Feats and PrCs--How should they be handled?

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Post by Orion »

OgreBattle wrote: How would you design a paragon path that an arcane caster, sneaky rogue, and armored knight could all enter without feeling gimped?
You can't. If you write 3 progression tracks for a paragon paths so that it can be played sneaky or as a tank or as artillery, you actually wrote 3 paragon paths, and your paths are not class-independent at all.
Would these 3 characters now play the same because they're now the same paragon class, or would their initial base class levels still be a big part of their identity and mechanics?
It would have to be option A. Personally, I'm not convinced that literally every base class needs to feed into literally every paragon class. I don't think there should be class *restrictions* on paragon entry, because if you add those you're inevitably going to quash a bunch of viable concepts. At the same time, if it turns out that playing a Knight/Shadowdancer is a bad idea, I'm not going to cry.
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Post by schpeelah »

OgreBattle wrote:
You have any new thoughts to add to that? There was also a previous discussion on whether paragon classes should enhance base class abilities or just offer a new set of level appropriate powers to basically replace them. How would you design a paragon path that an arcane caster, sneaky rogue, and armored knight could all enter without feeling gimped? Would these 3 characters now play the same because they're now the same paragon class, or would their initial base class levels still be a big part of their identity and mechanics?
Back in 2012 when the resource management and multiclassing thread (or maybe it was a different big multiclassing thread?) was going on, the answer was "either make Paragon such a leap in power it basically doesn't matter what you were before, or make the Paragon classes govern separate magisteria such that skirmish combat still uses your Heroic class and the Paragon only matters for travelling to other planets or surviving death rays".
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Post by MGuy »

I never really liked PrCs to begin with and as far as classes go I've been feeling less and less inclined to make them as rigid as they are in 3rd. Right now I believe classes work best if they just provide certain base benefits and a theme (preferably with the base benefits supporting that theme) while the rest of the things a character can do in a game are determined by what abilities they decide to grab up as they gain levels.

For example the 'Druid' in the game I'm dreaming up gives you access to a base ability "Commune with Nature" and a selection of one of three themes to center their character around: Elements, beasts, plants. So you come out of the gate with a number of special rituals, skill ranks, and abilities centered around your class and theme. Everything else you do, what skills to develop, weapons you use, abilities you acquire as you level, are up to you.

So the Druid in question could choose to be a Beast Master. They get a pet beast, a ritual for summoning pet beast, and abilities that come online as you level revolving around upgrading your beast into a magical beast along with the ability to transform into a magical beasty yourself. The Commune with Nature bit you get from the start means that you can use all your (non ritual) beast themed abilities at no cost.

Everything else is up to the player. The talents, spells, rituals, etc a character picks up from there is up to them. You could have three dog loving beast Druids that start out mostly the same only to grab abilities and talents, and spells that make them diverge where one is a dimension hopping blink dog trainer, another is a hell hound retaining pyromaniac, and the last summons a pack of winter wolves that don't mind the cold based spells he favors.

At least that's how I imagine it for right now anyways.
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Post by MGuy »

On the subject of Feats, shouldn't there be abilities (not necessarily feats but we can go with that) that NPCs should have access to? There are a number of feats that I believe have been mentioned that would greatly benefit NPCs more so than PCs. I think there should be a section in an imagined better DnD where there are a list of feats/talents/whatever that GMs could slap on to background NPCs to say make them better at their day job that players who spend their time doing adventure stuff wouldn't be as good at.
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Post by MfA »

FrankTrollman wrote:And finally, the fact that once you jump into a Paragon class, you're still on the class rails you started on, that's completely fucked. It means that none of the Paragon Classes could ever provide real transformative advancement.
When they're mandatory the amount of class features you put into the base class and how many into parallel progression type paragon paths is arbitrary ... and in the end the PrCs which people actually took were almost always progressions of their base class in one way or another to begin with. The PrCs with say casting prerequisites but which didn't actually progress it were never very popular.

Also I'd find it distasteful if a fighter taking a rogueish paragon path would end up nearly the same as a rogue taking a fighterish paragon path ... and I doubt I'm alone in this. I think the player base actually wants the base class to shine through a bit.

I'd make the most basic paragon path Gestalt, where from level 6 you get another class in parallel ... and balance everything against the good combos available that way. That's plenty of power to transform the playstyle for the character.
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:You have any new thoughts to add to that? There was also a previous discussion on whether paragon classes should enhance base class abilities or just offer a new set of level appropriate powers to basically replace them. How would you design a paragon path that an arcane caster, sneaky rogue, and armored knight could all enter without feeling gimped? Would these 3 characters now play the same because they're now the same paragon class, or would their initial base class levels still be a big part of their identity and mechanics?
The short answer is that you can carry over anything that doesn't synergize so well as to become defacto prerequisites. So the thing you definitely can't do is the thing where in 3rd edition if you go into Loremaster with 8 levels of Wizard then you get teleport and if you go into Loremaster with 8 levels of Bard you.. don't.

Now your three character sketches have a few problems. The first is the sneaky Rogue. Stealth should not be a protected skill. Every character needs to sneak around sometimes. A character can be more sneaky, but only in the sense that they can invest in having a higher Willpower defense or doing more melee damage or something. Being a stealth specialist is simply doing something everyone can do, but better than whatever the minimum values for your level.

The armored knight is fundamentally the same problem. Having level appropriate defenses is definitionally something everyone needs to have. Level appropriate defenses presemably come in a range, and an armored character has invested character abilities and equipment into being closer to the top of that range than the bottom.

The Sneaky Rogue and the Armored Knight are both just characters who have a universal quantity that they specifically are "relatively good at" in addition to being level appropriate with. That is not, or at least should not be a defining measure of a character that makes or breaks their synergy with a Paragon class. If one Witch Queen goes to war with black plate armor and higher defenses and another Witch Queen goes to war with a black cloak and better scouting skills, that's fine. Those aren't fundamentally different characters to the point where they can't be recognizably the same class.

And Arcane Casters do "whatever" in D&D. Having spells is importantly different than not having them, but what they actually do is totally all over the place. What matters for class balance and synergy systems is not how people are dressed or what the theme of the character is, but literally what they can do and what resource management they have to concern themselves with to do it. I mean, yes Arcane Casters are immiscible with non-Arcane Caster concepts if you have a 3e-ish rule where all your levels have to be Arcane Caster Levels if you want to cast level appropriate spells, but there's no particular reason to do that. 3e's rules on multicasters are bad, and if you moved forward you'd want to do the progression between heroic tier classes and paragon tier classes in such a way that it didn't fail in that particular way.

So an "Arcane Caster" might be a sneaky rogue or an armored knight. Or they might be an Illusionist or an Abjurer who, if the rules are functioning well, should be functionally the same thing: a level appropriate character who has invested in being good at stealth and defense respectively. Needless to say, if your Paragon Class can handle an entry point that either has or has not invested character resources in being at the upper end of level appropriate in Stealth, they should be able to handle it equally well whether those investments were flavored as Batman training or learning spells.

4th edition was basically written by insane people, but there actually is some insight to be had from the whole "roles" and "power sources" debacle. Namely that power sources are ultimately flavor text and have no actual game effects unless you write in game mechanics for them to have. Secondly, that whether a character is a healer or a crowd controller is important in a way that whether they fight with a staff or a glaive is not. The only reason you wouldn't be able to go into the same progressions and use the same powers as a Fire Mage (artillery character with a wand) and a Seeker (artillery character with a bow) is if you created a rule that said you couldn't.

Now that being said, once you start having characters with actually interesting abilities, it becomes a bit harder and the solution space becomes a tad more difficult to describe. If characters have different resource management systems, which they should, then they are perforce going to interact differently with new abilities from new classes. A character with a big power and a cool-down timer is going to benefit more from getting a new once per battle nova attack than a character with medium power at-will abilities.

As Schpeelah correctly notes, there are a couple of methods of dealing with this issue. The first is to give the Paragon classes abilities that interact with mass battles, exploration, economics, and other magisteria that the main class abilities of heroic tier classes have little impact on. An Assassin would keep fighting with aimed shots and a crossbow and an Elementalist would keep bending fire and water whether they had become Dreamspeakers and Angel Knights or whatever.

And the second easy solution is to give Stormlords big thunderstrike attacks or the Mindlord big psionic blasts that make whatever Paladin prayers or Druid invocations they happened to have meaningless. In this model, while you might still have Heroic Feats or Illusionist Tricks or whatever, you are never going to use them so it doesn't matter. The big spanner in these works are of course "pet classes" like the Druid or the Necromancer. By having your offense split between actions "you" take and actions that your "pet" takes, you severely undermine the model as soon as the actions "you" take are Angel Knight Wraths or Witch Queen Curses or something.

And finally, there are hybrid systems. You could set it up so that the resource management systems of Paragon classes were such that you'd fall back on Heroic Tier class acts some percentage of the time. This is harder to design overall, but it does make it easier to create space for pet classes. All you have to do is to have the Druid's invocations scale up more slowly than the Berserker's rages such that the rounds where they are forced to use them are sufficiently sub par as to make up for the fact that their murder of crows continues to take actions when they are using their Witch Queen abilities.

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Post by virgil »

What if you have a graduation present at the end of a Heroic class? When you take your Paragon class, the only thing you keep from your younger years is your Heroic capstone. Have the resource management scheme for the capstone be unified and about as huge a benefit as the Tomb Tainted or Educated feat.
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Post by Grek »

Why not an additive system? You get your Heroic Tier abilities, which use the Heroic Tier action economy, and you get your Paragon Tier abilities which use the Paragon Tier action economy. If Heroic actions all take standard and move actions and Paragon abilities all take swift and immediate actions, there's no reason why you can't keep using all of your Heroic Tier abilities for full credit as a Paragon character.
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Post by schpeelah »

That's quite possibly the worst solution. If you make it so a Paragon character is supposed to be using both their Heroic and Paragon abilities at the same time, you'll maximize the synergy and anti-synergy between various class matchups, guaranteeing that there will be right and wrong Heroic-Paragon class combinations. The whole exercise is to try and and avoid that.
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Post by Grek »

The whole exercise is to let the game phase out mundane tier concepts as you game goes past their shelf life and to provide more personalized advancement for players at higher levels. If there are good combinations and bad combinations as a result, that is honestly fine as long as the good combinations are both numerous and represent the concepts that people actually want to play.
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Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:The big spanner in these works are of course "pet classes" like the Druid or the Necromancer. By having your offense split between actions "you" take and actions that your "pet" takes, you severely undermine the model as soon as the actions "you" take are Angel Knight Wraths or Witch Queen Curses or something.
Well at that point, Wizard Angel Knights aren't gaining new Wizard spells, or even scaling their existing ones up, so the Druid's pet bear can just not pokevolve into a Legendary Dire Polar Bear or whatever. So the pet ends up dropping off in use, being "a scout with its nose" and "something that provides cover against ranged attacks until it gets killed". Similarly, a Necromancer that goes into Witch Queen doesn't get to keep amassing an army of skeletons or keep adding power to his Wyvern Wight or whatever, and it ends up being a flavour thing/ablative armour/a form of winged flight.
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Post by Mistborn »

Is it the end of the world if some heroic-paragon combinations are better than others as long as every class has a decent menu of options that are defensible life choices? Because it seems like that cost of that is continuity of character concepts. I'm not sure I want to play a system where Ned the Necromancer in the course of one level switches from being a squishy minionmancer to a front-line brawler because he took Angel Knight as his paragon path.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Maybe we want a system where it's just sort of assumed that everyone has the potential to get a stack of mooks if they feel like it, and we only limit cohort-level henches.
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Post by OgreBattle »

So what are appropriate base level concepts and paragon level concepts? From a discussion on resource management we have these 17 base level resource management systems:
10KF, Classes wrote:
The Assassin

"He is a man who would be greatly improved by death."


Precision
An Assassin's special maneuvers require delicate placement and precise timing. In order to gain the precision required they must spend a certain amount of time aiming, plotting, and gauging possibilities. The action is called "plotting", and can be of variable length. An Assassin may spend a minor, move, or full-round action plotting to build up precision against a single specific target they can see (or otherwise perceive), after which they may use any of their maneuvers that have that much precision minimum or less. The plotting action can be combined with drawing or loading a weapon, but not with moving. Crossbows and poison use are popular among Assassins in no small part because they can spend a move action plotting while still loading their weapon. An Assassin who targets any other creature than the target of their plot loses any built-up precision. If an Assassin has precision against a target and that target leaves their line of sight, all the precision is lost.
The Berserker

"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."

Fury
A Berserker fights by drawing upon deep reserves of strength, which are chaneled through pain, fear, and rage. As the Berserker takes damage or attacks foes, they gain fury. The Berserker can then spend their fury to activate their abilities. Fury is physically exhausting, and whenever a Berserker gains even one point of fury they will become fatigued five minutes later, whether they still have that fury or not.
Cleric

"I speak for powers that be. If thou resistesth me, thou resisteth them."

Patience
A Cleric's magic is drawn from sources mystical and ancient. They may be gods or vestiges of ideals and titans long forgotten. But whatever the source, it is a source that does not have limitless patience for a Cleric's requests for aid. Whenever a Clerical prayer invokes a magical effect, that prayer cannot be used for a certain amount of time afterward. The patience limit is different for different prayers, and how recently one prayer has been used does not affect how long another one will become unusable after it is next called upon.
The Druid

"When we have learned to listen to trees, to mountains, to the sky itself, we will have learned to listen to ourselves."

Spirits
Druids have special relationships with totemic spirits. Each spirit represents some totemic ideal such as "Oak" or "Thunder". When a Druid calls to the spirits as a minor action, one of them will answer. Which one answers is randomly determined from among those that the Druid has a pact with each call. Each spirit has powers that it makes available to the Druid until the beginning of the Druid's next turn. As a Druid rises in level, the powers that each totem spirit provide are enhanced.
The Elementalist

"There is not anything that returns to nothing, but all things dissolved into their elements."

Channeling
Every Elementalist draws power from two elements, but the strength of their connection to these forces ebbs and flows. The process of attempting to get as much elemental power as possible is called channeling. Each turn, an Elementalist may spend a minor action to channel, and in doing so rolls one die for each of their elements (either rolled in sequence or rolling dice of two different colors to represent the two elements). At first level, those dice are d4s, but as Elementalists become more powerful they roll larger dice. An Elementalist rolls a d6 for each element at level 3, a d8 for each element at level 5, a d10 for each element at level 7, and a d12 for each element at level 9. Powers within an element are ordered and can be activated only if the Elementalist has channeled enough power in that element on that round. If an Elementalist of Fire and Air channels a 2 for Fire and a 3 for Air, they may activate an Air power of rank 3 or less and activate a Fire power of rank 1 or 2.

If an Elementalist elects not to channel on a turn, they may still use rank 1 powers of their elements. Elementalists may channel while they are not in combat, and by taking ten rounds to channel, may guaranty a maximum result, allowing them to use any power available to them given time.

The Elements
Understanding the ways of magic and the formation of the universe is notoriously difficult and is often considered to be amongst the "big questions" that will never truly be answered. At different times in history, schools of thought have pinned the number of elements at four or five, differing markedly as to what those were. Current magical theory includes space for seven elements, merely collecting all the non-overlapping elements from the magical books of fallen empires and ancient cities. There is no reason to believe that future elementalists will not discover more.
The Enchanter

"There are those who call me..."

Discharge
An Enchanters magic is imbued into objects or people over a period of several minutes. While a spell is charged into something it provides an ongoing benefit. A charged sword might make the wielder slightly stronger or a charged belt might make the wielder slightly tougher, for example. When an enchanter sets up a charge, they choose a buff effect and a spell effect. At a later point in time, an Enchanter may discharge their spell into something in line of sight of the charged item by spending a standard action while they are within line of sight of the charge (both the Enchanter and the target must be in line of sight of the charged item, but they need not be in line of sight of each other). When the spell is discharged, it takes effect but the item is no longer charged and no longer provides any special benefit. As an Enchanter goes up in level, the number of charges they may have going simultaneously increases.
The Hero

"The people who we fight have heroes of their own. Let's hope ours are better."


Feats
A Hero's feats can be used at any time, any number of times, and in any order. Any feat the Hero has learned can be used at will.
The Illusionist

"Of course it's an illusion. What good does that knowledge do you?"

Spell Preparation
An Illusionist can prepare a number of spells into their spell slots by spending five minutes with a spell book getting their tricks ready. Each spell can be used once before the next time the Illusionist prepares spells.
The Marshal

"Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none."

Tide of Battle
A Marshal is at their best when they see an opportunity and seize it. During the swirl of melee or the clashing of arms, it is virtually impossible to predict what opportunities might arise. Maybe an ogre will stumble out of position, allowing an ally to slip behind it if the opening is called to their attention, maybe an ally will be in harm's way of the ogre's hammer unless a timely warning is called out. A Marshal could give any orders, shout any warnings, offer the most fascile of advice. But the actual battle orders that will make a difference are entirely situational. Each turn of a battle (or other perilous situation where initiative has been rolled), a Marshal's player will randomly generate which Battle Orders are potentially useful that round at the beginning of their turn. At first level, generate a Warning, one Tactic, and one War Cry each turn. A higher level Marshal has more options at their disposal each turn. Outside of combats, Marshals may not use their Battle Orders, though they may still use Strategems.

The Monk

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."


Styles
Consumate martial artists, Monks practice many forms and have several fighting styles available to them. Each style a Monk knows has associated maneuvers within it that can be used once while the style is being used. At the start of battle, a Monk may begin fighting in a specific style as a free action in their first turn, but thereafter changing or adopting a style is a full round action. A Monk is free to "change" their style into the same fighting style they were already using in order to be able to reuse maneuvers in the same combat - this represents the character adjusting their fighting style to match their opponents' adapting to the moves they've already used. Monks are fully capable of using their fighting styles outside of combat if they want to use their combat maneuvers in another context.
The Necromancer

"Life flows through all things. Where it flowed in the past, it can flow again."


Essence
A Necromancer powers their magic and imbues their minions with their own life essence. Any minion or magical power has a minimum amount of essence to function at all. If insufficient essence is placed into a power it cannot be activated and its ongoing effects are nullified until sufficient essence is placed into it again. If a necromantic minion has insufficient essence to power it, it cannot act until it gets enough essence again and is helpless in the meantime. Essence beyond the minimum can be assigned to powers and minions up to a maximum total increase in any one equal to the Necromancer's level. The Necromancer's pool can be redistributed once per round as a minor action. As a Necromancer rises in level, they have a larger pool of essence to distribute. When the Necromancer is wounded (half hit points), they lose a quarter of their essence, which if they have already allocated their essence is lost from the Necromancer's powers and minions. Lost essence returns (unallocated) if they are no longer wounded. If a Necromancer is incapacitated (zero hit points) or killed, they lose another quarter of their essence. Any minions still active after a Necromancer is slain go on an uncontrolled rampage.
The Paladin

"Courage is the greatest virtue. It allows you to stand up for all the others."


Inspiration
Paladins often throw themselves into battle with nary a heed to the consequences, because they have a purpose which is larger than they are. Though a Paladin can use their abilities an unlimited number of times per day, they have a limited number of abilities that are "ready" at any given time. Further, the Paladin relies upon the flash of divine or fanatical inspiration in battle and does not have full control over what abilities can be used at any given moment. The Paladin can change what maneuvers they have readied with five minutes of prayer and planning, but each round the Paladin randomly determines which abilities are "available" from among their readied abilities. The abilities are determined randomly at the beginning of the Paladin's turn, and continue to be available until the beginning of the character's next turn.

The Psion

"In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the mind."


Power
A Psion has a number of power points which rises as they go up in level. Manifesting a psionic discipline costs a number of power points. More potent disciplines cost more and weaker disciplines cost less. Some psionic disciplines can be manifested to a greater effect in exchange for a higher psionic point cost. For example: every target past the first affected by Nightmare World increases the power point cost. A Psion regains power points over time (1/10th of their total every minute).
The Rogue

"You have taken the bait. This is already over."

Catches
A Rogue's tricks require susceptible targets. While there is no specific limit to how often a Rogue can use their abilities, each trick has a set of requirements for when it can be used at all. These requirements are collectively called catches. If a trick's catches have been fulfilled, that ability can be used. Some tricks have multiple catches connected by "and" or "or". These are importantly different! For example: the fundamental trick "Sneak Attack" that all Rogue's have has as its catches that the proposed target must be either be flanked or impaired or be unable to detect the Rogue. If any of these three conditions are met, the Rogue can use Sneak Attack against that target. On the other hand, the defensive trick "Misdirection" has as its catches that the Rogue be threatening an enemy and be being attacked by a different enemy. In order to use Misdirection, the Rogue must fulfill both catches at the same time.
Sorcerer

"All things are linked."

Backlash
When a Sorcerer casts spells they risk being hurt by backlash. Every Sorcerer spell has a backlash number, and when a Sorcerer casts it they roll their resistance. Every point their resistance roll falls short of the backlash number, the Sorcerer takes a point of damage. Some of a Sorcerer's spells can be cast for greater effect in exchange for a higher backlash number. For example: every additional target past the first adds to the risked backlash of Chain Lightning.
The Warlock

"Everyone knows that power has a price. But I know what that price is."

Price
A Warlock's most powerful magic drains their own life energy in order to use it. A Warlock can use their cantrips and minor invocations without fear, but to use their major arcana requires that they pay a price. The prices of each major arcana are listed
The Wizard

"It's only real magic if it's still magic after you've seen how it is done."

Spell Memorization
A Wizard has a number of spell slots that they can fill with individual spells by spending an hour pouring over their spellbook. Once a spell is memorized into one of their spell slots, it can be cast an unlimited number of times until the next time the Wizard memorizes spells.
It would be pretty straightforward to just say they all have a paragon version too, with things like "wields the power of storms" "powerful psychic", "made a pact with demons" being flavor applied over their mechanics.
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Post by Username17 »

Clearly you would not make Paragon Classes have different versions for different resource types, nor would you split the Paragon Classes into different categories that you can take depending on what resource system your class uses. That kind of branching path content multiplies the amount of content that has to go into the book. 4e dropped with 8 heroic classes and 32 paragon classes and by all accounts that wasn't nearly enough. Remember that eventually you're going to have books like Banmires that have Paragon Classes like the Corpselight Whisperer, at thee start of the edition you aren't going to have that. The game needs to be playable out of the Player's Handbook, and that means that you have to cover an acceptable play space with just a dozen Paragon classes and about a hundred feats (which you wouldn't call feats, but you know what I mean).

The challenge then is two-fold. The first is to provide paragon classes sufficiently agnostic that despite there not being all that many you still have choice no matter what your heroic tier class was. As several people have pointed out, it's not necessary for every combination to be especially good. With 17 heroic classes and 12 paragon classes you're providing over two hundred combinations, and they don't all have to be gems. But there have to be enough gems that you aren't telling Paladins that they are required by law to become Mind Lords or something. And the second challenge is that the playspace needs to be expandable. You're going to write books like Stormwrack and Lace & Steel, and those books are going to want to have new content because that sells books. So when the Buccaneer comes out in Stormwrack or the Demagogue comes out in Lace & Steel, those classes have to plug into the class options existing in other books and not wither unloved on the vine like a 4e expansion class.

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Post by OgreBattle »

Here's 12 broad paragon class ideas:

Solar Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers via glowing gold
Lunar Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers via shapeshifting
Sidereal Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers via fate manipulation
Dragon Blooded: Fire- You gain level appropriate powers via fire manipulation
Dragon Blooded: Water- You gain level appropriate powers via water manipulation
Dragon Blooded: Wood- You gain level appropriate powers via wood manipulation
Dragon Blooded: Earth- You gain level appropriate powers via earth manipulation
Dragon Blooded: Air- You gain level appropriate powers via air manipulation
Abyssal Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers shrouded in chaotic darkness
Infernal Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers shrouded in tyrannical darkness
Alchemical Exalt- You gain level appropriate powers via turning into a robot
Skeletor Exalt: You gain level appropriate powers via turning undead
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Post by Schleiermacher »

To call back to the feat discussion for a moment... just for the sake of argument, if you went the opposite way with your feat paradigm, back to "tiny customization bonus that you get a ton of" (like one every level) what would be an appropriate power level for those feats?

You'd combine this with getting rid of feat chains and feat taxes of course, because that's a good idea regardless, but you'd have to pick a lower balance point than Frank's list, I should think.

I'm expecting stuff like Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, "Cleave+Great Cleave" and the "+2 to a save" feats to make an appearance, i.e the core feats that are decently good while not being feat taxes/autopicks.[/i]
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Post by ckafrica »

Would it be worth considering going back to a BECMI model where you're initial offering is simply the heroic tier and focuses on that level of game play, while the paragon tier gets released later and can focus on how that game level plays differently? It would certainly provide the benefit of giving you some time to make sure that the basics work well before trying to layer complexity on top of it.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Schleiermacher wrote: I'm expecting stuff like Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, "Cleave+Great Cleave" and the "+2 to a save" feats to make an appearance, i.e the core feats that are decently good while not being feat taxes/autopicks.[/i]
Most of those fiddly modifiers you mention are things governed by attribute allotment. High wisdom gives me a better Will save, high Dex gives me a better initiative, high Strength gives me better tripping. Then something like cleaving would just be good as part of the core mechanics for what happens after your barbarian plows through some gobbos.

I could see a system where class abilities are not very attribute dependent (such as a warrior not needing maxed out strength to be accurate with his sword) but still affect things like defenses/initiative so there's more flexibility in distributing the attribute points.

So instead of needing a "improved initiative" feat, I just have a character with more points sunk into dex.
Would it be worth considering going back to a BECMI model where you're initial offering is simply the heroic tier and focuses on that level of game play, while the paragon tier gets released later and can focus on how that game level plays differently? It would certainly provide the benefit of giving you some time to make sure that the basics work well before trying to layer complexity on top of it.
Some RPG's release "quick start boxes" that have levels 1-5 in a 20 level system to get new players into the game, D&D4e and Pathfinder did that recently. I could see that working as a way to release a new RPG if you price it right (or just offer it for free on your webpage).

And then later you release your Paragon PHB, and after that you release your complete adventurer's guide that just collects the two books into one.
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Post by Schleiermacher »

Yes, so could I, in fact that would probably be better -but that's not answering the question I asked. If you did want to use the "customization through a bunch of small bonuses" feat paradigm, what would be the right "size" of a feat?
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Post by tussock »

Grek wrote:What I do disagree with is the idea that it is somehow balanced for a third level character who already knows Summon Monster I to be presented with a choice between learning Summon Monster II and Cure Light Wounds. That is bullshit. The choice needs to always be between Summon Monster I and Cure Light Wounds, OR between Summon Monster II and Cure Moderate Wounds. It can't be balanced otherwise.
Oh, absolutely. Getting to the end of a feat chain is bad because you have to pick a new zero-rank feat. It's also a bad thing if you're forced to pick from an open pool of equal-power feats as you keep going up levels.

Because there's your favourite four or five feats, and then you're 12th level and have to pick feats that you didn't even want at 1st level, or at any other time. Getting progressively worse choices at higher levels is bad. Picking your 7th favourite bullshit low-level power as an 18th level character is not a choice, it's a chore.

4e D&Ds basic concept of having heroic feats, paragon feats, and epic feats was good (it's much older, but obvious there). The execution of incredibly useless feats that were eventually replaced by a series of math fixes was horrendous. They made errata all the fucking time but they couldn't just give everyone +1 to hit and save now and then, despite completely throwing out the entire skill challenge system several times. Gah, 4e! Everything about that damnable edition.
The argument you are making here is fucking stupid on multiple levels. Let me break it down for the audience:
  • When Grek said "Making all feats be level specific lowers the number of useful feats available at a given level", that was the opposite of true.
  • There are way too many feats printed in 3rd edition. Like, thousands of them.
  • By lowering the number of feats that are useful at a given level, having level specific feats makes it so that the majority of feats do not need to be considered at level up.
  • Decreasing the number of feats under consideration increases the number feats you will consider to be useful. Somehow. Or maybe, if we're charitable, tussock meant "proportion of feat" instead. Despite absolute number being more important than proportion here.
  • That's a good thing.
  • Therefore what Grek said is false despite it needing to be true for this argument to work.
  • Warglebhlargle AD&D 1st level spells! High Level Casters with Cure Moderate Wounds! Read my other stupid post!
So let me try and make a clean argument.

In real editions of D&D, spells go up to 9th level. A high level caster can find spells of lower level to be useful (for real meanings of the word). This does not generally apply for level 0 or 1 spells in modern editions, but it used to. You can totally design 1st level spells that are useful throughout the game, despite being worse than similar spells of higher level.

So if your argument about tiered feats reducing useful options was correct, we should be able to talk about such tiered spells the same way.
And if you make all of your spells level specific, what you're really doing is just decreasing the number of useful spells people get at any given level.
What I'm saying, is that high level Wizards have a greater number of different spells which are useful, because they are forced to take low level spells, compared to if they could just choose any spell and spam it like a Psion.

Your 3rd level spells can't compete with your 7th level spells, at all, but you can still have useful 3rd level spells as a 14th level Wizard. While also getting progressively better choices on reaching higher levels.

The same applies to a theory of tiered feats. Even if you just randomly sort them into colour boxes, and make people take from each box over time, there would be more variety of feats considered useful by the player-base than there could possibly be from a single pool.

As a further benefit, the difficulty of such choices is greatly reduced by splitting the options into a small number of pools. The designers might even notice eventually that there are almost no 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th tier feats in the game at all, and they need to stop proliferating the 1st and 2nd tier stuff.
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Post by tussock »

ckafrica wrote:Would it be worth considering going back to a BECMI model where you're initial offering is simply the heroic tier and focuses on that level of game play, while the paragon tier gets released later and can focus on how that game level plays differently? It would certainly provide the benefit of giving you some time to make sure that the basics work well before trying to layer complexity on top of it.
The problems with that was the advanced stuff kept being backwards compatible, including with the ability sets and progressions thereof. Even if they gave you geniunely new low-level tricks (as they did in the Master set), they had to squeeze it into the underlying progressions and option sets of the classes.

1st edition fighters could use up through seven weapons, picked up as they aquired their random magical gear. 3e/4e Fighters can use one, because all the former "weapon" picks had become math fixes for the Fighter class that focus on one weapon for legacy reasons (it used to be a "weapon proficiency" slot that the fixes fitted in).

That's the sort of shit you'll get with higher level patches to low level design.

The Immortals set did one of Frank's suggestions here. Threw out all the math and started again. 1st level Immortals with power points that automatically defeat any Mortal while also doing the new God stuff. I don't think it can work well either, the games are going to be more fun for different people and then they won't play together in the other tiers. Instant split of the player base.
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Post by Grek »

tussock wrote:In real editions of D&D, spells go up to 9th level. A high level caster can find spells of lower level to be useful (for real meanings of the word). This does not generally apply for level 0 or 1 spells in modern editions, but it used to. You can totally design 1st level spells that are useful throughout the game, despite being worse than similar spells of higher level.
High level casters aren't ever learning low level spells instead of their high level spells. You never see a 13th level wizard picking Silent Image as one of his two free level up options. I have no objection in principle to a high level class ability that says you get these three 1st level feats free in addition to your real pick for the level. That's fine.

The argument I was making before is that if you have 200 feats which scale to all levels of play, that is ten times as many real choices as offering a choice between 10 level-specific feats at every one of your twenty levels. It doesn't matter if the feats are level specific because you literally can't take them at a higher level than they're first offered or merely because you'd be a fool to do so. It's less choices for the same writing effort, and that is bad.

E: Frank, who actually gives a flying fuck about selling books? If the Den ever did a "And here's how we would have did D&D paragon classes!" manuscript, I would bet you dollars to donuts nobody would bother trying to sell the thing. There's no money in it, and even if there were there's no way we'd be seeing any of it due to copyright claims.
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Post by virgil »

Grek wrote:E: Frank, who actually gives a flying fuck about selling books? If the Den ever did a "And here's how we would have did D&D paragon classes!" manuscript, I would bet you dollars to donuts nobody would bother trying to sell the thing. There's no money in it, and even if there were there's no way we'd be seeing any of it due to copyright claims.
Isn't After Sundown essentially the "here's how we would have did nWoD" manuscript? I technically tried to sell the thing. Granted, because I didn't pimp it or attempt to advertise, I never got the motivation to learn editing sufficient to fix the margin error; so it only sold enough units to cover the copyright fee for the cover image.
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Post by Grek »

That wasn't a real effort at selling it. You said it yourself: nobody tried to advertise it, and there was an option to torrent it for free.
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