After Sundown tweaks/house rules

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:52 am

Yeah, I don't really get it either, but I like corax, because I like ravens. There's also the fact that the great number of shapechangers in OWoD is explained by the fact that, 1) every animal used to be able to turn into a humanoid form, because being a changing breed just means that you are a creature with a hybrid animal/human spirit, and 2) the types are distinguished by "function." The wolves are the warriors of Gaia, the bears are her healers, boars were the cleaners, snakes the judges, coyotes the trickster/teachers, etc. Ravens were Gaia's spies and messengers, created to ferret out information and share it amongst the forces of Gaia.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:54 am

If you want to turn into a nonstandard animal, can't you just take the "Beast Form" sorcery on just about anything that doesn't already have it?

---

Also, is there a power or sorcery that does a physical transformation along the lines of changelings from Eberron? Mask of a Thousand Faces seems similar, but is an illusion.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:31 am

There's nothing stopping even characters who already have Beast Form from selecting it again, actually, and you receive bonus selections when you take it multiple times. Obviously, things get redundant quickly, but twice is pretty defensible--three forms can let you nab raven, reef snake and large, fast predator forms.

rampaging-poet · Post by **rampaging-poet** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:57 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Also, is there a power or sorcery that does a physical transformation along the lines of changelings from Eberron? Mask of a Thousand Faces seems similar, but is an illusion.

There was a little discussion of this idea in one of the After Sundown Questions threads. My personal interpretation/house rule is that you can take "human" as a Beast Form to turn into one particular human. Beast Form is more expensive and less versatile than Mask of the Thousand Faces, but it also gets around issues like security cameras and accidentally grabbing things from high shelves while imitating a 5'1" teenage girl.

This interpretation also lets me shoehorn Ranma in sideways by saying he's an Icarid using Beast Form to become a man and getting wet dispels it. Paradoxically, a hot bath is his power ritual.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:38 am

Ravens are not traditionally considered to be a dangerous predator, are diurnal, are not characterized by rage in the slightest, and just generally don't fit the lycanthrope template at all. There are plenty of wizards who turn into a bird, but if you make every person who shape changes into anything into a lycanthrope, you seriously water down the concept.

Bird people would work better as a Leviathan subtype. They'd work better as a Witch subtype. But fundamentally, since anyone can just learn beast form, they don't need to be a subtype at all. Yes, there should be people turning into Ravens and having Raven Familiars. But that's just [Fill In Dude] who happens to have some amount of animalism sorcery.

When Merlin transforms into a bird, we don't call him a "bird man" or a "werebird" or anything. That's just a spell, and he turns into a bird. When Bayonetta turns into a bird, she's not a "bird witch", she's just a Witch, and turning into a bird happens to be a thing she does. Even Sorceress, who turns into a falcon and wears a bird costume around the house is still not considered a "bird woman", her totemic bird fixation mostly passes without comment. Eric's actual name is "the Crow" and he has a bunch of supernatural crow-related powers, but he's a particularly solid form of ghost. None of these people run around biting people to turn them into birds. Heck, their children don't even have equivalent bird-fixations. It's literally just a spell that warlocks happen to be able to learn.

Anyway, on Spider people: spiders are awesome. They are creepy, and there are numerous examples of characters whose entire shtick is "has spider traits and powers". But I think it's a rather terrible fit for lycanthropes. Not as bad as Werecrows, but not terribly good. Even if you wanted to have them run around biting people and turning them into the same creature, it would be better to have spider Vampires or spider Demons or even spider Leviathans. Spider Vampires seems especially reasonable, considering that there is an actual "vampire spider" from Kenya.

On Scion: Scion is very cool as a concept, but of course literally unplayable in that it doesn't even have a task resolution system. There are many other problems, but fundamentally it isn't even a game. It's like a cargo cult White Wolf product, aping the appearance of White Wolf mechanics but not actually having the underlying mechanisms to do anything at all. Or perhaps an extremely involved trolling exercise, just to test to see if anyone would read their thousand page screed closely enough to realize that they never included a way to tell if you succeeded at a task.

So obviously, you'd need to ground up the whole concept, because there's actually no game there to mod. The children of Divinities are definitely all Steves, in that Percy Jackson's half brothers include a flying horse, a wind god, and a fire breathing giant. On the other hand, when you see a character do something magical, you still want to have some general idea of what other things they might be able to do, so the game doesn't end up like 4e where every mob pulls random bullshit out every round and there's no way to extrapolate from the past or things you can see in the present to what your enemies are about to do to you.

Such a game would probably want portfolios that people could choose from but no base packages at all. The fact that you're the son of a sea god very explicitly means absolutely fuck all in terms of what you can do. But once you find out that your shtick is about fire and warcraft, then the other players should expect fire and warcraft related abilities to pop out of you - and not D&D wizard bullshit where each spell that you pull out has absolutely nothing to do with what the previous or next spell you cast is.

In short: themes but not classes, if that makes any sense.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:53 am

Corax make sense in the context of Werewolf the Apocalypse. In AS, I fully agree that they really don't make a ton of sense. Though werecrocodiles and sharks are totally things in folk lore if I recall correctly.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:10 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Corax make sense in the context of Werewolf the Apocalypse. In AS, I fully agree that they really don't make a ton of sense. Though werecrocodiles and sharks are totally things in folk lore if I recall correctly.

Even in Werewolf the Apocalypse, the Corax didn't make a lick of sense. The entire line's tag line is "When will you rage?" and for the Corax, the answer is "never". Because they don't have anger management issues. At all. The difference between them and a line of hereditary sorcerers is... very thin.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:41 am

I would say that's an issue with marketing, and not tying to the metaplot of the game; or my focus on a particular portion of the game. But, lets face it, even with functions to explain different changing breeds, the game is supposed to be about turning into a enormous greenfurry rage monster, so admittedly, there was little point to them. Sadly. I like the little buggers, even if they can do fuck all in combat unless they're set up to do and equipped with talens.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:00 am

Prak_Anima wrote:I would say that's an issue with marketing, and not tying to the metaplot of the game; or my focus on a particular portion of the game. But, lets face it, even with functions to explain different changing breeds, the game is supposed to be about turning into a enormous greenfurry rage monster, so admittedly, there was little point to them. Sadly. I like the little buggers, even if they can do fuck all in combat unless they're set up to do and equipped with talens.

I'm definitely not saying that there is anything wrong with "bird people who are tricksters and scouts". That's totally reasonable, and Tengu are among my favorite anthro-monsters.

But I just don't see how any of that involves being a lycanthrope. None of the lycanthropy traits really apply. Even in the dog fucking world of Werewolf: the Apocalypse, where shapeshifters are bred rather than transmitted (and raping animals is part and parcel of the whole deal), they didn't really have a place. Sure, there was some bit of lore about how the Corvax were created in the ancient past to make a scout caste in the hierarchical furry armies of Gaea, but even that seemed hopelessly tacked on. They weren't in anyone's army right now. Who were they supposed to scout to? Hell, since they weren't actually in anyone's camp, who were they supposed to play tricks on? You can't be a trickster outsider unless you're outside of something. And not to put too fine a point on it: crows mate and poop out of the same hole and don't have penises, so anything which involves "having sex as a crow" is even filthier than the "normal" places these sorts of Piers Anthony thought experiments go.

Bottom line: Tengu are awesome and lycanthropes are awesome; but trying to convert them into a lycanthrope subtype requires too much shitting on both archetypes for the end result to be any good.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:07 am

There are a lot of "technically"s I could put up if I cared enough. I don't because you are broadly right, even if there's some glossing over trivial crap.

If you did up "After Sundown revised" what do you think you'd do for the various supernatural types, given that you mentioned another four or five types of vamp, while animates barely fit three, etc? I personally like the idea of differentiating lycanthropes by function/form type rather than actual animal. Ie, one type of lycanthrope represents turning into rats, bats, predatory birds, and large spiders, another wolves, bears, large cats, etc, and a third sharks, crocodiles, whales, etc. That would seriously fuck with other niches, and has no real point, though.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:04 am

Corax were included because the setting is highly immersed in a pastiche of Native American beliefs, esp. including Pacific Coast Native beliefs, like those of the Tlingit and in all probability heavy exposure to the art of Larry McNeil amongst other Tlingit artists or at least similar artists. So, when you view it as a Native American cultural pastiche, from that perspective, Corax make a certain bizarre sense, right next to Wendigo. I believe it was this that persuaded anyone to include wereravens, that and they are dark and brooding, This doesn't make them suitable for After Sundown though, and it doesn't even necessarily suggest why there should be _yet another_ kind of shapeshifters with them being ravens of all things. There being a potent totem and a cultural data mine does not mean "weremonster." It means "someone should have the ability to turn into this." And people do, because Beast Form exists.

A werebird would have to be an owl or something, something actually associated with, you know, the Moon, and even then, they aren't characterized as flipping out and biting people. It's just not a bird "thing" in people's minds, even though actual birds are belligerent berserking fucks who I could totally see as having Master Passion Rage. If they can't be connected to the AS metanarrative for lycanthropes (biting, infection, lunar, etc.), they should not exist as lycanthropes.

As for Spider Vampires, we have Nosferatu. If my AS games didn't keep dying, I'd have already unleashed a spider-like Nosferatu on my players. Mostly to creep them out a lot.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:27 pm

I think that lycanthropes really do need to be split up by creature type and not by tactical role. Saying "I'm a Werewolf" is simply much more evocative than saying "I'm a lycanthropic striker". From a storytelling standpoint, telling other players your tactical role is pretty much a dead end. It's not completely unhelpful, they know that if you're a "controller" shifter that you can contribute in one way and that if you're a "tank" shifter you can contribute in another. But bottom line is still that thisis only helpful metagame, it conveys little or no in-character information. For one thing, it jumbles together creatures that people in-world would not jumble together. If two creatures were one a werescorpion and the other a werekomodo, it wouldn't really occur to people in-world that they were in any way "the same". One's a reptile and the other is an arachnid, and only metagame do they both do DoT and fall into the "kiting type". And from a lore standpoint, it makes things really complicated if there are a bunch of different lycanthropy strains. We've gone there a little bit with the "there might be two strains of Bagheera" plotline, but it makes things a mess if everything is like that.

Anyway, let's go through the splats one at a time.

Vampires

Vampires have more source material in modern horror fiction than all other playable types combined. There's more to draw on, and less commonality. You could easily make 13 bloodlines of vampires without stepping on anyone's toes. White Wolf never did that, and that would still be too many to remember, but you could do it. The Dusk Til Dawn vampires aren't very much like the Wir sind die Nacht vampires and neither are very much like the Nosferatu vampires or the Kuroneko vampires. More importantly, I feel like the Strigoi are kind of schizophrenic trying to be the aristocratic vampire and the serpent vampire at the same time. It was done wonderfully in Lair of the White Worm, but in most cases those are two different things. Putting the aristocratic vampires in with the Jiangshi (and thus having their arrival in Europe come from the East along with the Hungarians, putting their European stronghold in... Transylvania) seems doable.

From a mnemonic standpoint, I think people could go as high as seven vampire clans. It takes me a bit, but I can rattle off all seven of the original Vampire clans. Doing thirteen or more is right out.

Lycanthropes

As I alluded to earlier, I think it is trivial to make new lycanthrope groups that are clearly and meaningfully distinct. I also think that diminishing returns sets in really fast. Even among the basic three, there is a huge step from the amount of source material there is going from werewolves to bagheera, and another huge step going from bagheera to nezumi. Wererats have their own wiki page, but only barely. Most other lycanthropes don't even get that.

The number one contender for addition, obviously, is the werebear. I know that wikipedia just has a page for dungeons and dragons and another page for a 1980s British line of teddy bears, but source material does exist. Bearsarks from Viking legend and Beorn from LotR for example. After that, source material gets even scarcer, with Pigs, Sharks, and Seals being the only ones I could get you a solid anything on. And while I did like Ondine, it's pretty thin gruel if you're trying to source a character who can go toe to toe with Dracula or Adam. Absolute maximum would be 7 I suppose, with a more probable cutoff at 4 or 5. I'm not sure that honoring Polynesian legends and the Hawaiian Nanaue is worth the inevitable "street sharks" references.

Animates

From a simple materials standpoint, Pinocchio is made of wood, Galatea is made of stone, and Emmy is made of plastic (from Ancient Egypt, it's... a kind of dumb movie). Simplistically, you could add three flavors right there. But Animates aren't just about being made of a material, they are also about forms of loneliness and rejection. We already have the spurned lover (Android), the rejected child (Frankenstein), and the abused servant (Golem). Pinnochio, Pygmalion, and Manikin don't really cover any new ground there.

Other forms of loneliness and rejection exist of course, but we actually can't do any ostraka scenario or peer rejection because in play the character needs to have a group of reliable friends - the other player characters at the very least. That's just a requirement of the medium. I'm not sure there's really any room for even a single extra variety of Animate.

Witches

nMage was really unable to sell me on the need for extra varieties of Witch. Indeed, while you could certainly find source material for all kinds of Witches, it's difficult to do them up in a way that is truly distinct in flavor. Probably the best thing to do would actually just to give Witches less fixed starting powers and let them mix and match sorceries from their favored power source. That seems like it would cover everything you wanted Witches to do (have different flavors of sorcery), without the need for any new types.

Leviathan

There are of course, lots of Cryptids. And of course, in House of Frankenstein the Hunchback and Mad Doctor get equal billing with Dracula, Wolman and Frankenstein's Monster. So there are certainly places to go. Right now, we go for the body horror angle with Gillman, Moleman, and Whisperer in Darkness. But the genre can be expanded upon.

The most obvious expansion point would be Ape Men. You have genuine cryptids to work with like Bigfoot and Agogwe, and you have crossbreed horror like Murders in the Rue Morgue and The White Ape. Obviously problematic, because The White Ape is incredibly racist, but I think there are enough apeman stories that it can be worked around. After that, things get fuzzier. There's The Creeper and similar "has giant blood" types. There are Tengu, Garuda, Owlmen, and other "bird people"

Transhumans

Like Witches, I don't think there's really much need to have more of these. If you want to be a super hero, you can just be an Icarid, Fallen, or Reborn. That generally covers the kinds of super powers you'd want to have.

Other than that, I would want to have better and more explicit support for Asura and Mummies in In Media Res campaigns. Obviously, origin story isn't going to work well for them, but putting out the full band of special monsters you can play if and only if the other players are already playing monsters seems reasonable. The Mummy, the Asura, and presumably the Sidhe.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:44 pm

Would wuxia kungfu powers fit in the After Sundown setting? 'Cause all these animal folks remind me of period Kungfu movies where they're fighting vampires, ghosts, demons, animal demon vampires, and so on.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:33 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Anyway, on Spider people: spiders are awesome. They are creepy, and there are numerous examples of characters whose entire shtick is "has spider traits and powers". But I think it's a rather terrible fit for lycanthropes. Not as bad as Werecrows, but not terribly good. Even if you wanted to have them run around biting people and turning them into the same creature, it would be better to have spider Vampires or spider Demons or even spider Leviathans. Spider Vampires seems especially reasonable, considering that there is an actual "vampire spider" from Kenya.
-Username17

Yeah, that's why I was dithering so much on type. Mostly I was having a tricky time shoehorning Fortitude powers in when there was other stuff I definitely wanted them to do. I guess core discipline Fortitude and swapping out Abyss of the Body for Eyes of the Night would do fine.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:22 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Would wuxia kungfu powers fit in the After Sundown setting? 'Cause all these animal folks remind me of period Kungfu movies where they're fighting vampires, ghosts, demons, animal demon vampires, and so on.

Absolutely. Clinging lets you do the wall walking stuff from Wir Sind Die Nacht, but as a direct consequence you can do Wuxia wall running if you want.

Whipstitch wrote:Yeah, that's why I was dithering so much on type. Mostly I was having a tricky time shoehorning Fortitude powers in when there was other stuff I definitely wanted them to do. I guess core discipline Fortitude and swapping out Abyss of the Body for Eyes of the Night would do fine.

Speaking of Clinging, I would say the only thing that is super necessary for your Spider people is just that: Clinging. You can't be Spiderman (or Spider-anything) without being able to run on walls and stick to the ceiling. But of course, that's also Basic Clout and shoving that in to a starting package isn't difficult. Tongue of the Serpent seems likely. And they'd want some sort of "webbing" shtick, which could be as simple as having Solid Darkness or could be a new sorcerous path, or an alternate Advanced path on Song of Swarms (which they could get out of Small Witness without ever actually having a body colony).

-Username17

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:30 pm

Almaz wrote: As for Spider Vampires, we have Nosferatu. If my AS games didn't keep dying, I'd have already unleashed a spider-like Nosferatu on my players. Mostly to creep them out a lot.

Nosferatu are a great, iconic concept that totally deserved inclusion, but aside from bloodsucking with icky jaws* there really isn't anything there I want from my spider splat all that badly. They routinely zig when I want my spider people zag--they've got fuzzy pals instead of Call of the Swarm, Vigor instead of Clinging and Fortitude and Blood disciplines instead of disabling attacks or a war form. Plus, many spider concepts want to choose between Disloyal or Doomed Romance as Distinctive Flaws instead of Eerie Presence, because widow spiders are probably the most notorious creepy crawlies on earth, and that has as much to do with sexual cannibalism as it has to do with their potent venom. At the very least I'd want my spidery femme fatales to be able to use discretionary powers on grabbing Attract without feeling like it's a feat tax required just to offset the loathsome vibes they radiate.

*And note how that it's not even due to a power, it's just fluff.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:38 pm

Whipstitch wrote:
Almaz wrote: As for Spider Vampires, we have Nosferatu. If my AS games didn't keep dying, I'd have already unleashed a spider-like Nosferatu on my players. Mostly to creep them out a lot.
Nosferatu are a great, iconic concept that totally deserved inclusion, but aside from bloodsucking with icky jaws* there really isn't anything there I want from my spider splat all that badly. They routinely zig when I want my spider people zag--they've got fuzzy pals instead of Call of the Swarm, Vigor instead of Clinging and Fortitude and Blood disciplines instead of disabling attacks or a war form. Plus, many spider concepts want to choose between Disloyal or Doomed Romance as Distinctive Flaws instead of Eerie Presence, because widow spiders are probably the most notorious creepy crawlies on earth, and that has as much to do with sexual cannibalism as it has to do with their potent venom. At the very least I'd want my spidery femme fatales to be able to use discretionary powers on grabbing Attract without feeling like it's a feat tax required just to offset the loathsome vibes they radiate.

*And note how that it's not even due to a power, it's just fluff.

Hm, true. I concede your point! Excellently.

Disloyal would be better, in my opinion. It's the spider doing the backstabbing, not the other way around.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:59 am

So where would a wereswan fit? :3c

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:24 am

Koumei wrote:So where would a wereswan fit? :3c

In a fantasy kitchen sink (setting).

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:09 am

Bird people, along with a lot of other mythological concepts, were a problem for my own take on how to use After Sundown to organize and distribute the elements of Frank's "Fantasy Kitchensink" content as well.

For the most part; I broke down the AS creature types by their scientific taxonomy. For the most part that worked fairly well; gave me lots of trouble on how to place Minotaurs (as well as other ungulates, and ceteceans), and Primates. I didn't want "anything" that didn't fit somewhere else to "just be a Chimera and be done with it".

However, I was able to use that method as a way to eventually structure just about everything except for fungal and microbial life. Fungal I might make a part of Icarids/Doctors/Shaman, and I might place Reincarnated with Bacteria and Fallen/Lost with Archea. However, that's still in the air, as I've only recently started thinking about how to be totally inclusive of biological taxonomy, and don't really understand the differences in Archea and the alternates.

Which resulted in Birds, like all reptiles; to be classified as Strigoi; which I've decided to relabel Dragons (related to Dracula, the archetypal Vampire: Dragon; whose name meant "little dragon").

This doesn't mean that they can shape-change into birds; but that they are instead bird-people who I would have pre-arranged systems on how to structure as Extras or Luminaries.

Thematically, however it means that they can totally turn into a crocodile or snake or raven; and in a Fantasy Kitchensink setting there are totally Macaw people, Crow people, and Magpie people. They have physical appearance, and cultural, differences; but the engine handles them as the same between each other (they grow animals, but don't eat them; just their blood).

Before this, I was treating any of the entries in the Fantasy Kitchensink list as "purely aesthetics"; while having people create characters "as if they were humans"; because writing up 250+ stat modifiers is stupid, and doesn't add anything compared to having a standard character creation method where someone can just make a big, strong, Lapin, or an Ork wizard, without the game exploding, or shitting on a player's character concept.

And Koumei,

Yeah, totally in a Fantasy Kitchensink setting.

In my vision, Wereswans (or Swanmays) are also aloof blood-drinking cattle-keepers.

Their cattle, most likely being Behemoth swans, and their tribe's warbeast is a Kaiju Swan.

Mostly since I'm borrowing from Frank's "Dead Man's Hand", and everything is monsters, and even "normal humans" are only allowed to be Troglodyte spawn. Which is great at undermining the generally presented narrative of "humans are the best" (in almost every game engine). Making them into ravenous, or raging, mutants. Just like most humans.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:18 am

Almaz wrote: Disloyal would be better, in my opinion. It's the spider doing the backstabbing, not the other way around.

Tell that to the male spider. In all seriousness, I'm actually inclined to agree with you though, since the reasons for being Disloyal are so open to interpretation. After all, it would be easy to characterize spider monsters as skulking plotters prone to projecting their own paranoia and fatalism onto others--it's much easier to justify eating your friends when you already fear they may do the same to you.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:24 am

I ended up throwing Spiders, and other arthropods into Mi Go. Mileage may vary, but Vampire:Krakens were getting massive when I gave them "all aquatic non-vertebrates", and I didn't want to dilute "Squidheads", "Jellyfish people", and "Worm people" with "Spider Mans" or "Mosquito Lady".

downzorz · Post by **downzorz** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:43 pm

Master Passion Pride is something I offer. A Pride rampage looks like a histrionic person bitching everyone around them out, but with guns, swords, claws, and magic. I'm working on Elves that utilize Master Passion Pride, because if there's anything that Franks review of the Book of Elves taught me, it's that they think they are better than everyone else.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:39 pm

downzorz wrote:Master Passion Pride is something I offer. A Pride rampage looks like a histrionic person bitching everyone around them out, but with guns, swords, claws, and magic. I'm working on Elves that utilize Master Passion Pride, because if there's anything that Franks review of the Book of Elves taught me, it's that they think they are better than everyone else.

I could see adding extra Master Passions. I wouldn't want to just put in a seventh and go all Catholic histrionics, because that worked poorly in nWoD. One possibility is to go the full oWoD Natures and let people roll their own. That's extremely rife for stupidity and abuse, so maybe not. Another possibility would be to let people have subtypes of Master Passions. So you could have Rage (Pride) or Rage (Cruelty). I definitely don't want people to decide that:

Greed == Greed
Pride == Pride
Rage == Wrath
Hunger == Gluttony
Despair == Sloth
Loneliness == Lust
Fear == Envy

Because having justin Achilli shit bad Christian apologetics onto the page was painful to read, and also by the time you get to the end of that list the associations are almost comically bad. Are you supposed to be "envious" or fire and sharp objects? I don't think so.

So which would people rather see? 2-6 alternate Master Passions? Or Master Passion Specializations (which could probably be called "Obsessions")?

I've been thinking hard about how to make the Apemen don't incredibly offensive, since their existence sort of implies that you're calling whatever place they are from a group of subhuman monkey fuckers. Certainly, Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family is pretty amazingly racist by modern standards.

How about if the Bigfoot types were the descendants of people who ate the New World Sasquatches? They got the same deal that all Leviathan-eaters get: they turn into Leviathan (or at least, Mutants). There is already a name for that particular origin story: Wendigo.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:45 pm

That would work, and fixes the problem where trogs want to be molemen and Wendigo.