Power level of Russian folk tales and myths' opposition

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:43 am

This is in particular addressed to our resident Russians (you know who you are), but if you want to offer advice, I would greatly welcome it! I want to know roughly (in DnD 3.5 CR/level terms) how powerful the opposition in Russian myths and legends is. We're talking both named individuals (like Koschei the Deathless and Baba Yaga) as well as 'general threats' (like dragons).

I realize that may well be inconsistences in this (when aren't there?), so thus, I'm soliciting your guys' opinions in a bid to settle somewhere reasonable.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:23 am

Ivan Tsarevich has a pretty diverse set of tales where he overcomes various challenges:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Tsarevich

Ivan stories are more about allying with magical beings than being inherently magical oneself. Ivan gets hacked to death by mundane swordsmen with mundame swords but unknown to the mundanes he has a magic wolf buddy that will bother with recruiting crows to find the waters of life/death to piece his body together and resurrect him just in time to interrupt Ganondorf's wedding to Zelda.

There's a magic sword Ivan wields that other unrelated heroes wield too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Kladenets

Stuff like Koschei the deathless is more about solving an elaborate puzzle than a face-stab battle though and may be harder to implement with D&D dungeon crawling that expects you to solve problems by beating them to death.

St. George is part of Russian Christian folklore, so there are dragons you can kill by skewering and hacking. There's similar stories with Russia-specific heroes where heroes go and beat dragons to death. They may be empowered by the heavens though.

The shape shifter/dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tugarin_Zmeyevich loses a fight because his wings are like paper and get messed up in the rain. Tugarin's powers are shooting fire and smoke and telekinetically throwing logs.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:05 am

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:15 am

It's all very low level.

Baba Yaga is probably the 'strongest', because she's a witch. She has a magic sentient hut, her fence has talking human skulls with glowing eyes, she can fly in the mortar and hide her traces with a broom. Sometimes she has an artifact to give to a polite hero, and some times she has three magical knights serving her (who are Day, Night and Red Morning Sky). She can also smell russian spirit.

Tugarin Zmey is a metaphor for the mongolian raiders, and in most versions of the tale is not actually a dragon. Zmey is just his surname. He has the magic power of shooting at you with the bow and pistol, and hacking you with a sword.

Solovey-Razboinik (Nightingale-Robber) is mordvin robber who whistles people to death. That's kinda it. Ilya Muromets has too much DR against sonic attacks, so he just kills Solovey by getting close and stabbing him. Though he loses a horse.

Zmey Gorinych flies, breathes fire, and has three heads. He symbolizes draught and lives in the lakes in the mountains. Gorinych steals women and princessess, and gets hacked to pieces by mighty bogatyrs and princelings.

That's one happy-looking tzar

That's the Sea Tzar. He lives in the sea, and when he's having a feast the sea becomes unsettled. He gives the bard hero some stuff (usually riches) or his daughter falls in love with hero, and the Sea Tzar tries to stop them from leaving. In the first case because the Tzar loves music, and wants to employ the hero permanently, in the second case because Tzar loves his daughter and doesn't want to see her go.

Kashchey the Immortal is a mighty warrior and the archetypal lich. He's immortal, rich, has magic powers, and will fuck you up in melee combat. Sadly, his cleverly hidden phylactery is found by the hero, and destroyed.

And let's talk about the heroes, shall we?

You can't really tell, but the guy on the left is a Courtier
I'll be referencing the Vsnetsov's painting, not the cartoon

The Three Bogatyrs. They are the primary heroes of old slavic tales (called bylina - true story), though usually they act alone and only team up for crossover events.
On the white horse is Dobrynya Nikitich, who is a strong and skilled fighter, but is also "savvy" - he's polite, diplomatic, knows proper ettiquete, good dancer and musician.
With the bow is Alesha Popovich, who is a smartass. He's far more cunning than the other bogatyrs, but is also kind of a dick. He tricks Dobrynya's wife into thinking Dobrynya died so he can marry her himself.
And in the middle is Ilya Muromets. He's strong like Superman and has a magic sword.
Bogatyrs are loosely based on real people.

Vasilisa Mikulishna is also a bogatyr. She's wise, cunning and super strong. She tricks the Kiev's knyaz by crossdressing as a tatar embassador so she can save her husband.

Ivan Tzarevich is the Tzar's youngest son, and is really good at finding magicall allies to help him. Has a bad problem with being killed though. But he gets better. He's also good at finding beautiful benevolent sorceresses to be his wife.

The guy on the left is really happy for Ivan's wife

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:55 am

Was it Russia where one hero had a hat of dragon-slaying? Or am I thinking of Czechoslovakia or something?

Longes wrote:

"Here, have this plate of delicious cookies! No, don't eat the plate you fool!"

Seriously, the shield held like that, with the circular things that appear to be actual things on the shield and not just painted circles...

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:15 am

Longes wrote:

Solovey-Razboinik (Nightingale-Robber) is mordvin robber who whistles people to death. That's kinda it. Ilya Muromets has too much DR against sonic attacks, so he just kills Solovey by getting close and stabbing him. Though he loses a horse.

And half the forest.
And most of a city's population.
And the building and fortifications where those people were living.

Saying Solovey-Razboink just "whistles people to death" is like saying "King Artur just swinged a sword". It was a stupidly powerful sonic attack.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:23 pm

First of all, CRs of mythological characters in sourcebooks are bizarrely overestimated compared to the source material. Fairytale opposition is all Steves. Baba Yaga is monstrous humanoid witch, but because D&D has witches and different tiers of hags, the uniquely named Yaga has to be the biggest baddest of them all. In the actual fairytales, she's every single one of those witches. Koschei isn't the Epic King of Liches, he's the lich. Some fairytale effects are high-level, but the characters don't have the ability to consistently produce them. Often, a "sorcerer" is just a person living outside civilization and possessing one or several magic items. Mass Flesh to Stone which affects the entire kingdom is a Joke Book spell, but Koschei doesn't display any other abilities in line with that. Baba Yaga isn't high-level just because her staple is Baleful Polymorph; rather, in the setting, being turned into an animal is a low-level effect / loss condition. When Koschei's 12 sisters curse Ivan to get killed by his pets and his friend Bulat to turn to stone if he tries to prevent it, why don't they just kill the two with all the other D&D spells they should have at their disposal? That's because they don't have any.
TL;DR nothing in fairytales is higher than CR5 and nothing in legends is higher than CR8.

There are two distinct settings: the fairytale Thrice-Ninth Kingdom and the legendary Kievan Rus. The former comprises standalone stories with a recurring cast, the conflicts are less D&D and more adventure-game puzzles. The latter has distinct character classes and abilities, a continuity, and combat as something which a single character regularly participates in.

Fairytales

This setting doesn't actually support the concept of character classes and levels. Everything is basically a quest item. Combat with mundane weapons is rare; weapons are used by the hero to kill or threaten various animals* (with the surviving animal later coming to the hero's aid), and by the Evil Brothers / Evil Sexy Princesses to murder the hero. When you're fighting the main villain, you're doing so with an artifact sword and victory is guaranteed. If an army is chasing you, you either flee or hide.

* Actual quote: "Ivan Tsarevich walked through the wood and saw a mouse. He decided to squash it, but the mouse cried, 'Please don't squash me, Ivan Tsarevich, I'll be of use to you yet!'" This isn't limited to pests, falcons and ravens can be targets. Heroes also rescue animals from predators, from traps, and from hunger, but the hero's own wanton zoocidal cruelty is the #1 danger to fairytale animals.

Baba Yaga (literally "evil, shrewish woman") is usually a typical fairytale witch. Kids trick her, and adults can threaten her with a sword. Sometimes she's one of the first encounters on your adventure where you get solutions for future puzzles in the form of magic items or advice, for free or in exchange for a mundane-sounding but actually level-appropriate service (cleaning her hut, guarding her horses, finding a small lost object -- hope you scared enough animals into helping you). If she starts out deceptively nice, you might need to kill her or trick and escape from her, or you might part on good terms ("Hur hur hur, I'll eat you!" "Please don't eat me." "Okay, I won't. Here's your level-appropriate magic equpment.") In some stories, "baba yaga" is not a proper name but a term meaning "witch", there are two or three baba sisters and it's implied more unrelated babas exist.

Koschei (literally "bony") the Deathless typically has a sort of a phylactery: "His death is at the tip of a needle, and the needle is in an egg, and the egg is in a duck, and the duck is in a hare, and the hare is in a chest, and the chest is buried under a centennial oak at the shore of the Sea-Ocean (edge of the world)". Destroy the item and he dies. Despite being described as a sorcerer in metadiscussions, Koschei doesn't necessarily have other innate magic powers. Unlike a D&D lich, Koschei eats, drinks, gets tired and sleeps, goes hunting for entertainment, rides a horse, and fights with a sword. If you try to fight him wihout the phylactery, you lose (apparently because he's just that good with a sword: no mention of damage reduction, tirelessness or regeneration). In other stories, the phylactery isn't mentioned, and cutting his head off, hacking the body apart and burning it is a legit way to win. He becomes weak if bound, imprisoned and starved for years and instantly regains strength if fed (with regular food and water). Unlike the usually solitary Baba Yaga, Koschei is often a ruler and filthy rich, and he's never helpful.

Zmey Gorynych (literally "Serpent of the Mountain") is a fire-breathing dragon, often with several heads (three, two, five, seven, nine, ten, twelve). You kill him (or reduce the number of heads to a manageable amount, after which he gives up and promises to crawl under a rock and never bother anyone again) with an artifact sword. Note that Zmey flies and a typical Zmey-fighting hero doesn't have the means of flight so how the hero manages to reach the necks is unclear. (In movies, the hero might have a shield or armor of fire resistance, so Zmey has to attack in melee and gets beheaded.)

Various naughty feminine princesses have stashes of magic items and what is effectively at-will Suggestion. You perform her tasks with the aid of magic items or animal friends, or mundane trickery, she admits defeat, offers food and alcohol, you fall asleep and she tries to murder you (or steals your memory and you marry her, if you have a girlfriend back home). In the former case, if you survive or get resurrected and marry her, she becomes a dutiful wife. In the latter case, hope something rattles your memory or your girlfriend is a badass.

Warrior maiden princesses are built like experienced player characters. They have riches, magic items and palaces. You try to steal her magic items, she chases you, you fight, someone wins and you have consensual make-up sex. Unlike naughtly feminine princesses, warrior maidens don't cease being competent after marriage.

Environmental challenges vary. Characters travel overland on flying horses, carpets, wolves and wind elemental lords; to the bottom of the sea (which looks like dry land except without the sun), usually not of their free will; to the sky palaces of celestial bodies; to the land of the dead across the river of fire (by building a bridge with the handkerchief of building -- like the lyre of building but useful for sabotage, too), and there are even pocket dimensions (free a magical kingdom and it curls into a ball and rolls after you; you can go inside, store stuff there and take it out when needed). The hat of invisibility is ridiculously overpowered; for some reason it's used only for sneaking, not fighting. Shapeshifting protagonists are also ridiculously overpowered. (Shapeshifting princesses on the other hand are panicky idiots who turn into something inoffensive, run into the respective natural predators, and panic instead of turning back into a human). A victim of Baleful Polymorph can be turned back into a human by a simple chant if they are recognized by the spouse or relatives.

Resurrection is a thing. They way it's done, after someone's been hacked to bits, you collect all the bits, wash each in vodka, assemble the body like a jigsaw puzzle and sprinkle it with beer. Bam, healthy person, no level loss, no drawbacks. If someone's been eaten, you hunt down the perp, cut it open, remove the pieces (apparently, heroes are indigestible) and proceed as normal. If only bones remain, you bury them (watering with tears is optional) and out of them a tree grows which somehow becomes a person.

Legendary Heroes

Zmey Gorynych makes an appearance, occasionally with spawn. Spawn in large numbers are dangerous to a footman but easily trampled by a paladin's mount on a successful Ride (DC 15) check. Zmey's blood is a hazardous substance.

Tugarin Zmeyevich is Zmey's humanoid son. 12 metres tall -- well, "as tall as a centennial oak" but one oblique fathom of shoulder width, so I'm going with that, and rides an appropriately sized D&D Nightmare. Gets twice defeated by D&D rogue Alyosha Popovich, who feints, sneak attacks, and drops him in one blow.

Solovey (literally Nightingale) the Brigand, based on the Mokshan prince Zofks, is a solitary villain who ambushes merchants and travellers. His power is summoning galewinds by whistling; the winds are strong enough to tear trees out of the ground, knock golden tops off churches, and fucking kill (or render helpless, effectively winning the battle, in the kid-friendly version) people. If you have a high Fortitude save to withstand the wind, you can wrestle him to submission and threaten people with setting him loose. Although Solovey's physical strength is not a factor, his eldest daughter is freakishly strong, so he must be, too.

Prince Vladimir (world-ruler) the Red Sun is a mundane and an unreasonable dick, but he's the ruler of Kievan Rus and commands scores of other heroes who are collectively better than you. Social challenges include applying for a position with his guard, asking for military support, and feasting / boasting. If you lose a social challenge at a feast and are being shamed / dishonored (for poverty, peasant upbringing, alleged cowardice), a way to save face is to bet your head on something outrageous. If you get imprisoned, your best bets are another, better diplomancer who asks for your release, or an enemy invasion.

Armies of mooks aren't much of a threat to either the heroes or the villains. Villains typically use magical area attacks such as fire to disperse armies, heroes use Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave to sword a dozen mooks per round. An evil army is usually led by a named villain, who you then fight. A Rus army is typically leaderless, and their defeat necessitates the heroes' involvement.

Svyatogor-Bogatyr (Knight of the Holy Mountains) is a giant knight who wanders in the mountains because he's so overpowered that the flatlands "can't bear him". (As seen in Ilya Muromets' origin story: if you're overpowered, you sink into the soil and your steps cause earthquakes.) He's a nominally on the side of Rus, so, not a villain, but you might want to wrestle him or something, thus, counts as opposition.

Mikula Selyaninovich (villager's son) is another good guy you shouldn't wrestle unless you want to lose. He uses oversized farming equipment for crazy agricultural productivity (plants and reaps a field in a single day) and is ridiculously overpowered, but he's a peasant so the earth bears him just fine.

The Sea King rules all the seas and navigable large lakes. He demands arbitrary tribute from ships to not wreck them and drown everyone on board; while normally bread, salt, gold and and silver appear to be satisfactory, if the hero is on board, the Sea King typically demands the hero's life just because. Alternatively, you can get tossed into the water by your enemies. While the Sea King is never described as particularly tough, the catch is that you can't return to dry land without his permission.

Mundane people (sexy maidens, tribute-evading city merchants, fellow wayfarers) will try to assassinate you (often with traps or debilitating poison), but they're personally wimps.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:15 pm

The Sea King rules all the seas and navigable large lakes. He demands arbitrary tribute from ships to not wreck them and drown everyone on board; while normally bread, salt, gold and and silver appear to be satisfactory, if the hero is on board, the Sea King typically demands the hero's life just because. Alternatively, you can get tossed into the water by your enemies. While the Sea King is never described as particularly tough, the catch is that you can't return to dry land without his permission.

While he's not particularly tough himself, he has hordes of undead and water spirits under his command.

Svyatogor-Bogatyr (Knight of the Holy Mountains) is a giant knight who wanders in the mountains because he's so overpowered that the flatlands "can't bear him". (As seen in Ilya Muromets' origin story: if you're overpowered, you sink into the soil and your steps cause earthquakes.) He's a nominally on the side of Rus, so, not a villain, but you might want to wrestle him or something, thus, counts as opposition.

Svyatogor has problems because he's a filthy pagan, and so holy Rus rejects him. He's also a braggart. Mikula Selyaninovich owns Svyatogor, by daring him to lift Mikula's bag. Mikula is The peasant, and so he bears the weight of Rus on his shoulders, and Svyatogor sinks into the earth trying to lift it.

Zmey Gorynych (literally "Serpent of the Mountain") is a fire-breathing dragon, often with several heads (three, two, five, seven, nine, ten, twelve). You kill him (or reduce the number of heads to a manageable amount, after which he gives up and promises to crawl under a rock and never bother anyone again) with an artifact sword. Note that Zmey flies and a typical Zmey-fighting hero doesn't have the means of flight so how the hero manages to reach the necks is unclear.

In the "Dobrinya Nikitich and Zmey Gorynych" bylina Dobrinya hides in the river from Zmey's firebreathing, and when the Zmey goes into melee beats him into submission with his hat (which he filled with sand).
Dobrinya explicitly brings a bow with him, but loses it when he hides in the river. The following battle is filled with anime combat effects - walls crumble, trees get torn apart by the might of their blows.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:17 am

Longes wrote:That's the Sea Tzar. He lives in the sea

are you shitting me

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:49 am

JigokuBosatsu wrote:
Longes wrote:That's the Sea Tzar. He lives in the sea
are you shitting me

I always thought he lived in a desert. I have now been enlightened.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:08 pm

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:06 pm

So in all seriousness, based on our resident Russians' opinions, the whole setting's opposition could be fitted into the CR <= 10 range. Would I be far wrong?

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:16 pm

Nope. Slavic folklore is like most folklore in the sense that while epic things do occur (see Koschei the Deathless) the heroes are more or less human, which means the threats are usually defeated by more or less human ways.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:37 pm

koz wrote:So in all seriousness, based on our resident Russians' opinions, the whole setting's opposition could be fitted into the CR <= 10 range. Would I be far wrong?

The whole setting can be fitted into the CR = 1 range, because the heroes are all fighters/rogues, so every problem they are solving is solved by the abilities they have at level 1. I.e., by using opposable thumbs and a tongue. The difference between CR 1 Zmey Gorynich and CR 10 Zmey Gorynich is in the numbers he throws at you, and not in anything he actually does. Dobrinya beats him up with a hat, and then kills him with a sword, and it doesn't matter if he's level 1 or level 10 when he's doing that.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:42 am

koz wrote:I always thought he lived in a desert. I have now been enlightened.

He actually doesn't. The Sea King lives in the undersea kingdom which looks like dry land. No word on whether there are bodies of water and if yes, who rules them.

koz wrote:So in all seriousness, based on our resident Russians' opinions, the whole setting's opposition could be fitted into the CR <= 10 range. Would I be far wrong?

Russia acquired writing with Christianity, so myths which might have featured gods and heroes throwing galaxies at each other didn't survive. Fairytale plots aren't D&D material at all; if you're going to drop fairytale names into a D&D setting, it can be done at any level. The Legendary Heroes setting is EL6, with all core classes represented.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:19 pm

Hasn't Baba Yaga's threat level varied depending on the version of the tale anyway?

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:27 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:Hasn't Baba Yaga's threat level varied depending on the version of the tale anyway?

The imagery varies. In some stories, she's a geriatric kidnapper who gets baked in an oven by the most recent target. In other stories, she gets shamed into hospitality by the hero and gives him a magical ball of thread. In yet other stories, she rules a kingdom and has a shield which shoots fire, and Koschei had to serve her to earn a magical foal from her herds. But the threat level stays the same: mundane characters (who would be 1st level in D&D) routinely kill her, rob her, and diplomacize free magical items off her.

Fairytales are static ("single-author" doesn't quite fit) fiction which runs on adventure game logic, not on d20. If characters who are allegedly dumb and useless succeed through "sheer luck" and characters who are prudent and powerful fail, the CR/class/level system can't adequately describe such a world and generate action outcomes for it. In D&D, if one sword does 1d6 damage and another 6d12, it's easy to tell which one is more powerful. Now which one of these items is more powerful:

• A herbalist's potion.
• A fine-edged broadsword.
• A musical pipe.
• An axe with strange carvings.
• A bag containing teeth.
• A fine, glittering jewel.

?
You can't tell, because it depends on what arbitrary stuff you're going to encounter. Maybe you'll need to chop down a tree, so the broadsword is a bad choice of weapon. Maybe you'll need to charm a snake. Maybe you'll need to fight a war and a witch offers you to plant some tooth warriors for you. Such stories in tabletop can be supported by a Trait-based system where you are a Goblin Ratcatcher with Disease Immunity and Trapmaking, or a Shepherd with Tracking and Animal Handling, or a Singer who talks to birds and can ask them for favors. In fairytales, you don't kill a dragon because you have a high BAB, you kill a dragon with an artifact sword which you found by asking a sparrow or reading a map.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:03 pm

Starmaker wrote:
koz wrote:I always thought he lived in a desert. I have now been enlightened.
He actually doesn't. The Sea King lives in the undersea kingdom which looks like dry land. No word on whether there are bodies of water and if yes, who rules them.

Just to be clear, I'll quote from Afanasiev's version of "The Sea Tzar and Vasilisa the Wise". (Vasilisa the Wise is the generic name of sorcerer-princesses that Ivan the Fool/Prince marries)

And Ivan the Prince went to the undersea kingdom; and he sees - there is the same world as ours, and there are fields, and meadows, and green groves, and the sun is shining.

The story also features Ivan being a dick to the magical old woman (you know the type), before feeling bad and apologizing (and getting a useful advice).

Shrieking Banshee · Post by **Shrieking Banshee** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:41 pm

A thing you gotta know with Russian folktales is that they are often sung in song. So in a sense the heroes journeys are like new stansas.

Thats why Russian heroes often repeat something over and over in greater numbers EI:

And so the cat broke through the bronze net, the silver net, but not the gold net.

And then the cat escaped from the silver trap, the gold trap, but not the bronze trap.

Or something to that function.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:05 pm

Longes wrote:
koz wrote:So in all seriousness, based on our resident Russians' opinions, the whole setting's opposition could be fitted into the CR <= 10 range. Would I be far wrong?
The whole setting can be fitted into the CR = 1 range, because the heroes are all fighters/rogues, so every problem they are solving is solved by the abilities they have at level 1. I.e., by using opposable thumbs and a tongue. The difference between CR 1 Zmey Gorynich and CR 10 Zmey Gorynich is in the numbers he throws at you, and not in anything he actually does. Dobrinya beats him up with a hat, and then kills him with a sword, and it doesn't matter if he's level 1 or level 10 when he's doing that.

By those standards the whole greek mythology can be fit in the CR=1 range. Hercules doesn't fly nor shoot laser beams, he just has big numbers. Ulysses is just a solid warrior and great at using his tongue to talk his way out of trouble. Even supposedly indestructible-skin Acquilles gets killed by some coward pussy with a bow. The named characters/monsters are killed with regular swords and spears and arrows and polished metal or tricked by simple words.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:24 pm

Yes. Level and CR are only really important for spellcasters, who get actual new abilities at certain levels. There's no level at which the fighter stops stabbing people in the face and starts flying or summoning demons. So for a fighter the entire CR thing is basically an illusion where you start throwing an arbitrarily bigger number at the new enemies with arbitrarily bigger numbers. CR 1 Nightingale and CR 10 Nightingale are being defeated by the exact same method - getting close and stabbing in the face.
For a spellcaster CR 3 and CR 9 present different problems with different solutions. For a fighter CR is just a scale for comparing who you can and can't stab in the face.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:56 am

Are there any myths that actually go to D&D levels of power at any part?

So far anytime one has been brought up, it's been mostly just CR 1-5 level stuff.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:17 am

icyshadowlord wrote:Are there any myths that actually go to D&D levels of power at any part?

By this kind of standards, Journey to the West with the Monkey King who can change size and create armies of clones and a crapload of other special powers.

Also the christian bible with raise dead and greater restoration and auto-life and control water/weather and storms of vengeance and polymorph any object I guess.

K · Post by K » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:03 pm

DnD is really only a simulator for oldschool fantasy novels. Sometimes you are a Wizard of Earthsea and sometimes you are Conan (novels of the 60s), but at no point are you Beowolf or Loki or Paul Bunyan.

It's a simple progression where the myths and fairy tales inspired the fantasy novels and the fantasy novels inspired DnD, so it's not hard to see the mythological DNA in the final product.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:52 pm

maglag wrote:
icyshadowlord wrote:Are there any myths that actually go to D&D levels of power at any part?
By this kind of standards, Journey to the West with the Monkey King who can change size and create armies of clones and a crapload of other special powers.

Also the christian bible with raise dead and greater restoration and auto-life and control water/weather and storms of vengeance and polymorph any object I guess.

Don't forget in the old testament.
The oil test!
These pagan priest try to make fire (but it won't start), the old testament jews ones used water and burn the pagan priests.
Don't remember where in the old testament, but I remember that sequence.

Don't remember why the two groups were having a fire test, but they were.

Now I remember: Elijah and the bulls maybe in Kings I think.