Help me get the 'spirit' of DnD?

[radthemad4]

Okay, so I think I'm getting the hang of the mechanics of third edition DnD and derivatives, but I've realized I don't know much about the stuff most DnD worlds usually involve, e.g. afterlives, planes, fiends, the usual monsters, etc (yeah, I know that stuff isn't necessary for a DnD setting, but I'd like to know the default assumptions players and DMs have). Fluff on the Tomes is awesome, but I think it's meant to be read by someone already at least somewhat familiar with the stuff they talk about. I'm not really sure how to phrase what I'm asking for here, but the closest I can come up with is, "What are the books a beginner MC planning on using the DnD rules should definitely read at some point or other to get a feel for all DnD worlds, and in what order should they be read in?"

[shadzar]

jsut read any of the 2nd edition setings books. they will be many world with many changes. throw in a read of eBerron and you have another look. rad LotR to see where the foundation of D&D came from.

Basically D&D is derived from Tolkien jsut like any fantasy entertainment. you have medieval setting with magic and monster thrown in, and make your own story. the twist comes when you move to modern times or space, or aliens crash land with their spaceships.

it is really about what you and your players want to include, but at its core is founded in medieval cultures, societies and the like: kings, dukes, barons, queens, etc...

[Chamomile]

I don't think there is an actual explicit "this is how the default assumptions of D&D-land work" book, or set of books, or sections in books. You just read the fluff in the Monster Manuals and Manual of the Planes and etc. and piece it together from there.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that most D&D settings don't actually make any sense.

[Dean]

This seems like a flippant answer but the PHB, Dungeon Masters Guide, then Monster Manual in that order would be the quickest way to get the setting D&D is trying to sell you. PHB for the classes and spells, DMG for the planes and some setting conceits and the Monster Manual for the inhabitants of the worlds.

[brized]

Also, keep in mind that most D&D settings don't actually make any sense.

To clarify, most D&D settings offer you medieval technology on the surface - castles, horses as transport, etc.

However, D&D magic offers functionality that matches or exceeds modern technology - scrying, invisibility, teleportation, personal flight, instant curing of injuries and diseases, creation of food and water, instant building of structures, etc. If you look into the rules on spellcaster NPCs by settlement size in the DMG, you'll find that these effects are all within the city's means. Most metropolis-sized cities can afford one or more teleportation circles, rendering obsolete all other forms of transport for trade between other metropolises.

Any D&D setting that takes the default rules to their logical conclusion is a post-scarcity society that has more in common with Star Trek or Judge Dredd than Lord of the Rings. If your players don't give a shit about thinking things through, then it's no biggie. But if they are the types to say, "How do high-seas pirates even exist?", then you may want to make some sweeping house rule changes like making the game E6 to limit the advanced technology that comes with high level spells. And ban a few magic items and lower level spells that break settings while you're at it. Or have a good explanation of, for example, why create food and water and derivative magical items haven't made dirt farming obsolete.

[Dogbert]

d&d is like México: There are many d&ds, and no one can agree on which one is "the real d&d" (but everyone thinks theirs is).

There's the d&d from the RAW: This one hints at a game about bands of Heavy Metal murderhobos who play in Star Trek with medieval window dressing.

There's the d&d from the grognards: This one hints at a sword&sorcery comedy of errors about groups of (constantly shifting) red shirts living in the mud middle ages with magic and power forever out of their reach.

There's the d&d the post-AD&D people: This one hints at a game about trying to emulate fantasy fiction with no tools for fiction emulation whatsoever.

...and those just to name a few.

[hyzmarca]

It's worth noting that D&D has longrunning settings written by many different authors with different visions. And it has crossovers between those settings which were never intended when those settings were created.

Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, R.A. Salvatore's Forgotten Realms, and the Forgotten Realms from that one Spelljammer supplement are seriously not compatible with each other, even though they're supposed to be the same world (Never Mind Zakhara, Maztica, and Kara-Tur, which are supposed to be on the same planet).

The original D&D setting was literally whatever Gary Gygax's friends felt like playing that week. Greyhawk was originally created as an excuse plot for a weekly dungeon crawl and later expanded upon.

There is no default D&D, really. Not in setting and not in tone.

[Koumei]

Take a hit of mescaline* and then watch a heavy metal music video. There you go, that's the D&D spirit.

*I can't legally recommend this. It is likely a prohibited substance in your place of residence and I do not advocate breaking the law. Also I'm not a doctor, so you'll have to ask Frank if it's actually medically recommended to take mescaline. Or you could ask Ant I suppose.

[Dean]

God I wish I could ask Ant things. I wish there was an Ask Ant column.

[radthemad4]

shadzar: A setting book sounds like a good idea. I think I'll start with Greyhawk as I think that's the most vanilla. As to Tolkien, while Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D with the latter rising from the former, the two are now so estranged that to reunite them would be an act of savage madness.

Chamomile: My main beef with the monster manual is just reading it in alphabetical order feels like trying to learn English by reading a dictionary (granted there's fewer monsters than English words). I love monster books though for when I want more details about a specific monster (just like looking up words in a dictionary).

deanruel87: I actually originally skimmed through the books (and switched to the rules compendium with its better organization later on) as my players were in a hurry to try a game. Going through them properly sounds like a good idea (skimming the rules this time).

brized: Hmm, those are some good points. While my RL players probably won't notice anything (or complain about something not making much sense), I'd like to make the world more plausible nonetheless. Perhaps I could embrace the Star Trek route, with low level planets (or maybe an infinite material plane with low level continents) simply being areas where people haven't discovered high level magic and/or haven't become assimilated by higher level societies yet.

Dogbert and hyzmarca: Well I guess I'll get around to making my own version after examining some of the others. I think I'll go medieval Star Trek, Discworld expy, or something in between.

Koumei: Thanks, but I've already got drug problems, I don't want to add to them.

deanruel87 the 2nd, Electric Boogaloo: Might be worth a shot.

[shadzar]

shadzar: A setting book sounds like a good idea. I think I'll start with Greyhawk as I think that's the most vanilla. As to Tolkien, while Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D with the latter rising from the former, the two are now so estranged that to reunite them would be an act of savage madness.

I don't think they should be put back together. I like D&D as a spinoff of tolkien, but many of the things done in settings to D&D I certainly do not enjoy: Spelljammer, Birthright, Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun...

Just reading any PHB and DMG or MM prior to 4th would give you Greyhawk for the most part, but it is not the vanilla world. It was close, but still gary's weirdness with the aliens, the robots, and the like.

later after Greyhawk and Blackmoor, a team set to create a vanilla D&D world, Mystara. it mostly takes medieval Europe, throws D&D philosophies and monsters and such in, and there you have it. but that would be just generic concept. the foundation. how you build ont that idea to get to ravenloft, planescape, etc is really up to you. thus why many of the oddities of Greyhawk ere removed from core AD&D to give a more generic, but Gary could only write for his world afterall so they bled in anyway.

now Mystara has some weirdness too like Glantri Kingdom of Magic where everyone is a wizard (see Ishmir from the 2000 D&D movie), but it tries to show how those thing might happen in a D&D world.

IF you really want to understand the D&D world, just watch the cartoon series. watch Log Horizon and leave out the MMO parts. Watch SOA and forget the real world parts. or .//hack even. All these take the same idea from the D&D cartoons series which takes from Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. so leave out the fish out of water aspect and each of these an show the spirit of D&D in a way, or Merlin series that recently wnt off the air, the movie Stardust, Maleficent, anything medieval focused should give the spirit of D&D. youjsut through those beholders and stuff like that in to make it into a fantasy game with magic or "sword and sorcery".

[Josh_Kablack]

I find these the most helpful for getting the D&D spirit.

edit: see also RumpleMinz ads and The Wine that works as pre-labelled terrain on your hexgrid

[shadzar]

I find these the most helpful for getting the D&D spirit.

not quite as they wouldn't hold enough mead.

[OgreBattle]

These cartoon map walkthroughs of classic D&D adventure modules showcase the unique spirit of D&D dungeon crawling and the genre they spawned.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/feature.aspx ... e/cartoons

[K]

It's worth noting that D&D has longrunning settings written by many different authors with different visions. And it has crossovers between those settings which were never intended when those settings were created.

Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, R.A. Salvatore's Forgotten Realms, and the Forgotten Realms from that one Spelljammer supplement are seriously not compatible with each other, even though they're supposed to be the same world (Never Mind Zakhara, Maztica, and Kara-Tur, which are supposed to be on the same planet).

The original D&D setting was literally whatever Gary Gygax's friends felt like playing that week. Greyhawk was originally created as an excuse plot for a weekly dungeon crawl and later expanded upon.

There is no default D&D, really. Not in setting and not in tone.

These are true statements.

I tend to see DnD as fundamentally being about a game where crazy shit happens and then you stagger home under the weight of your treasure.

The old Red Box adventure informed a lot of my opinion of DnD where you'd go to a crazy island, explore the old ruins, maybe murder or befriend natives, and then stagger home under the weight of all that treasure. The various variants where people do things like murder mysteries or political intrigue always seemed to be the flimsy excuse you had for crazy shit and loot and you didn't have to care too much about it because the game MTPed those things anyway.

[RobG]

I tend to see DnD as fundamentally being about a game where crazy shit happens and then you stagger home under the weight of your treasure.

.

That's about right.

[radthemad4]

shadzarYeah, started through the PHB now and the chapter on races already mentions Greyhawk deities. I'm guessing bits and pieces of Greyhawk will show up throughout it. I'll take a look at Mystara as well. Thanks for the media suggestions.

Josh_Kablack: Yeah, those are neat.

OgreBattle: Thanks, those are hilarious and I like the art style.

K: Crazy shit and loot. Good advice.

[souran]

The original D&D setting was literally whatever Gary Gygax's friends felt like playing that week. Greyhawk was originally created as an excuse plot for a weekly dungeon crawl and later expanded upon.

Actually, "adventure of the week" is not a bad way to play D&D, or even think of D&D. As other people have said, if you try and assume that the rules really allow for a persistant world to be created where the rules are the physics of the world it will crumble to dust.

D&D doesn't come with a default world at all, there is no default fluff for things to anchor to. That makes it different in ways that are both good and bad. Your flavor of D&D will probably have more to do with how your regular players play than anything we say.

[Mord]

Something that I think is unique to D&D is the notion of stakes constantly increasing within the same character's lifetime/arc. Whereas you might have someone in a Campbellian Hero's Journey where they do their heroing and then become an aged mentor character to the next hero (Obi-Wan), in D&D you just have infinitely escalating power.

Adventures about mortals and mortal concerns (Orcs, kobolds) give way to adventures about immortals (Liches) give way to plane-hopping adventure (Pit Fiends, Illithids) give way to sucker-punching divinities (Lolth, Orcus).

The limitation of levels to 20 is really the only thing that stops power creep. The enforced retirement on 4th ed characters is kind of interesting from that perspective, since it acknowledges the mechanical limitation on stakes rising, but it's also kind of hamfisted.

I consider Gurren Lagann to be a good example of something that gets the concept of raising stakes in an analogous manner to a 1 to 20 D&D campaign.

[shadzar]

Actually, "adventure of the week" is not a bad way to play D&D, or even think of D&D. As other people have said, if you try and assume that the rules really allow for a persistant world to be created where the rules are the physics of the world it will crumble to dust.

D&D doesn't come with a default world at all

you hav a bit of conflict here. you CAN hav a persistant world to play in where the rules are the physics of the world, but there is no deafult world in which that happens. those people thinking there is a default world or that you don't have to make the rules/physics fit the game you want are where the problem lies. D&D is made so that you have a framework and set of tools for common ground on creating a game like stories you have read or seen and get to say "If I were Jack Sparrow, what would I be doing here?"

not only can you ask that question, you can see where it goes form there and take it anywhere you want to take it.

[Username17]

Basically, D&D is a game about being Conquistadors. You go to exotic places that are "unexplored" (but have large amounts of native population), you make friends with everyone you can and stab everyone else. Then they either make you king or you stagger home under the weight of as much treasure as you can carry.

So there is some deeply weird and world changing shit you can do with high end magic in D&D. But that doesn't imply that the world you are going into is defined by those things, because the world you are going into is a badly broken world where these things are just being (re)discovered.

Maybe there was recently a big war that flattened everything (like Eberron or Earthdawn), maybe the stuff you're exploring was until quite recently unreachable (like in the Demon Web Pits or Maztica). Maybe things are just a Tolkien ripoff for no reason (like Forgotten Realms). But whatever it is, the people you're invading may be living in some weird magitech Buck Rogers universe, but the people back home are shell shocked dirt farmers.

But yes: Gurren Lagan is a good example of D&D's crazy leveling system in action. You're playing fantasy skinned Gurren Lagan where the protagonist is a fully sympathetic Cortez.

-Username17

[souran]

Adventures about mortals and mortal concerns (Orcs, kobolds) give way to adventures about immortals (Liches) give way to plane-hopping adventure (Pit Fiends, Illithids) give way to sucker-punching divinities (Lolth, Orcus).

This is a conceit I have found to only be partially true.

While D&D clearly has an increasing scale of villainy where low level characters fight orc warlords, medium level characters fight vampires, high level characters fight dragons and giants, and max level characters fight gods why and how the characters fight these foes is usually pretty much because they are there and has almost nothing to do with mortal/immortal/planar levels of relevance.

Low level characters are just as likely to end up in an elemental plane on their way to the orc warlords camp and there are lots of level 1 adventures where a failure by the heroes would mean a world ending catastrophe. (By the same token, there are lots of high level D&D adventures where the stakes seem almost stupidly low).

Again, the rules, the spells, the pre-written settings all function by narrative convention until the PCs show up. The reason the setting has not melted is because it has not been taken out of its package, not because anything about the game is "steady state" prior to PCs comming on stage.

[souran]

Basically, D&D is a game about being Conquistadors. You go to exotic places that are "unexplored" (but have large amounts of native population), you make friends with everyone you can and stab everyone else. Then they either make you king or you stagger home under the weight of as much treasure as you can carry.

So there is some deeply weird and world changing shit you can do with high end magic in D&D. But that doesn't imply that the world you are going into is defined by those things, because the world you are going into is a badly broken world where these things are just being (re)discovered.

Maybe there was recently a big war that flattened everything (like Eberron or Earthdawn), maybe the stuff you're exploring was until quite recently unreachable (like in the Demon Web Pits or Maztica). Maybe things are just a Tolkien ripoff for no reason (like Forgotten Realms). But whatever it is, the people you're invading may be living in some weird magitech Buck Rogers universe, but the people back home are shell shocked dirt farmers.

But yes: Gurren Lagan is a good example of D&D's crazy leveling system in action. You're playing fantasy skinned Gurren Lagan where the protagonist is a fully sympathetic Cortez.

-Username17

This is a very Gaming Den view and one that assumes a lot of stuff that is common here and basically in no other role playing communities.

Conquistadors were adventuer's, that is true. However, D&D tends less towards the historical version of adventuer's and more towards a "jason and the argonaughts" or "adventures of sinbad" or most honestly when actually played no matter how much the DM wants to make an LOTResque epic, they will tend to play more like Robert E. Howard or Edgar Rice Burrows pulp, where the "heroes" take actions in direct proportion to writer/player wish fullfillment. So a lot fewer heroic speaches and a lot more "badass" posturing.

As for the "wierd shit" that you can do with high level spells, while you can totally do crazy stuff that breaks the game, what spells actually do that highly depends on what your game even is. If you get into a game where you are letting players use magic to construct cities in a day and then letting them extract wealth from those cities then thats probably more broken than a game where building the city is a plot point and then everybody moves on.

[darkmaster]

Again, the rules, the spells, the pre-written settings all function by narrative convention until the PCs show up. The reason the setting has not melted is because it has not been taken out of its package, not because anything about the game is "steady state" prior to PCs comming on stage.

That is a terrible, immersion breaking conceit and exactly why a ton of people don't like 4e. People, most people, don't want NPCs that are just dots on the map that get popped out of existence when the important people leave because the game needs to save memory. They want to be able interact with characters and feel like those characters won't repeat the same script over and over when they keep talking.

D&D is not a video game, and it shouldn't be treated like one. Putting people in the mind set that every NPC you meat is just getting loaded in when they come into site is bad for the game.

[brized]

every NPC you meat is just getting loaded in when they come

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