Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:47 pm

Season 4 of Buffy sucked because they blank-slated every bit of possible conflict after season 3.

The Mayor, who'd been orchestrating things for years, is gone. Spike's gone (and when he comes back he's been wussified.) Angel's gone. Snyder and Cordelia are gone. Even Joyce is now fine with Buffy being a Slayer.

In their place we get a shadowy organization that would be scary except that they're allies of the gang for most of the season (and at their worst they're misguided, not evil), a boring-as-fuck Generic McHero love interest for Buffy, and the blandest big bad ever (and I use "big" sparingly - there were joke monsters of the week more frightening than Adam.)

And just to make things worse, you have Hush in the middle of the season, reminding you just how great season 2 and 3 were.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:31 am

I think there are a lot of good episodes in Buffy Season 4. However, the love interest Riley is really weak, and they got rid of Oz in a way that was stupid and insulting. Willow going lesbian should have been neat, but having her do it in a way that specifically hurt Oz and having him walk out of the show crying just made her look like a shitty person. They should have had an amicable and permanent breakup before she got a girlfriend. As is, Willow just comes off as unlikable in season 4, which is a feat.

Riley isn't an interesting character. Dr. Walsh isn't an interesting villain. Adam isn't an interesting villain either.

But mostly I think the problem was that despite the abundance of Santa Cruz jokes (one of the writers went to school in my home town), the college transition never really gelled. The Scoobies never got a coherent college plan and never really felt like they had a complete college thing going.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:06 am

So, I've caught up on Order of the Stick after letting it slow burn for awhile.

Look, I know that very few people want to write or read about a comic where the plot twist is basically 'surprise! Because the characters in your RPG Mechanics Verse optimized really poorly they died at the end of the second act. So much for usefulness and tactics!' but one of the more annoying things about the comic is how Burlew pretty much waves the characters' plot armor in your face. What should have been an exciting arc has pretty much dragged because the author feels compelled to show that there are ways to resolve things other than 'caster v. caster' fight in high-level D&D and even then has had to lean on it.

At this point I just don't give a fuck about Tarquin anymore because with the slow update schedule and the repeated banging up against plot armor/plot-induced stupidity it's just obvious that he's a filler villain.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:58 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I think there are a lot of good episodes in Buffy Season 4. However, the love interest Riley is really weak, and they got rid of Oz in a way that was stupid and insulting. Willow going lesbian should have been neat, but having her do it in a way that specifically hurt Oz and having him walk out of the show crying just made her look like a shitty person. They should have had an amicable and permanent breakup before she got a girlfriend. As is, Willow just comes off as unlikable in season 4, which is a feat.

I don't know. I think establishing Willow as a person with deep-seated anger and control issues that she buries until they explode was one of the season's better contributions to the show. And it certainly set the stage for what could have been a very moving domestic abuse plot in season 6 (Willow using mind control to make Tara forget their fights is really horrible and should have been treated as such) that was instead dropped for a shitty and nonsensical drug addiction metaphor.

But mostly I think the problem was that despite the abundance of Santa Cruz jokes (one of the writers went to school in my home town), the college transition never really gelled. The Scoobies never got a coherent college plan and never really felt like they had a complete college thing going.

-Username17

And that is a good point. It's kind of telling that they completely dropped college and forgot about it in season 5. Season 4 should have been the beginning of a new multi-season arc, but they really dropped the ball. Angel did might better at the same time.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:30 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:I think there are a lot of good episodes in Buffy Season 4. However, the love interest Riley is really weak, and they got rid of Oz in a way that was stupid and insulting. Willow going lesbian should have been neat, but having her do it in a way that specifically hurt Oz and having him walk out of the show crying just made her look like a shitty person. They should have had an amicable and permanent breakup before she got a girlfriend. As is, Willow just comes off as unlikable in season 4, which is a feat.
I don't know. I think establishing Willow as a person with deep-seated anger and control issues that she buries until they explode was one of the season's better contributions to the show. And it certainly set the stage for what could have been a very moving domestic abuse plot in season 6 (Willow using mind control to make Tara forget their fights is really horrible and should have been treated as such) that was instead dropped for a shitty and nonsensical drug addiction metaphor.

Yeah, I don't think they ever really explained why they were treating it as a drug. I suppose the answer is "laziness and a need for something approaching 'a very special episode of Buffy'," but honestly, I think if a person could perform magic like Willow did, they fucking would. People are lazy (as evidenced by the show writers), so of course they're going to use magic to make their lives easier.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:39 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So, I've caught up on Order of the Stick after letting it slow burn for awhile.

Look, I know that very few people want to write or read about a comic where the plot twist is basically 'surprise! Because the characters in your RPG Mechanics Verse optimized really poorly they died at the end of the second act. So much for usefulness and tactics!' but one of the more annoying things about the comic is how Burlew pretty much waves the characters' plot armor in your face. What should have been an exciting arc has pretty much dragged because the author feels compelled to show that there are ways to resolve things other than 'caster v. caster' fight in high-level D&D and even then has had to lean on it.

The odd (or annoying) thing about that tendency towards other resolutions is that shit drags on like a fucking dragon ball Z arc. And then it comes down to the casters anyway, which leads directly to the current comics: they've been beating on Tarquin for fucking ever at this point, and V almost sweeps him with a single spell, only to be foiled by the psion, which leads directly into full-casters getting into it while everyone else takes a break or sits on their ass, because even Burlew has to accept that they aren't relevant anymore.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:08 am

I wanted to like Elysium, I really did - particularly after enjoying District 9 as much as I did. But despite all the exceptionally well-done action, some of the plot stuff just really destroyed my suspension of disbelief. (Spoilers)

Elysium Defense Secretary: "Hi, I'd like to openly and without preamble incite you to commit a coup in a very direct and visible way in exchange for some money."
Armadyne CEO: "I like money."

Armadyne CEO: "Welp, I've finished writing my treason.exe program! I'd better encrypt it with a virus that kills anyone who steals it, but only after they finish uploading it to a system. Instead of killing them when they download it in the first place. Or just corrupting the data. This EvilOS Service Contract EULA really restricts my options, I tell you."

Nutball Mercenary: "Man! It sure was a tough road to complete that assignment that was going to give me everything I wanted, but I successfully did so! Meh, you know what, I'm going to stab my boss and make a short-sighted grab for power with just me and my two buddies here, despite having absolutely no plan or in-character motivation to do so!"
Defense Secretary: "Oh god, you've stabbed me! And provided me sound medical advice while conveying me rapidly to a healthcare professional! Meh, you know what, I'm going to refuse treatment and die even though I was mere moments away from the fruition of all my plans that I worked for dozens of years to accomplish! It's a good thing I had no characterization to explain this act, or it might have made sense!"

President: "There's the terrorists that are compromising our critical infrastructure! Arrest them!"
Droid: "Sorry sir, I can't arrest citizens. Even though they might commit crimes or otherwise behave in a manner that would be consistent with their arrest."
President: "Well I guess that explains how three dudes with small arms were able to take over the most critical facility in human civilization completely unopposed. Maybe we should have some kind of laws that allow us to maintain a peacekeeping force that has the authority to act in any way against internal threats?"
Droid: "DOES NOT COMPUTE"

Elysium Computer: "BILLIONS OF SICK HUMANS DETECTED. DEPLOYING SHUTTLES TO AUTOMATICALLY MAKE EVERYTHING ON EARTH BETTER."
Basic logic of logistics and large numbers: "Too bad for every person you cure, five will die while waiting in the queue! Since, you know, the entire way we could provide a perfect environment for the rich was to use the unequal distribution of wealth to give the owners of capital disproportionate access to the total resources of humanity."
Plot: "EXECUTING HAPPY_ENDING.EXE"

Maybe I'm just a Grumpy Gus, but come on. When Justin Timberlake makes a more believable wealth-disparity-centric dystopian film than you, that's not a success. That's that thing that's the opposite of success. I think it rhymes with "mailure".

echo

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:27 am

Elysium had a garbage plot. Very pretty though. I slot it in the same category of movies as Avatar (not the one with airbenders).

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:42 am

I would watch an Avatar/Avatar crossover movie.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:48 am

So long as neither Cameron or Shyamalamadingdong go anywhere near it. Can we have Guillermo Del Toro do it?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:19 am

Voss wrote:The odd (or annoying) thing about that tendency towards other resolutions is that shit drags on like a fucking dragon ball Z arc. And then it comes down to the casters anyway, which leads directly to the current comics: they've been beating on Tarquin for fucking ever at this point, and V almost sweeps him with a single spell, only to be foiled by the psion, which leads directly into full-casters getting into it while everyone else takes a break or sits on their ass, because even Burlew has to accept that they aren't relevant anymore.

At this point I'm actually hoping that Tarquin makes good on his threat to kill off the Order of the Stick and mutilate Elan. Not because I think that he's OMG SOOOOOO COOOOL or anything -- the author has both intentionally and unintentionally painted him as a tool -- but because it would be a way to shake the comic out of the rut that it's been in. The core cast really, really does need a huge shake-up. Only Elan and Vaarsuvius really have a compelling narrative reason to exist these days. Everyone else either can't advance the plot on their own terms (everyone but Durkon and V) and/or don't have much of a character to develop anymore (everyone else but Roy and V, and even the former is starting to become flat).

Then again, unless Burlew pulls something huge out of his ass, there really isn't enough time to undo the damage before the comic ends. I wouldn't count him out yet, because the author does have a rare talent talent of crafting meaningful and sensible plot twists. I have been pleasantly surprised by this numerous times. But I wouldn't blame him for just limply heading towards the finish line with what he already has. It's safe and he can just coast with jokes and the few good characters he actually has remaining.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:43 pm

Lone Ranger:

I probably said something about this when the movie came out, and after a repeat viewing at home (it wasn't my idea), the movie's problems came back into focus.

See, I really, really liked the start of that movie. On the whole, anyway. The ambush, the guy being a Wendigo (and eating a heart), the Lone Ranger coming back from death. But it shows a lot of meddling, especially with the slapstick action scenes and abandoning the wendigo plot in exchange for "Tonto is crazy and makes up things in his head".

I really wish they hadn't done that. I also was prepared to concede the Ranger's insistence on a bringing criminals in for a lawful trial as an admirable character trait, something worth respecting.

If only the movie respected that, with its constant "Doh ho ho, that's so silly and weak out here in the west". Yeah, real great way to make a cool hero.

The beginning belongs to a totally different movie, and it didn't get fucked with as hard as the rest, it feels like. If the wendigo had been captured and actually hanged, could have had a reanimation scene as a stinger and set up a sequel where the Ranger has to deal more with the fact that he's not entirely natural, either.

Speaking of, I would have had the Ranger get shot in the heart and spend a couple of days out while he regenerates and wake up to find out that, yeah, he is unkillable by violence, but he can still be hurt, can still lose time in recovery so it's best not to count on his immunity to death.

The Lone Ranger could have been a good movie. Instead, we go...well...that damn mess.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:13 pm

Dammit, Maxus, now you're making me pine for a movie based on Dead Man's Hand.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:39 pm

Well, we all know that the best Johnny Depp western was Dead Man.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:41 pm

The Lone Ranger was a mess of storytelling and presentation. Just for starters: the character has a piece of classical music that is deeply associated with him. If you play the William Tell Overture by Rossini, people immediately think "The Lone Ranger." That's invaluable. You have better music than 99% of movies pre-written for you, because if you are a movie composer and your name isn't John Williams you aren't fit to shine Rossini's shoes. So, obviously you need to use the William Tell Overture as the main character's leitmotif. Obviously. Instead, they played the entire twelve minute piece a bit after the two hour mark in the movie after it had already failed to be established as the hero's theme song by not playing it when the hero was doing shit for the previous two fucking hours of the fucking film.

Secondly, the heros don't actually win in that film. The goal was supposed to be to stop the Comanche and US Cavalry from killing each other. They don't actually do that. All those people do in fact murder each other for nothing. The supposed victory is killing the villain, but it's actually after he's already succeeded at all his evil and is just driving away to retire. All the property damage incurred in taking him out (and it's a lot) is actually completely pointless, because the only reason the rail bridge was bad was because a bunch of innocent people had to be killed to make it. Once they are already dead, the rail bridge is just a bridge and is actually a good thing. Blowing it up then is actually bad.

Thirdly, walking back the magic was jumbled and incoherent storytelling. The main character has a fucking premonition when he touches the cursed rock. Magic is real in the story, the end. There is no reason to try to make the audience question whether the magic is real or not, because you already showed them it was directly through the fourth wall when you showed the premonition sequence. At that point the only question is what cool things magic is going to do in your story, not whether it exists or not. Fuck.

But primarily, the main character needs to be doing cool and heroic things fifteen minutes into the movie, max. Having him still be a fuckup more than an hour into the movie is a huge pacing problem. And attempting to show that he's "really the Lone Ranger now" after two fucking hours have passed is just bullshit.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:05 pm

This is more of a general storytelling complaint than anything, but since Lone Ranger and Order of the Stick and other series mentioned on this front page have this problem, this is as good of a place as any:

Why are writers so adverse to giving their heroes meaningful victories between the beginning of the quest and the final arc? I know that a lot of writers want to pile on a lot of obstacles and setbacks and shit on the heroes so that their final victory will look even more impressive. Spider-Man taking down Dr. Doom through his wits and vigor (theoretically) has a cool factor that Superman doing so doesn't even if the end result is the same. It's more impressive if Spider-Man had to learn the lessons needed to take down Dr. Doom by fighting his minions and dismantling a Doombot and having to undergo a training montage. Moreover, there are a lot more writers who can't ever bring themselves to make their heroes fail in any minor or even meaningful way. So the temptation is even greater.

But the thing is, aside from the fact that too many losses or Pyrrhic victories or draws alienates the audience, Act 1 and 2 victories are there to give the hero's journey credibility. Yes, compared to saving the world from destruction the fact that you weren't able to overthrow an organized crime ring or save your village from being burned to the ground or help the underground resistance overthrow the dictatorship is small potatoes. But if the heroes have a constant string of fuck-ups ranging from putting their band together to the climax, it makes their victory look like a deus ex machina or plot-induced stupidity and robs it of any meaning. These bunglers just got their asses handed to them by the king's guard 30 minutes ago (which led to said king being able to sacrifice his daughter) and now we're supposed to believe that they can take on the demon king that came through the sacrificial portal?

We can buy the Order saving the world because they freed a continent from a shadow government conspiracy. We can buy that because they helped organize a successful defense of one of the greatest cities. We can buy that because they disbanded a notorious bandit troupe. And we can buy that because they rescued some farmers from kidnappers. Of course there's a lot of ways to spin that; people get bored with constant victories so you'll have to introduce some alternate win condition/some between-climax victory/ridiculous power-up to preserve heroic momentum while also maintaining tension. But if you want us to cheer at the heroes' greatest moment rather than roll our eyes and go 'author's pet', you need to have those intermediate victories.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:00 pm

as far the Order of the Stick goes yeah this arc has definitely been the weakest so far. Partly because it dragged on to a ridiculous degree, spanning ~270 strips instead of the ~180 of the arc 2-4.

Edit: regarding Lagos point, yeah you can't have the heroes always lose, but the big bad at least should have one major victory over the heroes by the final confrontation otherwise they aren't a credible threat.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:04 pm

Grek wrote:I would watch an Avatar/Avatar crossover movie.

Fire Nation invading Pandora or RDA landing on the Avatar Planet?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:56 pm

Why are writers so adverse to giving their heroes meaningful victories between the beginning of the quest and the final arc?

There are two stories. They both posit innumerable problems facing the protagonist. One of them has everything go sour and we call it a tragedy. The other has everything turn out well and we call it a comedy. These days, almost everything is comedy.

But people still want to write tragedies. So they do. It's entertaining, having things go bad for other people, especially if they're sympathetic (but also if they're not). Watch the news some time, it's usually still focused on tragedy.

So why no meaningful victories? They're writing a tragedy. It's just going to have a happy ending tacked on. Like the "cute puppy has a nice family now" story at the end of the horrific tragedy that is the daily news.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:17 am

Well, the complaints I wrote up don't really apply for intentional tragedies. I have no problems with tragedies or stories that end up in Pyrrhic victories -- rather, I was dissecting the pattern of 'hero starts journey, gets a long string of meaningless, costly, and/or non-victories, then has a huge win at the end of their story' that I see in a lot of stories that aren't meant to be tragedies. You know, stuff like Naruto, Order of the Stick, apparently the Lone Ranger, most of the Final Fantasies, etc.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:25 am

It's usually either marking time without having to escalate things quickly or writers getting stuck on the "Challenges and Temptations" part of the Hero's Journey.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:18 am

Why aren't they "meant to be" tragedies? OOTS is a great tragedy, everything they touch is poisoned and the only successes are short-term and ultimately reversed into greater failures. Yes, they're "great heroes saving the world" or whatever, but their story, what happens along the way, it's a tragedy.

You're assuming they'll have a great victory at the end. They probably will too (because puppies). But meanwhile, Rich Berlew is writing a tragedy. They failed at the first gate. They failed at the second gate. They destroyed the third gate themselves out of fear of failure. Everyone they care for suffers and dies. They suffer (and die).

So your argument seems to be that tragedies shouldn't have happy endings. That the news should not run fluffy dog stories at the end. Well, research says that most people like their tragedies to have happy endings, even if smart people can see that blowing up the bridge isn't really all that happy after all.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:25 am

I think the reason for failure until the grand finale is the underdog factor. People like to cheer for the underdog, but it's a fad that's been taken a little too far.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:26 am

The greatest tragedies are not the ones where the heroes fail outright all the freaking time. The greatest tragedies are the ones where the heroes win consistently, but their little personal flaws add up to make their victories more and more hollow until they're left with nothing in the end.

Look at The Shield. Vic Mackey never lost. He ended up completely miserable, trapped in a job he hated, with no fiends and no family. But he never once lost.

It's just that, in winning, he sacrificed all the things that mattered to him.

Just look at Paris of Troy. The guy found out that he was secretly a prince. Was welcomed with open arms by his lost family. Was given a boon by the gods. And banged the hottest chick in the world.

And then his entire kingdom was destroyed and his family slaughtered because the hottest chick in the world's husband took umbrage.

Edit: Fuck, the archetypical tragedy is Oedipus.

Oedius won everything. When he was crippled as a baby and left to die someone found him and took him in. Eventually, he was adopted by a king. When a guy insults him on the road he gets into a fight and kills the guy. Win. He beats the sphinx. He gets the girl. He gets the kingdom. He wins completely and totally.

You know, except for the fact that the girl is his biological mother. But he had absolutely no way of knowing that. Or the fact that the guy he killed in anger on the road was his (pretty assholish, really) biological father.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:08 am

Mob fiction hits a lot of the same notes--you can "win," sure, but to do so you climb a wall made up of dead friends and pure cynicism, just so you can be crowned King of the Assholes.