Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Lago PARANOIA]

Bane + Judgment. You can really back that ass up with Litany of Righteousness, too, but a lot of DMs flip their lids over that so W/E. You can also abuse teamwork shenanigans for a boatload of extra attacks. And I'm sure that there's some stupid Inquisitor archetype that boosts the damage even further.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Sacred Huntsman sacrifices Judgement for Hunter's animal companion shenanigans, then you can pick animal domain to pretty much double your animal companion progression (since sacred huntsman's pet is lifted from hunter, and hunter's says that pet progression sources stack with it), is it worthwhile? Like, at level 8 or so with Boon Companion you would have a level 20 pet, and if you could extrapolate it further you could be running around with a supermount.

[Archmage Joda]

On the topic of Alchemist, what tends to be the best way to approach it for most games/situations? A bomb chucker that novas for force damage or battlefield control bombs, or the Jekyll/Hyde approach of buffing up with extracts/mutagens and wrecking in melee?

[Koumei]

Archmage: probably novabomber. You can then just save all your notspells for defensive stuff and "utility", without spending a single one on attacking people.

Clearly the best name for it would be Potent Potables.

But nobody ever chooses that. Besides, Potent suggests it's be Empowered, Extended or Maximised, rather than (effectively) Quickened. You'd then have to include "Point to Your Own Head", "Current US Presidents", "An Album Cover" and "Automatic Points".

[Mask_De_H]

Archmage: there are two ways to do it, like there were two ways to play a Rogue: the Flasked Avenger and the Blender. The Flasked Avenger gets Force Bombs, Fast Bombs, Vestigial Arm + Multiattack and blows people up. The Blender goes Beastmorph Vivisectionist and Mutagens up for a claw/claw/bite (later plus tentacle) routine that you can add Sneak Attack damage to. At 10th you get Pounce, which is nice.

Either way, you're using your spells for weird utility and buffing.

[TiaC]

Nice Alchemist trick: Poisoner's Gloves + Skinsend or Polypurpose Panacea. No-save, just lose touch attack.

[Insomniac]

Sacred Huntsman sacrifices Judgement for Hunter's animal companion shenanigans, then you can pick animal domain to pretty much double your animal companion progression (since sacred huntsman's pet is lifted from hunter, and hunter's says that pet progression sources stack with it), is it worthwhile? Like, at level 8 or so with Boon Companion you would have a level 20 pet, and if you could extrapolate it further you could be running around with a supermount.

A 16 HD Big Cat, Size Large, with 30 Strength, 22 Dexterity, Improved Invasion, 8 additional feats, something in the neighborhood of 30 AC before barding, buffing and magical equipment and the like seems pretty bonkers at level 8. There is another feat that would give you an additional one, also at Level 20.

[erik]

But nobody ever chooses that. Besides, Potent suggests it's be Empowered, Extended or Maximised, rather than (effectively) Quickened. You'd then have to include "Point to Your Own Head", "Current US Presidents", "An Album Cover" and "Automatic Points".

Goddammit, I wanted to get some sleep tonight...


Contestant
"I'll take Potent Potables for 200.”

The Contestant uses their mastery of trivia in order to conjure magical effects. Well-studied individuals, Contestants will bend reality to their will using knowledge and intellect.

Playing a Contestant: Contestants are not front line fighters. They are controllers of a battle field, imposing their will upon the landscape and their opponents.

A level or two of Contestant really doesn't go with anything.

Alignment: Every alignment has its share of Contestants, however most Contestants are of Lawful alignment.

Races: Every humanoid race has nerds, but actual Contestants are rarer in societies that value physical achievements, and more common among societies that value the pursuit of knowledge. So while there are many Contestants among the Elves and Gnomes, a Contestant is rarely seen among the ranks of the Orcs and Goblins.

Starting Gold: 4d6x10 gp (140 gold)

Starting Age: As Wizard.

Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: The Contestant's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Search (Int) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Poor (1/2), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Spellcasting, Trivial Knowedge
2 Quick on the Buzzer
3 Potent Potables
4 Hodge Podge
5 Daily Double
6 Potpourri
7 Double Jeopardy
8 4-Letter Words
9 US Presidents
10 Final Jeopardy

...

[Koumei]

Awesome. But I would suggest at least one class feature actually be one of the Sean Connery specials: An Album Cover, S Words, Therapists, Japan-US Relations, Famous Horsemen, Catch These Men, The Pen Is Mightier.

[Archmage Joda]

I'm monkeying with the Arcanist class. I find myself rather liking the Occultist archetype for a conjurer sort, due to standard action summons and plane shift as a 5th level spell. How good would Summon Neutral Monster feat be, and what would good exploits to take be besides potent magic, quick study, and dimensional slide?

[Mask_De_H]

For exploits: Metamixing, Familiar, the bonus feats if you can't think of anything else. Summon Neutral Monster gives you some funky summon options and a neat template, especially if you're fighting most outsiders of note.

[DSMatticus]

I am actually curious how the fuck a flasked avenger is supposed to contribute unless you go five minute eighteen second workday. They get (class level + int mod) bombs each day, and just to throw as many d6's as a fireball you need to be throwing two per round. Of course, fireball fucking sucks, and you'll actually be throwing 4+ each round. You seriously last 3-4 rounds of combat and then you're done. And until level 8 (when you can take fast bombs), you can't even fucking do that. You're throwing one bomb a round, and your primary shtick is straight up less valuable to the party than a wand of fireball and a scrub who can use it. Meanwhile for the beastmorpher, it takes an hour to brew a mutagen which lasts ten minutes per level, which means you need multiple hour long breaks each day just to do the thing you are built to do. God forbid you be allowed to be mediocre the entire day; no, you're going to have to wait for that mediocrity to refresh.

And how many additional full casters does Pathfinder have? Oracle, witch, arcanist, shaman? Didn't 3.5 have almost twice that many, including shit that was actually awesome and interesting like the beguiler and dread necromancer?

Every time I look at Pathfinder it just pisses me off. Every fucking time. Fullcasters are still the only people who matter, but instead of making splats full of interesting fullcasters they keep churning out shitty halfcasters who get "interesting abilities" 4-6 levels later than they needed them and with usage limits so pointlessly cumbersome they need the five minute workday even more than the wizard (who is already fucking better than them in every way and benefits more from the five minute workday than they do).

[hogarth]

I am actually curious how the fuck a flasked avenger is supposed to contribute unless you go five minute eighteen second workday. They get (class level + int mod) bombs each day, and just to throw as many d6's as a fireball you need to be throwing two per round.

The advantage is that you can get normal weapon-type bonuses to your bombs (e.g. Int bonus to damage, PBS, bard song, etc.).

And until level 8 (when you can take fast bombs), you can't even fucking do that. You're throwing one bomb a round, and your primary shtick is straight up less valuable to the party than a wand of fireball and a scrub who can use it.

Before level 8, my usual attack was Stink Bomb which does damage and nausea in a 10' x 10' square (and you can pick it up at level 3, before the wizard gets access to Stinking Cloud, which is nice). You're right that you can blow through your bombs pretty quickly if you go all out with Fast Bombs, of course. I picked the Preservationist archetype so that I can throw down some summoned monsters to contribute as well.

Link to character sheet, if you're interested.

[Mask_De_H]

For the Beastmorpher, you take the discovery that allows you mutagens to keep and brew them all during downtime. For the Flasked Avenger, you, I don't fucking know, throw flasks until you find something that needs to die and then you bomb it. I will grant you that this isn't the best life choice until you have multiple limbs and even then it's not as good as just blendering something with Sneak Attack damage.

And the Beguiler and Dread Necro were not only two of the only new full casters in 3.5, they were the only two that mattered because fuck the Wu Jen and Shugenja. The Wu Jen had one useful spell (Giant Size or whatever) and the Shugenja didn't even have that. The new PF full casters are actually useful to varying degrees.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Every time I look at Pathfinder it just pisses me off. Every fucking time. Fullcasters are still the only people who matter, but instead of making splats full of interesting fullcasters they keep churning out shitty halfcasters who get "interesting abilities" 4-6 levels later than they needed them and with usage limits so pointlessly cumbersome they need the five minute workday even more than the wizard (who is already fucking better than them in every way and benefits more from the five minute workday than they do).

DSMatticus, you know damn well that Pathfinder can never, ever do that. If the game went full-spellcaster that would be admitting that LWQW was here to stay -- which in turn would completely kill Pathfinder's legitimacy over 3.5E D&D.

The best they can hope for is to slowly cajole their fanbase into getting used to the idea of playing characters that aren't Dumbass Melee Fighters/Vanilla Action Heroes so that when Pathfinder 2.0 comes out everyone is a spellcaster of some sort. And then when Pathfinder 2.5E/3E comes out they can phase out reduced functionality casters altogether.

[Insomniac]

Pathfinder's legitimizing claim is that Martial/Non-Magic and full casters are equivalent. Then they rolled prestige class quality abilities into Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard and introduced 3 full casting classes (Arcanist, Oracle and Witch) that are like Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards with prestige class level abilities rolled into them.

I agree with the consensus on the board that Pathfinder widened the disparity considerably.

There is a company kickstarting a videogame where all the characters are Full Casters. They didn't even TRY to pretend that Fighter/Wizard parity was something doable in Casterfinder. Good call.

[Ice9]

PF casters are weaker than 3.5 ones, at least in a game with the majority of the books used. No infinite everything madness, no IotSFV with layers on layers of contingencies, not even Abrupt Jaunt.

It's just that PF non-casters are even more weakened in comparison.

Also that PF casters have a higher floor, so it's easier for their superiority to show up when people aren't particularly trying for it.

[Username17]

PF casters are weaker than 3.5 ones, at least in a game with the majority of the books used. No infinite everything madness, no IotSFV with layers on layers of contingencies, not even Abrupt Jaunt.

It's just that PF non-casters are even more weakened in comparison.

Also that PF casters have a higher floor, so it's easier for their superiority to show up when people aren't particularly trying for it.

This is bullshit. Some individual power spells have been nerfed. But you know what? Some of them haven't been. You can still pull off the shadow over the sun at 15th level, if you want to and your DM doesn't spot nerf it. Of course, your DM is going to spot nerf it. I mean, obviously they aren't just going to stand there with a slack jaw while your armies of shadows slaughter helpless orphans to make even greater armies of pure darkness that are immune to physical weapons.

Which is the basic problem with the whole thing. Actual infinite loops are bad design and they are bad for the game, but they really don't cause much fuss when they exist, because it's not a computer game. There's a DM, and after some headache inducing disruption, a world destroying power combo can in fact be nipped in the bud. What's actually important is not what happens if you turn the cheese sauce up to eleven, it's what happens if you play "fair."

And while Pathfinder nerfed a bunch of spells that fucking kill people, they also created a bunch more to replace them. Wizards just plain get more spells per day and a bunch of backup powers and they are just fucking better than Wizards in 3.5.

-Username17

[Aryxbez]

Wizards just plain get more spells per day and a bunch of backup powers and they are just fucking better than Wizards in 3.5.

Oh damn, I know they made the divide worse, but I didn't actually realize the spellcasters are actually Better versions of their previous selves in 3.5 D&D!? Though in PF fashion, it seems to come with increased complexity to compensate yes? Having to juggle piddly junk like it was 4th edition, but the optimization being more meaningful.

Speaking of power balance, If one were to "play PF" (by that, I mean Frank Solution of using alt-classes & playin in crappy rules environment), with either the [Tome] Jester, Mechanus Warrior, or Elemental Siphon. How simple of endeavor would it be to argue their "balance", given PF seems to be in a sort of "Fighter-level" balance metric (good caster spell selection aside)?

[Lago PARANOIA]

All this build talk is making me want to play a Cleric because once again they are the master class. What are some neat tricks a Wizard can do besides craft constructs?

Some of the wizard arcane discoveries are really, really good. Resilient Illusion and Infectious Charms are by themselves strong enough to put the enchantment and illusion schools back into the game despite the game increasingly throwing out 'lol no' effects at this point. The Academy Graduate local feat lets you, among other things, use the entire Summon Monster line as a standard action. They can also straight-up take the Exploiter Wizard archetype and can use many of the better exploits. Finally, despite all of the cross-list plundering that Pathfinder has enabled there are still a few very good wizard spells that clerics have a hard time snatching without significant opportunity costs -- like haste.

Ecclesitheurge clerics are generally better than straight wizards, but not automatically better. A min-maxed wizard in the right campaign can perform better in many instances.

[Whipstitch]

Though in PF fashion, it seems to come with increased complexity to compensate yes? Having to juggle piddly junk like it was 4th edition, but the optimization being more meaningful.

It's not all that comparable--the extra bullshit to choose between is mostly build complexity rather than an in-game pain in the ass such as shuffling aura templates and tokens around. You can pretty easily slouch your way to a character that is just generically stronger than the 3.x equivalent.

For example, as a level 1 Human Wizard you can reasonably expect to enter play with 3 more hitpoints, 2 more Intelligence, and an extra casting of your highest spell per day via a bonded item. Oh, and if you have opposition schools (Hint: You will) you can still cast from them, it just takes twice the slots, which often isn't that big of a deal with utility crap like lower level divinations.

[Ice9]

And while Pathfinder nerfed a bunch of spells that fucking kill people, they also created a bunch more to replace them. Wizards just plain get more spells per day and a bunch of backup powers and they are just fucking better than Wizards in 3.5.

-Username17

At low-moderate optimization levels, yes. And sure, infinite loops aren't actually going to fly (although some boards do seem to love them). But toward the higher (but still playable) end of optimization, D&D 3.5 is still ahead.

There's nothing in PF that can even get close to Mailman-level offense. Or IotSFV + Craft Contingent defense. Or Incantrix buffing. Or higher-end Wildshape/Polymorph insanity. Or a bunch of other stuff that might be too much for a typical campaign, but still non-infinite and playable.

Or seriously, Abrupt Fucking Jaunt. Available from 1st level on. Better than any school ability in PF.

Edit Actually, there's a lot of things that apply, even in more typical game. Despite their better class chassis, PF Wizards are a lot less durable:
* Concentration - casting defensively is harder, casting in a grapple is much harder.
* Shock and Awe, Nerveskitter, Elven Hummingbird BS, eventually Celerity. In 3.5, Wizards go first. Yeah, PF diviner gets a boost too - but much more slowly.
* Heart of X - a series of spells that gave significant buffs, including Freedom of Movement on demand.
* Faerie Mysteries Initiate - Bang an Elf, Int to HP.
* Exceptions to rules. How about a teleportation spell that isn't [Teleportation]? Got it. Cast in an AMF? Possible. Ignore SR? It can happen.

Not saying that these were all good things, but they do add up to casters that are much harder to shut down.

[Lago PARANOIA]

There's nothing in PF that can even get close to Mailman-level offense. Or IotSFV + Craft Contingent defense. Or Incantrix buffing. Or higher-end Wildshape/Polymorph insanity.

Except for wildshaping (and only the stuff in the core class; the elemental wildshape trick introduced in MotW was right out) that shit rarely showed up in actual 3.5E D&D games I've played. Generally, the most powerful thing that I've been able to use in games that allowed expansion material was Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell. And even then I have a log of someone calling me a game-destroying fucking munchkin for even bringing it up.

The buffs Pathfinder gives simultaneously require more dumpster diving and are more insidious. The Veiled Illusionist hands out stupid amounts of power for a blaster cleric and is in fact better than 95% of 3.5E cleric PrCs, even allowing for grossly overpowered ones like the Radiant Servant of Pelor -- but I never raised any red flags by proposing that I play one. The Ecclesitheurge is one of the most overpowered things I've ever seen in a d20 game but not one person outside of these boards have even raised an eyebrow. Hell, one of the first results on Teh Google for this archetype is people on the paizo boards whining how underpowered it is.

[Insomniac]

Technically, Pathfinder is supposed to be fully backwards compatible with 3.0 and 3.5 so you can still have all your favorite Fromunda cheese spells if the DM permits them.

Along with that, your core class has Prestigle class level abilities rolled into it, before you go into craziness with Traits, racial abilities and Archetypes.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Ecclesitheurge is completely batshit. If I ever play PF I know what I'm playing. Yeesh.