Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:17 am

You'd need levels of Alchemist though, so you can throw bombs at everything.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:32 am

So, I'm aware that I'm gonna speak some blasphemy here, but can a blaster wizard or arcanist be made decent-to-good? When I say blaster, I mean able to throw out some nuking direct damage spells, but since it's wizard and/or arcanist, they can still pull out the utility and awesomeness spells as well. I know there's several feats that let you pump caster level (and therefore damage) past what your character level is, and Dazing Spell and Intensify Spell will help. Also, alchemical power components to add minor effects to spells like some additional burning to fire spells, or acidic grease, etc.

Is there more that can make blasting in pathfinder only work decently, or do I pretty much have it down?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:35 am

There's gotta be an archetype or something.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:41 am

Lago, where the fuck did I say the Cleric was a reduced functionality wizard? Please, point it out to me.

The man was asking why to use a Wizard/Arcanist, I gave him an answer. The Wizard has a good chunk of the old standbys as well as shit like Blood Money and the pit spells at low level. Most of the Divination school is theirs to claim too. The Arcanist has the archetype that makes summons a standard. The wizard/sorcerer list is fucking massive and it's chock full of utilities and Save or Suck/Save or Dies. They also get more enchantments, given the fucking Enchantment school is theirs.

Archmage: there's always one-dropping Crossblood Orc/Fire bloodline Sorcerer for some extra damage. Spellslinger normally sucks, but you can get your gun's enhancement bonus to damage on blasts.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:43 am

Mask De H wrote:Lago, where the fuck did I say the Cleric was a reduced functionality wizard? Please, point it out to me.

You didn't; I misread your post. Sorry about that.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:46 am

I am also not clear on why you think my question about why you want to trade cleric class features for wizard spells constitutes thinking cleric casting is exactly like wizard casting but worse.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:59 am

name_here wrote:I am also not clear on why you think my question about why you want to trade cleric class features for wizard spells constitutes thinking cleric casting is exactly like wizard casting but worse.

Because that's usually how things like that work. For example, all of the monk bonus feats don't really add up to the various charms and compulsions a bard can cast -- but if someone printed an archetype that let monks trade out their FoB and bonus feats for level-appropriate spell-likes, it'd immediately raise the question as to why you're playing a monk instead of a bard even if the charm-monk is stronger than the plain-monk.

The caster-cleric operates under a different calculus than most swaps. The kind of trades should be viewed in terms of expected utility because it's not an issue of 'why don't you just play a wizard instead'? I apologize if I was putting words in your mouth, but I've gotten that question pretty often in meatspace.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:25 am

So Lago, what are the strengths of the caster cleric then, what do they do better than the wizard or arcanist? I've seen previous posts of yours, but the caster focused ones seemed mostly enchantment effects like (Murderous) Command and minionmancy.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:47 am

Blaster wizards can pump out some solid damage. The building blocks:

Traits
Metamagic Master (OGL version of Wayang Spellhunter) & Magical Lineage - Both reduce the total metamagic cost of metamagic on one spell chosen at chargen by 1.

Spell School
Evocation (Admixture subschool) - Lets you swap your energy types on spells a ton of times per day.

Your Spell of Choice
Fireball - Yeah. Normally underwhelming. But you can convert it into some solid damage with a good combination of feats, and some good save or suck with Dazing Spell. Plus it's 3rd level, which is the sweet spot where it's still a legal choice for Metamagic Master, decently powerful, and has lots of room for metamagic.

Important Feats
Spell Focus (Evocation) - A prerequisite. The +1 DC is minor but doesn't hurt.
Spell Specialization - +2 CL with one spell. Gives you most of your damage output at low levels (3d6+1 shocking grasps or 3d4+1 burning hands). Granted, your blasting is going to be supremely lame until 5th level due to a combination of underwhelming damage and bad range, so you might just want to use the evocation spell you have to prepare for one until then and the rest of 'em on good low level staples like color spray, sleep, and grease.
Mage's Tattoo (Evocation) - +1 CL with one school of magic. Optional, but kinda nice to have.
Empower Spell - +50% damage output on your fireball for 2 spell levels, which for you is free.

Higher Level Feats
Intensify Spell - Keeps your fireballs scaling when your CL beats the damage dice cap.
Spell Penetration - If you're having trouble with SR- though you're probably way better off just getting a lesser piercing spell rod.
Heighten Spell - As a prerequisite for...
Preferred Spell - Lets you sacrifice a slot or prepared spell to cast your fireball with whatever metamagic you like, and you don't eat an increased casting time like spontaneous casters. Just prepare all the utility, control, buffing, whatever spells you want, or just leave slots open for when you've got time to prep. You never have to prepare fireball again. "Metamagic you like" includes heightening your fireball as a fuck you to people using globe of invulnerability if you don't feel like dispelling it or letting the BSF kill them.
Dazing Spell - Because of course. Daze people for 3 rounds on a failed reflex save.
Spell Perfection - Lets you add any one metamagic feat to your perfected spell, and doubles the impact of feats on the spell (like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Mage's Tattoo). I don't have to explain why this is really good.

Some benchmarks:

5th Level
Intelligence: Int 22 (+1 stat bump, +2 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus)
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 9/day (+2 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: empowered fireball (3rd level slot); deals 8d6*1.5+2 (average 44) DC 20 Reflex, +10 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day (when fully invested in blasting): 3, or 4 with Bonded Oject

8th Level
Intelligence: Int 24 (+2 stat bump, +3 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus), Intensify Spell
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 10/day (+4 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: empowered fireball (3rd level slot); deals 10d6*1.5+4 (average 56) DC 21 Reflex, +13 vs SR
intensified empowered fireball (4th level slot); deals 11d6*1.5+4 (average 61.75) DC 21 Reflex, +13 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day: 9 (5 empowered fireballs, 4 intensified empowered fireballs), or 10 with Bonded Object

11th Level
Intelligence: Int 30 (+2 stat bump, +5 Inherent via planar binding or candle of invocation, +4 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus), Intensify Spell, Spell Penetration, Dazing Spell (bonus), Greater Spell Focus
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 13/day (+5 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: intensified empowered fireball (4th level slot); deals 14d6*1.5+5 (average 78.5) DC 25 Reflex, +18 vs SR
intensified dazing fireball (5th level slot); deals 14d6+5 (average 54) DC 25 Reflex vs 3 rounds of dazing, +18 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day: 9 (5 intensified empowered fireballs, 4 intensified dazing fireballs), or 10 with Bonded Object
Additionally, 6 3rd level slots available for minor blasts (54 average damage) and 5 5th level slots if there's nothing better to do with them

15th Level
Involves a lot of stuff to present, and it's getting late and I'm pretty tired. You have decent options due to Spell Perfection, and since your spells are still 3rd level lesser rods (such as Maximize) are on the table for amplifying them still. Single target numbers aren't that impressive (though still respectable), but area damage stays effective. Your strongest fireball (with a lesser maximize rod) looks like this:
Intensified empowered maximized quickened fireball (4th level slot); deals 90+(15d6*.5)+7 (average 123.25 damage) DC 28, +27 vs SR [+15 base, +4 Specialization, +2 Mage's Tattoo, +4 Spell Penetration & Greater, +2 Elf] as a swift action.
You can cast it without Quicken without using any rod charges, putting your average output when nova-ing at 246.5 before save reductions, with a very healthy save DC and lots of ammunition. Doesn't scale up a whole lot after this, but you do get more ammo. Without using any rod charges whatsoever, you can deal a respectable 209 damage reliably.

Being a blast wizard can be pretty fun. It's not fantastic (hp damage yo), but just hurling energy-type-death at people is entertaining.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:10 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
[*]Warpriest: Probably the most useful of the 2/3rds classes. The archetypes have some really good class features and they probably deal the most melee damage out of any class that doesn't have a pet or summons -- though they can get those, too. If you studiously min-max, get a secret DM pity item, and are okay with not really doing anything but mega-damage you can limp towards the level 20 finish line. This is done by picking up a blessing that hands out Summon Monster X and finding a way to quicken that shit while praying for 15-minute workdays.
[/list]

Your mandatory level 10 upgrade feat does just that, no problems or strings attached.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:09 am

How does one max out the mojo of a warpriest, anyhow?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:21 am

Axebird wrote:You have decent options due to Spell Perfection, and since your spells are still 3rd level lesser rods (such as Maximize) are on the table for amplifying them still. Single target numbers aren't that impressive (though still respectable), but area damage stays effective. Your strongest fireball (with a lesser maximize rod) looks like this:
Intensified empowered maximized quickened fireball (4th level slot);

That is not how metamagic rods work in pathfinder.

[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r9w wrote:phb faq[/url]]The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:25 pm

If you have Spell Perfection, and like spamming a particular spell, Echoing Spell lets you cast your spell perfection spell an additional time on the same day for free (though the 1st casting would already be using the Echoing Spell metamagic, so it would only be a normal spell unless you use a higher slot). As far as I can tell, you can use metamagic on the second casting just fine so you could even cast an echoed spell as a standard action, and then quicken it to cast it again in the same round without burning an additional spell slot.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:28 pm

Prior to Dazing Spell, Blockbuster Wizards and Sorcerers did 100 damage or so a round. Afterwards, they have the ability to dump mid 20s DC three round daze spells in a 20 foot radius spread, which absolutely !@#$ing insane.

Daze doesn't hit AC the way Stunned does, but almost nothing is immune to Dazing and it is hard to get Daze immunity. Being "stunned" for spell level rounds is CRAZY. It should let any halfway competent group shred just about any foe in a round or 2, even if it is dealing HP damage.

Dazing Spell is an absolutely crazy ass metamagic feat and with all the trait, class, archetype and feat support to lower metamagic costs it gets even crazier when applied to fireballs and the like.

One way to exploit it is to find a way to add 1 force damage to spells (i believe a trait does it) so technically even non-damaging spells "damage" your foes, regardless of resistances, almost every time, and daze them for 2 to 6 rounds or so.

The feat is nuts. It is like, Exhibit A in the case of Magic is Stronger in Pathfinder.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:14 am

So, what are the strengths of the Cleric list, and the Druid list?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:42 am

Yeah, Dazing Spell is so over the top that it's hard to put into words. I mean, just used "normally" it means that at 9th level you get to force an opponent to make a save versus losing 2 rounds every round for the next nine rounds. Which is just game over for a single 5th level spell slot. But of course, you can take traits that reduce the metamagic cost and stack. So you could very plausibly just throw around fireballs that daze for three fucking rounds (also known as: the entire combat) at character level 7. And that's without getting into weird equipment or class packages.

Pathfinder is caster edition. And anyone who says that Pathfinder casters aren't massively improved over their 3.5 counterparts simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:48 pm

Is there any way to get around the true seeing bullshit for illusionist wizards? There are quite a number of ways to get that effect -- not to mention monsters who just plain have it for free. True seeing isn't frequent enough to render illusion specialization useless, but it is still extremely annoying how it can just asymmetrically and completely shut down most of the spell list.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:58 pm

Pattern and Shadow illusions, or non-visual ones. True Seeing lets you automatically disbelieve any illusion you see. So pick illusions where you don't care if they disbelieve it, or illusions where there's no visual component.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:45 pm

If you even could, you would just have the Superior Invisibility problem all the time but worse. If True Seeing doesn't beat illusions, then illusions beat fuck all everything. You would have to be the kind of unimaginative dumbass who thinks fireball is interesting to not be able to figure out some way to make illusions fuck literally everyone in the ass.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:07 pm

How would one make a good illusionist in pathfinder without being a gnome? Particularly, would it be better to go for a wizard or an arcanist, why does the Shadow Gambit feat on the d20pfsrd seem so lackluster, and are there any other special feats of note for an illusionist?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:33 am

Kaelik wrote:If you even could, you would just have the Superior Invisibility problem all the time but worse. If True Seeing doesn't beat illusions, then illusions beat fuck all everything. You would have to be the kind of unimaginative dumbass who thinks fireball is interesting to not be able to figure out some way to make illusions fuck literally everyone in the ass.

"Since when were you under the impression that I had cast a second spell this month?"

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:01 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Kaelik wrote:If you even could, you would just have the Superior Invisibility problem all the time but worse. If True Seeing doesn't beat illusions, then illusions beat fuck all everything. You would have to be the kind of unimaginative dumbass who thinks fireball is interesting to not be able to figure out some way to make illusions fuck literally everyone in the ass.
"Since when were you under the impression that I had cast a second spell this month?"

That sentence sense make pineapple.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:17 am

There, that clears it all up.

(Radiant was trying to use an Aizen meme, but his made about as much sense as the one I found)

[edit:]
-nevermind or rather, Aizen meme is appropriate when discussing someone using illusions to be a grand-master villain, but that sentence... ugh, that sentence.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:20 am

Kaelik wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Kaelik wrote:If you even could, you would just have the Superior Invisibility problem all the time but worse. If True Seeing doesn't beat illusions, then illusions beat fuck all everything. You would have to be the kind of unimaginative dumbass who thinks fireball is interesting to not be able to figure out some way to make illusions fuck literally everyone in the ass.
"Since when were you under the impression that I had cast a second spell this month?"
That sentence sense make pineapple.

Well, these spells have "duration: Concentration", so you just need to play a race that doesn't need to sleep, or do anything that would break concentration, and...

Wait, can you move the cubes? I think the answer is "no", but...

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:38 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Wait, can you move the cubes? I think the answer is "no", but...

That is one of those who the fuck knows, Illusion rules are fucking useless things.

I think if you dig hard into RAW the answer is yes, but I don't care enough to look.