Because some of the current American Conservative issues resonate strongly with them.

Here are some reasons to be Conservative which aren't especially bigoted:

• Lower Taxes.
• Less Government Intrusion into my own life.
• Desire to own guns and hunt.
• Desire for a strong military.

Whether, those are worthwhile ideals and whether actual American Conservatism advances those ideals as more than talking points are both debatable. Yet they are strong talking points on the side of the American Right and are at most tangentially related to the Us vs. Them tribalism so often exploited by US right-wing politicians.

I usually vote republican for these very reasons.
Also, I hate socialism, and would like to see freehealthcare burned to the ground.

[Kaelik]

To be fair, I can't comprehend why, other than outright bigotry, someone would be conservative.

Because some of the current American Conservative issues resonate strongly with them.

Here are some reasons to be Conservative which aren't especially bigoted:

• Lower Taxes.
• Less Government Intrusion into my own life.
• Desire to own guns and hunt.
• Desire for a strong military.

Whether, those are worthwhile ideals and whether actual American Conservatism advances those ideals as more than talking points are both debatable. Yet they are strong talking points on the side of the American Right and are at most tangentially related to the Us vs. Them tribalism so often exploited by US right-wing politicians.

I usually vote republican for these very reasons.
Also, I hate socialism, and would like to see freehealthcare burned to the ground.

Uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA06Z5e1ZFc

[AndreiChekov]

Because some of the current American Conservative issues resonate strongly with them.

Here are some reasons to be Conservative which aren't especially bigoted:

• Lower Taxes.
• Less Government Intrusion into my own life.
• Desire to own guns and hunt.
• Desire for a strong military.

Whether, those are worthwhile ideals and whether actual American Conservatism advances those ideals as more than talking points are both debatable. Yet they are strong talking points on the side of the American Right and are at most tangentially related to the Us vs. Them tribalism so often exploited by US right-wing politicians.

I usually vote republican for these very reasons.
Also, I hate socialism, and would like to see freehealthcare burned to the ground.

Uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA06Z5e1ZFc

Well, social health care, I should say. Under the current implementation of it, I am required to have it, and I can't afford to live if I pay it. Also, I'm one of those paranoidish people that avoids my information existing anywhere (which I know is dumb, but it makes me feel good).