So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!

[Voss]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... r][br]"You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might still be alive."

CLASS TRAITS

Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma

Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier

Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)

Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.

As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all.

With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?

ROGUE OVERVIEW

Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep that advantage over your foes. You are a master of skills, from Stealth and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.

Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues often favor Lolth or Zehir.

Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.

Creating a Rogue

The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds, one relying on bluffs and feints, the other on brute strength. Dexterity, Charisma, and Strength are the rogue’s most important ability scores.

Brawny Rogue
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score, particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build. Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack a lot of damage into every punch.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target
Trickster Rogue
You like powers that deceive and misdirect your foes. You dart in and out of the fray in combat, dodging your enemies’ attacks or redirecting them to other foes. Most of your attack powers rely on Dexterity, so that should be your best ability score. Charisma is important for a few attacks, for Charisma-based skills you sometimes use in place of attacks, and for other effects that depend on successful attacks, so make Charisma your second-best score. Strength is useful if you want to choose powers intended for the other rogue build. Select the artful dodger rogue tactic. Look for powers that take advantage of your high Charisma score, as well as those that add to your trickster nature.

Suggested Feat: Backstabber (Human feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Suggested Encounter Power: Positioning Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Trick Strike
Rogue Class Features

All rogues share these class features.

First Strike
At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.

Rogue Tactics
Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to overcome their enemies.

Choose one of the following options.

Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier against opportunity attacks.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to your Strength modifier.
The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics selection has on them.

Rogue Weapon Talent
When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size. When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.

Level Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th +2d6
11th–20th +3d6
21st–30th +5d6
Rogue Powers

Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning, agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.

Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.


Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy howl in pain.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.


Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies.

Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.

Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.


Crimson Edge
Rogue Attack 9
You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill.

Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.
[/quote]

[Voss]

My thoughts-
OK. Lots of crunch. Very good.

The class itself, and some observations.

Armor Training. Ouch. No options.

Weapons. Uh-huh. Thats a short list. I wondered how they would differentiate between the various weapons. This suggests that many went away. And... wow, color me displeased that a rogues melee options are daggers or shortswords. Light mace, club, sap, slashing weapons? I'll come back to this.

Class bonuses- interesting. Just reflex. So a first level rogue has a Bab of 0, Fort of 10 and Wil of 10. (maybe 1/11/11, I suppose) Hmm. Need to see more to know if this is good or bad.

Hit points. 12+Con score and then 5/level. Con score makes a big difference at level one, but no per level reins the hit points in a lot. Interesting. Caps out at around 60-70 at level 10, 110-120 at level 20, 160-170 at level 30.
Healing Surges- interesting. Wow, is Con important. Be nice to know for certain if this was per day. I suspect so, since 6+ per encounter would just be stupid. I wonder how much you get back...

Trained skills. 6 of 10, total. No int bonus. Initiative doesn't seem to be a skill, unless its covered under insight in some way (which I doubt since we see it on all the monster previews). I really, really dislike the fact that 2 are chosen for you, and yes, before any one else says it, it could be houseruled, but I dislike the design decision that (and the limited choices of weapons) implies. A rogue is a very limited definition now. Also, why are stealth and thievery listed again?

Build Options- not sure how I feel about this, it again, feels really limited. I think I see some of what will happen in PH II to X, however. (And martial [or whatever] power). Class X will get additional builds Y and Z.


Class Features-

First Strike. Ok. Good way to do this, I suppose. It implies that most people get no bonuses for winning initiative, however, which is potentially boring.

Rogue Tactics. Hmm. The builds again. I think the bonuses to powers are more significant than the base effects. Artful dodger (heh) looks like it ate mobility, unless things are going to stack excessively. The base bonus for brutality may come up more often, especially since there is that tumble power later.

Weapon talents- Ouch, even worse on the 'you will take the weapons we give you and like it' scale. daggers and shuriken, close combat is apparently what you're required to do. Crossbow if you need to snipe.

Sneak Attack- ouch. Damage curve is much lower than I thought strikers would have. (except at first and second level, where its significantly higher, with the powers and all, than 3e rogues can manage). And even if you do learn how to use more weapons, they don't qualify for use with this class feature. I'm not liking these developer imposed limitations. Reminds me too much of the 1e short list of things you are permitted to backstab with. On the upside, no stupid range limitation. Too bad you can't use bows... But, until we see more, I don't know that this damage is too low for 4e. A brute can really stack up some damage. weapon +str +dex +2d6 +str again on several of the at will and encounter powers, assuming he has combat advantage. That isn't bad. Its also notable that even if you can get multiple attacks, sneak attack is once per round.


Powers- Deft Strike
Move and attack is nice, partly when combined with a normal move action, or the tumble power, which effectively allows you to slip throw the front line and attack people in the back of the group. Essentially normal damage + dex. Pretty good for an at will power... not much point in attacking normally. the doubling normal damage [W] (explained in the paladin smite article as normal damage die, normal bonuses strength, 1/2 level, enhancement) at 21 is... interesting. more so that it doesn't double at 11 and triple at 21. Essentially eats weapon finesse, by the way, as do most of these.

Piercing strike... took me a moment but, ooo, nice. A rogue never has to care about armor with at will attacks. Thats good.

Positioning strike. OK. Nice, but... shifting targets isn't provoking AoOs from your friends. Don't like the Dodger ability with <cha mod> squares. You can't do less? Eh. And why is it will defense? You can shift a giant easier than a wizard? Flavor wise, that seems wrong. And you must be using a light blade, which.. isn't going to help. You can't even do this bare-handed which really seems wrong.

Tumble-
this is good, mostly. If you can get a movement of 8, its *really* good, because then you never have to enter the threatened area of someone with no reach. If you have a movement of 4 or 5... not so good. Dwarves and halflings may lose out on one of the more interesting abilities.

Crimson Edge is just nasty, unless they make their save, afterwards, and then it doesn't matter. Its notable that by the wording, you still gain combat advantage even if you miss (missing just means half damage and no ongoing damage, which unless there is a caveat in the actual rules, doesn't include the combat advantage).


So, thoughts. Largely good crunch. I dislike the areas where the developers stepped in and made decrees (the short weapon and armor list, the light blade requirement for every melee attack, and pre-selecting two of your six skills for you. And positioning strike's flavor is wrong in every single way.

Don't really like the lack of additional skills based on intelligence. It makes me wonder what INT is for. CON and DEX certainly have uses for everyone... And there don't seem to be any int based skills for the rogue. Guess what there dump stat is? Don't much care for that flavor either. While its fine to have rogues that aren't geniuses, I don't like they get absolutely *nothing* for being intelligent.

So apart from the devs intruding overmuch on character creation... I think I largely like the mechanics. I am intrigued by the possibility (with class training) of doing a Vlad Taltos type character, and I don't even think I have to ignore anything to do it. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to do a club wielding street thug with no training in stealth or locks & traps, and that does bother me. Especially with brutality being a class subrole...

[Imban]

I'm really not digging the ultra-limited weapon selection (I thought we left that behind in 2e) or melee attacks against Will defense. The former because it's lame and limiting, the latter because it falls into the category of Things That Just Don't Make Sense to me.

[Voss]

Yeah, I would have made positioning strike fortitude based. You can literally shove a Colossal monster around, too.


Oh, on the save thing in that last power, for people who may or may not know. Saves are different now. For/Ref/Wil are defenses and you roll against them. Saving throws are only for ongoing effects- each round you roll a d20. On a 11+ the effect ends. 20 ends all effects on you. Its notable that the pit fiend, a level 26 monster, gets a whopping +2 to these rolls.

[Talisman]

I think Positioning Strike is less about shoving people around and more about tricking them into moving...to use the giant example, you leave an "opening," the giant moves to exploit it, and when he's off balance you duck, dive and roll...the giant stumbles into a different place.

What's with the weird curve on Sneak Attack? 2d6 for 10 levels, then +1d6 for another 10 levels, and +2d6 for the last 10. WTF?

Hit points are big compared to 3.5 rogue...equal to a 22 Con at 1st level (base 6 +6), but only about a 14 Con at higher levels (average 3.5 +2).

I don't really like "the tricky rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds." Why not design the "tricky" and "brawny" abilities such that you can pick and choose? Why can't I have a strong tricky rogue, or a clever brawny rogue?

"Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)"

Note that your two "trained skills" also appear on the list of optional picks. Does one get extra benefits from double-specializing, one wonders?

Yeah, the "you'll take these weapons and like 'em, dammit!" thing is just...stupid.

[JonSetanta]

They kept weapon proficiencies.
Those douchebags.

An interesting detail: HP is a large bunch of +12 at first, with only 1 application of CON bonus.
Then it tapers off quickly to +5 each later level.

SAGA.

[Voss]

Sigma- thats CON *score*, not bonus. I made that mistake the first time, too.

Talisman- you can pick and choose powers that are brawny or tricky or whatever, as you like. Its just that you get basic bonus and bonuses to certain powers

Someone came up with a theory for the repeat of the 'required' class skills, that its useful if you take class-training while in another class. If they weren't listed, you might not have access to those skills. So it makes a little sense at least.

On the HP front. Hmm.
rogue with 14 con
3e
1st level- 8. 5th- 30. 10th- 58. 20- 113
4e
1st level- 26. 5th- 46. 10th- 61. 20th- 111

If you project the 3e character out to 30 to match the 4e
30th- 168 (3e), 166 (4e)
Its only significantly higher at low levels, then it rolls back down. In a way, its kind of nice, since it doesn't represent such a huge jump. Its a much smoother progression, which, if they do the math right in other areas, will make the game less stupid. And, in theory, no con boosting through magic or items. So, less hit points really.
And if Con is more than 14, its even more significant. At 20th level, a rogue with an 18 con has 40 more hit points in 3e, but only 4 more hitpoints in 4e. While a rogue with an 8 con only has 6 fewer hitpoints, while the 3e rogue has 60 less.


I am really disliking the fact that the intelligent rogue archetype is gone and dead. Int is now your dump stat, and you get, mechanically, nothing for putting points in Int. Absolutely jack squat.

[Cynic]

and this is what i get for not reading most 4e related posts.

30 levels -- what the eff?

[Leress]

Okay, I see they are having hp progression like in "The game of thrones" d20 version.

[Voss]

Yeah, it goes to 30 now. On the other hand, epic no longer means mindbogglingly stupid.

And because I've gotten use to it, the Enworld discussion.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... br][br]Its a fair bit more intelligent today, largely because hong and mourn haven't attacked the thread yet. Though people are already jumping on the 'theres probably more information we haven't seen yet', and I'm resisting the urge to say 'No shit'. I can't be bothered to react to unknowns.

[Talisman]

1203739262[/unixtime]]and this is what i get for not reading most 4e related posts.

30 levels -- what the eff?

Epic is core now! Doesn't that make you want to dance through the streets flinging confetti in the air and singing at the top of your lungs?

Me either.

There are three "tiers" in 4e: Heroic (1st-10th level), Paragon (11th-20th level) and Epic (21st-30th level). What they call levels 31+ is anyone's guess.

[Imban]

1203742003[/unixtime]]What they call levels 31+ is anyone's guess.

That's the "Does Not Exist, Not Ever" tier. In fact, it's been revealed that when you gain past level 30, your character is automatically retired from the game in a way appropriate to his chosen Epic Destiny.

[Voss]

They haven't yet. They've mentioned epic destinies, where you retired as archmages or demigods or whatever, but 4e epic isn't 3e epic. Its almost like they stretched 1-6 to 1-10, 7-12 to 11-20 and 13+ to 21+.

Ninja'd!

[virgil]

It looks like the rogue will never just 'attack', but piercing strike every round. Does this mean that barring the DM going narrativist on his players, players are going to act like monsters and not actually be able to do anything to their world if it's not directly spamming their "sinister strike" button; in that if it's not a special class/feat ability, they can't do it?

Damage is going to be interesting. The rogue will be doing, with piercing strike, 1d4 + Str mod + 1/2 level + magic weapon + Dex mod, with a jump at level 21. If we assume +2 Str mod, +3 Dex mod, +5 weapon...that pit fiend will be taking 2d4+43 with a generic attack (5d6+51 on a crit), assuming no sneak attack.

The danger of that pit fiend we were shown is going to be interesting, as its threat level will be significantly altered by how readily available fire resistance is to PCs. No FR, and it will be doing as much damage as the rogue's generic crit, and have double the hit points. Once the rogue gets FR 15+, then they're evenly matched because the pit fiend will be doing half the rogue's damage.

And this is all assuming the rogue somehow never gets another ability aside from piercing strike for 25 levels. So who knows what kind of encounter abilities, minor actions, special move actions, magic items, DM blowjobs, and other effects will synergize and smack that pit fiend down in the first round. I can very easily assume there will be some kind of 'auto-crit' encounter ability, which means that in one round with combat advantage the rogue will deal 5d6+81 (almost a third of its HP).

And might I add that these lists of special class abilities are very familiar to F&K's idea in special ability design?

[Voss]

What's the crit damage coming from? By default, its max damage, only. + mods for weapons types (which I doubt light weapons get) and magical properties.

[virgil]

Criticals with magic weapons deal maximum damage AND an additional 1d6 per +1 to the weapon; at least that's my understanding. So when you crit with that +X sword, you deal Max Damage + Xd6 + special abilties.

[CatharzGodfoot]

For D&D the limited weapon selection doesn't seem so bad to me. They want rogues to use thief weapons, fighters to use fighter weapons, and wizards to use wizard weapons -- I don't see the problem. It's a flavor concern, and the flavor of D&D is 'rogues use short swords, fighters use longswords, and wizards use staves with knobs on the end'.

On the other hand, I agree that the sneak attack curve seems terrible. +3-18 damage per round at level 30 when you're getting 6 HP per level? At first level it's just equal to 3e (1d6 x 2 [rapid shot or TWFing] & 6+Con HP vs. 2d6 vs. 12 + Con HP).

[Voss]

1203743667[/unixtime]]For D&D the limited weapon selection doesn't seem so bad to me. They want rogues to use thief weapons, fighters to use fighter weapons, and wizards to use wizard weapons -- I don't see the problem. It's a flavor concern, and the flavor of D&D is 'rogues use short swords, fighters use longswords, and wizards use staves with knobs on the end'.

Thats the problem. They've decided they know what flavor is best for, in theory, all settings. And forced it into the class for no gain. Want to make a thug with a club? Fuck you, you can't.

On the other hand, I agree that the sneak attack curve seems terrible. +3-18 damage per round at level 30 when you're getting 6 HP per level? At first level it's just equal to 3e (1d6 x 2 [rapid shot or TWFing] & 6+Con HP vs. 2d6 vs. 12 + Con HP).

+5-30 per round at 30, technically.
And at first level, the disparity is a little higher- 4e apparently adds your Con *stat* to hit points at level 1, not Con modifier


virgileso- Ah, I hadn't seen that one. Thats a pretty big disparity between PC crits and monster crits, then. they don't get the 1/2 level damage bonus and they lose out on xd6 (x being whatever magic bonus is appropriate for the level)? Thats pretty rough.

[virgil]

What's to say they want to make a generic system that works for any setting anymore? System & setting seem to be explicitly tied now, even though the setting sounds like it's rather dysfunctional (trying to jam samurai next to vikings).

[Voss]

Eh. 1, The 'brutal' class path is clearly tied to a thug concept. Except he can't do traditionally thugish things- he's a swashbuckling thug, which strikes me as an oxymoron. And making the rogue just 'light bladesmen' doesn't tie into a background setting anyway. Its just a personal preference of the developers that they've decided to pass on to the players. Same with stealth and thievery being automatic class skills.

2, they specifically aren't going to a specific setting. Certain conceits and concepts are inherent in the default multiverse, but on the local and cultural level its rather formless. And supposedly, they aren't going to flesh that out.

[RandomCasualty]

1203743667[/unixtime]]For D&D the limited weapon selection doesn't seem so bad to me. They want rogues to use thief weapons, fighters to use fighter weapons, and wizards to use wizard weapons -- I don't see the problem. It's a flavor concern, and the flavor of D&D is 'rogues use short swords, fighters use longswords, and wizards use staves with knobs on the end'.

They suck. I mean, you can't even use a fucking rapier.

Also, the weapon limitations on the rogue's maneuvers are really going to cripple multiclassing.

I do like them giving the rogue more hp and giving him ToB style maneuvers instead of just using sneak attacks, but the rest of it is pretty bad.

[Imban]

We don't honestly know that multiclassing really even meaningfully exists in 4e.

But all that aside, this preview really cemented it for me - I'm not going to enjoy 4e, simply because it's become the game of fvcking stupid things like melee attacks against Will defense and attacks that inflict full normal damage even if you miss.

[Voss]

They rather seem designed to, don't they? You can't even sneak attack with those shuriken, let alone anything else, or use your other class powers with any other weapons.

And your ranged ability is limited to the range bands of shuriken, hand crossbows and slings. Suckage.

Here's a fun thought- a classic prisoner scenario fucks the rogue in the ass with a battering ram. Nothing works. He can't even scavenge an improvised weapon and do anything but likely smack someone with it and his unoptimized strength. A tavern with a ban on edged weapons? If he fails to hide one, he has nothing to fall back on if shit starts. Gods forbid if someone can back that ban up with magic. Disarm him and laugh, and laugh and laugh.

[Leress]

Where is the sap? That just blows my mind. How can they not have the sap as one of the weapons?

[Jacob_Orlove]

I really like the idea of having way, way fewer weapons statted up*, and ditto for armors, but the selection here sure looks sub-par. I mean for a class whose "talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination" you aren't even proficient at punching people in the face? I mean, 3.X is bad enough where you provoke for doing it, but at least everyone knows how to throw a punch.


* ideally, they'll say "you can describe your character as having a rapier, but mechanically it's just a short sword that you're calling a rapier." because there's really no need for rapiers to work differently from short swords. Throw out that simulationist nonsense and streamline the stats.