Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:59 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/d/drea ... /pathOfWar

Is this looking like it's going to be any good? I liked ToB back in 3.x D&D, and if this is basically similar, I might want to pick up the book when it comes out.

I hope so. I just hope they don't suffer an attack of the "Warriors must suck" group of pathfinder fans. I remember how much complaining there was about ToB, even though it hardly made warriors broken.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:05 am

Argh, it's like those assholes at Paizo don't know anything about 3.5.
*They repeated the Adaptive weapon bullshit, this time with feats.
*They repeated the Duskblade "why so crazy few spells on the class list" bullshit with the Witch.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:08 am

I believe there are previews/playtests in their forum.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:22 pm

TiaC wrote:I believe there are previews/playtests in their forum.

There are. The information available is quite extensive. I haven't read over most of it, but here's what I could find lurking around their forums.

The Warlord - (Warblade Equivalent) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3009.html

The Warder - (Crusader Equivalent) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3021.html

The Stalker - (Swordsage Equivalent?) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =2972.html

The Harbinger - http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3210.html

Archtypes + Traditions - http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3075.html

I think there was a list of feats/magic items up for testing too, but apparently didn't get its own thread, so it's either burried in one of those or in the main thread here: http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3066.html

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:50 am

rasmuswagner wrote:Argh, it's like those assholes at Paizo don't know anything about 3.5.
*They repeated the Adaptive weapon bullshit, this time with feats.
*They repeated the Duskblade "why so crazy few spells on the class list" bullshit with the Witch.

The Witch is supposedly balanced by having hexes to do a lot of the workhorse stuff, with patron spells to provide some distinction between different witches. If you don't have a lot of witches in the campaign it works fine.

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:25 am

Witches aren't bad, and even with their limited list they have access to a lot of good spells. I have one witch player in my current game, and with flying, slumber, cackle, evil eye, and her normal spells she has become a nasty opponent for the NPCs.

The only thing you could say against witches is that their number of good options is just very limited, so if you've seen one level 10 witch, you probably know what every level 10 witch looks like. More or less.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:26 pm

rasmuswagner wrote:*They repeated the Duskblade "why so crazy few spells on the class list" bullshit with the Witch.

To be fair, I think they've done a slightly better job at adding new spells to the witch spell list than WotC did at adding new spells to the warmage spell list (for example).

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:37 am

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monste ... -ostiarius

What are some good options for an Ostiarius with 4 PC levels and level 8 NPC wealth? Shadowdancer looks flavorful, but a little redundant.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:45 pm

Seerow wrote:
TiaC wrote:I believe there are previews/playtests in their forum.
There are. The information available is quite extensive. I haven't read over most of it, but here's what I could find lurking around their forums.

The Warlord - (Warblade Equivalent) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3009.html

The Warder - (Crusader Equivalent) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3021.html

The Stalker - (Swordsage Equivalent?) http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =2972.html

The Harbinger - http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3210.html

Archtypes + Traditions - http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3075.html

I think there was a list of feats/magic items up for testing too, but apparently didn't get its own thread, so it's either burried in one of those or in the main thread here: http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... =3066.html

While Warlord and Stalker fit their archetype, the Warder is not a Crusader He buffs others not himself.
The Crusader shtick was he doesn't go down. Remember Delayed Damage pool, etc. Warder doesn't get that.

I really like Deadly Strike, adding an Art so it works vs flatfooted helps, but the fact that after one Crit or 1 Ki, you works on all attacks is nice (for a duration).

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:37 am

So went to a local con on the weekend and played: Pathfinder Society Scenario #5–16: Destiny of the Sands—Part 3: Sanctum of the Sages (PFRPG) PDF

Worst "adventure" ever.
Mary Sue wizard, pages of NPC monologue, badbadbad chase scenes.
And mythic crap all over it. Which was a pity as the first two parts were decent, if uninspired, stock standard adventure fair.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:21 am

Warlord is a good name for someone that buffs others, mostly because of MTG so I associate 'lord' with "makes other dudes bigger"

For a Warblade equivalent with 'war' in the name, Warmaster would sound good as he has a mastery of fancy fightin' techniques.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:43 am

Blasted wrote:So went to a local con on the weekend and played: Pathfinder Society Scenario #5–16: Destiny of the Sands—Part 3: Sanctum of the Sages (PFRPG) PDF

Worst "adventure" ever.
Mary Sue wizard, pages of NPC monologue, badbadbad chase scenes.
And mythic crap all over it. Which was a pity as the first two parts were decent, if uninspired, stock standard adventure fair.

Man, those chase rules are shit.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:01 am

Those chase rules ARE shit. It is impressive to the degree that those chase rules are bad. I could not make a product that artfully terrible.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:06 am

deanruel87 wrote:Those chase rules ARE shit. It is impressive to the degree that those chase rules are bad. I could not make a product that artfully terrible.

You never know until you try.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:08 am

Speaking of chases: I'm reminded of this article.
It's 10 pages of meandering, is a middle article of a multi-part series, and talks about a bunch of other stuff .... but I thought that the meat of it was pretty good (not to mention I find him entertaining to read)

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:55 pm

It's sort of accumulated over time, but I hadn't realized how much so until I was making a new character. Pathfinder character creation is really front-loaded, choice-wise.

At first level, you:
1) Pick a race.
2) Pick from of the dozens of alternate racial features.
3) Pick a class.
4) Pick from the dozens of archetypes. Sometimes your class features (like Familiars) have their own archetypes.
5) Also, many classes have another 'select something' feature with dozens of options, like Sorcerer bloodlines.
6) Based on your race, you have a third option for the favored class bonus. Which probably should have been a consideration in step 1, I guess.
7) Pick traits. As with everything PF, there are hundreds of them, and the majority are crap, but there are a few really good ones in there. Have fun dumpster diving!
8) Oh yeah, and you can also take a flaw for a third trait.
9) Pick feats, same deal, more dumpster diving.

That's not even including ability scores, skills, and equipment, which are pretty much the same as 3E.

So you have a fuckload of decisions up front, and then (depending on class), maybe barely any after that. Not ideal, IMO.

Adam Reith · Post by **Adam Reith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:33 pm

New user here -- a refugee from the Paizo boards. The level of stupid of some of the "discourse" is brain-shattering... I just couldn't take it anymore. And when the actual game designers hold high-level martials to what sedentary real-life geeks can easily do without practice, you know it can't end well.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:36 pm

Ice9 wrote: 7) Pick traits. As with everything PF, there are hundreds of them, and the majority are crap, but there are a few really good ones in there. Have fun dumpster diving!

Are traits considered core for all games now? I always thought that was an optional subsystem.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:45 pm

The games I've been in have used them, at least.
"Flaw for a third trait" is less commonly used, although I don't know if that's because the GMs in question would actually disallow it, or just nobody knew about it - I just stumbled on it recently.

Speaking of traits, they're a strange mix of "half a feat" (which is what they theoretically are), "totally worthless", and "actually better than any feat".

I think I have discovered Paizo's design methodology though:
1) Every possible piece of description about a character should have a selectable widget attached to it.
2) Put some mechanics on those widgets - any mechanics. Don't try to actually balance it, just make it kinda weak so it probably won't overpower things.
3) Since they don't understand balance, "kinda weak" will actually range from "pathetic" to "way better than they probably intended".

Now on the plus side, enough monkeys, shakespeare, etc. By which I mean that if you're willing to sort through the mountain of chaff, there are some individual feats/spells/whatever that are actually interesting and usable.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:59 pm

Ice9 wrote: Now on the plus side, enough monkeys, shakespeare, etc. By which I mean that if you're willing to sort through the mountain of chaff, there are some individual feats/spells/whatever that are actually interesting and usable.

At this point my #1 request is to actually remove the garbage from the SRD, so there's less sorting through a bunch of useless crap.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:41 pm

Adam Reith wrote:New user here -- a refugee from the Paizo boards. The level of stupid of some of the "discourse" is brain-shattering... I just couldn't take it anymore. And when the actual game designers hold high-level martials to what sedentary real-life geeks can easily do without practice, you know it can't end well.

Welcome to the Den!

Adam Reith · Post by **Adam Reith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:02 pm

Wiseman wrote:Welcome to the Den!

Thanks! I've lurked here before, but never posted until now. Something just clicked -- the stuff I read here can get aggressive, but it generally makes sense. The stuff I read there now just makes me want to drown myself.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:31 pm

As far as I've seen, traits are just an accepted part of the game, and every game I've played or indeed witnessed character creation for, it's just automatically assumed (occasionally stated outright) you get two.

I wasn't aware of the flaw-for-a-third though.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:38 pm

Blasted wrote:Which was a pity as the first two parts were decent, if uninspired, stock standard adventure fair.

Uninspried stock standard adventure describes 90% of PFS scenarios.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:35 am

When I looked at traits thinking about making a PFS character, I was pretty neutral on it.

When I looked at traits again for my character for Rad's game (so far as I could tell they were just part of chargen) I was a bit more intrigued since I could turn them into an extra magic missile (two separate +1 CL traits) on a chasis of Koumei's Warmage class.

On the other hand, if I were going into a PFS game, I'd take the two "+900 starting gold" traits (Chosen Child, Rich Parents) unless I were a caster, in which case I'd just select 3 "+x caster level" traits. Probably for a scalable cantrip, if possible.

Edit: Adam, if you could take a look at the stuff I'm planning on publishing for Pathfinder, I'd appreciate the eye of someone who knows the system.