After Sundown tweaks/house rules

[Lokathor]

So, one thing that can be done while adding more subtypes is adding creatures to a group using a new power schedule. That way there can be more than one creature within a type that has the same power source, but there's still a clear reason to have them be different.

[*]Vampire - You need to be on a Feeding schedule or you're basically not a vamp.
[*]Lycanthrope - Same here, you basically need to be Lunar or people won't accept that you're a real lycanthrope.
[*]Animate - Currently there are only Ritual Animates, but there's no reason that you couldn't have a Feeding or Lunar Animate of some sort. Right now, material-wise, Animtes have Plastic, Flesh, and Stone; some sort of Ooze/Blob humanoid (like the Skin of Evil) might power up by eating up the living. I can't think of what a Lunar Animate would be, offhand, but maybe they have some other form of creation rather than just being a different material. In other words, reuse a material but come up with a new reason they'd be built, since animates are also defined by the reason of their creation.
[*]Transhuman - There's no Feeding Transhuman, but Frank's also right that there's not much more conceptual space for Transhumans in the first place. If you can think of something though, maybe try to explain why it'd be a Feeding creature.
[*]Witch - No Lunar witches right now. You could make a new kind of witch easily. Pick a sorcery theme, say why it likes the moon, off you go. That's about the only reason you'd make a new witch though. Basically this can be combined with what Frank said, and "Witch" could be pushed towards being a "build a subtype" type; if we're already giving up on having exactly 3 subtypes per main type then we might as well.
[*]Leviathan - We've got no Ritual Leviathans. But Sasquach doesn't really seem like it'd be a Ritual creature. Maybe Deep Ones or Mi Go can be converted into Ritual style (chating to their dark gods), or another new Leviathan can be added with this schedule in mind (Star Spawn or something).

[Prak]

I'd say Animates are more segregated by the reason they were built, than what material they are composed of. Frankensteins were made to be children, golems workers, and androids lovers.

That seems to pretty well cover artificial beings, really. I suppose you could have "Built to be a warrior" which would make some sense as a feeding power schedule.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I would suggest that the lunar witch be Astral. It just seems appropriate.

Maybe the idea is just sort of going with your feelings, rather than thinking about things too much -- the waking world feels like a dream. It's lunar because dreams don't have proper causality, and just kind of fluctuate. Edit: the distinctive flaw would probably be tunnel vision, or maybe a delusion that this is all a dream.

This being horror, of course, that dream will frequently be a nightmare.

Some quick things:

• The problem with a feeding type transhuman is that it feels too much like a vampire.
• Frank's comment about how the types are defined by their story rather than by what they are makes some sense to me.

[Orion]

There are definitely types of relationships that we haven't done animates for yet. We haven't looked at the Animate as a parent or caretaker yet, or focused on the personal tragedy of sterility. You could get some pathos out of an Orphic Animate whose need to feel needed is thwarted by his inability to even keep a live plant.

[Username17]

There are definitely types of relationships that we haven't done animates for yet. We haven't looked at the Animate as a parent or caretaker yet, or focused on the personal tragedy of sterility. You could get some pathos out of an Orphic Animate whose need to feel needed is thwarted by his inability to even keep a live plant.

That's true, but I'm not sure I can think of any mythic resonance there. The Animate is inherently "born yesterday", so casting them in the maternal role is fairly difficult. About the only thing I can think of is colony caretaker robots gone mad and destructive. Like maybe Red Queen, or Mother Brain.

That would imply not even going Manikin. Galatea, or Pinocchio, but hologram. An even more futuristic type than the Android.

-Username17

[Grek]

While you could have an Animate that wasn't on the Ritual power source, I feel like you probably shouldn't. It's a good thing that all of the Vampires have a Feeding schedule, all the Lycanthropes have a Lunar schedule and all of the Animates have a Ritual schedule. It's mnemonic.

With Witches, I am all in favour of making them the mix and match type. Keep the current types, but have them look like this:
Baali: Infernal. Feeding OR Lunar. Command, Mesmerism, Aura Perception, any three Basic Infernal, one Advanced Infernal and one Advanced Authority.
Dryad: Astral. Ritual OR Lunar. Bitter Fruit, Grass Rope, Aura Perception, any three Basic Astral, one Advanced Astral and one Advanced Coil of Thorns.
Khaibit: Orphic. Ritual OR Feeding. Summon Spirit, Compel Spirits, Aura Perception, any three Basic Orphic, one Advanced Orphic and one Advanced Necromancy.

Mi Go can easily be ported to a Ritual schedule if that's a thing you want. In order to recharge your powers, you've got to spend some quality time with your bugs, letting them crawl all over you and your cheerios.

If we want a Feeding Transhuman, then the answer is simple:
The Possessed

These unfortunate transhumans are occasionally created when a supernatural being attempts to take over the mind of a Luminary using magic and is either driven insane or killed in the attempt. The results are tragic: The victim, though spared the fate of becoming a slave to some supernatural creature and still in control of their body, find themselves having strange thoughts not their own and violent impulses often completely contrary to their normal behavior. The victim becomes progressively more and more unstable until they lose control entirely or they find some way to sate the darkness within them.

In truth, some fragment of their assailant's soul or some remnant of their power persists within the mind of the victim, still trying to destroy the victim's mind and take over their body. Though some of the Possessed try strike a bargain with their inner demons, hoping to co-exist within the same body, the results are never pleasant. Inevitably the Possessed's other half, created by a mind antithetical to the victim's own will, betrays the host, unable to resist an opportunity to seize control. This internal struggle leaves the Possessed emotionally and mentally unstable, forever fighting with themselves for control. Whenever the Possessed enters into a frenzy, they briefly lose control, succumbing to the dark whisperings of their other self, engaging in destructive rampages and horrible mistakes. All Possessed suffer from the Flaw being Temperamental.

Even when in control of their bodies, the Possessed's internal struggle leads forces them to allow their battles with their inner demons to spill over into the real world, attacking themselves and others in order to satisfy their inner darkness with blood, death or else to cow it into submission with threats of violence and self-harm. As a result, the Possessed as a Feeding power schedule. Furthermore, due to the nature of their creation, all of the Possessed find themselves the recipient of an extensive knowledge of mental conditioning and domination, in equal parts plundered from the minds of their attackers and discovered firsthand while trying to fend off the continued attacks. Tragically, this often leads the Possessed to attack the minds of others as they themselves were attacked, tearing apart their already unstable minds in the process of dominating others, eventually continuing the cycle of domination and destruction which created them.

Possessed Starting Powers:
- Core Discipline: Authority -
Command (Basic Authority)
Suggestion (Basic Authority)

- Basic Powers -
Quickness (Basic Celerity)
Vigor (Basic Clout)
Poison Heart (Basic Names of the Blasphemies)
Curse of Failure (Basic Trail of Tears)

- Advanced Powers -
Conditioning (Advanced Authority)
Dark Night of the Soul (Advanced Trail of Tears)

[Chamomile]

All that Animates really need is a sidebar explaining that your Android can be sculpted from stone and brought to life by an ambiguous magical force if you want to be Galatea: The important thing is that you're a lover who can never feel loved. Even the warrior created and abandoned strikes me as fundamentally a Golem schtick. Created to serve a purpose, then cast aside.

[erik]

I don't get why Possessed = feeding schedule. Also it doesn't seem different enough from Reborn who may also have a mind not their own pressing its dominance upon theirs.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I'd say that a transhuman with a feeding schedule just feels like a self-made vampire.

[Username17]

With Witches, I am all in favour of making them the mix and match type. Keep the current types, but have them look like this:
Baali: Infernal. Feeding OR Lunar. Command, Mesmerism, Aura Perception, any three Basic Infernal, one Advanced Infernal and one Advanced Authority.
Dryad: Astral. Ritual OR Lunar. Bitter Fruit, Grass Rope, Aura Perception, any three Basic Astral, one Advanced Astral and one Advanced Coil of Thorns.
Khaibit: Orphic. Ritual OR Feeding. Summon Spirit, Compel Spirits, Aura Perception, any three Basic Orphic, one Advanced Orphic and one Advanced Necromancy.

That looks pretty good. A "make your own subtype" type that still feels coherent and thematic.

-Username17

[Orion]

If we're making witches customizable, it is imperative that Dryads not be locked into Advanced Coil of Thorns. When considering generic astral mages, I think we need to admit that stormcallers and shapeshifters are more popular than horticulturalists. The Coil of Thorns disciplines, while cool, are also vaguely-defined and downtime-oriented, so it's really not an appropriate discipline for all games.

EDIT: What about Robbie?

[Judging__Eagle]

I don't get why Possessed = feeding schedule. Also it doesn't seem different enough from Reborn who may also have a mind not their own pressing its dominance upon theirs.

While Tyler's actions from Heavy Metal 2000 would suggest that "totally killing people, and processing their body juices for immortality serum" is a legitimate thing for someone driven crazy by an artifact that they found; Oren and his sword that is not a sword (and is guided by an imp) and Peter Pan (whose dagger is able to parry swords, despite their difference in reach) (who is also guided by an imp); or Gattsu whose sword is improbably massive (and uses an Imp as a healing salt-shaker) would argue otherwise.

Every two hours that a Possessed spends in the vicinity of their infernal relic automatically recharges them.

Even Tyler, who drinks vials of immortality/regeneration serum, has to spend time basking in the hellish glow of his evil crystal.

The characters in Needful Things are also examples of people given addictive Infernal relics.

While a Feeding schedule may seem better; it isn't necessarily so. Since feeding requires that there be a food supply that qualifies as a supernaturally horrible one to qualify. While Lost/Fallen/Urchins are actually one of the closest of all the Playable types to getting the best parts of a Continual power schedule (recharge damned fast); and none of the worst parts (only have a half of maxium charge).

Edit:

Orion, Robbie* is a Golem. Assuming we're talking about the same Robbie.

*:Assuming you meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_(short_story) the [ url ] bb script isn't working in this post.

Honestly, I'm surprised that you had to ask; the answer is pretty self-evident.

They're not like Wonder Woman (clay statue made flesh); and they're not like C3-P0 (Mechanical Creature meant to appear like a person). They're like R2-D2.

[Lokathor]

Witches could simply be given the option to select a Universal in place of any Sorcery selection, then you could pick one Basic power somewhere and then spend your "Advanced Coil of Thorns" on an advanced universal instead. That might be too much to pick from, perhaps each "advanced selection" could just be given a 2nd or third sorcery group to pick from. Maybe it's just that Coil of Thorns is not very interesting to me as a Sorcery Group, but the example Baali is picking from Authority anyway.

Example:
[*]Baali - You have Infernal power. Pick a power schedule and explain why your magic uses it. Your starting powers are: Aura Perception, any two Basic Infernal sorceries from the same group, as well as any three basic Infernal or Universal powers. Select one Advanced Infernal sorcery and one Advanced Infernal or Universal power (you must qualify for both selections, as normal). Your Distinctive Flaw is either Blatantly Magical or Distinctive Appearance.
[*]Dryad - You have Astral power. The same as above, but replace all instances of "Infernal" with "Astral". Your Distinctive Flaw is either Aimless or Prideful.
[*]Khaibit - You have Orphic power. The same as above, but replace all instances of "Infernal" with "Orphic". Your Disctinctive Flaw is either Eerie Presence or Haunted.

That's kinda how I'd like to see it go, but I can see the argument that it makes Witches "too generalized", and "lacking in strong theme".

[Prak]

There are definitely types of relationships that we haven't done animates for yet. We haven't looked at the Animate as a parent or caretaker yet, or focused on the personal tragedy of sterility. You could get some pathos out of an Orphic Animate whose need to feel needed is thwarted by his inability to even keep a live plant.

That's true, but I'm not sure I can think of any mythic resonance there. The Animate is inherently "born yesterday", so casting them in the maternal role is fairly difficult. About the only thing I can think of is colony caretaker robots gone mad and destructive. Like maybe Red Queen, or Mother Brain.

That would imply not even going Manikin. Galatea, or Pinocchio, but hologram. An even more futuristic type than the Android.

-Username17

Apparently Jimmy Neutron made robot parents. And Zim made things to "look like" parents as part of his cover story, as well as having been... hatched? by a robotic mother sort of deal (though, literally "cold unfeeling robot arm")

[Judging__Eagle]

Lokathor, Baali should retain Disloyal for original thematic and nomeclature purposes. Of the three witch types, they resemble "warlocks"; and warlock == traitor in archaic English.

[Username17]

If we're making witches customizable, it is imperative that Dryads not be locked into Advanced Coil of Thorns. When considering generic astral mages, I think we need to admit that stormcallers and shapeshifters are more popular than horticulturalists. The Coil of Thorns disciplines, while cool, are also vaguely-defined and downtime-oriented, so it's really not an appropriate discipline for all games.

That is a compelling point. However, I do believe that you can't really call yourself an Astral Witch if you don't have Bitter Fruit. Even if your primary shtick is storm calling or something, people should be able to look to you for evil potions. So how's this?

• Baali: Command, Aura Perception, Cloud Memory
• Dryad: Bitter Fruit, Aura Perception, Telepathy
• Khaibit: Summon Spirits, Aura Perception, Reanimate

And then every character gets 4 Basics and an Advanced that come from:

• Baali: Discernment, Authority, Any Infernal Sorcery
• Dryad: Discernment, Veil, Any Astral Sorcery
• Khaibit: Discernment, Fortitude, Any Orphic Sorcery

Does that seem open enough? Too open?

EDIT: What about Robbie?

The Aasimov story?

-Username17

[Lokathor]

Lokathor, Baali should retain Disloyal for original thematic and nomeclature purposes. Of the three witch types, they resemble "warlocks"; and warlock == traitor in archaic English.

Well... whatever then, but the entire theme is being ripped apart in the first place, that's the point of allowing more character design with Witches. You're picking your own theme.

There's so many "magic user person" themes you can pick that it really-actually boils down to "pick a power source, you start with only basic powers and sorceries of that power source. Also you have to pick Aura Perception cause it's Witchy. Once you have your powers picked then design your theme, or use your theme to pick your powers. Any order you like, go have fun."

However, I do believe that you can't really call yourself an Astral Witch if you don't have Bitter Fruit. Even if your primary shtick is storm calling or something, people should be able to look to you for evil potions.

Odd, because to me, the DnD 3e idea of "tons of people do magic, few of them can make potions" is what I'd usually go with. It seems totally fine to me to have a Astral Witch that just deals in giant animals and half-way waterbending. Then again I've never been thematically interested in the idea of evil potions in the first place.

Does that seem open enough?

Yeah that pretty much works. The structure of what's going on is perfectly visible from there, so anyone who wants to make it more open in their home game can easily do so, and it's a good "default" level of openness (considering that the game isn't just all about Witches, giving them complete power freedom seems like it'd make them excessively popular).

[Whipstitch]

AS magic is heavier on non-fiction sources than D&D, however, since those non-fiction sources often serve as inspirations for the media it hopes to emulate. And, obviously, irl "magic" is biased towards stuff that's easier to fake or trick yourself into believing, like divination, curses or homeopathy.

[Judging__Eagle]

Lokathor, Baali should retain Disloyal for original thematic and nomeclature purposes. Of the three witch types, they resemble "warlocks"; and warlock == traitor in archaic English.

Well... whatever then, but the entire theme is being ripped apart in the first place, that's the point of allowing more character design with Witches. You're picking your own theme.

There's so many "magic user person" themes you can pick that it really-actually boils down to "pick a power source, you start with only basic powers and sorceries of that power source. Also you have to pick Aura Perception cause it's Witchy. Once you have your powers picked then design your theme, or use your theme to pick your powers. Any order you like, go have fun."

That's fair.

However, the fact that a Baali is always going to be a "blood witch", who does the very anti-societal act of harming in order to gain power aligns with the notion that they don't care about others, and harming others gives them literal power.

It's not so much about ripping apart, as boiling away, or rendering down, the themes to their most basic and most repeated elements.

Some examples of how the three gain their power points, for example:

Infernal-Witches engage in blood sacrifice. [Either themselves; like the Aztecs cutting themselves or Warhammer Empire Bright-Wizards carving their skin; or others like the High Priest of Kali in Temple of Doom, or Aztec cutting the hearts of others]

Star-Witches climb to their observatories to see the Moon rise as quickly as possible. [Observatories being an operative word; climbing the sacred Oak; or mounting the earliest known Observatory at Ekur (a real site), Gobekli Tepe, The Pyramid of Giza, or the Washington Monument; all could count as 'Observatories']

Death-Witches dance around with bones. [Chinese diviners throwing divining bones; Celtic Druids (among hundreds of other Original Faiths) calling upon the power of the Old/Young Prey-God via wearing a deer-headress; First Nations Medicine-workers wearing headresses and aprons of feathers and bones]

I've been finding that the best way to identify any of the types of creatures in AS is to find examples from human history or mono-myths.

[Lokathor]

However, the fact that a Baali is always going to be a "blood witch", who does the very anti-societal act of harming in order to gain power aligns with the notion that they don't care about others, and harming others gives them literal power.

In my example, they don't even keep that much. All three witches would be "pick your power source".

It would actually basically be a single Subtype writeup that reads:

Witch
`Master Passion Default: Greed
`Weakness: Water (or Alcohol?)
`Vulnerability: Silver
`Power Source: pick any
`Power Schedule: pick any other than Continual

- Core Discipline -
Pick any sorcerous discipline that matches your power source
- Basic Powers -
Pick any four other basic powers from among the Universal powers and the Sorcerous powers that match your power source.
- Advanced Powes -
Pick any two Advanced powers that you qualify for.

Distinctive Flaw: Discuss with the MC

Personally, I'm totally lacking in knowledge about history and stuff (as are 3 of the 4 others I game with), but I do love me some fictional works, so I usually use [modern] fictional sources/references/tropes/etc as the basis. I can see where others would wanna go differently with that though.

[Judging__Eagle]

That's fair.

The direction that I'm favouring with my own After Sundown remix is to treat it as a mix between National Geographic Magazine (which I've been reading for years; and my homes collection goes solid back to the mid 1970's; with chunks going as far back as 1929); and what Frank has written up for Dead Man's Hand, and the Fantasy Kitchensink thread (among some of the stuff Frank wrote that I'm taking notes from).

So I've been sorting the existing types according to current 21st century human literature, but also human mono-myths; and organizing the "creature species" by biological taxonomy as much as possible.

Which results in unexpected things; like how Claw Druids are Bear/Seal/Wolf (not Cat, as WoW would like us to believe); while Bagheera and Nezumi's power sources get transposed between Infernal and Orphic (b/c I want Kobalt-Gnomes to be deadly burrowers; and Hell-Cats is a mono-myth that people seem to make everywhere completely coincidentaly). This last one was a mistake on my part; and only recently have I realized that I deviated from AS in this; but decided that I liked my way more; also, Gnolls are totally Bagheera, and Yeeghnou is totally in-canon across games as a result (not that many people care, but an interesting bit of trivia I realized).

[Sashi]

All that Animates really need is a sidebar explaining that your Android can be sculpted from stone and brought to life by an ambiguous magical force if you want to be Galatea

This works well for the Lunar power schedule. The only problem is that the obvious mechanism (statue when the sun is up, come to life when the moon rises) makes you very vulnerable and works much better as an NPC.

[Lokathor]

All that Animates really need is a sidebar explaining that your Android can be sculpted from stone and brought to life by an ambiguous magical force if you want to be Galatea

This works well for the Lunar power schedule. The only problem is that the obvious mechanism (statue when the sun is up, come to life when the moon rises) makes you very vulnerable and works much better as an NPC.

If you warp the rules a little further, you could just give them a Sunlight weakness instead of making them be a literal statue in the day.

[Judging__Eagle]

An other option would be to make it a combination of Advantage and Disadvantage.

For the most part, I'm reluctant to monkey around with the mechanics of AS; and much more comfortable either solidifying, or gelling the aesthetics.

[Username17]

Even in modern fiction, the amount of magic that people use in twelve seconds or less is very small. Generally, when someone uses "magic", it involves chalk symbols on the floor, a bubbling cauldron, and waving a wand around. Spells that you can get off in combat time are rare, to the point that when people use them it generally doesn't even look like "magic". It looks like superhero fiction.

It's a huge problem that, for example, White Wolf's Mage ran into. If people are making stuff happen in three seconds or less, it doesn't look anything at all like traditional magic. When we talk about "Witches", the very first image that comes up is Witches brewing something. The Witch's Brew is just as iconic as the Witch's Hat or the Witch's Broom.



-Username17