What do you think of the dueling card game Yomi?

[OgreBattle]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sirlin/yomi

Anyone played it? I think there's a web version already. The goal is to simulate 1 on 1 Street Fighter-esque combat with cards

[brized]

It accomplishes exactly what it sets out to do: you get the moment to moment tactical depth of a fighting game without needing high reflexes or dexterity.

You also don't have to research/memorize hidden frame data for every character to play at a high level, though you can look at other decks and memorize them to know everyone's capabilities, and you can view an opponent's discard pile at any time to further your ability to predict what he/she might have in hand. I've personally found that it just takes a few games vs. a character to gauge their capabilities, though, especially since discard piles are public info.

Games run 10-30 minutes. Each character deck plays much differently from the others. For example, some characters have more attacks, others have more blocks, etc., and their cards have different characteristics compared to the others, like speed, damage, special abilities, etc. There are multiple ways to play the same character effectively. It's possible to make big comebacks. The game is very well balanced and the skill cap is very high. A big part of it is figuring out what your opponent will do based on what they most likely have in their hand combined with their personal idiosyncrasies.

So...if you enjoy the tactical depth of fighting games but dislike the dexterity/reflexes required to play them well, buy it. If you just want a top tier 1v1 game with fucking awesome mindgames, I highly recommend it. The kickstarter will have new 2v1 and 2v2 modes too.

[Josh_Kablack]

Already siggied.

The KS is for the new edition, with the round 2 characters.
The game has been playable online at fantasystrike.com since at least feb 2011 (albeit with some various wacky monetization schemes) and the ios version just dropped a few months ago.

There is a frighteningly obsessive and competitive online fanbase, who argue much like Denizens about various aspects of game balance, and then try to back up those arguments with head to head play, so the balance is phenomonal at high skill levels in srs competition. It's the New Player Experience that suffers. If you just play a few games casually and have no interest in memorizing your opponent's deck, it can feel a whole lot like you're just playing rock, paper, scissors with better art (by which I mean genzoman boobs).

[brized]

Meh, just knowing your own deck brings enough value to know whether your attacks and/or throws will outspeed your opponent's and so on within a few turns, especially if you bother to look at the opponent's discard pile. Though there are plenty of people who don't grasp that and probably never will.

The new decks are going to include a reference card now with move distributions, speeds, and so on:



That should help the new player experience for some people at least. Or at least show that the assertion that the game is just RPS is a huge load of horseshit.

[OgreBattle]

So it's not a deckbuilding game, the decks are set characters that aren't changed?

[brized]

Correct. Each character deck is a Poker deck with different abilities keyed to the different card ranks for each character.



If you read the move stats on the reference card I previously posted, it should be much more readable with that in mind. It also uses Poker hands for some of its underlying mechanics, and the panda character explicitly uses Poker hands for some of his attacks.

Sirlin's working on a deckbuilding game called Codex, but he won't release it until he gets the mechanics and balance down on it. Who knows how long that'll take...He's been working on Yomi since 2005.

[Josh_Kablack]

So it's not a deckbuilding game, the decks are set characters that aren't changed?

Oh.

Here I thought you'd actually read the KS pitch or promo pages. But since that shows you haven't, I'll have to be a bit more basic:

Lemme start with some links:

Overview / Hype page at Sirlin games online store.

Rules of the game.

Genzoman boobage

Lengthy audio discussion between a top player and the designer

Shorter, more entertaining video review

Now the game itself is the attempt of a David Sirlin, a former Street Fighter tournament player former Capcom USA developer to translate the mind game component of arcade fighter games into a card game with no reflex component. Capcom refused to grant the license to use the Street Fighter characters, so Sirlin went ahead and developed his own IP instead:


Fig 1: The card on the left uses Capcom IP, the card on the right uses Sirlin games IP.

As an IP-scrubbed Street Fighter game, each player controls their own character, and each character is represented by a deck of cards. Literally, they have numbers and suits and you can ignore the pictures of panties and play some hands of poker with a Yomi deck. While it's got move text and numbers on it, that' card is also the ace of hearts.

In addition to the deck, each character has a character card like this:


Fig 2: with her shorts on, you're supposed to look at the numbers

These character cards have more art, some flavor text and varying numbers for Hit Points and Combo Points for and a unique special ability for each character. This represents the way that different characters in fighting games are tougher or faster or have longer combos than others.

And the spiffy new edition up on KS adds a reference card with all the frequencies of each move in each deck, which brized posted above. That's really just a checklist, so while it's helpful, it's not exciting nor even essential to the game. (Also the KS adds EX versions, which add cards you can't play in poker, but those are optional funsies add-ons, not tournament legal)

So, yeah, the decks are static totally not a deckbuilder. The deckbuiler using these characters is the game with my name in the rulebook.

Moving on, Yomi uses a variant of Rock/Paper/Scissors as the central mechanic.

Fig3: This plus weighted valuations and hand management is the whole game.

Each player plays a card face down and then reveals it. If both reveal different types of cards (attack, throw, block, dodge) then the RPS wheel applies. If they revealed the same type of card, like if both played attack, then the one with the faster speed wins. And if you win you get a payoff according to that little chart from the hype page:

Win with a block --> draw cards
Win with an attack --> do a combo
Win with a throw --> do a combo
Win with a dodge hit --> back with a single move

Strategically, the value of each of those options will vary depending on variables like remaining Hit Points and the number of cards in players' hands.For example, if your opponent is low on cards, they probably want to draw which means blocking is good for them. But then you know that they want to draw cards with a block so you probably want to throw them. But then, they know that you know that they want to block, and what started as rock paper scissors becomes:

Figure 4: blindfolded princess sold separately

And while there are more wrinkles to the game, with special move cards that change parts of the valuation equations and options for powering with Aces or playing Jokers as C-C-C-Combo breaker serving to help reinforce the fighting game theme, that's the basic overview of the game.


Thematically, Yomi competes with the BattleCON boardgames, but Sirlin is a lot more obsessed with making sure all characters are balanced and actively cultivates a tournament community, while the Level99 games people seem to have more of a focus on releasing more and more new characters. However, the business strategy of revising editions to improve balance is far less exciting to casual players than releasing expansions with NEW CHARACTERS!! ShinY!! More!!.

What I'm saying is that Sirlin actually cares about avoiding power creep, and revises things when characters are seen to dominate tournaments. This is so rare in the boardgame world that it actually alienates people:

I suggest you wait for the 4th edition before buying in. This one needs more playtesting.

Wow. A complete "screw you" to anyone who bought 2nd edtion and the upgrade pack.

The speedy releases of new editions were a bit of a slap to the face for a lot of fans,

So if you want to reward doing actual playtesting and encourage the sort of game design that fixes problems when they are found instead of launching shovelware on a semiannual schedule, then you should back Yomi.

On the downside, Yomi really is lacking in the New Player Experience / casual play side. The depth of this game only becomes apparently after many repeated plays. You can get thousands of replays out of this game before exploring all of the strategy space. And if you are the sort of player who is likely to do so, that will well justify shelling out the big bucks to get the super deluxe all characters and all stretch goals and foil aces and such reward level. But if you just want a game to futz around with for maybe a half dozen plays while waiting for Steve to show up to your D&D session, you're not going to see much of that depth, and you might be better served with a game that's lighter and more humorous.


Figure 5: The side panels of the arcade cabinet.

[Josh_Kablack]

But since I am firmly on the side of shilling here, let me add anohter post full of testimonials.

These are in 10 question format and were asked before the round 1 characters saw tweaks and while the round 2 characters were still in mid-development, so a few answers are dated:

Deluks917.

Which Sirlin game?

Yomi. Used to play some FD.

What drew you to that particular game?

Reading sirlin's blog. PS seemed too confusing.

Why should readers consider you a top player of that game? (This is where you boast)[/FONT]

Tournament Record in Reverse Chronological order from the end of yomi-league (forgot when draft league happened):

3/3 - Yomi - Winner 4-0, bo3
2/13 Yomi - Winner 4-1, bo3
Cpat Draft League (Winner) 5-1 in season, won finals
Yomi4liberty Playoffs 2-0 bo7
Yomi4Liberty4 (Winner) 3-0 bo7
Yomi4Liberty2 3-2 bo5 (4th place)
Yomi4Liberty1 (Second) 3-1 bo5
Team Draft Round Robin (with cpat, loses were my fault not his) 1-2 (dropped after)
Tornament for Liberty and Science - 4-0 bo7
Yomi-League Finals (Winner) 3-0 in bo7, 10-2 regular season in bo5. - finals July 11th


Prior to yomi-league I had a bad record. Though I had won two CC weeklies prior to this. This is winning a rather large percentage of all yomi tournaments since league 1 ended.

Why should someone who hasn't played that game give it a try?

It is a very, easy game to learn with a lot of depth. Fairly optimal amount of variance in my opinion. Low enough that tournament results are consistent but high enough that games are interesting between players of any skill level.

Who are your favorite characters in that game, and why are they your favorites?

Favorites: I like playing all of the chars except Grave (10 and TPOS are obnoxious and make games unfun. Also a bit OP) and Midori (way too weak). Geiger is probably my favorite. Though I think Jaina is the most complicated and deep char.

What tips would you give a new player who wants to win more games

Don’t goldburst.

Watch videos but do not accept what the commentators say without critical evaluation.

As a given character you need to approach each of the 10 mus totally differently.

What tips would you give an intermediate player who wants to win more games?

The way I suggest you think about you and your opponent’s move is as a “range.” Try to understand the “dynamics” of a mu. Example as Lum in Setsuki/Lum I want to mostly block and build cards for things like AAAA and Poker Flourish. So the level 2 play is for setsuki to throw. Then the level 3 thing is for lum to atk. Level 4 being setsuki does alot of dodges or queens. Then back to level one. Note at each level you don’t “just” atk. But if you think they will dodge alot you need to play a range of options with a high number of atks. Try not to lose to your opponent’s level one strategy.

The amount of cards you need depends mostly on your opponent’s life total and how much dmg you have in hand you can realistically unload. Don’t block more then you have to. Deal dmg throughout the game

Learn from everyone. Even players you think are worse then you. Almost everyone’s play illuminate at least one mu. Try new things even if they are unlikely to work.

Think through your moves. Especially in the endgame

What tips would you give an advanced player who wants to win more games?

The most important advice is something friiik told me. The way to improve is to understand how to get the most value from your weaker cards. And how to make the most out of bad or mediocre situations. This is the only way to win consistently in yomi. You can't just try to wait to draw good cards to start winning.

In my opinion the deepest thing written in the yomi subforum is by WaterD. He says if you only try to win combat with your A, dodge, K and 7 throw you can win as Degrey. Play those at the right times. Idk if this is strictly true. But it teaches that you shouldn't waste your strongest option when their strength might be meaningless. And that certain cards (top throws in a mu) can be super high win percentage cards if you wait for the right time.

What's your most controversial opinion about this game? Is there something where you disagree with the conventional wisdom or other top players?

The yomi community is split on a number of fundamental issues including Is “block strong or weak?” and is “lum number ½ or mid tier?” I take the position Lum is strong and block sucks. However it is hard to have especially controversial opinions when the community has no consensus. The real split seems to be between the older players and the newer players with respect to a number of issues (of which I am a member).

I also have a number of disagreements on the direction of expo. And with the balance of FD. But these opinions are also not exactly unique to me.

1. I'm Bob199, the world traveling gamer/playtester/banner maker.
2. Yomi and as DrFaustus said "Kongai (which sadly lost it's playerbase), also casual Flash Duel games"
3. Yomi fixes the complaints that I had as an MtG player: no mana screw/flooding and no needing to keep buying new cards just to stay competitive. It also does a damn good job of capturing the feel I get playing Street Fighter, TPoS leaves me feeling just as salty as dp > fdac > Ult 1.
4. Ranked 3rd on the tournament leaderboard (I'll take the top spot from Deluks eventually =b), having won said tournaments with different characters every time, including a 10-1 runback from losers brackets with Midori, and having probably played in the most Yomi tournaments on the server.
5. Because it's awesome.
6. Can I say everyone? Sure, I play some characters(Val/Arg/Perse) more than others but there isn't a character in this game that I've played with that I didn't like, I can't think of any other game where I can say the same.
7. My Yomi Beginners Guide:
8. Read #7
9. Believe in the heart of the cards, oh wait... wrong game.
   But the main thing is just play a lot so you can build a feel for how the game flows and learn what cards get played when and why.
10. Midori's secretly top tier and everybody sandbags with him to keep inflating Grave's ego.

Who are you?
Juushichi, a smash player who found this game and fell in love with it.
Which Sirlin game?
Yomi and I am learning Flash Duel.
What drew you to that particular game?
I dunno, ninjas? Mostly friends, because we all picked up the game at the same time.
Why should readers consider you a top player of that game? (This is where you boast)
I dunno if I can call myself a top player if I'vent won anything significant enough (except for a teams RR), but I think that I am a high-level Setsuki player and one of the best of such on the server. At one point, I was the 2nd best Setsuki player on the server and 3% away from Grand Master, though I have become more casual about QM over the last half year or so (I currently sit at 24). Outside of that, I was also the best Valerie on the server at some point. (currently 23)
Why should someone who hasn't played that game give it a try?
I am bad at these sort of questions... but because it's fun and forces you to think in flexible ways, I think. Plus it brings the intense competitive aspect of a fighter and simplifies it for easier consumption.
Who are your favorite characters in that game, and why are they your favorites?
- Setsuki, she's a ninja... she's fast, she makes people cry and she's the best non-grappler throw character in the game. She just hits just about on every level I like to hit in a fighter. She can be cheesy, but I think I play the character a bit differently so she is refreshing to me. It's easy to see why I win and easy to see why I lose.
- Persephone, she honestly represents the control I like to have over opponents' minds/gameplay. I feel like I am a nice guy, but in fighting games and such... I like to make opponents feel helpless, like they can't read me or they're getting overpowered. I get a bit of this when the vortex is up with Setsuki, but even more so with Perse and her game. She throws a lot and I like that, she's exerts a lot of control and pressure. Ryker told me that this character was perfect for me and I agree.
- Troq, this big lug also hits a bit on the same note as Perse and Sets... but just hits really hard. He's got reversal options and fast options so people can't just cheese me all day and still maintain's a grapplers level of control. I also like hitting 7 into eagle totem. It's fun!
What tips would you give a new player who wants to win more games?
Play more! The more you play this game, the more game sense you'll get. Personalize your playstyle. Optimal play will always be a part of the game, but do what works for you and do what you understand. You can always learn more.
What tips would you give an intermediate player who wants to win more games?
Examine why you lose and LEARN BAD MATCHUPS. Mid-level play in Yomi is like mid-level play in smash, I think. It's very frustrating and you don't really know what's going on. "How do I keep getting thrown?" "How did they know I would reversal here?" These sort of questions are things you should ask yourself. Self-examination and appropriate application will get you out of mid-level play.
What tips would you give an advanced player who wants to win more games?
Study your peers. By this stage, I'm sure you're familiar with your character. Sure you're familiar with their matchups (especially in base set yomi), but this is where the nuances in player observation really comes through. How does this player open games? What happens when they get to mid life? Low life? How do they respond after hitting a big combo? How do they respond after eating a big combo? Stuff like that.
What's your most controversial opinion about this game? Is there something where you disagree with the conventional wisdom or other top players?
I don't believe that Lum is as good as people think he is. I think Yomi Lum has been carried by two amazing players and that he is not a common character, so many people aren't sure how to deal with him, even now. I can personally count on my hands the amount of times that I have played Lum. I think he is the worst of the four really good characters (Sets, Jaina, Grave) and he will not like very many of the things he'll have to deal with in expansion.

Who are you?
Ryker, Alabama country boy, fighting game player, smasher.

Which Sirlin game?
Yomi. I don't have anyone willing to teach me PS and that game is completely foreign to me.

What drew you to that particular game?
I had a top level Blazblue player who was a friend of mine (Dacidbro, in before name search). He talked about it before it was finished for even open beta. About a year later, I found the game. I played off and on in beta and started playing consistently since launch.

Why should readers consider you a top player of that game? (This is where you boast)
Because I am. I am one of the only two notable Geiger players. I made top 8 in Season 1. I am possibly the single best player in the game at winning bad match-ups and my record shows it.

Why should someone who hasn't played that game give it a try?
Because it is simple in concept, and incredibly deep in strategy. If you have ever wanted to play a fighting game, but your laziness has stopped you, then PLAY THIS GAME.

Who are your favorite characters in that game, and why are they your favorites?
Geiger and DeGrey (outside shoutout to Rook). Both are fairly low tiered, but that's because what I want to do in the game is fairly bad. In Expo, I also play Gloria, Quince, and BBB. The common thread is that I enjoy making you sweat. Every single one of these characters is rewarded for smart blocking and has high risk, high reward options. I block turn one, and you're thinking "Shit, I just burned a reversal into your block. Now I'm down 3 cards." Then I block your normal, "SHIT! He's got so many cards now that he definitely has his good options. When is it coming? I don't want him to block, but I don't want to get hit." I will always be known as the man willing to throw things like Check Mate Buster because I LOVE playing the game of respect.

What tips would you give a new player who wants to win more games?

Don't play Sets. She will teach you bad habits that will prevent your growth in this game for a long time.

Never play a card randomly. Ever. Always think about it. Think and be wrong and you at least have a platform to learn from.

Every time you lose, examine why you lost.

ASK QUESTIONS! People will help you.

What tips would you give an intermediate player who wants to win more games?

Follow patterns and count cards. Look at what they've played and figure out the odds of whether they have a certain card you are scared of in your hand. If you're given information about their hand, write it down. Never forget the options they've shown you, even if they are blocks.

Learn to apply cross-up normals. This is a part of the game often overlooked and leads to great damage.

What tips would you give an advanced player who wants to win more games?

Man the fuck up. If they're going to throw, make them hurt for it. Raw pilebunker. CMB. Tag them with a 5 in the face. Turn up the heat and make them worry about touching that throw button again. You're an advanced player, I don't care how advanced the other player is, you can beat them and you can scare them. People thought Choke Artist was a robot, but in a doubles event recently, my partner and I kept the momentum going and bowled through her team twice in a row in FT5 sets. Learn how momentum works and turn it to your advantage, it is the single biggest intangible factor in the game.

What's your most controversial opinion about this game? Is there something where you disagree with the conventional wisdom or other top players?

Rook is high tier. I don't care if he has the worst MU in the game, it does not hold him back as much as all that and he is FAR from the bottom two that some people (<3 Deluks) think he is.

Who are you?
I am a guy who has an unpronucable name who also can't spell and not so secretly plays more pokemon than he does any of sirlin's games

Which Sirlin game?
I used to play yomi and than I quit and than I came back and played a little yomi and than I quit playing yomi but stayed because the community is ownage so I just hung out and chatted and now I am getting into Puzzle Strike and about to particiapte in my second tourny.


What drew you to that particular game?
Someone on different forum linked Sirlin's Blog and than I saw Yomi and I got goosebumps as it looked so awesome than I played it and yea.

Why should readers consider you a top player of that game? (This is where you boast)
I am not really that good at either game (nor am I that good at pokemon), I am pretty good at dominion which translates a little to Puzzle Strike. I am currently rocking the student 6 on Puzzle Strike but in the one tourny I participated in I went 2-2 as lum (which is like over half the lum games that have been played in recent tournies)

Why should someone who hasn't played that game give it a try?
Sirlin's games are well designed and all of that, but what I really think makes the games awesome is the awesome people who play those games. Really this community is awesome and shout-outs to like everyone.

Who are your favorite characters in that game, and why are they your favorites?
Rocking the Free characters always. This is partially because I feel like if I buy a character I will regret my choice of character for like the rest of my life, and partially because I really like the forced variety it gives you. I always feel like I am learning new things when I am playing the free characters and it never gets dull.

What tips would you give a new player who wants to win more games?
In Yomi work on getting maximum damage out of your combos and not running out of cards and not ending the game with more cards than you started with. In Puzzle Strike don't overbuy enders, start getting aquanited with the puzzle chips as those are the key to the game. In pokemon make a non-terrible team and play a bunch.

What tips would you give an intermediate player who wants to win more games?
In Yomi start examing character matchups as each is very different and can be played very different, there are a bajillion matchups so this should take a while. In Puzzle Strike you should have all of the chips memorized by this point and always be looking for new interactions. In pokemon help me make pokemon teams in Morn Chat!!

What tips would you give an advanced player who wants to win more games?
In Yomi, ask deluks he is actually good at this game. In Pokemon ask deluks he is actually good at this game. In Puzzle Strike. Finally a game I am better than deluks at. I feel I can comment on this one because I am an advanced player in dominion and so my tips for there might loosely translate. Learn how to play bad chips. When looking at a new bank often times you might see some obvious strategy that is dominate in most games that involve X chips but often there are some bad not often used chips that DO affect the strategy and can be useful.

What's your most controversial opinion about this game? Is there something where you disagree with the conventional wisdom or other top players?
That Puzzle Strike has barely any more player interaction than Dominion. Dominion has more of a multiplayer solitare feel because it is more of a multiplayer solitare. Of course multiplayer solitare is an interactive game that does involve making decisions based on what your opponent does. Both games are pretty interactive and I think the deck-building genre gets a lot of flak for being uninteractive when it isn't very true, it is just a different interaction than most people are used to.

1) i am rodohk, i think regina>taliesim. i am the other lowercase r guy, i think capital letters are ugly
2) yomi but forward to scg4
3) i saw it on sirlin's blog after reading playing to win
4) i am not a top player, i think im good maybe second tier of players but not top. i got second in the first tourny of 2013
5) if you havent played yomi your missing out on a awesome and deep competitive card game
6) my favorite to play is rook cause i just love his play style of sit back defense until i deal massive damage but my favorite character design is arg
7) the game isnt just rock paper scisors, learn the value of cards and that isnt just the damage output
8) to win more games win combat it sounds silly but its actually solid advice, valuate your cards and put yourself in the position to be able to win more combats than the opponent and then just play your leads
9) throws beet blocks and dodges
10) i dont see the big deal about pandas, i mean lum is a top character but pandas arent that great now fish shaman are bad ass

[Mask_De_H]

I used to be into Yomi when it was first a thing, I didn't know Sirlin was Kickstarting a Super Yomi Fighter 2. I'll have to get into it again.

[Blasted]

I'm a fan of the game on mobile devices, but $200 for the full set makes me cringe.

[brized]

Meh...it's $10 a deck, and they're all competitive.

Magic: The Gathering sells non-competitive pre-built decks for $7-40+ with a massively superior economy of scale. A single competitive deck goes for $200-1000+.

[Josh_Kablack]

Yeah $200 seems steep and definitely rules out impulse or even curiosity buys.

But the thing is that the $200 bundle is the ultra-completionist everything pack. The minimalist entry point is $40 for a set of four of decks which can each be played against any of the remaining three.

Compared to it's most direct competitor BattleCON...That's competitive pricing.

At the $200 level, you get 20 decks, which with the character, ex character, reference and destiny is 1180 cards. That's about 17 cents per card. With the $200 level you get enough material to support 20 up to players playing 10 different games at once.

I'm gonna use a less direct comparison here and go with my own most recent boardgame purchase of Star Realms, which everyone I have talked to has agreed is an incredible bargain as a $15 deckbuilder (at least before it went OoP). That's just a hair under 12 cents a card. And to have 20 people playing Star Realms, you would have to drop $150.

So while Yomi is not an impulse buy, and not a bargain when compared to other games, it's at least competitively priced with similar games and well within the range for premium games.

[duo31]

I love Yomi.

As a huge SF2 player and strategist, i love the fact that Sirlin has captured the feel of SF in a card game. I sadly don't have the reflexes for competitive Street Fighter, but i can kick ass in Yomi.

I also like Puzzle Strike, since it is an analog port of Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo and a deck building game.

I find the Kickstarter spendy, but then again, i've long ago told Sirlin to shut up and take my money.

Personally I find foils stupid and i kinda hope that that stretch goal isn't reached. But that people still buy Yomi when it is available to non-backers.

[Blasted]

Meh...it's $10 a deck, and they're all competitive.

Magic: The Gathering sells non-competitive pre-built decks for $7-40+ with a massively superior economy of scale. A single competitive deck goes for $200-1000+.

CCGs are very different cost models in that you can buy singles and take decks apart and recombine for new ones. And they're all overpriced because boosterpacks. I'd compare Yomi to something more like SmashUp, which I can buy a 4 player box for $20. That's half the price.
More than that, I can buy the complete first ed. of Yomi for ~$75 from BGG. The only value in the Kickstarter is receiving it slightly earlier and you probably pay a bit more than retail for the privilege.
I have Fantasy Strike, but will probably leave this kickstarter alone unless it suddenly becomes better value.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'd compare Yomi to something more like SmashUp, which I can buy a 4 player box for $20. That's half the price.

True, and as I keep repeating here, that sort of thing is a probably a better value for the casual player. A brand new player can be playing Smash Up in five minutes and seeing most of the depth of the game inside a half dozen plays.

Conversely, Yomi will hold up a lot better after the first hundred plays, and you very well may be seeing new depths after your thousandath play. The extra cost is paying for the sort of developing and playtesting that tries to make all options viable and fixes imbalances. But, I understand if you think game publishers should respond to criticism of the zombie faction being too powerful by ignoring it and shoveling out the expansion with bear cavalry instead. Because bear cavalry is an awesome concept.

[Blasted]

I'd compare Yomi to something more like SmashUp, which I can buy a 4 player box for $20. That's half the price.

True, and as I keep repeating here, that sort of thing is a probably a better value for the casual player. A brand new player can be playing Smash Up in five minutes and seeing most of the depth of the game inside a half dozen plays.

Conversely, Yomi will hold up a lot better after the first hundred plays, and you very well may be seeing new depths after your thousandath play. The extra cost is paying for the sort of developing and playtesting that tries to make all options viable and fixes imbalances.

I compared them due to having essentially the same format, but if you want to compare them to whether "serious" gamers play, you could compare it to Dominion or Ascension. Yomi is more expensive, again, the kickstarter is even 33% more expensive than the first edition in stores.

I can't fathom paying MSRP for something that's going to be significantly cheaper the moment actual stores get hold of it. Also, not having any discount of any kind for larger purchases is odd, because that will almost certainly happen once it's in your FLGS.

So at the moment the target market seems to be people who want to play with actual cards, rather than on a device, who can't possibly wait until it's in stores and who are going to commit to playing it long term. That seems a rather small market, relying on impatient people who really can wait to use cards instead of computers.

But, I understand if you think game publishers should respond to criticism of the zombie faction being too powerful by ignoring it and shoveling out the expansion with bear cavalry instead. Because bear cavalry is an awesome concept.

That's quite the strawman you've built for yourself there.

[TheFlatline]

Sirlin traditionally is reluctant to sell to "discount" sellers however, so you won't find a particularly good deal after launch. For a *long* time you could only pick up Yomi at MSRP.

Also, Sirlin has a... reputation when it comes to the marketing of his games. Basically they take the Apple path of paying for a premium. I remember there was some griping about how Puzzle Strike 3rd edition/shadow strike came out, where you got the priviledge of paying 75 dollars for a largely identical game except that avowed "bugs" were worked out. When people bitched about paying 75 bucks for 25 cents worth of cardboard, whose game balance was worked out by players, Sirlin told various members of the community to GTFO and not play his games any more. For a while in the game circles I moved in he had a really shitty reputation and that damaged his customer base somewhat.

Nevermind all that. I had my memory of the controversy wrong. Googling sirlin, puzzle strike, and controversy will serve you better than my rusty-ass memory.

Now that being said you probably won't find a better balanced game out of the box than from Sirlin. The dude is obsessed with balance in his games.

[TheFlatline]

Yeah $200 seems steep and definitely rules out impulse or even curiosity buys.

But the thing is that the $200 bundle is the ultra-completionist everything pack. The minimalist entry point is $40 for a set of four of decks which can each be played against any of the remaining three.

Compared to it's most direct competitor BattleCON...That's competitive pricing.

At the $200 level, you get 20 decks, which with the character, ex character, reference and destiny is 1180 cards. That's about 17 cents per card. With the $200 level you get enough material to support 20 up to players playing 10 different games at once.

I'm gonna use a less direct comparison here and go with my own most recent boardgame purchase of Star Realms, which everyone I have talked to has agreed is an incredible bargain as a $15 deckbuilder (at least before it went OoP). That's just a hair under 12 cents a card. And to have 20 people playing Star Realms, you would have to drop $150.

So while Yomi is not an impulse buy, and not a bargain when compared to other games, it's at least competitively priced with similar games and well within the range for premium games.

BattleCon is if memory serves a smaller print run. Or at least first edition was. The IOS app might have changed that. But generally speaking, the smaller the market the higher the price of the game.

I won't even mention what I've paid for small run board and card games.

[duo31]

I compared them due to having essentially the same format, but if you want to compare them to whether "serious" gamers play, you could compare it to Dominion or Ascension. Yomi is more expensive, again, the kickstarter is even 33% more expensive than the first edition in stores.

As someone who owns all the Dominion Expansions except money/land reprint, and bought them at discount from Amazon, I can tell you that $200 up front is still less expensive. Same for friends who own Ascension.

But Retail for Yomi is going to be Either $40 or $10, Either you buy a 4 Character pack, or you buy the individual Characters. Sirlin has stated that the big box of all 20, or even just the 10 new Characters will not be packaged for Retail, because too many people have gone onto various forums and bitched about the high cost of the game.

If you really wanted, you could spend $72 for the print yourself set.
Quit bitching about cost, this isn't a Cheepass Games product. Fuck just get some stickers and some poker decks and make proxies, all the rules text and most of the art assets are available on the Forums for Free.