I read Paranoia and I don't want to live anymore

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I read Paranoia and I don't want to live anymore

Post by Dean »

I have always been dubious of the way people speak about Paranoia. People say it's game where everything you know about RPG's is thrown out the window. That's it's the opposite of a power fantasy, a game where you fail and die in horrible ways and love it. I have never believed that idea. I assumed it was a lie like how people's descriptions of Call of Cthulhu is a memetic lie. Where every Grognard tells you it's a horror game where you're weak and powerless and die just by meeting the gaze of unknowable terror but the actual play reports are games where a shotgun toting detective and an axe-wielding cheerleader team up with insane archivists to flamethrower Abominations in sewers and other awesome shit.

In my quest to uncover what I assumed to be the truth about Paranoia I downloaded the latest edition. I thought I would make an OSSR of it and it might be worth some laughs but by the first chapter I realized I could not review it because Paranoia is madness incarnate. Paranoia is so fucking insane, so mind-bogglingly terrible, so Incredifucked that I cannot even review it. It is ironically alike some Lovecraftion tome. I do not possess the mental fortitude to comprehend it let alone analyze it. My review of every chapter would just be this

Image

Over and over again. So this is not so much a review as me explaining what Paranoia says in it's own book and then challenging someone on this board to explain to me not why Paranoia is good, but what Paranoia even is.

I will first try to describe Paranoia as it is written.

The Unworkable Concept
Page 5 tells us directly that the gamemaster is "against the player characters". In his fight against the players he has total control over every aspect of the game. Players who know or reference the rules of the game are to have their character killed. Referencing or doing things out of character should result in that character being killed, listed examples include things like rolling dice or having the Paranoia book. Ponder that shit.
On page 6 the game describes what it is. Things like what the players are, what the world is like, and the basic idea of the game begin to get covered but before you get too cocky with your knowledge of what the game is they include a "Note" so insane I'll just write it here myself.
"We could say everything in the main text is true, but we'd be lying. Not everything you read about Alpha Complex, Troubleshooters, Paranoia or anything else in this book is completely true. Or maybe it is."
That is a line in the rulebook telling you that the rulebook is untrue, and it's not talking about the in-character pieces, it is specifically referencing the parts outside of the in-character segments. Paranoia's descriptions of Paranoia are false. The book is a hardbound liars paradox.

The Unusable Setting
The Paranoia world is vague and internally contradictory. It says this is intentional and that giving you information would be against the whole point. That is to say the gameworld, which is also a lie, does not explain what it is or how it works. I would say that is the least useable setting idea it is possible to think up. What little information is given is that the characters are clones created in a vat with no history or identity. This means every character is the same character and that if a player fell unconscious during character creation and woke up exactly as play started they would have exactly the same amount of story created for their character as anyone else could have created for theirs.

The PC's are clones who go on missions. We get examples of the sorts of missions they go on. The first example is to kill a sewer rat. The second example is classified. Then we're told that the PC's should be trying to sabotage their missions and their teammates. You are not told what you are doing and you are trying to stop your teammates from doing it. It then says that if players do play the way you want them to, that is turning on each other and doing "smart play" as the game calls it then you should punish them. Try and read this.
Characters who let other take the risks will at first feel safe because characters who take risks in Paranoia get turned into vat-paste. However when you see players holding back too often you should start having the risk takers succeed at ludicrous actions, gain promotions, and lose less lives than those who are playing it smart

EXAMPLE: The characters are pinned down by enemy fire behind a rapidly dissolving pile of cover. All the players are arguing over what to do, when one heroic soul declares:
Player: "Humph! Stand back, timorous cravens! My character leaps over the barricade into the hail of bullets, sowing grenades like seeds, charging resolutely toward the Commie traitors
Gamemaster: "Bravo! Bravissimo! Well... you leap out of cover and lob your grenades at the enemy gun emplacements — and that's what they are: gun emplacements manned by reprogrammed scrubots! (Rolls dice, ignores result.) You make your perception check and notice that they are mindlessly firing at the cover you were hiding behind. (Rolls dice again, obviously ignores result.) Dextrously, you dodge out of the way, tossing grenades hither and yon. (Rolls dice yet again, wincing convincingly.) Oooh! Too bad — a critical failure. (Contemplates for a minute, rolls dice and seems to study them, then sighs.) Well, the grenades take out most of the scrubots, but a few bounce down into the cover your 'friends' are hiding behind. (Clatter of more dice.) Which explodes in a ball of fire. The remaining scrubots begin to fire at the craven cow — I mean, at the rest of the team unobstructed. (Clatter.) Ow! That's gotta hurt..."
The Rules: Fuck!
I could review the rules but that last example tells you I don't need to. I don't need to tell you that the skills don't tell you what they do, or that the DC's are made up with no guide or any other thing because none of it matters! The ACTUAL LISTED PROCESS for any action occurring in Paranoia is that the player says they use a skill, the GM makes the DC as low or as high as they want, the player rolls their dice in that skill, adds that number to their governing ability score to get the total score then GM ignores the result then tells you what happened! Holy fuck why! Why are their MULTIPLE math steps for the player and MULTIPLE decision points for the GM if none of it matters! If my stats never mattered why must they also be random? Why did we have to randomly generate each stat and skill one at a time! Why does every action add two meaningless random numbers then ignore the meaningless result! MY BRAIN IS FULL OF FUCK

Paranoia does not seem to fulfill the definitions of "game" or "playing" or "roles". I don't know what it is.
Last edited by Dean on Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Laertes »

Look up some of the iconic prewritten adventures like Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues; they really help to give you an example of what it's like and what players will be expected to do.
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Re: I read Paranoia and I don't want to live anymore

Post by Koumei »

Dean wrote: Paranoia does not seem to fulfill the definitions of "game" or "playing" or "roles". I don't know what it is.
Some people will tell you it's a revolutionary/pretentious approach to playing the game in a totally different way, where you play the character "as they are" without a backstory, where you can't powergame, where blah blah blah.

That's not actually true. It's not a game, it's not even a method of punishing your players for being too good at D&D. It's an elaborate trolling exercise. A trolling exercise that has had several editions and print runs. And every time someone "plays" Paranoia, rages about it, or more typically both, it was successful.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Paranoia is complex and despite being a fan I can't decide which of two things it is, or if it is both, or something else.

But the whole "anti power gaming experience in the now" thing is bullshit by people doing it wrong.

Paranoia, in particular the "kill them if they know the shitty rules, all this is secret no players are allowed to read it!" thing generally reads like it is a comical send up of similar Gygaxian bullshit in other products, including D&D of the original period which were being 100% serious when they suggested, well exactly the same shit. But you know, parodies, serious, not always easy to tell which. But in Paranoia's defense a lot of the rest of the material was clear parody of cold war paranoia, super hero powers, sci-fi etc... So that it also parodied the stupider things from RPGs with over the top farcical versions of the same anti-player knowledge bullshit rants pulled by D&D in the early days sort of fits.

However, despite some fucking terrible rules, the basic underlying set up of Paranoia IS a good structure for a game, and by that I don't mean the basic underlying rules, they've never been good, often in fact probably deliberately bad, but the actual setting and setup structure. The setting, the computer, the complex, the role of the players, the role of secret societies all works very nicely to create exactly the right sort of hooks and setting for an oppositional comedic game. And NOT oppositional between the GM and players, it's very much about being oppositional between the players... and the other players. Sure the GM kills you and produces opportunities for you to kill yourself, but they are still the usually helpful game master facilitating the game and NOT just setting out to defeat you and humiliate you.

But hey, there are a lot of asshole GMs and stupid players out there who one way or another, often because of Gygaxian indoctrinations so deep they refuse to see similar shit in Paranoia as farce, buy into the worst possible interpretation of the setting and game style. And of any RPG Paranoia is the one I have heard the MOST reports of from other gamers where they basically go "Yeah Bob used to run that... we never speak of it again, and I gave up Paranoia/RPGs/Gaming afterwards too... also whatever did happen to Bob... that bastard".

Me, I run it as farce, I use it as a setup to pit players against each other in a light hearted not altogether serious contest to kill each others characters (or their own) in fun ways. If I need to I house rule some of the most blatant failings (like the total failure of a damage system in the edition I use) and I'm pretty open about letting the players know stuff and use the books (because anything else is just stupid and impractical if not outright counterproductive). People have a lot of fun with that style of game but it isn't suited to serious or long term play (great for one off events though).
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Post by Voss »

It is a satirical farce. Taking it seriously (and at face value) is failing a stupidity check. Like taking a Monty Python sketch about cannibalism as a recommendation to actually go out and eat people.
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Post by tussock »

What PL said, Dean. Reread it as a deliberate parody of itself. The awful is the point.


The setting is a thing that's supposed to arbitrarily fuck over the clones by making them destroy themselves at every possible juncture. Everything you do is wrong, you have failed your mission, you are a communist, you are a member of an illegal secret society, you are a mutant, so please report for recycling, and remember, the computer is your friend. Welcome new clone, are you happy? Happiness is mandatory.

The clones are never supposed to know what they're doing, why they're doing it, or who it's for. It's a dystopian secret society and you're not cleared for that. Accepting your ignorance and being subversive, self-serving, and getting everyone else in trouble along the way, without anyone noticing you, is the entire experience. Sticking your head up is the end of your clone, asking questions is death.

The strongest play style is to encourage others to participate more often than yourself. While noting that refusing to participate is treason, please report to the recycling centre. Are you happy to participate? Happiness is mandatory.


The rules are there to support all that, in an open and honest way. Skill check? LOL, fail, dead, please try again. The rules aren't there to save you, they're there to help you enjoy the descent into mindless doublethink and passive happiness, while actively trying to subvert everything and turn everyone else in without dying too much.

I mean, you could cooperate, but that's what communists do, and communism is treason. Not cooperating, of course, is what secret societies do, and secret societies are treason. Are you happy? Happiness is mandatory.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

It's more of a meme than a game, anyway.

If you really, really want to take down Paranoia you need to give it the same treatment FatR/Something Awful gave Exalted. That is, you need to show that the memes suck using an angle the fanbase hasn't seen before or are dissonant with the game as it's presented. Alternatively, you can present a countermeme that sucks all of the coolness from the setting. Something like Paranoia is in fact a Disney theme park version of 1984/2001 and the number of times your characters are 'killed' can get redeemed for Frozen merchandise.
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Post by Prak »

It strikes me as the kind of game that was only meant to be pure parody and never played, a la HOL (Human Occupied Landfill), that people actually decided to play, perhaps because it says "everything is made up and the rules don't matter." And, yeah, the writer of Paranoia is most likely (I hope) laughing his ass off that people actually play his attempt at absurd parody.

I can only imagine that actually playing it is an exercise in very sedentary improv.
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Post by Voss »

Prak_Anima wrote:It strikes me as the kind of game that was only meant to be pure parody and never played, a la HOL (Human Occupied Landfill), that people actually decided to play, perhaps because it says "everything is made up and the rules don't matter." And, yeah, the writer of Paranoia is most likely (I hope) laughing his ass off that people actually play his attempt at absurd parody.

I can only imagine that actually playing it is an exercise in very sedentary improv.
Nah, it was played a great deal back in its day. But it assumed a) a sense of humor on the part of everyone involved and b) beer and pretzels. If you took it super-serious you were doing it wrong. If you played it as a dark comedy while drinking, eating pizza and shooting the shit, you had fun.

Your clones are supposed to die. If you're not intentionally doing it in the most hilarious manner possible (usually involving screwing over other people at the same time), you're missing opportunities. People I played it with generally took it as a challenge to be the last clone standing.
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Post by Krusk »

Voss wrote:Nah, it was played a great deal back in its day. But it assumed a) a sense of humor on the part of everyone involved and b) beer and pretzels. If you took it super-serious you were doing it wrong. If you played it as a dark comedy while drinking, eating pizza and shooting the shit, you had fun.

Your clones are supposed to die. If you're not intentionally doing it in the most hilarious manner possible (usually involving screwing over other people at the same time), you're missing opportunities. People I played it with generally took it as a challenge to be the last clone standing.
Basically. Its a blast when played as a quick oneshot between relatively serious campaigns to let off some steam. The GM is explicitly told to be the worst GM imaginable, and the players are told to be the worst players you could think of. Its basically the best RPG DMing advice around, if you swapped every "Do X" with "Do not do X".

Going into it with the awareness of "This is not a good RPG. It is a blast to play, and we will do it. You will die, but the points don't matter" really helps. If you try to do it seriously, you will fail and hate it unless you are actually one of the worst GMs or Players imaginable.

Most Paranoia games I've seen only half use the rules anyway, usually resorting to "Roll high, you get some arbitrary mods and if you are higher than X you succeed" for basically any tasks. The general rule is "BS the GM until they let you do things".

I've never seen the quest of a paranoia RPG matter. Its usually an excuse to get the PCs together, and then off on their own so they can basically try to frame one another for X, and have legal reason to kill one another. Then eventually a couple of the PCs try to make it back after "completing" the quest and see if they can be the only winners.

So yes, every element of paranoia is terrible. Thats why its so good.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

In some old White Dwarf there was a Paranoia/40K crossover scenario. It was pure hilarity.
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Post by hogarth »

Voss wrote:It is a satirical farce. Taking it seriously (and at face value) is failing a stupidity check. Like taking a Monty Python sketch about cannibalism as a recommendation to actually go out and eat people.
Or like getting angry at a "Coyote vs. Roadrunner" cartoon. The coyote isn't supposed to win half the time, you know.
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Post by Lokathor »

The book is a hardbound liars paradox
No. It's saying that some parts of the book aren't true, not that all of the book is untrue. The part about other parts being a lie doesn't have to itself be a lie. That's the difference.
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Post by Dean »

I have no problems with Paranoia being a satirical farce if that's what it is acknowledged as, but as Phonelobster alludes to I can think of three threads off the top of my head with people referencing Paranoia as evidence for things like RPG's not being about power fantasies and rule's lite gaming being good. Surely if Paranoia is known to be a farcical travesty that's not an argument people should make.

I think Koumei's on it. If it's a terrible game where everyone trolls each other for fun I can accept that it could be enjoyable for the same reason that all group social experiences can be fun. Trying to figure out how it was a legitimate game and counterpoint to traditional RPG thinking was the thing I couldn't do.
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Post by Krusk »

Dean wrote:I can think of three threads off the top of my head with people referencing Paranoia as evidence for things like RPG's not being about power fantasies and rule's lite gaming being good. Surely if Paranoia is known to be a farcical travesty that's not an argument people should make.
People who make those arguments are probably not making good arguments. Paranoia is widely acknowledged to be good despite its rules. Not because of.
I think Koumei's on it. If it's a terrible game where everyone trolls each other for fun I can accept that it could be enjoyable for the same reason that all group social experiences can be fun.
This is the only way I've ever seen it described. I've played in many games with many groups.
Trying to figure out how it was a legitimate game and counterpoint to traditional RPG thinking was the thing I couldn't do.
And you just shouldn't.
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Post by silva »

Dean, the anti-D&D game is called Freemarket, not Paranoia.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Dean wrote:people referencing Paranoia as evidence for things like RPG's ...
Any attempt to reference Paranoia in an argument or discussion about other RPGs is almost inevitably either dishonest or stupid.

Paranoia's oppositional player vs player "the objective is to lose hilariously and be the last asshole standing" thing is brilliant, it IS an RPG... but really it's firmly in it's own Genre.

I'd like there to be other RPGs in that Genre... but there basically aren't. And you really can't look at Paranoia, even when it's at it's best and draw altogether many conclusions from it. Most people that do are basically pulling a dishonest or stupid comparison as a last ditch defense of some stupid position about normal RPGs. The "er... everything else failed as an argument... wait... WHAT ABOUT PARANOIA!" defense is... really bad.

I think the appropriate response to that is "Paranoia is always an exception and doesn't really count in discussions about things which are not Paranoia".
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

PhoneLobster wrote:Paranoia's oppositional player vs player "the objective is to lose hilariously and be the last asshole standing" thing is brilliant, it IS an RPG... but really it's firmly in it's own Genre.

I'd like there to be other RPGs in that Genre... but there basically aren't.
How close does Kobolds Ate My Baby get? I've heard it discussed in similar terms but never looked at either of them.
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Post by Voss »

Dean wrote:I have no problems with Paranoia being a satirical farce if that's what it is acknowledged as, but as Phonelobster alludes to I can think of three threads off the top of my head with people referencing Paranoia as evidence for things like RPG's not being about power fantasies and rule's lite gaming being good. Surely if Paranoia is known to be a farcical travesty that's not an argument people should make.
I can reference entire schools of thought that insist that blatantly horrible things are for the common good. This isn't evidence of anything but the supporters being crazy, horrible people.
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Post by Koumei »

Great Orc Gods is kind of similar in that it just pisses about for rules and sets players against each other in the name of comedy, and character creation is so quick that constant deaths aren't a big deal. It does actually let you look at the rules, mind you. Basically your stats are a list of how much the different gods hate you (god of Dying, god of Fighting etc.) and you roll against those stats to do anything, with success generally being "you do the thing" (with most foes thus being killed in one hit) and failure often being "you die".

The gods are also played by varying players, and you can spend another player's Spite to make rolls harder for them if you're covering the god they're trying to defy. Success grants them goblins that can be spent for bonuses on rolls.

That's the only one I could name though, and it does the important thing of telling players what the fuck is going on (and also adhering to what rules are there, or rather, adhering to the results of any dice that are rolled even if they're rolled arbitrarily).
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Post by silva »

If we are talking player-vs-player, there is a bunch of games that does it in some way. The Mountain Witch, Amber, 3:16, Cold City, Agon, Houses of the Blooded, *World games, etc.
Last edited by silva on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

silva wrote:*World games, etc.
I'm pretty sure none of those games are actually like Paranoia in any meaningful way.

But I think you demonstrate excellently one of my points.

Silva likes *world shit like a weird obsessive advertising troll. One of the stupid fucking ideas those games push is serious amateur drama "realz role playerz" stupid ideas about player vs player antagonism of the worst and most counter productive type in a game format, style, setting and Genre that is only sabotaged by adding that stupid element.

But Paranoia does Player vs Player and is fun so... last ditch stupid defense "But what about Paranoia?". Answer "fuck off those games are nothing like Paranoia".
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Post by PhoneLobster »

TarkisFlux wrote:How close does Kobolds Ate My Baby get? I've heard it discussed in similar terms but never looked at either of them.
I'm not sure. I have heard of it but I don't know it.

But I doubt it's altogether too close. It would take a bit more than just a comedic satire game with weak short lived characters, the elaborate setting integral setups for plotting and counter plotting and multiple conflicting simultaneous missions are absolutely vital elements to Paranoia's function.

Take that out and you just have Toon. I guess. I've very little knowledge of Toon.
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Post by silva »

Well, I thought you were talking about player vs player. It seems you want the specific flavour of player vs player Paranoia does. If thats the case, then I agree only Paranoia will do it.

It may be interesting to note though, that each of those games (Apocalypse World included) does a more or less specific kind of PvP too, thats not the same as the others.
Last edited by silva on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Krusk »

TarkisFlux wrote: How close does Kobolds Ate My Baby get? I've heard it discussed in similar terms but never looked at either of them.
I played it once.

I remember not liking it much because it took itself too seriously in its desire to be funny god damn it. Once isn't a lot to go on from experience levels and maybe we did it wrong or something. Never had an urge to play again.
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