[3.X] Feat Free-for-All

[virgil]

Say you're running E6 to recreate that low-magic experience or whatever, and you make all feats prerequisite free. The effects of their powers may still be dependent on earlier ones, of course, but otherwise all feats are like the rogue's bonus feat.

What are the main problems with this idea? Would it work better with restrictions, like only noncasters get this option or the rule doesn't apply to epic feats? Should such a rule preclude the DM pre-making a list of the good feats to choose from so as to limit trap options; as we don't want players taking Cleave when they can take Great Cleave, for example.

[hogarth]

Say you're running E6 to recreate that low-magic experience or whatever, and you make all feats prerequisite free. The effects of their powers may still be dependent on earlier ones, of course, but otherwise all feats are like the rogue's bonus feat.

What are the main problems with this idea?

Well, depending on what books you're using, you'd be cranking up the power level (especially for weapon-users, considering there are more feats with prerequisites like "BAB +16" than there are feats with prerequisites like "able to cast 8th level spells). Whether cranking up the power level is a "problem" depends on what kind of game you're trying to run, of course, but I suspect it wouldn't have much of a "low magic" feel.

[CatharzGodfoot]

D&d is all about trap options; don't bother disallowing useless feats unless you want to take out all the Tiger Claws and Toughnesses.

On the other end, Sudden Quicken will be very popular with the casters.

[JonSetanta]

One must always account for Divine Metamagic.

[Antariuk]

One must always account for Divine Metamagic.

I pity the GM who'd allow this can of worms to be opened in an E6 game...

The general idea isn't that bad, would make E6 certainly more interesting to actually play a couple of sessions (seriously, I suspect E6 to be the big contender for the Theorycraft award of ever). Only problem I see is that system mastery wins even more.

[virgil]

Not sure how Divine Metamagic is all that much of a boost in this instance; I'd be more worried about Automatic Quicken Spell.

But yeah, system mastery being severe is the reason I ask if such a rule would require making a list to excise the trap options (Toughness bad, Epic Toughness alright). The biggest question is if completely opening the gates like this would be like giving your 1st level party an artifact each, missing the point in even using something like E6.

[Emerald]

Well, depending on what books you're using, you'd be cranking up the power level (especially for weapon-users, considering there are more feats with prerequisites like "BAB +16" than there are feats with prerequisites like "able to cast 8th level spells).

That's highly debatable, considering that the vast majority of feats requiring high BAB don't really deserve to be restricted to those high levels. I mean, just looking at a few PHB2 feats, Defensive Sweep (BAB 15, free AoO on adjacent enemies that don't move), Overwhelming Assault (BAB 15, +4 to attack in limited circumstances), and Slashing Flurry (BAB 14, two attacks at -5/-10 on a standard action or extra attack at -5 on a full attack) are incredibly underwhelming for their level and letting people take them at "6th level" would hardly increase the overall power level any more than including Tome of Battle would.

You'd really have to get into ELH feats before you start seeing consistent problems, and even so not all of those feats would be overpowered (Armor Skin is pathetic, Dire Charge is a 1st level barbarian ACF, Distant Shot is cool but kinda useless if you can't actually see your target, etc.).

Caster feats like Sudden Quicken et al. would obviously be incredibly powerful, but I can only think of a handful of feats I wouldn't let a fighter take at 6th+ level in E6, ELH stuff included.

[codeGlaze]

You could use one simple restriction or pre-req.
* Certain feats can only be taken at 6th.

That list is probaby incredibly short.

[hogarth]

The biggest question is if completely opening the gates like this would be like giving your 1st level party an artifact each, missing the point in even using something like E6.

My memory for 3.X splatbook feats is pretty murky at this point, but a Pathfinder feat like Greater Vital Strike would add +3[W] damage and a Pathfinder feat like Greater Eldritch Heritage would allow you to cherry-pick a level 15 sorcerer bloodline ability (most of which are pretty crappy, but some of which are still a bit silly for a level 1 PC in a "low magic" game).

[Roog]

Infinite Deflection + Exceptional Deflection

[tussock]

The most interesting bit of E6 is that there's no high level stuff in the whole game world, other than that you explicitly include with cap-breaking feats and a few crazy overpowered monsters. Raise Dead is something you have to walk across the entire multiverse just to beg for. Armies of War1 are perpetually useful. A +2 Dragon-slaying sword is an artifact beyond the power of anyone to recreate.

Reaching up a little is expected, but ruling in all high level Fighter feats is probably a bit hard on your 6th level Wizards and Clerics, who aren't all that much better than the Fighter in the first place. You may as well just cap casters at level 6 and make everyone multi. Which is an interesting idea too.

[OgreBattle]

I was going to start a thread about it, but how is Tomes for E6?

-Tome Monk has 3 fighting styles and can do Walk1000steps once per day
-Tome Fighter has problem solver and active assault
-Combat feats go up to +6 for warriors
-Magic users only go up to level 4 spells

It seems like a comfortable level of D&D to me.
Instead of getting new feats, perhaps you can spend exp to activate the higher abilities of [Combat] and [Skill] feats. Or just not have any advancement and enjoy running around with your competant level 6 dudes.

[wotmaniac]

Not sure how Divine Metamagic is all that much of a boost in this instance; I'd be more worried about Automatic Quicken Spell.

With enough Turn attempts, the 2 start to become indistinguishable.
Oh, and don't forget about Multispell.

[RobbyPants]

I was going to start a thread about it, but how is Tomes for E6?

...

-Magic users only go up to level 4 spells
.

Third level spells, actually.

Other than that, it'd play a lot like how you'd expect a combination of E6 and Tome. It would feel like E6, and the non-casters would pull their own weight a lot better. Full BAB characters would have a strong incentive to keep their full BAB for level 6 because of those feats. The +6 BAB and 9-rank skill feat abilities would let level 6 feel sort of "epic" in that people would unlock abilities at that level.


I have heard of an E8 variant, which I don't think would work as well for Tome. This would allow 3/4 BAB characters to unlock the +6 BAB portion of feats and casters would gain 4th level spells, while full BAB characters would stop getting as much stuff.

[spongeknight]

I've played a Tome E6 game before, and it was a lot of fun. We had a marshall, a soulborn, a ninja and a souhei. Everyone had cool stuff to do, shit didn't get too crazy, and it's very possible to feel badass at that level of Tome.

The only possible downside of allowing feats without prereqs are the known broken combos- shock trooper + leap attack, ubercharging, metamagic reducing chicanery, ect. Very few feats are really level appropriate in 3.5, and of course all Tome feats scale, so other than those things you're not going to run into many problems.

Also, I believe the "official" E6 rules allow spellcasters to eventually reach up and grab 4th level slots with some of their custom E6 feats, if memory serves.

[virgil]

I still don't see how Divine Metamagic is made any better with removing prerequisites. Everything you can do with that feat you can do at the same levels with prereqs retained. The Leap Attack + Shock Trooper combo isn't really all that improved with prereqs removed; as you need to take Power Attack to fully use them, and its use is capped by BaB and is obtainable by level 6 as a Fighter anyway. It saves on not taking Improved Bull Rush, I guess, which is a 'meh' combat boost.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are awesome combos, but half of your examples so far are stuff you could do anyway.

TomE6 sounds intriguing, and likely simpler to run.

[TiaC]

I prefer removing the prerequisites for prestige classes. It opens up a lot of interesting abilities.

[virgil]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

[Maxus]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

[TiaC]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

That's a powerful option, but so is Blackguard 6 or any other 4th level spells in 10 levels class.

[wotmaniac]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

Um .... I say again, Automatic Quicken + an arbitrary # of iterations of Multispell.
Ya know, since we're talking about throwing out prereqs.

[virgil]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

Um .... I say again, Automatic Quicken + an arbitrary # of iterations of Multispell.
Ya know, since we're talking about throwing out prereqs.

You thought the nova-tactic was a problem before

[TiaC]

Might cause some issue with Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4; being two 5th level casters in a 6th level world.

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

Um .... I say again, Automatic Quicken + an arbitrary # of iterations of Multispell.
Ya know, since we're talking about throwing out prereqs.

Do one or the other, not both.

[wotmaniac]

It gives the versatility, sure, but you've still got the action economy to worry about.

Um .... I say again, Automatic Quicken + an arbitrary # of iterations of Multispell.
Ya know, since we're talking about throwing out prereqs.

You thought the nova-tactic was a problem before

Um, well, ... I guess there is that.
Alright, so you just have to spend the rest of your feats on Extra Spell Slot.

[OgreBattle]

I've played a Tome E6 game before, and it was a lot of fun. We had a marshall, a soulborn, a ninja and a souhei. Everyone had cool stuff to do, shit didn't get too crazy, and it's very possible to feel badass at that level of Tome.

Did anyone multiclass with Tome classes?