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FatR
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Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
The fuck do you mean, unnecessary? Romance of the Three Kingdoms operated at the hundreds of thousands scale.
Romance of the Three Kingdoms also resolved about half of battles by commanders' duels, after which the loser's army routed or ceded the field. (Most of the rest by one of the opposing commanders coming up with a clever trick or maneuver.)

Which was one of the few realistic things related to ancient Chinese warfare in RotTK (well, relatively ancient, RotTK is roughly based on 14-15 century realities).

The core truth of pre-firearms combat in almost every period for close examination of which we have enough sources (thus antiquity is largely ruled out) is that quality trumps quantity super hard. It was mainly the matter of morale. Underequipped rable simply broke and routed in the face of better-armed, better-trained, more confident combatants - it is all good and well to say that a hundred conscripted Chinese peasants can mob down a dude who was rich enough to do nothing but practice with weapons his entire life, but in the real life all of those hundred will be asking themselves: who will go first and die to buy victory? And most likely answering: not me. More often than not battles were actually decided by clash of a few dozen of elite warriors (and note, than in the real life even Chinese armies were much fucking smaller than they appear in fiction). The only way to maintain a remotely noticeable portion of population in fighting shape was having them live a life where armed violence was a constant everyday threat. And even those who lived in societies like this, say, vikings were usually recruited of the wealthy elite of society (rich household owners, usually with numerous clients, servants and slaves in case of vikings).

Fuck, even today warlord forces whose real battle strength does not exceed a few hundreds men with AKs can and do lord over populations in tens and hundreds of thousands.

The problem with DnD society as depicted in 3.X is that it is way too capable of defending itself for no particular reason. Cities of the size that would be majorly threatened by, like, a robber baron and his twenty thugs in the real life, can field a sizeable force of superhuman characters. This is a flaw because heroes, after all, defined by being stronger and better that the rest of the people on their side, overabundance of high-level NPCs constantly threatens adventurers' spotlight.

And that is also the reason I don't like practically all iterations of DnD's mass combat so far. They are all guilty of pulling absolutely bullshit force numbers and strengths out of nowhere with no apparent reason than to make PCs less relevant. Red Hand of Doom, which is supposed to depict a minor fucking conflict, presents an enemy army numerically on the level of maximum mobilization effort of largest medieval states, just so that PCs would have no time to pick it apart with hit-and-run/leadership elimination tactics.

What a mass combat system should do in a world, which basic assumption itselves faciliate resolution of armed conflicts by small elite groups is to present a manageable mook squad system. Anything more is not really necessary. It is low fantasy games that have more pressing need for mass combat capable of handing large scale battles.
Lago PARANOIA wrote: Hell, even if we're just during fantasy Dark Ages Europe a few hundred isn't cutting it. If your mass combat minigame can't handle armies of thousands clashing together then you can't use it for L&D.
It does, considering that army sizes were in low thousands, and most of those were servants, squires and other chaff. Well, that, and field battles with armies clashing together were really rare. Warfare mostly consisted of raids, sieges and minor skirmishes. That applies not only to Europe, of course.
Last edited by FatR on Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Orca »

200 participants max is a system which can maybe handle goblins storming or sieging a village but which fails utterly if they attack a market town. It can handle raids where there isn't time to call up levies on a slightly larger scale of course.

As to whether a 200 system could be extended to 2000 - it completely depends what you've come up with. You could use it to handle a small section of a larger engagement and handwave the rest without extending it, but I'm not sure what the value of that would be if you already have a personal scale system.
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Post by Ice9 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Mask_D_H wrote:There's a Japanese system that's all about Logistics and Dragons called Meikyuu Kingdom. Everyone plays a member of a kingdom's ruling body that also goes on dungeon delves. It's being translated I think.
Do go on.
I've run Meikyuu Kingdom; in fact, it was because I was looking for this exact kind of Logistics and Dragons action.

It has a quirky setting I like, and the system's fairly workable (requires too much cross-referencing for the amount of hand-waving needed though; it really needs an app), and it has random tables for damn near everything, which is handy for sandbox play.

However, the actual kingdom building doesn't work. Or rather, it works as a monument to the PCs' accomplishments, not as a kingdom simulator. Kingdoms produce a fairly static income, which goes up more slowly than their upkeep costs, and there's nothing you can build to help that. The only thing that can keep a large kingdom operating is high-level PCs going and looting lots of shit to pay for the upkeep, and the building effects are primarily in support of that purpose (providing buffs for the PCs).
Last edited by Ice9 on Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

FatR wrote:And that is also the reason I don't like practically all iterations of DnD's mass combat so far. They are all guilty of pulling absolutely bullshit force numbers and strengths out of nowhere with no apparent reason than to make PCs less relevant.
You know what? You're wrong. Huge force numbers is genre appropriate.

Yes, in "normal times" an Orc raid is like a dozen guys coming over to steal pigs, and we haven't seen more than a half dozen Trollocs at a time in the Two Rivers for a generation. But D&D doesn't take place during "normal times." It takes place when the Dark Lord is on the march. Sauron has returned, Shaitan is breaking free of his prison, Orcus has tipped his hand, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.

If battles with tens of thousands of people on a side ever happen in the entire history of your world, they should probably happen during the historical period when your game is set. Because otherwise, why the fuck aren't we roleplaying during the obviously far more interesting historical periods when there were armies with tens of thousands of people fighting each other?

Tolkien doesn't set his adventures in the thousand years between the really major wars, characters in the first book are running around during the War of the Ring. Brooks doesn't set his adventures in the thousand years between the really major wars, the demon armies are running amok and have to be taken out by druids and giant armies of men and elves. Jordan doesn't set his books during the thousand years between the major wars, the Dark Lord masses thousands of trollocs and is met with armies of humans of similar size.

Whatever size the raids, battles, and wars are "normally" in a D&D world, it's ridiculous to expect that there won't be armies with thousands or even tens of thousands of soldiers in them marching around during the campaign.

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Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote:Because otherwise, why the fuck aren't we roleplaying during the obviously far more interesting historical periods when there were armies with tens of thousands of people fighting each other?
Because we care about the parts that are most interesting to characters, not to historians.
For the first world war, which is more interesting: the part where a party-sized conspiracy assassinated a world leader and changed the course of history, or the part a few years later where a party-sized group finally took the next trench over, advancing the front by ~ 50 feet?
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Because otherwise, why the fuck aren't we roleplaying during the obviously far more interesting historical periods when there were armies with tens of thousands of people fighting each other?
Because we care about the parts that are most interesting to characters, not to historians.
For the first world war, which is more interesting: the part where a party-sized conspiracy assassinated a world leader and changed the course of history, or the part a few years later where a party-sized group finally took the next trench over, advancing the front by ~ 50 feet?
This is an absolutely ridiculous non-argument. In the actual source material, when armies in the thousands clash, the main characters do in fact have things to do. When tens of thousands clash at the gates of Minas Tirith, the main characters have things to do. When thousands clash at Emmonds Field, the main characters have things to do. When tens of thousands clash at Shae Draw, the main characters have things to do.

If your vision of what D&D can handle can't include things from Lord of the Fucking Ring because Tolkien is writing things that are too epic and large, then your vision of D&D fucking sucks and I want no part of it.

Tolkien is the absolute floor of what D&D is and should be. Dungeons & Dragons is Tolkien plus additional stuff. If you find yourself being unable to handle Tolkien not because the "other stuff" created workarounds for the Tolkienian narrative but that you never put in the rules to handle those elements in the first place, then you have failed as a fucking game designer. It's as bad a failure as if your setting designer had somehow forgotten to put Dragons or Dungeons into the setting.

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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

So what does the game NEED in order to support battles with thousands of combatants? Like, does the whole thing fall apart if you don't have a +1 modifier per every 10 troops or something?

I mean, I find the resolution mechanics in Risk perfectly satisfying, but then I've never played tabletop wargames like Mage Knight or Warhammer.
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Post by Chamomile »

Hiram McDaniels wrote:So what does the game NEED in order to support battles with thousands of combatants? Like, does the whole thing fall apart if you don't have a +1 modifier per every 10 troops or something?
If you have a +1 modifier for every 10 troops, you have a +100 modifier if you're Gandalf leading the reinforcements to the Hornburg (assuming we count the ents separately). That's sort of a problem on a d20 RNG.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Hiram McDaniels wrote:I mean, I find the resolution mechanics in Risk perfectly satisfying,.
Ohhh, A cue to finish that RISK boardgame RAGEVIEW I've had back burnered for months....
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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

Chamomile wrote:
Hiram McDaniels wrote:So what does the game NEED in order to support battles with thousands of combatants? Like, does the whole thing fall apart if you don't have a +1 modifier per every 10 troops or something?
If you have a +1 modifier for every 10 troops, you have a +100 modifier if you're Gandalf leading the reinforcements to the Hornburg (assuming we count the ents separately). That's sort of a problem on a d20 RNG.
That's what I mean. How do you go about designing these rules? What's the resolution mechanic? How much granularity is sufficient? What's the difference between a PC commanding a unit vs. some red shirt with an extra stripe on her sleeve? Could you use a slightly modified version of standard D&D skirmish rules, but with troop modifiers and ascending d100 rolls instead of d20?
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

So, what parameters do we want out of a mass combat system?
  • Must be quick and easy to us
  • Must generate similar results to resolving conflicts without the mass combat system
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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, what parameters do we want out of a mass combat system?
  • Must be quick and easy to us
  • Must generate similar results to resolving conflicts without the mass combat system
But do you want things like terrain mechanics and unit abilities?
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Hiram McDaniels wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, what parameters do we want out of a mass combat system?
  • Must be quick and easy to us
  • Must generate similar results to resolving conflicts without the mass combat system
But do you want things like terrain mechanics and unit abilities?
Yes, but I want those in the regular combat system as well, so they're not on the list of special special "mass combat" criteria.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, what parameters do we want out of a mass combat system?
For Logistics and Dragons? I'll be satisfied with a system if it can do these things:

[*] Stacks reflect the average badassery of the units within it. You can raise or lower the badassery by doing things like throwing out buffs and equipping your troopers with better shit. I know that this seems obvious, but since 4E D&D was a thing I think this rule needs to be explicitly stated.
[*] Armies have to be derivable from demographics or explicit DM instantiation. I'm okay with this being MTP'd (and with a game as diverse as D&D, it will probably have to be) but this does need to be a rule. Again, it might seem obvious, but lol random encounters.
[*] Some kind of morale system which dictates how easy it is to lead armies, their willingness to take certain orders, their effectiveness at fighting, etc. Standard things that affect the morale system would be things like supplies, political situation, training time, distance from homeland, etc.
[*] A meaningful positional system. If your combat engine can't replicate the Napoleon maneuver (in which you micromanage divisions and smash unprepared armies), the battle at Agincourt (in which local terrain and weather provides a crippling advantage), and the battle of the Red Cliffs (in which training and disorganization turns a curbstomp in your favor to an utter rout) then it sucks shit and isn't worth talking about.
[*] It needs to be completely transparent with the 'normal' combat engine. You do want to be able to mobilize frontier villages to uproot the nest of serial killer dragons while also being able to hire a plucky group of level 10 adventurers to do the same.

A lot of other stuff such as leader units who increased the badassery of units that they were attached to or units unlocking special new powers when the size and composition of an army reached certain levels or the standing army size of NPC nations fluctuating with the political situation would be nice to have, but they aren't necessary.
Hiram wrote:That's what I mean. How do you go about designing these rules? What's the resolution mechanic? How much granularity is sufficient? What's the difference between a PC commanding a unit vs. some red shirt with an extra stripe on her sleeve? Could you use a slightly modified version of standard D&D skirmish rules, but with troop modifiers and ascending d100 rolls instead of d20?
In order:
1.) That's an overly broad question, but I wouldn't design the mass combat engine in a vacuum. For D&D, the mass combat engine is supposed to be a supporting actor to D&D's squad engine. While you will have to build your squad engine with the mass combat engine in mind, you build the former first. This also means that you have to build the stuff that makes a squad engine possible first -- which for D&D would be stuff like the advancement system, treasure system, set of challenges, etc. It's quite likely that the mass combat engine will be one of the last things you explicitly put to paper.
2.) If you're wedded to the d20 mechanic, then some kind of exponential converter is an absolute must. Unfortunately for you, the d20 is really, really swingy as we can see with bounded accuracy. It's really easy to draw up a result of a 50-man squad of human peasant militias defeating a 100-man squad of ogres in a fair fight with no special tactical considerations. This is why I recommended dice pools -- however, I admit that the d20 is such a sacred cow that D&D will never switch to dice pools.
3.) My opinion is that you don't need any granularity finer than the engine you'd use for 'regular' combat. For D&D as she's played, this would be around 30 belligerents, max.
4.) I don't know, you tell me. Should it make a difference? Should Jafar be able to lead troops better than Napoleon? How much better is Saruman at leading troops than Jafar? Why is anyone better? These are questions that need to be answered before you can commit to a COA. However, I will point out that many stories use 'it doesn't really make a difference whether Commander Shepherd or Zapp Brannigan is the attached CO unit, as long as their decisions are the same' as a model and your answers have to be more satisfying and sensible than that baseline.
5.) No. Read the previous posts on this page to see why that wouldn't work without a lot of massing and special pleading.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Dean »

FrankTrollman wrote: Tolkien is the absolute floor of what D&D is and should be.

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Bullshit. Tolkien isn't D&D's floor it's its inspiration. If the games a failure for struggling with Tolkiens numbers then its always been a failure because running a game for 9 PC's would be a clusterfuck. Forget the scenery orcs, the games groaning at the Fellowship and your calling "Ten's of thousand or bust". There's been no ttrpg mass combat minigame which hasn't been a total failure, breaking that streak with something that worked at all would be a huge leap. Asking for the sun and the moon ignores basic reason and common sense. If you're the coach of the '76 Buccaneers it is downright unhelpful to declare that every game next season had to be a shutout. The goal would be to figure out how to win one time before movng upward to competence or total supremacy.

Ignoring how hard any mass combat system is the environment of D&D offers additional hurdles that may frankly be insurmountable. I dont know of a single wargame of any kind that allows you to control 10,000 men which also lets you control single characters, and in a world where even low level characters can be launching a massive fireball every 6 seconds that is definitely something you have to deal with. Setting our sights to just the numbers you might see in enormous multi table 40k battle would be a reasonable place to start solving these problems. The existence of high level wizards might also provide a perfect in setting reason why armies are mostly the province of mid levels characters fighting with mid sized armies.
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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Hiram wrote:That's what I mean. How do you go about designing these rules? What's the resolution mechanic? How much granularity is sufficient? What's the difference between a PC commanding a unit vs. some red shirt with an extra stripe on her sleeve? Could you use a slightly modified version of standard D&D skirmish rules, but with troop modifiers and ascending d100 rolls instead of d20?
In order:
1.) That's an overly broad question, but I wouldn't design the mass combat engine in a vacuum. For D&D, the mass combat engine is supposed to be a supporting actor to D&D's squad engine. While you will have to build your squad engine with the mass combat engine in mind, you build the former first. This also means that you have to build the stuff that makes a squad engine possible first -- which for D&D would be stuff like the advancement system, treasure system, set of challenges, etc. It's quite likely that the mass combat engine will be one of the last things you explicitly put to paper.
2.) If you're wedded to the d20 mechanic, then some kind of exponential converter is an absolute must. Unfortunately for you, the d20 is really, really swingy as we can see with bounded accuracy. It's really easy to draw up a result of a 50-man squad of human peasant militias defeating a 100-man squad of ogres in a fair fight with no special tactical considerations. This is why I recommended dice pools -- however, I admit that the d20 is such a sacred cow that D&D will never switch to dice pools.
3.) My opinion is that you don't need any granularity finer than the engine you'd use for 'regular' combat. For D&D as she's played, this would be around 30 belligerents, max.
4.) I don't know, you tell me. Should it make a difference? Should Jafar be able to lead troops better than Napoleon? How much better is Saruman at leading troops than Jafar? Why is anyone better? These are questions that need to be answered before you can commit to a COA. However, I will point out that many stories use 'it doesn't really make a difference whether Commander Shepherd or Zapp Brannigan is the attached CO unit, as long as their decisions are the same' as a model and your answers have to be more satisfying and sensible than that baseline.
5.) No. Read the previous posts on this page to see why that wouldn't work without a lot of massing and special pleading.
d100 is too swingy to produce consistently reasonable outputs. Got it. Since you mentioned transparency between mass combat and squad level combat, I was pondering this from the paradigm roll+modifiers vs. defense; roll damage wherein most advantages are expressed as bonuses or penalties to the opposition rolls, since my assumption was that this gets bolted on to 3E's chassis.

For that matter, how DO you express advantages of superior numbers, morale, special units, or buffs in the mass combat game if not in bonuses? Increased dice pool?

Also, when you mention dice pools, do you mean success counting pools ala WOD/Exalted, or aggregate pools like WEG Star Wars and Risk?

If you wanted to use fixed HP for unit stacks AND be able to have "the dragon is wounded" in the same system, couldn't you just express damages in percentages?

For example: each unit has a fixed total of 100 HP; and damage is rolled on a d100, or something smaller if you wanted to guarantee that different units spend a few rounds duking it out. Units with superior weapons gain a +10% bonus to damage rolls, while superior armor let's you soak 10%.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If you're wedded to the d20 mechanic, then some kind of exponential converter is an absolute must. Unfortunately for you, the d20 is really, really swingy as we can see with bounded accuracy. It's really easy to draw up a result of a 50-man squad of human peasant militias defeating a 100-man squad of ogres in a fair fight with no special tactical considerations. This is why I recommended dice pools -- however, I admit that the d20 is such a sacred cow that D&D will never switch to dice pools.
Mass combat using d20 pools while individual combat uses single d20s might actually be a reasonable sell.

After all, if you were playing things out as individuals, you would effectively be rolling d20 pools, just with a bunch more fiddling and accounting and details.

EDIT: Wait, fuck, variable TNs, variable number of dice.
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Post by ishy »

While making thousand dice rolls is unfeasible if done by hand, would mass combat that required computer assistance be okay?
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Post by TarkisFlux »

It honestly doesn't matter if it's d6, d20, or d1000. Any flat RNG is going to be more swingy than you probably want if you have a built in exponential converter. Why should you have 20 guys voltron up into a unit to fight the dragon if they can just roll their individual attacks and lean on iterative probability to succeed even harder? Dice pools work well to avoid those problems, but you can really do it with any sufficiently curved RNG. 3d6 vs. TN isn't a terrible fit and may slot better into existing d20 expectations.
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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

ishy wrote:While making thousand dice rolls is unfeasible if done by hand, would mass combat that required computer assistance be okay?
I think that speed and simplicity were among the stated goals. If I pick up a new game, I don't want to have to write macros in order to run a portion of it.
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Post by FatR »

FrankTrollman wrote: You know what? You're wrong. Huge force numbers is genre appropriate.
You have a point that needs addressing here.

Yeah, fantasy tends to jack up the number of mook forces. Yeah, fantasy very often features mass warfare in general.

But does this warrant inclusion of mass combat as a separate minigame, considering that a good system should not be bloated with things that aren't really needed?

There are two problems in the way of this.

First, in most fantasy books PCs, heroes, special snowflakes, etc, serve as a force multiplier in warfare between armies. While there sometimes are things that can hard counter an army of mooks, they are plot devices more often than not. Smaug can reduce your footmen to charred corpses by hundreds per combat round and oh yeah, you need a special weapon and special knowledge to exploit his sole weak spot in both the book and the film version. But he is a walking natural cataclysm, not an active force in world politics. In DnD PCs after certain levels are such hard counters. It is not fun to spend hours building your kingdom's army to realise that it can contribute jack and shit in teleportmobile warfare. The alternative is to upgrade the whole setting radically as the story progresses (like Wheel of Time does), so PCs switch to griffon charger cavalry and armies of angels and stuff. But not every GM wants to change ages of his world after every campaign that gets to level 10. A single party of superheroes may not fundamentally change the way the world works, a sudden revolution in warfare certainly will.

Second, how often warfare plays such a big role in fantasy plots, that both commanders' tactical skills and force composition matter, so we can have a real minwargame? Romance of the Three Kingdoms was mentioned above - in that book only the former is truly relevant, and you totally can wreck an army of 100 000 men with 800 if you're that much better than your counterpart. In many fantasy books only the latter is relevant - most commonly the balance of forces is simply set to provide a countdown to defeat of PCs' side, so that there is a sense of urgency in their quest, while tactical decisions contribute little to the outcome and most likely much less than individual heroics on the battlefield.

In the light of this, I don't see a mass combat system as something necessary. A mook squad system and an addendum to a realm management system, specifying realms' overall military strength and providing guidelines on how much adventuring stuff must adventurers do to impact such strength, should be quite sufficient.
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

The first step might be figuring out just how PCs interact with the mass combat system. Are they Mary Tzu? Guts? Lu Bu? Or do they apply their effects-based powers in creative ways, like the druid burying the enemy army in a landslide? If Guts simply walks into Mordor, what kind of decision tree is he looking at in this kind of melee? Spamming the same AoE move while the guys on ring disposal duty do all the actual roleplaying? Hopefully something more engaging is planned.
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Post by Username17 »

FatR wrote:Second, how often warfare plays such a big role in fantasy plots, that both commanders' tactical skills and force composition matter, so we can have a real minwargame?
Well... we have Tolkien, Jordan, Brooks, Martin, and so on. Actually fuck it. Can you name a high fantasy series that doesn't call time to do a massive set piece battle where the force composition and tactical skills of the heroic team matter? Seriously, I'm coming up empty. Not in providing counter examples to your claim, but in finding a single example supporting your claim.

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Post by ACOS »

FrankTrollman wrote:
FatR wrote:Second, how often warfare plays such a big role in fantasy plots, that both commanders' tactical skills and force composition matter, so we can have a real minwargame?
Well... we have Tolkien, Jordan, Brooks, Martin, and so on. Actually fuck it. Can you name a high fantasy series that doesn't call time to do a massive set piece battle where the force composition and tactical skills of the heroic team matter? Seriously, I'm coming up empty. Not in providing counter examples to your claim, but in finding a single example supporting your claim.

-Username17
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here; but I'll take a stab at it, looking at a couple of your examples:
LotR is small men doing big things; as such, a wargaming minigame is wholly appropriate. You probably can't do any of those big battles without it.
tWoT, on the other hand, is seriously medieval-tech Star Wars - end of story. That being said, any and all of the major battles involve a fist-full of channelers laying massive waste to the area - case in point: Dumai's Wells. In which case, it would be more appropriate for your system to focus on how small mega-units interact with large swaths of chaff. In the battle scenes that don't happen to involve nuclear warfare, the focus is still on small-unit warfare within a larger narrative scene - something that Heroes of Battle modeled well enough.
The 2 above examples are very different things; and, as such, I think it misguided to lump all that together and say that they can even pretend to operate on the same minigame.
Last edited by ACOS on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Username17
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Post by Username17 »

ACOS wrote:That being said, any and all of the major battles involve a fist-full of channelers laying massive waste to the area - case in point: Dumai's Wells.
Giving an example of a "mass" battle where unit composition and tactics didn't matter because some magical trump card got played is just as irrelevant as giving an example of people sitting around talking and not having a mass battle at all. There are of course lots of places in every high fantasy series where there wasn't a mass battle where the force composition and tactics of team hero mattered, but that doesn't mean shit. The point is to find a book series where every place in the book series fails to include a mass battle where the force composition and tactics of team hero matter. And tWoT fails that because Emmond's Field is a thing that happened. Also some other stuff, but that's not important because if a mass battle where the force composition and tactics of team hero matters is a thing that happens even once then the book series fails to be an example of a book series that you could satisfactorily handle without having access to some kind of mass battle shenanigans.

-Username17
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